UKC

Route-setters, spare a thought at this festive time of year for those vertically-challenged individuals who face greater difficulties on reachy indoor routes on featureless walls.

A few well positioned small footholds could bring much pleasure to these people (whilst leaving the routes largely unchanged for the tall).

Partners of shorter climbers would also benefit - no longer would they have to keep listening to comments such as "that move was soooooo much easier for you" or "for me that was at least a grade harder, if not two grades"!

In reply to Alan_2468:

Get over it mate.The best climbers I know are all about 5ft 5. If you are short it's not your height failing you...

In reply to SARS:

Not being funny, but me and my partner are 5ft 3 and 5 ft respectively, we have to climb harder than our 5ft6 - 5ft 8 counterparts due to not being able to reach holds. However, we are mainly more flexible than the taller ones and get ourselves into positions they can't.

In reply to Alan_2468: I'm 5' 11 and i'm the short one compared to my mate who is 2 inches taller than me and is all arms and legs....I complain to him about the routes he chooses as they all favour huge reaches that I'm nowhere near....i don't ever climb indoors though so may well be harder on that type of stuff. It's all relative I guess, I prefer slab climbs tha suit my physique and my tall partner moans like you wouldn't believe when he's on climbs that I choose...his legs are always in the way when it gets a bit delicate and he's off...i love it!

In reply to SARS:
>If you are short it's not your height failing you...

That's a sweeping generalisation.

I climb much harder outside on nice featured rock than inside on routes with no features. Sometimes no matter how good your technique you just can't reach (slight disclaimer for short people who are uber strong - sometimes if you can lock off with one arm and then 'pop' for a hold you can make the move. I don't climb like that).

In reply to MelH:

also

long arms and long upper body are generally speaking much more useful than long legs. Being short with a +8 ape index is probably better than being 5'8'' with a negative ape index.... No?

In reply to MelH:

maybe, maybe not. it's a hypothesis I can't prove but I would put money on it being statistically true. there are always exceptions.

In reply to SARS:

True. There are certainly exceptions at my local wall. I do honestly think a lot of routes indoors do suit slightly taller people though. Just my opinion of where I climb. (one of the route setters there who is quite short would disagree with me maybe but he is ridiculously strong!!!)

In reply to Alan_2468:

I think the main question should be how tall are you Alan?

In reply to Alan_2468:

Good call! Being only 6'4" I often encounter insurmountable difficulties when climbing that would presumably be alleviated by the inclusion of many more, extremely well positioned footholds---and handholds for that matter . . . !

In reply to Alan_2468: Ratio of grip strength to bodyweight is *the only* anatomical factor statistically significant in (sport) climbing performance. Says so on my cereal packet.

In reply to Alan_2468:

Saw this study on the other channel:
Anthropometric and strength characteristics of world-class boulderers
http://versita.metapress.com/content/v7r757274248v443/fulltext.pdf

This was a study of climbers competing in the 2007 Bouldering World Cup in Sofia. Sorry, shorties, no excuses. For women, the elite boulderers' average height was 162.6 ± 11.6cm (so avg 5'4), males 174.6 ± 5.6cm (so avg 5'8ish). This was similar to elite sport climbers in earlier studies.

Not particularly tall, with some considerably shorter. The tallest climber was around 5'11. Not exactly tall.
So on the indoor world cup scene, which is full of big moves and reaches, is dominated by climbers on the small side of average.

Seems to me tall climbers have more excuses to climb badly?!

In reply to Alan_2468:

I think that's a fair comment about indoor walls. Outside height is usually much less of an issue. A few tiny screw-on footholds scattered about would greatly reduce the grade disparity on indoor routes - reasonably frequently at certain walls there genuinely are moves that are dynos for anyone under 5'7".

In reply to RockSteady:

By which I mean:

'So the indoor world cup scene, where the climbs are all about big moves and reaches on small holds, is dominated by climbers on the small side of average.'

In reply to Alan_2468:

T'is just one of those things...

Console yourself with the thought that all those routes outside with intermediaries will seem so much easier.

And the thought that, all else being equal, overhanging stuff tends to be more amenable for the short.

There are so many other excuses for not climbing as well as one might wish. I know them all!

Mick (5' 6")

In reply to Alan_2468:
A few well positioned small footholds could bring much pleasure to these people (whilst leaving the routes largely unchanged for the tall).

As a taller climber I wholeheartedly support your proposal with the one minor alteration that setters should stop descriminating against larger climbers by using tiny holds for hands. It is a disgusting example of descrimination against those climbers with larger hands!

