UKC

Right Wall Dinas Cromlech French Grade

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brothersoulshine 09 Nov 2010
If gear was a non issue, what french grade do you think Right Wall would get?
 IOAN D 09 Nov 2010
In reply to brothersoulshine: 6c+ ish depending on hight
brothersoulshine 09 Nov 2010
In reply to IOAN D:

It's reachy?
 Jonny2vests 09 Nov 2010
In reply to brothersoulshine:

6b+/c ish.
 IOAN D 09 Nov 2010
In reply to brothersoulshine: depends what your climbing is like and if its chalked e.t.c think what you want about the french grade, people will debate till the cows come home. But i have done it several times and that grade feels bout right. hard to put one on it thou.

enjoy

ioan
 JMarkW 10 Nov 2010
In reply to jonny2vests:

how do you know?
In reply to brothersoulshine:

Between 6b and 6c+ depending on the bullshit factor.

jcm
 Alun 10 Nov 2010
In reply to brothersoulshine:
This has been done to death, if you do search. The answers usually lie between 6b+ and 6c+.

I have only seconded it, and it felt around 6c, maybe 6c+.
 Jonny2vests 10 Nov 2010
In reply to Mark Westerman:
> (In reply to jonny2vests)
>
> how do you know?

Dave and you told me.
 Bill J 11 Nov 2010
In reply to thread:

While we're on the subject, what about Don't Slip Now, at Curbar?
 Aly 11 Nov 2010
In reply to Bill J:

>
> While we're on the subject, what about Don't Slip Now, at Curbar?

I dunno, F5+/6a? Easy but horrible landing.
 Mick Ward 11 Nov 2010
In reply to Aly:

Would have thought a bit harder. Agree, it's an horrendous landing. Thus the muttered exhortation to the first ascentionist.

Mick
 centurion05 11 Nov 2010
In reply to brothersoulshine:

The comments about it being easier than Resurrection i found were rubbish. I had flashed resurrection the week before but creamed off right wall. I'm pretty happy running it out above good gear so it wasnt that that got me. Going from the first to second girdle ledge was hard to read, but it was totally blank, no chalk.

In my opinion Resurrection: F6b/+ Right Wall: F6c/+

Centurion05
 Jonny2vests 11 Nov 2010
In reply to centurion05:

Fair enough. How tall are you mate?
 JMarkW 11 Nov 2010
In reply to jonny2vests:

> How tall are you mate?

recurring theme for you hey?
 NorthernRock 11 Nov 2010
In reply to brothersoulshine:

I just cannot see the point of the question. The grade is for the style it is climbed in, and I cannot see the relevance!

If bolts were a none issue, what grade would Raindogs be?
DaveJones 11 Nov 2010
In reply to NorthernRock:

> I just cannot see the point of the question. The grade is for the style it is climbed in, and I cannot see the relevance!

Really? Its not that tricky to grasp.

Right Wall - F6c+ & Flashdance - F6a

Both given E5 6a but quite different physical propositions. And a well protected E5 6a crack line will be physically even harder still. For longish routes it gives a pretty handy indication of whats involved. The relevance is that it describes overall how hard the actual climbing is. Eg an unfit climber with a steady head could easily do FD but quite possibly fail RW, but you can't tell that form the grade E5 6a alone.

> If bolts were a none issue, what grade would Raindogs be?

Not sure why a boltless Raindogs has anything to do with the above?

 centurion05 11 Nov 2010
In reply to jonny2vests:

i'm six foot.

to the guy about the relevance of the question. Its very relevant. I know i'll have to be going very well to onsight 7a on bolts, and extremely well to onsight a 7a route on trad, such as Positron or Warpath. But i was happy to go for right wall, because its about 6c/+ with two hands off rests, and flashdance is also worth going for if you know you can climb F6a/+

Centurion05
 Ian Jones 11 Nov 2010
In reply to centurion05:

An odd comment.
When I did these routes in 1983 the general view (from much better climbers than me) was that the last move on Resurrection was as hard as anything on those walls. So 6b+ is a bit mean.
 Alun 11 Nov 2010
In reply to DaveJones:
> The relevance is that it describes overall how hard the actual climbing is.

Indeed - I know more than one climber who's fallen off Flashdance, despite it being well within their technical 'comfort zone'.

