UKC

Frost Nip?

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
 ojp 19 Dec 2010
Morning,

i think ive a little frost nip in one of my toes from Fridays outing.

Im curious

a) should i do anything now to help it heal?
b) How can i prevent it happening in the future? Ive got Nepal Extremes, Cool max liners and really thick smart wool socks.

Cheers

S
In reply to ojp: If your boots/thick socks are a tight fit you could be compromising circulation. If so you might actually be better off with thinner socks, or at least no liners.
OP ojp 19 Dec 2010
In reply to ojp: Could well be that cheers. I do them up pretty tight.
 heavy 19 Dec 2010
In reply to ojp:
Make sure your boots are dry whenever possible take insole out when drying, gaiters are worth stopping the snow getting in.

If feet feel cold keep moving toes when you can.
 lithos 19 Dec 2010
In reply to ojp:

is it frost nip or just numb ? i used to use Nepals but gave up after i'd loose feeling in my
one or two toes for a week. I tried all sort of arrangements with socks and removing the tongue but couldn't get it to work for me (shame great boots!) Other people I know have the same, numb toes but put up with it, trapped nerve apparently.
OP ojp 19 Dec 2010
In reply to ojp:

Well its been 2 days the tips numb/pins and needles sensation

S
 petestack 19 Dec 2010
In reply to ojp:

Can take weeks to stop tingling!
ice.solo 19 Dec 2010
In reply to ojp:

be bloody careful with frostnip. sounds ok, but can lead to serious problems later, ie more prone to its big brother, frost bite.

ive had it (right big toe and second toe) from boots too tight not just lacing but also not big enough (my summer boots on an underestimated day).

it may be as simple (and cheap) as going easy on the lacing over the toe, or it may mean bigger boots (ouch).

not a great deal you can do to get the feeling back. keep your feet warm obviously, massage, soak em, trip to thailand.
for me it took about a month (im so sure 2 weeks in thailand would have halved that) and now those toes get colder faster than the others. to that end i wear baturas with even the slightest hint of snow (and they walk better anyway).
 petestack 19 Dec 2010
In reply to ice.solo:
> be bloody careful with frostnip. sounds ok, but can lead to serious problems later

Have to agree with that... it's my fingers that are very susceptible but it would wear off during the week the first year I got it (several times). Then last season I got the tingling for weeks on end and my doctor quoted some period for recovery which I can't quite remember (might have been four to six or six to eight weeks). Thought I was being careful before (despite preferring fairly dexterous gloves for climbing) but now I've really got to watch it!
 Clay C 19 Dec 2010
In reply to ojp:

Sounds similar to what i got last winter in my big toes - they ended up really cold and painful after standing around at a belay. I had pins and needles in them for a couple of days, and they were numb for a good few months! They now have feeling back in them but they definitely get cold a lot quicker than any of my other toes.
 Ron Walker 19 Dec 2010
In reply to ojp:

I've had proper frost nip once on a exposed finger tip due to a hole my gloves. The finger was a waxy white and completely numb. It felt really thick for weeks afterwards. The sensation of touch gradually returned over the following months as did, eventually the sensation of hot and cold. It never really completely returned back to normal for several years if at all!

Are you sure it's frost nip and not a pinched or damaged nerve?
As Dan says if the boots are too tight your more likely to get cold feet as well as pinched nerves!!!

I was just commenting the other night while walking along the tracks at minus 10 (in trainers) that my feet were far warmer in my thin wool socks than they were with my thicker wool ones!
With well fitted modern boots you shouldn't need a liner and certainly not two pairs of thick socks.

Due to the abuse the feet take while constantly wearing boots, numb toes at the end of the season are fairly common with most folk I know...
OP ojp 19 Dec 2010
In reply to ojp:

Cheers for the replys.

Im out again in a weeks time. Will it be ok? or will it come back quicker?

Cheers

S
 alasdair19 19 Dec 2010
In reply to Ron Walker: interesting, looseing your big toe nails is sign of a good season no?

I got a numb chin once, tingly etc and lots of skin flaked away. Once nipped you do have long term damage, too tight boots seem to be (anecdotally) the ususal causr

It's pretty hard to get full on frost bite in scotland though a legendarily daft GUMCer managed it by leaving his boots outside while camping in january and then spending all day with numb feet. He ended up in glasgow A&E and they claimed never to have seen anything like it, or perhaps never having met anyone so daft....
 geordie cragg 19 Dec 2010
In reply to ojp: You know the one thing that climbers always forget when they have cold feet or hands is DEHYDRATION,whether at 900 mtrs or 5000mtrs, try being really hydrated the next time out. Don't have a problem with my Nepal Extremes, but I do if I am on the SWALLY.

Drink plenty, (water)

Cheers.