In reply to Reach>Talent:

Ah but you large handed cheats get a much higher amount of skin contact on slopers so you can't go complaining about having big hands!

In reply to Eagle River:
Ah but you large handed cheats get a much higher amount of skin contact on slopers so you can't go complaining about having big hands!

Most slopers aren't big enough for me to get my hands on completely

In reply to Alan_2468:

The other night I watched two short girls climb a 14m 6a+ route. They both sailed up the route only to just fail to make the long lunge that was needed to get the top hold by the lower off. A taller person could have just stuck their arm up and reached it. So at times, it blinking well does make a difference!!

In reply to SARS:

I'm average height, but my partner is short.

Several times they have climbed beyond the impossible move using other holds, then hung on straight arms from the correct handholds to prove beyond any measure of doubt that neither of their feet can now touch the correct footholds. Dyno! Yes it's an option, but should you really have to dyno on something that is given a grade of 5 or 5+ indoors. Not to mention the fact that a shoulder injury could stop someone from climbing for quite a long time!

The climbing wall we usually use has plywood walls with minimal features between holds, so the options for a workaround are often limited.

Are you a routesetter by any chance? Wouldn't it be good if a greater proportion of customers could climb the route in the way the routesetter had envisaged, rather than having to come up with an alternative strategy?

In reply to Alan_2468:
Why don't you quit wingeing and learn to climb more dynamically?
Put your feet up on smears/in a bolt hole and then slap?
James

In reply to James Oswald:

It can be a bit tricky to smear on painted plywood at times!

It seems to be commonplace for anyone who makes a negative (even if it's meant to be constructive) comment on an indoor route to be labelled as "a poor climber", "a whinger" or someone who needs to "get over it".

Is this something that is an inherent part of indoor climbing culture. Are routesetters always right and climbers/customers always wrong?

In reply to Alan_2468:
yes..lots of egos involved as well.Otherwise its lazy route setting.I have watched various people i know to be good solid climbers try to transfer climbing style of rts indoors(specificaly the type where you have to place yr foot on a bolt hole and slap)and they get lost.All those yrs of climbing outdoors lost in the fog of having to train on lazily set indoor rts.Does not have to be this way and sometimes it is'nt!!!

In reply to Alan_2468: Some of my favourite moves indoors involve smearing with both feet on friction-painted plywood. At the wall where I climb, there has been a change over the last year or so from closely spaced holds (where the difficulty is increased simply by making the holds smaller) to more imaginative, reachy routes. Yes, there may be a stopper move sometimes that just seems too far, but in my experience that's because I've missed the correct technique first time around (high foot/smear/different body position) and it only becomes more satisfying when you get it. Climbing these types of routes has definitely seen an improvement in my all round technique and route reading skills.

In reply to Alan_2468: If the route setter's idea of making routes harder is limited to putting the holds further apart, then it is poor route setting which leads to a grade ceiling - i.e. you can easily do all the routes up to a certain grade but find that to try anything harder becomes an unreasonable step-up in difficulty. Routes can be made harder by using poorer holds (pinches, slopers, crimps, side-pulls, poor footholds, etc). If the routes are on steep walls, quite often you may find that you have insufficient power - but this can be trained and improved until you can do the moves. It may be okay to have a few dynos and lunges, but if every route above a certain grade consists of a series of dynos, it can be boring and limiting.

In reply to Alan_2468:

This reminds me of a quote I heard a while ago. When Don Whillans was asked what he did when he couldn't reach holds he said simply, "I climb up to them."

Facetious maybe, but there's a lot of truth in.

Both of my most regular climbing partners are about 6 foot 2, I'm 5 foot 10 ish. I remember I once moaned about a problem indoors saying that I couldn't reach the next hold, and one of them just said "reach is a skill." The words stuck with me because it's a very true statement!

Fact is, there will always be routes which are hard if you're short, but there are just as many routes which are harder if you're tall, or if your legs are too long, or if your legs are too short, or if you're too crap, or if your hands are too fat, or if your skin is too soft etc etc etc.

In reply to MelH:

How is the ape index calculated?

In reply to Byronius Maximus:

Agree that we all have scope to improve. We are all grown ups and shouldn't need our hands held etc.

Having said that, I think it would be good if indoor walls more closely resembled the outdoor situation where there are usually more options for feet placement.

End of!

In reply to Byronius Maximus:
That's such a good quote!

If there are moves I can't do, I just have to try them if and when I am stronger. However, there are routes outdoors I know I will never be able to do. