UKC

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/12/petzl-nomic-and-ergodanger-danger-w...

In reply to Dane1:

Let's hope they handle the recall as well as DMM did with their size 6 Dragon recall.

In reply to Dane1:

mmmmm...after such little use, makes me wonder about the r&d and testing process. this is basic stuff. i stand by petzl too, but this isnt good.

the sarken recall they did ok with broadcasting and getting swapped stuff out (where i am at least).
tho 2 serious mishaps with ice gear in 4 (5 maybe) years....

cheers for posting that dane.

In reply to Dane1: Ooops.. What is the solution going to be except for a completely new pommel.

In reply to ColdWill:

I don't see one. And what they really need to do it go back and redesign the shaft end as well while they are there and make the system much stronger while adding a USEFUL umbilical attachment.

It is going to be a big deal.

In reply to Dane1:

only if you think you might drop an axe!

In reply to Dane1: Many thanks for pointing this out, I think I will send mine back and wait for a proper solution rather than botching with resin and split pins. Or maybe get a set of Fusions instead. This looks like it will be a real pain in the proverbial when it goes.

In reply to Dane1:

Anyway not sure i quite follow, if one does not make any mods to attach umbilicals is it still an issue?

In reply to Morgan Woods:

It has nothing to do with the umbilical attachment...new pommel set up is simply a poor design and too weak for the intended purpose on the new Nomic and Ergo. How this made it past QC at Petzl is beyond me.

Makes the BD stuff look pretty good at the moment.

In reply to Dane1:

and my dmm rebels too....just a very simple robust spike that sits below the level of the bottom of your hand.

In reply to Dane1:

im amazed they changed from the old one. aside from the hammer (which was done better by 'others' anyway, and a little bit of orange rubber, its been bugger all other than this failure.

come on petzl you can do better.

meanwhile im still salivating over my old nomics going into their 3rd season.

In reply to ice.solo:


Here as well but going on 4 seasons and never a bobble on my original Nomic. Gear was unavailable or shipped in small numbers and now we find not up to the task. Of course it has to be during the best winter season in years.

In reply to Dane1:

ok . I dont fully understand the problem becouse I havent got my first Nomic yet (but have already placed order in the shop)
Will some one tell me like I'm a 6 yo child?
Whats wrong with the new Nomic? And do I have to worry that I have bought my first pair of new Nomics and they have production failure so they will not do their job or will be broken after first seson??
Thanks in advance

In reply to mike.gore:

Pommel has three size adjustement. Climbing on the Nomic is dependant on the pommel fitting your hand. Too big it doesn't offer enough support. Too small and you can't get your hand into the grip. Pommels is required to stay put to protect your hand when swinging and offer solid support while climbing leashless.

Problem is the 3 position adjustments are stripping out. When this happens it will no longer protect your hand while swinging. Stripped it can be too big and it offers no support.

It is a big deal. Worse is that instead of wrecking a $15 part that can easily be replaced, it is instead wrecking the $300 tool shaft.

In reply to Dane1:

Here is a short term fix until Petzl comes up with something better.

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/12/quick-fix-for-new-nomic-or-ergo-pom...

In reply to Dane1:

Is the problem a combination of faults in the two new parts (shaft and pommel), or just due to the new pommel design? I ask because I was thinking of putting the new pommel (which seems to be slightly more comfortable for the heel of the palm - more like the shape of that on the newer Fusions) on some old axes, but am having second thoughts after reading your blog.

Which, I might add, UKCers should collectively award some sort of prize for services to mountaineering - ypu spend your money so we don't have to!

In reply to nufkin:


Combination of things. The smaller surface interface internally between shaft and pommel, the single 3mm stainless tooth on a 6mm aluminum shaft and the added stress of the new pommels angle as it hits the ice but most importantly the added stress the serrated stainless blade adds to the pommel. The pommels is no longer allowed to move around on the ice as in the older Nomic. The blade works very well making the shaft more secure in each placement. It is a major improvement on the original Nomic imo.

But it simply isn't reliable yet.

>I ask because I was thinking of putting the new pommel (which seems to be >slightly more comfortable for the heel of the palm)... but am having >second thoughts after reading your blog.

I was thinking the same thing. But now knowing the differences and how the new pommels added additional stress to the part by design I will not be adding the new pommels to my older tools. Too easy to screw up your shaft with that single stainless tooth in the new pommel bashing away on the shaft.


