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Fuel a record high and what are we, the nation, doing about it?
By being British, closing our eyes and not causing a fuss. How high must fuel prices rise before demonstrations begin?
£2 per litre, even £5 or never?
By being British, closing our eyes and not causing a fuss. How high must fuel prices rise before demonstrations begin?
£2 per litre, even £5 or never?
In reply to The Lemming:
once it hits the next significant milestone. Not sure what that would be though, maybe £2 then prices will drop for a bit before creeping back to wait for the next big milestone.
> By being British, closing our eyes and not causing a fuss. How high must fuel prices rise before demonstrations begin?
once it hits the next significant milestone. Not sure what that would be though, maybe £2 then prices will drop for a bit before creeping back to wait for the next big milestone.
In reply to The Lemming:
you're absolutely right
first of all lets burn loads of coal to speed up global warming and counter the market effect all the cold weather in Europe is having on oil prices at the moment
Then we could invade all those pesky arab countries and take control of their oil
Also lets shut down the NHS so we dont have to tax petrol any more
Also although there's no point we could mimick our brave French cousins and blocakade ports, airports and motorways and piss off everybody with no benefit
My vote is find something more important to whinge about
you're absolutely right
first of all lets burn loads of coal to speed up global warming and counter the market effect all the cold weather in Europe is having on oil prices at the moment
Then we could invade all those pesky arab countries and take control of their oil
Also lets shut down the NHS so we dont have to tax petrol any more
Also although there's no point we could mimick our brave French cousins and blocakade ports, airports and motorways and piss off everybody with no benefit
My vote is find something more important to whinge about
In reply to The Lemming:
Factoring the costs of fuel into our budgets, and planning on minimising car use, and driving as economically as possible?
If you seriously think that fuel costs are going to decrease, then you are living in la-la land.
Yes, the UK could decrease fuel tax, but the money would then have to go onto income tax, and the base cost of fuel is going to go up and up and up regardless.
For those who voted for the tax cutting Conservative Party, VAT goes up to 20% on January 4th 2011
... and fuel prices are expected to go up by rather more than just the VAT rise as fuel stations will reckon that they can simultaneously add a little bit of their own, and people will blame it on the VAT rise, and whinge at the government, and not them profiteering...
> Fuel a record high and what are we, the nation, doing about it?
Factoring the costs of fuel into our budgets, and planning on minimising car use, and driving as economically as possible?
If you seriously think that fuel costs are going to decrease, then you are living in la-la land.
Yes, the UK could decrease fuel tax, but the money would then have to go onto income tax, and the base cost of fuel is going to go up and up and up regardless.
For those who voted for the tax cutting Conservative Party, VAT goes up to 20% on January 4th 2011
... and fuel prices are expected to go up by rather more than just the VAT rise as fuel stations will reckon that they can simultaneously add a little bit of their own, and people will blame it on the VAT rise, and whinge at the government, and not them profiteering...
In reply to The Lemming:
Fuel due to go up 2p + the vat % increase on top of that. I reckon in will be close to £1.30 p litre soon. (Based on Asda Preston price)
Fuel due to go up 2p + the vat % increase on top of that. I reckon in will be close to £1.30 p litre soon. (Based on Asda Preston price)
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
It's already well over that in some parts of Scotland.
> Fuel due to go up 2p + the vat % increase on top of that. I reckon in will be close to £1.30 p litre soon. (Based on Asda Preston price)
It's already well over that in some parts of Scotland.
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
That's about what I pay for petrol here in Germany. I just get annyed at how it varies up to 10c within a week. It makkes trying to buy fuel cheaply a complete lottery.
Tim
That's about what I pay for petrol here in Germany. I just get annyed at how it varies up to 10c within a week. It makkes trying to buy fuel cheaply a complete lottery.
Tim
In reply to kevin stephens:
Yes the price of fule is not important at all.
I do a minimum of 500 miles a week in a fully loaded transit van and the cost of the fuel is passed on to my customers.
Thank you to anyone who uses water out if a tap in yorkshire. Anyone who uses electricity and anyone who buys or uses any go the goods that the factories produce who pay me to maintain their machinery.
When you can no longer afford to run your cars you will still be paying for me to run mine. I hope you get a warm fuzzy feeling about that but I can understand if you don't as like you say it is not important.
Ps their are hundreds of thousands of people like me all indirectly charging the rest of you and pushing up the price of everything that you buy but it is not important.
>
>
> My vote is find something more important to whinge about
>
> My vote is find something more important to whinge about
Yes the price of fule is not important at all.
I do a minimum of 500 miles a week in a fully loaded transit van and the cost of the fuel is passed on to my customers.
Thank you to anyone who uses water out if a tap in yorkshire. Anyone who uses electricity and anyone who buys or uses any go the goods that the factories produce who pay me to maintain their machinery.
When you can no longer afford to run your cars you will still be paying for me to run mine. I hope you get a warm fuzzy feeling about that but I can understand if you don't as like you say it is not important.
Ps their are hundreds of thousands of people like me all indirectly charging the rest of you and pushing up the price of everything that you buy but it is not important.
In reply to Franco Cookson:
Its illegal Franco. For using in normal vehicles. If the police catch you they will take the car off you.
> (In reply to The Lemming)
>
> Red diesel and that. Innit.