George.
 NickJH 19 Dec 2010
In reply to ojp:
Managed to get loose the feeling in two toes on my left foot in the Alps last year whilst belaying at -14oC. I wondered if the addition of a coolmax liner sock contributed in part to this. Normally I would just wear one pair of woolen socks (+ Nepal extremes) which have usually proved to be adequate even in cold temperatures. I'm now considering something like a merino liner sock hoping that this will be more effective than coolmax.
OP ojp 19 Dec 2010
In reply to ojp: thanks i might look for another liner socket. But i also know i had less then 500ml of water friday. Seems like it could be a combination of factors

s
 abr1966 19 Dec 2010
In reply to ojp: As others have said...bit of a combination of goot footwear, good circulation, hydration levels etc. I used to work up in Norway and some people on the hill would be more likely than others to be vulnerable. You can minimise your chances by being aaware of the risk factors and your own predisposing factors. Once you have had it you are more likely again, been a bit of a cold year so far and there will be more of it this year I reckon....best wishes.
 JJL 19 Dec 2010
In reply to ojp and others:

Once damaged, nerves either never regrow or very slowly (cm/year) so they need protecting.

Numb areas that otherwise recover ok (i.e. get back to being warm to someone else's touch) are a sign of pinching. Lacing boots unevenly (and too tightly) is a major culprit, although if you really want to knacker them, stand in slings in rock boots overnight...

Flexing the calf muscles even when otherwise motionless is extremely helpful - the circulation is aided hugely by the muscle pump this provides (squeezing blood past the valves in the veins).

If it's a spot area of cold with no real pressure points (e.g. hole in the glove) then keep it (as far as possible) off the metalwork whilst climbing and rub regularly. Localised numbness or even discoloration will heal (but slowly).

Damaging the nerves can affect the circulation on the next trip and mean bite rather than nip - and you don't want that.

Dry and with wriggle room is best.
OP ojp 19 Dec 2010
In reply to ojp: Thanks once again. Some good advice. Is there anything i can be doing at home to speed up recovery?
Mr Eddie 19 Dec 2010
In reply to ojp: Alcohol will dilate the blood vessels in the extremities. This can help frostbite after the risk of hypothermia has been removes. Not too sure about nip days after occurring.
ice.solo 19 Dec 2010
In reply to ojp:

slightly irrelevant: after nerve damage 18 months ago i went to a guy who ran currents thru them to judge the extent of damage. he explained that core damage (severed nerves, frozen nerves etc) doesnt regrow, but that sheath damage repairs at roughly 1mm a month (give or take obviously). and damn me he was correct about the damage id done, to within a 2 week window over 8 months.

an issue with permanant damage is delayed reaction to future cold that may super cool flesh (frost bite). you may not feel it till its too late.

i dont want to pick, but responder training and ER discourages using alcohol (these days). they dont have any tricks other than insulating so the affect bit returns to body temp gradually. not even using warm water until well after regular temp has been attained.

2 old methods up for debate are consuming ginger and paprika to stimulate circulation. seen regularly still being used on big peaks.
OP ojp 20 Dec 2010
In reply to ojp:

Cheers all very interesting information. Sure i wont be the only person this year with this issue

S
Pete Davis 20 Dec 2010
In reply to ojp:

If you have on-going numbness, this is frostbite, not frostnip.

Any persistent damage - whether it be numbness or actual tissue damage - means that your fingers, toes, ears etc have suffered freezing cold injury. Obviously there is a spectrum of damage from (for example) toes that remain numb for three months or so (relatively superficial damage), to toes that blister, turn black and eventually mummify or require surgical amputation (representing destructive deep tissue damage)!

By description you have suffered what we would classify as Stage 1 frostbite.

As for treatment:

1. do not subject these injured toes to freezing again this season
2. take aspirin 300mg daily or ibuprofen 400mg twice daily for two to three weeks
3. apply aloe vera gel to your feet for two to three weeks (contains vitamin E - essential for collagen, which is one of nature's building blocks)

The suggestion to use alcohol - while eminently appealing - is based upon mythology.

A common example of frostnip is blanching of the ears or tip of the nose, which very quickly disappears when the area is shielded from the wind and warmed.

It might seem to be a pedantic difference in nomenclature, but it is important not to diminish the fact that tissue destruction has occurred (i.e. the nerves in your feet are damaged) just because your toes haven't turned black and fallen off!

The practical significance of this is that your feet are now very prone to further - cummulative more destructive damage - if you allow them to freeze again this winter.

Hope that this helps.
 Dane1 31 Dec 2010
In reply to ojp:
Some good info already presented.
This may help as well...

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/11/immersion-foot.html
Dan Walker 07 Jan 2011
In reply to ojp:
Chris Imray is pretty much the authority on frostbite in the uk - here's a few links to his website that you might find useful:


http://www.christopherimray.co.uk/highaltitudemedicine/frostbite.htm

http://www.christopherimray.co.uk/highaltitudemedicine/nonfreezingcoldinjur...

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...