Thanks very much. It is a nice thing to say. My idea is to get the best info out on the gear I find useful in the fastest way possible. The hard copy climbing magazines make a profit by selling advertizing. Because of that their content and their reviews are in one way or another always swayed by their ad accounts. Mine aren't. It is just my opinion fwiw.

In reply to Dane1:

This is great news for some of us at least.

I was about to give my old Nomics to a jumble sale and get new ones as they don't have orange bits on the handle and were no longer cool.

Thankfully old Nomics are now the pros choice once again and I can continue gibbering my way up grade II gullies, top-roping classic grit routes and walking round Llanberis with them strapped to my POD black ice then driving up and down the pass in my Skoda Octavia estate looking for a parking spot.

Anyone I see with new Nomics I will remind several times that they are fools and should have old ones like ME!!!

Yessss Winner!!

In reply to Dane1:


They're worth a lot - based on real experiences, and you're on here to discuss things in person. Keep it up.

In reply to Dane1: Dane another thank you for your blog and also for your informative replies to a lot of subjects.

Unfortunately (by the sounds of it) I have got the new nomics. I got them because my old style nomics got damaged in a car crash (not my fault!) and thought I might as well just get the most up to date version. Do you know if Petzl have said anymore about a modification or recall? It sounds like something needs to happen and if it isn't soon then they'll probably not get it done for this season, making them an expensive waste of money. I haven't been able to use mine yet but have fitted the hammer and got a scratch on them, so can't really return them. If this is going to happen then i'll probably not use them and just stick with my old quarks.

Really though you would of thought this issue would of been noticed on 'extensive' field testing.

Col

In reply to colk1000:

Ueli Steck is so fast his tools don't have time to make surface contact

In reply to Djupnes:

I had a good conversaion with Petzl NA yesterday. Bottom line is they (Petzl France or Petzl NA) will warrenty any broken tools. I say use the sheet out of them and if the break..get a new pair. Petzl is so jammed up trying to deliver tools and having a hard time of it because of a lack of steel for the picks, the pommels likely just slipped through.

Yesterday was a total surprise to Petzl NA as they had not seen the problem and some of their guys (here in NA) have been on the newest tools for a full 9 months now. I believe that.

But funny how we can break them in a couple weeks time and none of the sponsored climbers have had the smae issue. They must climb faster and be more gentle or something.

I don't see a easy fix or a fix this winter. The warrenty issue is going to hurt Petzl...only thing worse is not being able to sell all the faulty tools that are about to hit the market end of this month or early January.

I was about to canel my order but decided to stay the course once I was assured the tools would be fixed or warrentied or both at some point. They are good enough to put up with some problems in the short term I think. I may change my mind once I bust my first pair on a climb in the middle of no where though.

In reply to Dane1: Can we put the old pommel on the new tool?

In reply to Dane1:
They are good enough to put up with some problems in the short term I think. I may change my mind once I bust my first pair on a climb in the middle of no where though.

Quite. I don't think you'll find the warranty of much comfort if you end up breaking your axe half way up psychedelic wall.

I really don't know how this industry goes about assuring the reliability of mission critical equipment but failures like this happen on a regular if infrequent basis. They need to get their act together and come up with some sort of international set of test specs which are effective in rooting out design and processing faults.

In reply to ColdWill:

Yes but it is the shaft that needs to be fixed with better and bigger "gears". The old pommel only fits in a super large hand size.....which will likely fit no one. It is way too big for me with even a very warm glove.

In reply to Dane1: I have a pair of new Nomics on loan and they already show wear on the shaft exactly like yours. They were set up on medium when I got them - I put them on large setting so I think the noticeable wear on this position has come from 3 days climbing I've done with them! The medium position is already almost worn out.

In reply to graham F: Meant to say - it would be possible design a new pommel using a thicker piece of metal - the tooth could be twice as wide, which would reduce the wear rate. It looks to me like the pommel tooth and serrated "spike" is different metal to the shaft, as there's no wear on the pommel tooth. Obviously all too late for a worn axe though. I also considered drilling and fitting a second bolt in the pommel, but that would weaken it.