>
> Red diesel and that. Innit.
Its illegal Franco. For using in normal vehicles. If the police catch you they will take the car off you.
In reply to The Lemming:
The price of fuel is getting silly! It cost me almost £90 to fill my BMW last time!
J
The price of fuel is getting silly! It cost me almost £90 to fill my BMW last time!
J
In reply to Dax H:
yes it's called economics. Seriously other than my flippant suggestions how would you suggest the world market fuel prices are reduced. What should the govt tax instead?
yes it's called economics. Seriously other than my flippant suggestions how would you suggest the world market fuel prices are reduced. What should the govt tax instead?
In reply to The Lemming:
The way i look at it is the more it costs, the less people will be able to afford to run their cars. Less people on the roads.
The way i look at it is the more it costs, the less people will be able to afford to run their cars. Less people on the roads.
In reply to kevin stephens:
Such as?
What about the price of Coleman fuel in the UK. I saw the small tin (half a litre I think) for 6.99 last weekend!! Ten times the price of unleaded petrol.
> My vote is find something more important to whinge about
Such as?
What about the price of Coleman fuel in the UK. I saw the small tin (half a litre I think) for 6.99 last weekend!! Ten times the price of unleaded petrol.
In reply to The Lemming:
"Fuel a record high and what are we, the nation, doing about it?"
Not to mention heating oil prices!!! Gone from circa 45p a litre in June to 75p in Dec!! GULP!
"Fuel a record high and what are we, the nation, doing about it?"
Not to mention heating oil prices!!! Gone from circa 45p a litre in June to 75p in Dec!! GULP!
In reply to kevin stephens:
The recent rise in oil prices is not caused by supply (ample) or demand (still low).
The US authorities are looking at combating speculation.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-12-16/cftc-delays-consideration-of-propo...
Not sure what the british/european authorities are doing?
The recent rise in oil prices is not caused by supply (ample) or demand (still low).
The US authorities are looking at combating speculation.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-12-16/cftc-delays-consideration-of-propo...
Not sure what the british/european authorities are doing?
In reply to The Lemming: We've been living in a fools paradise for decades.
In years to come when the oil has runout (remember, its a finite resource?) future generations will look back at the way we squandered the most precious and useful resource on the planet and wonder what on earth we were playing at.
We belong to one of only a small number of generations who will have benefited from the enormous privelige of cheap personal transport. Enjoy it while you can because in the grand scheme of things it won't last for much longer.
In years to come when the oil has runout (remember, its a finite resource?) future generations will look back at the way we squandered the most precious and useful resource on the planet and wonder what on earth we were playing at.
We belong to one of only a small number of generations who will have benefited from the enormous privelige of cheap personal transport. Enjoy it while you can because in the grand scheme of things it won't last for much longer.
In reply to wilding:
have you seen the price of it?plus it's not rally any good if you want to drive long distance.
I've just paid 125.9 for diesel in west yorks,the most I've eve paid is 128.9 for shell v-power a few years ago.
> (In reply to pec)
>
> ??
> What about battery technology and the new nissan leaf?
>
> ??
> What about battery technology and the new nissan leaf?
have you seen the price of it?plus it's not rally any good if you want to drive long distance.
I've just paid 125.9 for diesel in west yorks,the most I've eve paid is 128.9 for shell v-power a few years ago.
In reply to The Lemming:
I remember once saying "When petrol hits a quid a GALLON (younger readers ask your Dad) I'm stopping driving"
Oh how we laughed!
I remember once saying "When petrol hits a quid a GALLON (younger readers ask your Dad) I'm stopping driving"
Oh how we laughed!
In reply to The Lemming:
To the people who say find something more important to whinge about it doesnt matter....
Well everything you have and eat has been transported by the vehicles using fuel, the price of it goes up the price of everything goes up. It effects everyone weather you have a car or not.
Alternative tax revenue source, legalise drugs and then tax them as heavily as tobacco. Instant dependable source of money.
To the people who say find something more important to whinge about it doesnt matter....
Well everything you have and eat has been transported by the vehicles using fuel, the price of it goes up the price of everything goes up. It effects everyone weather you have a car or not.
Alternative tax revenue source, legalise drugs and then tax them as heavily as tobacco. Instant dependable source of money.
In reply to The Lemming:
Okay. So I'm going to tread a fine line here between telling people who don't want to know stuff they don't want to hear and telling people who already know stuff they didn't need to hear. Maybe bullet points would be a good plan. 50p says I fail miserably.
With thanks to Wikipedia for saving me having to construct my own sentences:
1. Peak oil is the point in time when the maximum rate of global petroleum extraction is reached, after which the rate of production enters terminal decline.
2. The post-peak production decline will cause severe increases in the price of oil which will probably have negative implications for the global economy.
3. Optimistic estimations of peak production forecast the global decline will begin by 2020.
4. Pessimistic predictions of future oil production suggest that either the peak has already occurred, that oil production is on the cusp of the peak, or that it will occur shortly.
5. Since supplies of oil and gas are essential to modern agriculture techniques, a fall in global oil supplies could cause spiking food prices and unprecedented famine in the coming decades.
"All the easy oil and gas in the world has pretty much been found. Now comes the harder work in finding and producing oil from more challenging environments and work areas.”
— William J. Cummings, Exxon-Mobil company spokesman, December 2005
“It is pretty clear that there is not much chance of finding any significant quantity of new cheap oil. Any new or unconventional oil is going to be expensive.”
— Lord Ron Oxburgh, a former chairman of Shell, October 2008
As far as I'm concerned prohibitively expensive petrol is an inevitability. The sooner it happens the better - it will stop us all from pointlessly burning it to fund our own irrelevant self-indulgent little luxury lives.
The crazy thing is, internal combustion engines didn't really splutter into life until about 1850. By 2050 they will be all-but-gone. We'll have burnt ALL of that precious precious resource. History will hate us. People will look back on that 200 year period and give it a catchy name. The Destruction Period, The Greed Era, The Selfish Age.
In answer to the OP - what are we, the nation, doing about it?
Planning for the low carbon future by taking steps to reduce our own consumption, supporting the 'transition' movement, buying local in season fruit and veg, actively researching non-petroleum-based modes of transport. Or thoughtlessly moaning like a brainless halfwit. There seem to be people doing both.
Ben
Okay. So I'm going to tread a fine line here between telling people who don't want to know stuff they don't want to hear and telling people who already know stuff they didn't need to hear. Maybe bullet points would be a good plan. 50p says I fail miserably.
With thanks to Wikipedia for saving me having to construct my own sentences:
1. Peak oil is the point in time when the maximum rate of global petroleum extraction is reached, after which the rate of production enters terminal decline.
2. The post-peak production decline will cause severe increases in the price of oil which will probably have negative implications for the global economy.
3. Optimistic estimations of peak production forecast the global decline will begin by 2020.
4. Pessimistic predictions of future oil production suggest that either the peak has already occurred, that oil production is on the cusp of the peak, or that it will occur shortly.
5. Since supplies of oil and gas are essential to modern agriculture techniques, a fall in global oil supplies could cause spiking food prices and unprecedented famine in the coming decades.
"All the easy oil and gas in the world has pretty much been found. Now comes the harder work in finding and producing oil from more challenging environments and work areas.”
— William J. Cummings, Exxon-Mobil company spokesman, December 2005
“It is pretty clear that there is not much chance of finding any significant quantity of new cheap oil. Any new or unconventional oil is going to be expensive.”
— Lord Ron Oxburgh, a former chairman of Shell, October 2008
As far as I'm concerned prohibitively expensive petrol is an inevitability. The sooner it happens the better - it will stop us all from pointlessly burning it to fund our own irrelevant self-indulgent little luxury lives.
The crazy thing is, internal combustion engines didn't really splutter into life until about 1850. By 2050 they will be all-but-gone. We'll have burnt ALL of that precious precious resource. History will hate us. People will look back on that 200 year period and give it a catchy name. The Destruction Period, The Greed Era, The Selfish Age.
In answer to the OP - what are we, the nation, doing about it?
Planning for the low carbon future by taking steps to reduce our own consumption, supporting the 'transition' movement, buying local in season fruit and veg, actively researching non-petroleum-based modes of transport. Or thoughtlessly moaning like a brainless halfwit. There seem to be people doing both.
Ben
In reply to The Lemming: Stop talking crap, the price of diesel is NOT at an all time record high either in overall terms nor in real terms (ie incoporating inflation).
In reply to 1apetus:
I think that's an excellent point. Lots of people smoke Cannabis and they will do it regardless of the law. Why not bring some much needed tax money in from it?
> (In reply to The Lemming)
>
> Alternative tax revenue source, legalise drugs and then tax them as heavily as tobacco. Instant dependable source of money.
>
> Alternative tax revenue source, legalise drugs and then tax them as heavily as tobacco. Instant dependable source of money.
I think that's an excellent point. Lots of people smoke Cannabis and they will do it regardless of the law. Why not bring some much needed tax money in from it?
In reply to The Lemming: its obviousley still too cheap as the whiff of a rumour about a shortage has the morons queuing for it. Added to that you've got people driving cars bought for the image they convey rather than for the mpg figures. Off roaders burning it for fun. Stupid summer Sunday bikers wasting to ride around for no reason at all.
Its a fact that it hasn't reached a price that the public won't pay.
Its a fact that it hasn't reached a price that the public won't pay.
In reply to The Lemming: I met someone yesterday who drives 2.5 hours to work each day. Thats 5 hours a day. If as individuals we are not able to change our behaviour then lets hope the market can do it for us.
In reply to Ben Darvill:
> (In reply to The Lemming)
>
> Planning for the low carbon future by taking steps to reduce our own consumption, supporting the 'transition' movement, buying local in season fruit and veg, actively researching non-petroleum-based modes of transport. Or thoughtlessly moaning like a brainless halfwit. There seem to be people doing both.
>
What do you think the "solution" is and given we don't live in a dictatorship how do think this can or should be achieved?>
> Planning for the low carbon future by taking steps to reduce our own consumption, supporting the 'transition' movement, buying local in season fruit and veg, actively researching non-petroleum-based modes of transport. Or thoughtlessly moaning like a brainless halfwit. There seem to be people doing both.