I'd say it was more F6b than 6a, though. Although it depends how good at slabs you are.
 Alun 11 Nov 2010
In reply to The Purple Pimpernel:
> was that the last move on Resurrection was as hard as anything on those walls

Agreed - that's where I fell off, anyway!
 centurion05 11 Nov 2010
In reply to The Purple Pimpernel:

The moves up to the Porthole are harder than the last move on Resurrection (I'm talking about the left hand finish). The crack forking right from Left Wall is about 5c to a good rest by the spike, then a tough move, 6a, left using a pinch.

centurion05
 ksjs 11 Nov 2010
In reply to Alun: Hi Alun, shaken themselves off or actually fallen off? it is UK 6a so im guessing F6b has to be nearer the mark. i think you could probably give The Dervish 6a+/b and it'd make sense so Flashdance at F6b also has to be ok?
In reply to brothersoulshine: Assuming that this is an academic exercise and not a sports climber thinking of attempting it based on the answer I would say F6c. That does not mean that a purely sports climber operating at that grade, or above it for that matter, could safely lead it. I recall it being somewhat run out as it zig zags about at the start making even seconding a slightly more serious deal than normal.

Al
 ksjs 11 Nov 2010
In reply to The Purple Pimpernel: when you say last move are you talking left, middle or right finish - im assuming right (the one with the reach to the edge)?

ive only done the left finish but dont remember anything significantly harder on Resurrection than Right Wall. i do know that the heart in my mouth moment when i popped for the good hold when going left at the top of Resurrection would have felt very interesting indeed had i been looking at the same run out as that on the last section of Right Wall...
 ksjs 11 Nov 2010
In reply to centurion05: id agree that gaining the porthole is harder than that move left on Resurrection but i think the crack section (forking right) is the meat of Resurrection while going left at the end was one move to what was a good edge above bombproof gear and this was after a good rest around the spike. id give the crack 5c/6a and the move left 5b/c.
 Alun 11 Nov 2010
In reply to ksjs:
> Hi Alun, shaken themselves off or actually fallen off? it is UK 6a so im guessing F6b has to be nearer the mark. i think you could probably give The Dervish 6a+/b and it'd make sense so Flashdance at F6b also has to be ok?

Hey Keith, "shaken themselves off" is exactly what I meant, I think - for more details you'll have to ask Jo... heehee!

Personally I'd call Flashdance F6b+, but many people think it's easier than that.
 NorthernRock 11 Nov 2010
In reply to DaveJones:

The point I am trying to make is the E56a is the grade, because thats how its climbed.

It is not climbed with bolts, therefore why try to give it a sports grade.

If you want to know how sustained, or how pumpy, then read the description in the guide.

All it does, is tell you that many people can climb 6c/6c+, but not that many have the bollocks to climb Right Wall, even though it should be within their technical/physical ability.

Raindogs has nothing to do with it as a route, I just picked an 8a out of the air, and suggested that we try and grade that with English grades. The point is......you cant......because its bolted. Say you could place gear at every bolt position, whats the grade then? Meaningless. E6 7a?
 centurion05 11 Nov 2010
In reply to NorthernRock:
> (In reply to DaveJones)
>
> >
> It is not climbed with bolts, therefore why try to give it a sports grade.
>
> If you want to know how sustained, or how pumpy, then read the description in the guide.
>

its good to be given a sports grade to know how hard it is! simple as that, a single low 6a move with a f*ck off run out (same as flashdance) is still E5 6a, a standard 6a move with good gear but spaced (Right Wall) is again E5 6a. But the dificulty of the climbing is totally different. I like knowing the physical difficulty of a route as an additional grade.

Centurion05
DaveJones 11 Nov 2010
In reply to NorthernRock:

I fear your not going to understand this since it was put quite simply by a few people before, but I'll try...

> The point I am trying to make is the E56a is the grade, because thats how its climbed.

Correct.

> It is not climbed with bolts, therefore why try to give it a sports grade.

For the reasons stated above - it helps describe the nature of the climbing in a way the above grade doesn't. Reread some posts, I'm not typing it out again as it was put quite simply before.

> If you want to know how sustained, or how pumpy, then read the description in the guide.

You can do that too, often that doesn't tell you how pumpy a route is just where it goes. Whats your objection to knowing both?

> All it does, is tell you that many people can climb 6c/6c+, but not that many have the bollocks to climb Right Wall, even though it should be within their technical/physical ability.