In reply to graham F:

sounds like the most reasonable solution though why not design them with two bolts to start with as a steel/aluminium interface like there is now is not going to be very strong. I'd assume it'd void your warranty though

Mine have started to show wear on the underside of first and second cog counting from the bottom. Since I have mine set for large I doubt they'll ever wear through that bit but plunging it I suspect quite soon the pommel will be free to move up to medium position. Wear on the second tooth is a bit weird and must be when the axes was transported to and from the shop as the first thing I did was set it for large hands. Time to send Lyon an email I think, especially considering they have only been up two welsh ice routes

In reply to Dane1: Should be interesting to see what happens with this!

In reply to Dane1:

For info: http://www.petzl.com/en/page/support-frequently-asked-questions-faq-0#cinq

Petzl products are guaranteed for three years against any defects in materials or manufacture.
To analyze defects in materials and manufacture, contact our After-Sales Service to get the address to which you should return the defective product in your country.
Exclusions from the guarantee:

* normal wear
* oxidation
* leaking batteries in headlamps
* modifications or alterations
* poor storage
* poor maintenance
* damage due to accident or negligence
* damage due to use of product for which it is not designed

The Petzl guarantee also does not apply if:

* the serial number is no longer legible
* any label has been removed from a harness
* a helmet has been written on with a marker or covered by stickers
* the product has been modified or repaired by a third person

If the product is covered by the guarantee, and is reparable, it will be repaired immediately and quickly returned to you. Irreparable products will be replaced.
If the product is not under guarantee, but is reparable, a repair quote will be proposed before repair. You will not be billed without your consent.
After analysis, Petzl will decide to repair, replace or return the product as is to the address you have provided. For a headlamp, please remove the batteries before sending it.

In reply to Hannes:

Good stuff gentlemen. We need the wear and failure documentation in public. Petzl NA said they have not seen the issue on their early production tools that have been in use since last Jan 2010. But four of us already have some serious wear on tools with one failure.

I suspect every "new" tool is likely to fail with little aftual use.

The upside is Petzl NA at least has promised to replace any tool that fails. AS LONG AS YOU DON'T MODIFY IT. It is going to be a major financial hit to Petzl no doubt. The long over due late deliveries on the new tools may actually save them here ...as they have a chance to fix this before the tools leave France. I'd rather have a reliable tool than get one now that we know will fial in use even if that means missing a few month of climbing on them.

Pray Petzl is listening.

In reply to Dane1:

Just to report another case - heard about this today, and quickly checked the condition of my axes - only been used for few times, some wear is already visible (been using the M setting).

I think recall will be the only possibility, as eventually all axes with the current design will be worn out, and hence replaced (and it won't take long). Too bad for us who only have these axes, it's surely doesn't look good for the season's climbing...

In reply to Dane1:

This is Daniel, the owner of the tools in Dane's photos. I just wanted to add that Rick V. at Petzl NA has been super great in helping me with getting a new set of tools on warranty. The guys at Petzl have been super helpful and understanding and have really done a great job with giving good Customer Service. I know they are actively looking into the issue and trying to figure out if this is an isolated issue or a larger issue. I sent the tools back yesterday and they should have them no later than Monday next week so I am sure their will be more to come it the future.

Daniel Harro

In reply to Dane1:

I wouldn't say mine is serious but it is far more than I'm happy with after just two routes and descents

Definitely hope they listen

In reply to Hannes: The handles are rated to 150daN so this might be tested in the factory.

In reply to ColdWill:

That is = to 200# right? No doubt it will hold 200# of dead weight but it is the typical pounding of every swing that beats the stainless 3mm pommel "pin" through the aluminum shaft notches.

In reply to Dane1:

This actually happened to one of my old Nomics, luckily only training inside so no harm done but it was the weirdest feeling when the bottom handle started slowly opening on me. Lyons repaired it foc but Petzl accepted no responsibility for the fault, I was told they had never had this problem before. The same thing happened to one of my mates Nomics about a month after, he was told the same.
Bill

In reply to Dane1: just checked mine, the same things happening as well and they have only been used on 6 mixed routes, I tried to get them refunded and/or replaced at the shop I bought them from and lyon ( the uk importers ) but both said that they weren't offering replacements or refunds until petzl had investigated it?. But they were both aware that it was a manufacturing fault so surely in terms of getting a refund thats all that matters?. I think im going to try get a refund and just buy the 2010 model. Has anyone in the uk had any luck getting theirs refunded/replaced?!!

In reply to Ginger McGrath:

The Nomics are clearly not fit for their intended purpose, If you don't get a full refund then take the matter up with Trading Standards.

In reply to Ginger McGrath:

Here's a link that should help to explain your rights:

http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/after_you_buy/know-your-rights/SGAknowyour...

I can understand the retailer have their hands tied until Petzl gives the official recall notice - which is something that should come quickly, we are in the middle of a great season, and stuck with tools you can't rely on. Makes me consider jumping to another brand, if they cannot resolve this really quick.

In reply to Dane1:

So if someone bought a Nomic now, like the one that is being advertised on the sidebar of this page as I am typing this, they could expect the handle to break?

Have I got that right?

In reply to Bill Davidson: To Dane1: I meant the limited damage that people are seeing on first inspection on new tools could be as a result of testing at the factory, a sign of things to come.
To bill: Was it the pommel that sheared on your old Nomics or the shaft.

In reply to Dane1:

you never know. when petzl recalled the sarkens they offered several choices including a set of darts or dartwins instead.

could end up with a pair of nice new ergos

unless theyre f*cked too.

In reply to ice.solo:

Same problem with them unfortunately

In reply to ice.solo:



I have no doubt Petzl will make it right once they figure out how they want to accomplish that....an option of Ergo, Nomic or Quark would be a fun option. But the pommel issue will need to be addressed on the Nomic and Ergo first.

Petzl NA just today got the first pair of damaged tools (Daniel's) that were pictured on the blog. So it is going to be awhile yet before a decision is made.

My Ergos and Daniel's were dinged from use not factory testing. I know that because I took them both apart when new to rig umbilicals.

In reply to Hannes:

damn!

In reply to mike.gore: in summary the pommel falls of, leaving you pumped and F**ked half way up your dream pitch

In reply to ColdWill:

It was the pommel, just weighted it on a lock off & it started to open on me. They did replace it foc but accepted no responsibility

In reply to Dane1:

So you're saying that the Nomics that are on sale in the shops just now still have the design defect and can still fail, yes?

In reply to Removed User:
That is what is said and confirmed yes (not by Petzl yet)

In reply to Djupnes:

http://www.petzl.com/en/outdoor/news/products-news-0/2010/12/21/information...

It is now, action and replacement being offered. In the interim a bit of a pain in the butt though.

S

In reply to sasmojo:

Being a caver as well as a climber, I have a lot of Petzl gear and I've always held the brand in high regard. Now while it's really good to see Petzl responding quickly to this issue, the solution is far from satisfactory IMO. Let's focus on what they're actually proposing:-


<<< "Petzl has developed a solution to reinforce the GRIPREST, which permanently fixes it in the position of your choice (S, M, or L). This procedure will be expedited to reduce any interruption to your climbing season. Because this solution eliminates the ability to adjust the grip's size, we will replace your tools with redesigned versions of the NOMIC or ERGO once they are available in autumn 2011.

Warranty procedure

Anyone with a damaged NOMIC or ERGO or who has concerns about the durability of the GRIPREST adjustment system, is encouraged to contact the Petzl distributor in their country or return the tools to the store from which they were purchased for further information about the warranty procedure. You will be provided with directions on what to do next, as well as an estimated time to modify your tools and have them returned to you." >>>


Replacements won't be available for almost 12 months(!!) and it's obvious that the temporary factory repair/ modification turn-around time is going to be significant. What are you supposed to do in the meantime?

I'll be honest; my faith in the brand's been shaken and I wouldn't now even consider buying a pair of the new Nomics. I'd either be waiting for the Autumn 2011 replacements to come on the market or, far more likely, I'd be beating a path to BD's door with cash in hand, puke-green shafts or not.

Talk about Petzl shooting themselves in the foot.... I'm amazed! I'm also quietly relieved that I recently bought a new pair of old Nomics in preference to the new version - simply because I thought the orange piping on the new ones looked a bit naff. Clearly, this wasn't the only thing that was naff about them!

Dave

In reply to Dave Williams:

I think it's a great deal. Get tools now, use and abuse for a season, get a new set in 10 months from now.

There will be an official notice from Lyon Equipment and Petzl published at UKClimbing.com either today or tomorrow.

Until then this thread is closed.

Mick Ryan