>
In reply to Padraig: aye - but most of that jump came in the last 3 weeks so is largely just weather related panick buying and people filling up before Christmas - gives teh oil suppliers a chance to profiteer i'm afraid. Go onto boilerjuice and you can get average price graphs... you'll see teh same pattern last year only it kicked in about Mid Dec (for Christmas) and tailed off in January after last years bad weather spell. This year it just started early with the Nov/Dec snow. Caught me out but in future I'll be filling up early November so I don't need to anywhere near Christmas. Never hear anything on the news about 'energy prices' relating to people who have to buy their oil or gas by tanker delivery but we are all on the hook for whatever a handfull of companies fancy charging on any one given day.
In reply to Postmanpat:
Well, we have a whole thread about possible policies going on in 'the pub'.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=437974
Some of which aren't entirely serious (!) but many are.
The idealist in me would like to think that education, involvement, empowerment and a sense of social responsibility would lead people to make beneficial changes of their own free will. There are some on UKC - Eeeerm, Fawksey, Tdubs, David Hooper, Timmd and others - who have publicly stated that they recognise these looming problems are taking personal steps to reduce their own consumption. Whether this would be enough if done by everyone I don't know. I mean more than "Oh yes, I recycle" by the way.
However, as far I can tell there will always be people like beastofackworth, WillRawlinson, Padraig and bouldery bits who don't think is should be their individual responsibility to do anything. The "but why me?" response. The response which fundamentally doesn't 'get' the concept of the Tragedy of the Commons. I don't think my idealistic view has any basis in reality. Many people are, sadly, just plain selfish.
That's why I believe international agreements hold out the best hope. Agreements which tie national governments to behaviours and targets irrespective of who is elected for the latest five year term.
But that does not absolve us as individuals from a responsibility to do our best to be part of the solution rather than the problem. Massive, widespread concerted action to address a big problem comes about through the collective smaller and seemingly insignificant steps taken by lots of individuals. Whether directed from 'the bottom' (so to speak) or from 'the top' the behaviours still need to be adopted by individuals. The only difference is whether you choose to do it or whether you are forced to do it. Of course, if the impetus comes from 'the top' it might be accompanied by an infrastructure to make it less painful. We can but hope.
Ben
> (In reply to Ben Darvill)
> [...]
> What do you think the "solution" is and given we don't live in a dictatorship how do think this can or should be achieved?
> [...]
> What do you think the "solution" is and given we don't live in a dictatorship how do think this can or should be achieved?
Well, we have a whole thread about possible policies going on in 'the pub'.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=437974
Some of which aren't entirely serious (!) but many are.
The idealist in me would like to think that education, involvement, empowerment and a sense of social responsibility would lead people to make beneficial changes of their own free will. There are some on UKC - Eeeerm, Fawksey, Tdubs, David Hooper, Timmd and others - who have publicly stated that they recognise these looming problems are taking personal steps to reduce their own consumption. Whether this would be enough if done by everyone I don't know. I mean more than "Oh yes, I recycle" by the way.
However, as far I can tell there will always be people like beastofackworth, WillRawlinson, Padraig and bouldery bits who don't think is should be their individual responsibility to do anything. The "but why me?" response. The response which fundamentally doesn't 'get' the concept of the Tragedy of the Commons. I don't think my idealistic view has any basis in reality. Many people are, sadly, just plain selfish.
That's why I believe international agreements hold out the best hope. Agreements which tie national governments to behaviours and targets irrespective of who is elected for the latest five year term.
But that does not absolve us as individuals from a responsibility to do our best to be part of the solution rather than the problem. Massive, widespread concerted action to address a big problem comes about through the collective smaller and seemingly insignificant steps taken by lots of individuals. Whether directed from 'the bottom' (so to speak) or from 'the top' the behaviours still need to be adopted by individuals. The only difference is whether you choose to do it or whether you are forced to do it. Of course, if the impetus comes from 'the top' it might be accompanied by an infrastructure to make it less painful. We can but hope.
Ben
In reply to Fawksey:
>
It will never reach that price until there are economic alternatives. Plus if we are talking about environmental disincentives to get folk out of their cars it ain't gonna happen until there are alternatives that are cheap enough to use. Train prices are going up, if you live in remote areas you need your cars etc etc etc. People will basically pay the price through necessity rather than anything else.
I wouldn't be surprised if we paid more for fuel than anyone else in the world. For instance the cost of food in Oz when I was there earlier in the year was substantially higher than the UK yet fuel was substantially cheaper.
>
>
> Its a fact that it hasn't reached a price that the public won't pay.
> Its a fact that it hasn't reached a price that the public won't pay.
It will never reach that price until there are economic alternatives. Plus if we are talking about environmental disincentives to get folk out of their cars it ain't gonna happen until there are alternatives that are cheap enough to use. Train prices are going up, if you live in remote areas you need your cars etc etc etc. People will basically pay the price through necessity rather than anything else.
I wouldn't be surprised if we paid more for fuel than anyone else in the world. For instance the cost of food in Oz when I was there earlier in the year was substantially higher than the UK yet fuel was substantially cheaper.
In reply to The Lemming:
Didn't you start a really similar thread that got no traction relatively recently?!
Don't you realise nothing can be done about it, as global demand for energy goes up,in combination with increased cost of extraction, prices are going to rise.
Eventually they'll get to the point where investing in energy efficiency becomes worth spending money on.
A paper I recently saw suggested that the 'true' cost of energy is 5 times the amount we currently pay for it.