You're definitely confused now. It tells you nothing of the sort. It tells you that RW is about 6c/+ which is completely unrelated to anyone's bollocks. In fact why even mention them, have you caught the trad/sport superiority bug that seems all the rage round here?

> Raindogs has nothing to do with it as a route, I just picked an 8a out of the air, and suggested that we try and grade that with English grades. The point is......you cant......because its bolted. Say you could place gear at every bolt position, whats the grade then? Meaningless. E6 7a?

Ummm, here you show some ignorance I think. E can be for effort as well as danger etc. And sport routes used to be given E grades prior to the adoption of the french grade for sport routes.

Raindogs has no really desperate moves, just plenty of tricky ones, thus something like E7 6b may well fit the bill. I can't remember what grade it had before sport grades were used exclusively. Other more bouldery 8a's will have had grades along the lines of E7 6c, thus having harder moves but less sustained. So no I wouldn't say meaningless, though probably less helpful than using the font system do describe the nature of a crux sequence.

I'd also add that sport grades for trad routes only really become much use around the mid extremes. Below that then F4/F5 etc don't really tell you too much so, IMO.

 TobyA 11 Nov 2010
In reply to NorthernRock: Have you climbed outside of the UK? It's quite normal to use French grades (they aren't "sport grades") on trad pitches.
1
 nigel pearson 11 Nov 2010
In reply to brothersoulshine: Whilst it is quite interesting to try work out what French grade a trad climb is, I am not sure that it really is that useful or actually adds anything.

Several comments seem to be using the French grade as a sign of how sustained the climbing is, whereas if fact it refers to the overall physical difficulty; thus a route with one very hard move with the remainder of the climbing much easier can get the same French Grade as one with sustained series of moves which in themselves are not that hard. So a climber with good endurance may be able to onsight the second and not the first whilst a good boulder may do better with the first example. However the grade itself does not tell you which type of climb it is.

Also in my experience there often great variation in French grading from country to country, region to region, between different rocktypes and even within one climbing area.

Thus what you really need to say that it is a bouldery (b) or sustained (s) route with a grade of F6c+ using the Portland cuttings grading (PC) as a hypothetical example. Giving you a final grade of say F6c+ sPC. You may wish also to give your height and ape index to further refine it.

DaveJones 11 Nov 2010
In reply to nigel pearson:
> (In reply to brothersoulshine) Whilst it is quite interesting to try work out what French grade a trad climb is, I am not sure that it really is that useful or actually adds anything.

Other than whats been stated above, remembering it becomes more relevant as the grade increases? E5 can cover a sport range from F6a to F7b - for E5 6a & E5 6b - that's quite some range of physical difficulty indicated by the change of 1 letter. I think a sport grade adds some information. If you don't, and I don't mean this badly, then I suspect its due to ignorance though a lack of experience.

> Several comments seem to be using the French grade as a sign of how sustained the climbing is, whereas if fact it refers to the overall physical difficulty; thus a route with one very hard move with the remainder of the climbing much easier can get the same French Grade as one with sustained series of moves which in themselves are not that hard. So a climber with good endurance may be able to onsight the second and not the first whilst a good boulder may do better with the first example. However the grade itself does not tell you which type of climb it is.

See what I said above, some routes that are bouldery may be better described by a combo of trad + font grade, whereas others that are more sustained eg RW fit better a trad + sport grade.

> Also in my experience there often great variation in French grading from country to country, region to region, between different rocktypes and even within one climbing area.

But we're in the UK so we can stick to that - its not *that* variable here, so long as we're not benchmarking on Kalymnos then I think it still works.


 Aly 11 Nov 2010
In reply to DaveJones:
> So no I wouldn't say meaningless, though probably less helpful than using the font system do describe the nature of a crux sequence.


This reads a bit like you think that the french grade and the font grade are the same thing (which they're not of course), and that the french grade describes the crux sequence rather than the route as a whole (which it doesn't). I'm sure it's just the way it's been typed/typo but thought that might be worth clarifying for others.
 NorthernRock 11 Nov 2010
In reply to DaveJones:

I'll look in my 89 limestone guide for the English grade.

@toby. Australia uses Ewbank? I think, which just gives one number. Grade 20 is the benchmark that everyone likes to reach, like our E1, however this could stretch from E1 5a, all the way to E2/3 5c. I climbed a fair few 20s yet some were short pumpy desperate, some were technical, and some were run out slabs, yet the grade was the same. This could be argued that it gave the technical grade of the climbing, however no adjectival grade, meant you looked at it like a sports route, and hoped the gear was good!

 Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator 11 Nov 2010
In reply to NorthernRock:
> (In reply to DaveJones)
>
> I'll look in my 89 limestone guide for the English grade.
>
> @toby. Australia uses Ewbank? I think, which just gives one number. Grade 20 is the benchmark that everyone likes to reach, like our E1, however this could stretch from E1 5a, all the way to E2/3 5c. I climbed a fair few 20s yet some were short pumpy desperate, some were technical, and some were run out slabs, yet the grade was the same. This could be argued that it gave the technical grade of the climbing, however no adjectival grade, meant you looked at it like a sports route, and hoped the gear was good!


How could it give 'the technical grade' when the examples you mention run from 5a to 5c?

Chris (never been to Oz)
DaveJones 11 Nov 2010
In reply to Aly:

> This reads a bit like you think that the french grade and the font grade are the same thing (which they're not of course), and that the french grade describes the crux sequence rather than the route as a whole (which it doesn't). I'm sure it's just the way it's been typed/typo but thought that might be worth clarifying for others.

Ooops. Yeah, it does read confusingly, writing's never been a strong point...

I was trying to say that a supplementary E + tech grade for a sport route, while not meaningless, is no where near as helpful as say a font grade describing the crux sequence. I guess due fact that so much difficulty is covered by the very broad spectrum of 'british 6c'. Anyway this is all a bit of a tangent to the original point!


In reply to DaveJones: I quite like the idea of making the E and E for effort, applying the UK technical grade and suffixing that with another digit to show protection and applying that to both sport and trad. A typically bolted F6b sport route would get something like E1 or E2, 5c, 0 for example. A poorly bolted route might warrant a 1.

Al
David A-J 11 Nov 2010
In reply to brothersoulshine: Its a fun thing to do on these wet autumn days. As a sport climb, it would defintely have a belay on the girdle ledge as that's a hands off picnic rest. Presuming there were bolts where the gear placements are - which ain't too many and are very easy to place - In tough sport grading areas like Saussois in France is would be 6a+ or 6b, high up on a flat wall in the Verdon - would get 6c or 6c+ for sure, or perhaps even 7a. Sport grading all over the world tends to be so varied that it makes the comparrison irrelevant. Just bolt it up and see what people give it!
 nigel pearson 11 Nov 2010
In reply to DaveJones:
I do think it is quite an entertaining pastime for a wet autumn day or in the pub. It is just that Trad leading feels such a different experience to sport leading that I am not sure how relevant it is.

Can I return the complement and, very kindly, suspect that your view may also be based on ignorance and lack of experience (of course I have no evidence of this but I thought it would be a nice thing to say).
 Mick Ward 11 Nov 2010
In reply to nigel pearson:
> (In reply to DaveJones)

> Can I return the complement and, very kindly, suspect that your view may also be based on ignorance and lack of experience (of course I have no evidence of this but I thought it would be a nice thing to say).

I suspect that this is not the case.

Mick

 Rich Guest 11 Nov 2010
In reply to brothersoulshine:

All this crap/disputed/vague beta must be making your head hurt!
 Adam Lincoln 11 Nov 2010
In reply to brothersoulshine:

All you need to know is that when you are a bit gripped, trying to fiddle the awkward gear in, the french grade will go out the window!
In reply to DaveJones:

Hi Dave, can you register please if you want to keep posting.

Thanks

Alan
In reply to Adam Lincoln:

Correct!

jcm
 NorthernRock 11 Nov 2010
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
> (In reply to brothersoulshine)
>
> All you need to know is that when you are a bit gripped, trying to fiddle the awkward gear in, the french grade will go out the window!

Damn well said dear boy!
 ksjs 11 Nov 2010
In reply to Alun: yeah, Jo mentioned he wasnt too far from the ground when he fell! im really keen for this at some point but imagine it will require firing on all cylinders mentally to stay with it.

hope all good in Catalunya - high winds in North Wales tonight (and i think much of the UK)...
 Hugh Cottam 11 Nov 2010
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

What would Apples taste like if they were Oranges?
silo 11 Nov 2010
In reply to Adam Lincoln: spot on right wall is pumpy!

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