Didn't you start a really similar thread that got no traction relatively recently?!
Don't you realise nothing can be done about it, as global demand for energy goes up,in combination with increased cost of extraction, prices are going to rise.
Eventually they'll get to the point where investing in energy efficiency becomes worth spending money on.
A paper I recently saw suggested that the 'true' cost of energy is 5 times the amount we currently pay for it.
In reply to MelH:
Absolutely. I live about 15 miles from my work. It would be the best part of a tenner a day for the combination of buses and trains required. It costs me £3 to get there and back on my 55mpg motorised bicycle. Economic alternative?
(I'm not even sure that public transport would use less fuel/passenger-mile, since we're on the end of a bus route and when I do use it I'm often the only passenger for quite a few stops. Naturally Mr Darvill will tell me to move closer, but where we live is on the line between my and my wife's work. Between us we will always do 45 miles a day wherever we live)
> (In reply to Fawksey)
> It will never reach that price until there are economic alternatives. Plus if we are talking about environmental disincentives to get folk out of their cars it ain't gonna happen until there are alternatives that are cheap enough to use.
> It will never reach that price until there are economic alternatives. Plus if we are talking about environmental disincentives to get folk out of their cars it ain't gonna happen until there are alternatives that are cheap enough to use.
Absolutely. I live about 15 miles from my work. It would be the best part of a tenner a day for the combination of buses and trains required. It costs me £3 to get there and back on my 55mpg motorised bicycle. Economic alternative?
(I'm not even sure that public transport would use less fuel/passenger-mile, since we're on the end of a bus route and when I do use it I'm often the only passenger for quite a few stops. Naturally Mr Darvill will tell me to move closer, but where we live is on the line between my and my wife's work. Between us we will always do 45 miles a day wherever we live)
In reply to wildchild:
He'll probably tell you to get divorced, THEN move closer.
> (In reply to MelH)
> [...]
> Naturally Mr Darvill will tell me to move closer, but where we live is on the line between my and my wife's work. Between us we will always do 45 miles a day wherever we live)
> [...]
> Naturally Mr Darvill will tell me to move closer, but where we live is on the line between my and my wife's work. Between us we will always do 45 miles a day wherever we live)
He'll probably tell you to get divorced, THEN move closer.
In reply to The Lemming: Stop driving so much?
In reply to SCC: can't he get a job where his wife works? Or get her a job where he works? Or better still. Pack her job in and do without the second car and foreign holiday!
In reply to MJ:
The gov should tax wanking
> (In reply to The Lemming)
>
> Care to suggest an alternative source of tax revenue?
>
> Care to suggest an alternative source of tax revenue?
The gov should tax wanking
In reply to doz generale:
They wouldn't be able to spend that much money!
> (In reply to MJ)
> [...]
>
> The gov should tax wanking
> [...]
>
> The gov should tax wanking
They wouldn't be able to spend that much money!
In reply to Fawksey: I think that the days of the combustion engine are numbered. Were only a short step technologywise from relyable cheap electric cars
In reply to doz generale:
Like getting hold of a magic pile of raw materials to make the billions of batteries that you would need? Lithium is reasonably abundant but rather energy intensive to extract and the other metals required are both rare and difficult to extract. Also I'm not convinced we could currently produce a supply of sufficiently robust high efficiency electric motors without obtaining a better supply of Neodymium, which is currently pretty much controlled by China who plan to restrict access to non-Chinese suppliers.
> (In reply to Fawksey) I think that the days of the combustion engine are numbered. Were only a short step technologywise from relyable cheap electric cars
Like getting hold of a magic pile of raw materials to make the billions of batteries that you would need? Lithium is reasonably abundant but rather energy intensive to extract and the other metals required are both rare and difficult to extract. Also I'm not convinced we could currently produce a supply of sufficiently robust high efficiency electric motors without obtaining a better supply of Neodymium, which is currently pretty much controlled by China who plan to restrict access to non-Chinese suppliers.
In reply to doz generale:
Tax and legalise the drugs please, anything but wanking. Think of the 5 times a day teenagers. They'd be in crippling debt before they even got to uni, where they would accumulate MORE debt.
> (In reply to MJ)
> [...]
>
> The gov should tax wanking
> [...]
>
> The gov should tax wanking
Tax and legalise the drugs please, anything but wanking. Think of the 5 times a day teenagers. They'd be in crippling debt before they even got to uni, where they would accumulate MORE debt.
In reply to Reach>Talent:
Doomsayers said exactly the same thing about computers in the seventies and eighties.
> Like getting hold of a magic pile of raw materials to make the billions of batteries that you would need?
Doomsayers said exactly the same thing about computers in the seventies and eighties.
In reply to doz generale: When I bought my first car petrol was 3s6d (17.5p) per UK gallon (4.55lts) and a packet of three condoms was 3s9d, I wonder how the value has shifted.
In reply to niggle:
And they'll be right...eventually! Everything made with non-renewable raw materials obviously has a finite limit, recyled or not. Peak oil just gets the most press because we use so much of it.
> (In reply to mkean)
>
> Doomsayers said exactly the same thing about computers in the seventies and eighties.
>
> Doomsayers said exactly the same thing about computers in the seventies and eighties.
And they'll be right...eventually! Everything made with non-renewable raw materials obviously has a finite limit, recyled or not. Peak oil just gets the most press because we use so much of it.
In reply to doz generale:
We are a LONG way from cheap sustainable electric cars...
I addition they SUCK in cold countries.
We are a LONG way from cheap sustainable electric cars...
I addition they SUCK in cold countries.
In reply to niggle:
Doomsayers said exactly the same thing about computers in the seventies and eighties.
People who can't find an abundant source of Silicon aren't in a position to comment. Try researching where deposits of the rare earths are.
Doomsayers said exactly the same thing about computers in the seventies and eighties.
People who can't find an abundant source of Silicon aren't in a position to comment. Try researching where deposits of the rare earths are.
In reply to Removed User:
Don't worry with that boundless battery power you can heat them electrically, it won't do much to for the range though
> I addition they SUCK in cold countries.
Don't worry with that boundless battery power you can heat them electrically, it won't do much to for the range though
In reply to doz generale:
"The gov should tax wanking".
Woudn't that be applicable only to the self employed?
"The gov should tax wanking".
Woudn't that be applicable only to the self employed?
In reply to The Lemming: anyone seen the price of carbonated WATER these days? 500ml of San pellegrino is 59p! now that is expensive!
In reply to The Lemming: 128.9p when I filled up the other day... and that is from a town filling station... I hate to think what it is on the motorways now...
I have always tried to keep my driving to a minimum, but cover about 30,000 miles a year, which is mostly work! If I can I travel by train, but the cost of that is more than driving, so economics dictate that I drive, and until it becomes cost effective for me to take the train then I will have to drive.
I have always tried to keep my driving to a minimum, but cover about 30,000 miles a year, which is mostly work! If I can I travel by train, but the cost of that is more than driving, so economics dictate that I drive, and until it becomes cost effective for me to take the train then I will have to drive.
In reply to Removed User:
What makes you think we are a long way from cheap electric cars? There are allready several production electric cars on the market. I give it 6 to 8 years until the cost of electric crosses with combustion and the availibility of charging points becomes more widespread.
> (In reply to doz generale)
>
> We are a LONG way from cheap sustainable electric cars...
>
> I addition they SUCK in cold countries.
>
> We are a LONG way from cheap sustainable electric cars...
>
> I addition they SUCK in cold countries.
What makes you think we are a long way from cheap electric cars? There are allready several production electric cars on the market. I give it 6 to 8 years until the cost of electric crosses with combustion and the availibility of charging points becomes more widespread.
In reply to Ben Darvill: Your contributions to this forum are superb, I hope you continue to post and help people think a little deeper, despite the vitriol coming your way.
In reply to Tam Stone:
Thank you Tam.
I'm not sure that I can force people to think a little deeper and I'm not sure I should try. I am thinking deeper myself, out loud, and if people choose to listen then great
Thank you Tam.
I'm not sure that I can force people to think a little deeper and I'm not sure I should try. I am thinking deeper myself, out loud, and if people choose to listen then great
In reply to doz generale:
Note the word sustainable. The batteries costs/lifespan are the main issue that needs to be solved.
Battery technology moves slowly, there is no silver bullet on the horizon at the minute.
Also my point about heating in electric cars is non-trivial.
Note the word sustainable. The batteries costs/lifespan are the main issue that needs to be solved.
Battery technology moves slowly, there is no silver bullet on the horizon at the minute.
Also my point about heating in electric cars is non-trivial.
In reply to Reach>Talent:
I raised more-or-less this same query on a different thread and David Hooper was kind enough to send this link which contains some useful info.
http://www.thegreenlivingforum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=101181
They have looked at the eco-credentials of electric cars. Makes for interesting reading/viewing.
Ben
> (In reply to doz generale)
> [...]
>
> Like getting hold of a magic pile of raw materials to make the billions of batteries that you would need? Lithium is reasonably abundant but rather energy intensive to extract and the other metals required are both rare and difficult to extract. Also I'm not convinced we could currently produce a supply of sufficiently robust high efficiency electric motors without obtaining a better supply of Neodymium, which is currently pretty much controlled by China who plan to restrict access to non-Chinese suppliers.
> [...]
>
> Like getting hold of a magic pile of raw materials to make the billions of batteries that you would need? Lithium is reasonably abundant but rather energy intensive to extract and the other metals required are both rare and difficult to extract. Also I'm not convinced we could currently produce a supply of sufficiently robust high efficiency electric motors without obtaining a better supply of Neodymium, which is currently pretty much controlled by China who plan to restrict access to non-Chinese suppliers.
I raised more-or-less this same query on a different thread and David Hooper was kind enough to send this link which contains some useful info.
http://www.thegreenlivingforum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=101181
They have looked at the eco-credentials of electric cars. Makes for interesting reading/viewing.
Ben
In reply to Ben Darvill:
Quoting here from that thread:
"As shown in the video, the carbon figures quoted include the carbon impact of the battery production and recycling at end of life. The figures work out at 3g/km for a lithium based battery and 6g/km for a lead acid battery.
Compare that to over 3kg of carbon dioxide emissions for a litre of diesel (based on well to wheel figures) and you can see there is a significant improvement with electric vehicles compared to internal combustion engined vehicles.
I researched the whole cradle to grave energy cost for both electric cars and ICE (internal combustion engine) cars for my book.
In terms of production and destruction, electric cars and ICE cars are comparable in theory. In practice, the current electric cars appear to be significantly better, but much of this is down to the types of vehicles that are being built. When the big manufacturers start building electric cars in volume, the carbon footprint for production and destruction will be very similar.
In terms of running costs, electric cars easily outstrip ICE cars, even if the electricity comes from coal."
Quoting here from that thread:
"As shown in the video, the carbon figures quoted include the carbon impact of the battery production and recycling at end of life. The figures work out at 3g/km for a lithium based battery and 6g/km for a lead acid battery.
Compare that to over 3kg of carbon dioxide emissions for a litre of diesel (based on well to wheel figures) and you can see there is a significant improvement with electric vehicles compared to internal combustion engined vehicles.
I researched the whole cradle to grave energy cost for both electric cars and ICE (internal combustion engine) cars for my book.
In terms of production and destruction, electric cars and ICE cars are comparable in theory. In practice, the current electric cars appear to be significantly better, but much of this is down to the types of vehicles that are being built. When the big manufacturers start building electric cars in volume, the carbon footprint for production and destruction will be very similar.
In terms of running costs, electric cars easily outstrip ICE cars, even if the electricity comes from coal."
In reply to Ben Darvill:
This is also interesting:
"Yes, the production of batteries has a big environmental cost. But so does the extraction and refinement of oil. The difference is, you use the batteries for several years and then recycle them (to make new batteries) whereas you set fire to oil, burn it once, release all the carbons in one go and then it is gone. I accept that nickel metal hydride batteries are pretty awful environmentally, but very few electric cars use nickel metal hydride batteries now (I don't count the Toyota Prius as an electric car). Lead acid batteries and lithium ion batteries are significantly better on environmental terms and both lead acid battery and lithium ion battery recycling is well advanced, which will help reduce the carbon footprint of electric cars even further in the future."
This is also interesting:
"Yes, the production of batteries has a big environmental cost. But so does the extraction and refinement of oil. The difference is, you use the batteries for several years and then recycle them (to make new batteries) whereas you set fire to oil, burn it once, release all the carbons in one go and then it is gone. I accept that nickel metal hydride batteries are pretty awful environmentally, but very few electric cars use nickel metal hydride batteries now (I don't count the Toyota Prius as an electric car). Lead acid batteries and lithium ion batteries are significantly better on environmental terms and both lead acid battery and lithium ion battery recycling is well advanced, which will help reduce the carbon footprint of electric cars even further in the future."
In reply to Ben Darvill:
I want one of these: http://www.arcimoto.com/concept http://www.arcimoto.com/journey/thank-you-arcimoto
It'll be crap in the snow and there's not a 4x4 version but as a town car it looks great.
I want one of these: http://www.arcimoto.com/concept http://www.arcimoto.com/journey/thank-you-arcimoto
It'll be crap in the snow and there's not a 4x4 version but as a town car it looks great.
In reply to Ben Darvill:
sorry ben,couldnt resist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_599_GTB_Fiorano
not faster than a V12 ferrari then so what other claims have they falsified?
> (In reply to Toby S)
>
> I'm saving up for one of these:
>
> http://www.ecotricity.co.uk/about/nemesis/
>
>
>
> Ben
>
> I'm saving up for one of these:
>
> http://www.ecotricity.co.uk/about/nemesis/
>
>
>
> Ben
sorry ben,couldnt resist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_599_GTB_Fiorano
not faster than a V12 ferrari then so what other claims have they falsified?
In reply to Removed User:
I was not really talking about sustainability and ecological issues. It's not just the battery technology that will make them more cost effective it's the way in which the manufacture and supply chain will evolve as demand rises that will drive the price down. Soon enough it will be cheaper to buy and run an electric car then a combustion car even if battery technology were to stand still, which it wont.
> (In reply to doz generale)
>
> Note the word sustainable. The batteries costs/lifespan are the main issue that needs to be solved.
>
> Battery technology moves slowly, there is no silver bullet on the horizon at the minute.
>
> Also my point about heating in electric cars is non-trivial.
>
> Note the word sustainable. The batteries costs/lifespan are the main issue that needs to be solved.
>
> Battery technology moves slowly, there is no silver bullet on the horizon at the minute.
>
> Also my point about heating in electric cars is non-trivial.
I was not really talking about sustainability and ecological issues. It's not just the battery technology that will make them more cost effective it's the way in which the manufacture and supply chain will evolve as demand rises that will drive the price down. Soon enough it will be cheaper to buy and run an electric car then a combustion car even if battery technology were to stand still, which it wont.
In reply to doz generale:
it's the way in which the manufacture and supply chain will evolve as demand rises that will drive the price down.
I suspect that in the short to medium term the demand may have the opposite effect, as demand will likely outstrip supply. In recent years there have been several examples of sudden rapid increase in demand of emerging technologies causing a price jump, solar cells are a good example: Solar cells can be maufactured from relatively low grade silicon and in earlier applications they often purchased waste from high grade semiconductor plants. As demand for solar cells increased faster than the rate of supply of low grade silicon, manufacturers were forced to compete with major chip fabricators for high grade material to fill the gap. This caused a rise in the cost of solar cells despite improvements in the manufacturing process driving costs down.
it's the way in which the manufacture and supply chain will evolve as demand rises that will drive the price down.
I suspect that in the short to medium term the demand may have the opposite effect, as demand will likely outstrip supply. In recent years there have been several examples of sudden rapid increase in demand of emerging technologies causing a price jump, solar cells are a good example: Solar cells can be maufactured from relatively low grade silicon and in earlier applications they often purchased waste from high grade semiconductor plants. As demand for solar cells increased faster than the rate of supply of low grade silicon, manufacturers were forced to compete with major chip fabricators for high grade material to fill the gap. This caused a rise in the cost of solar cells despite improvements in the manufacturing process driving costs down.
In reply to The Lemming:
Stop whingeing,
Your rum £15 a litre upwards
Milk £1.20 a litre delivered
Beer, £5 a litre upwards in most places
Soft drinks in a pub, £5-9 a litre, yes, that tonic water IS £10 a litre as well!!!!!!!!!!
Stop whingeing,
Your rum £15 a litre upwards
Milk £1.20 a litre delivered
Beer, £5 a litre upwards in most places
Soft drinks in a pub, £5-9 a litre, yes, that tonic water IS £10 a litre as well!!!!!!!!!!
In reply to sutty:
Don't have one. Walk, cycle, run to work. Taxi for a big shop once a fortnight. Hire car for holidays. Does anyone need to drive to the out of town supermarket 3 times a week for bread and milk? I used to walk and then take a bus to school despite my parents having a car each.
Regards
D
Don't have one. Walk, cycle, run to work. Taxi for a big shop once a fortnight. Hire car for holidays. Does anyone need to drive to the out of town supermarket 3 times a week for bread and milk? I used to walk and then take a bus to school despite my parents having a car each.
Regards
D
In reply to doz generale:
More carbon used in the manufacture of a car than it will consume in fuel during it's lifetime? I don't think electric vehicles mean anything different in terms of the environment (more power stations to be built to power batteries) except car manufacturers understanding that fuel prices are rising - which has little to do with present availability or the issue of peak oil - although that feeds the public misconception of it. It's the difference between vinyl and cds - a new improved format to get you to part with your cash. Get up earlier and walk.
Regards
D
More carbon used in the manufacture of a car than it will consume in fuel during it's lifetime? I don't think electric vehicles mean anything different in terms of the environment (more power stations to be built to power batteries) except car manufacturers understanding that fuel prices are rising - which has little to do with present availability or the issue of peak oil - although that feeds the public misconception of it. It's the difference between vinyl and cds - a new improved format to get you to part with your cash. Get up earlier and walk.
Regards
D
In reply to sutty:
My daughter tells me she pays 7.50€ for .5L beer in Paris, Bloody hell.
> (In reply to The Lemming)
>
> Beer, £5 a litre upwards in most places
>
> Beer, £5 a litre upwards in most places
My daughter tells me she pays 7.50€ for .5L beer in Paris, Bloody hell.
In reply to Dauphin:
Get up earlier and walk.
Or, run, cycle, get the bus/train*. +1
Ben
*for journeys where this is a realistic alternative. If no alternative, consider not making the journey, car sharing, moving house to be nearer work/mountains etc.
> (In reply to doz generale)
Get up earlier and walk.
>
> Regards
>
> D
> Regards
>
> D
Or, run, cycle, get the bus/train*. +1
Ben
*for journeys where this is a realistic alternative. If no alternative, consider not making the journey, car sharing, moving house to be nearer work/mountains etc.
In reply to The Lemming:
It was more expensive in summer 2008.
You could always cycle.
> Fuel a record high and what are we, the nation, doing about it?
It was more expensive in summer 2008.
You could always cycle.
In reply to John_Warner:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11968437
He's only quoting the news.
> (In reply to The Lemming)
> [...]
>
> It was more expensive in summer 2008.
>
> [...]
>
> It was more expensive in summer 2008.
>
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11968437
He's only quoting the news.
In reply to Reach>Talent:
Don't worry about rare earths. Most production was closed in USA, Australia and Canada because buying from china was so cheap. Now China is hoarding and the price has risen most of those old production facilities are being reopened.
> (In reply to doz generale)
> [...]
>
> Like getting hold of a magic pile of raw materials to make the billions of batteries that you would need? Lithium is reasonably abundant but rather energy intensive to extract and the other metals required are both rare and difficult to extract. Also I'm not convinced we could currently produce a supply of sufficiently robust high efficiency electric motors without obtaining a better supply of Neodymium, which is currently pretty much controlled by China who plan to restrict access to non-Chinese suppliers.
> [...]
>
> Like getting hold of a magic pile of raw materials to make the billions of batteries that you would need? Lithium is reasonably abundant but rather energy intensive to extract and the other metals required are both rare and difficult to extract. Also I'm not convinced we could currently produce a supply of sufficiently robust high efficiency electric motors without obtaining a better supply of Neodymium, which is currently pretty much controlled by China who plan to restrict access to non-Chinese suppliers.
Don't worry about rare earths. Most production was closed in USA, Australia and Canada because buying from china was so cheap. Now China is hoarding and the price has risen most of those old production facilities are being reopened.
In reply to Choss Weasel: !!! you'll be having them tax sex next!
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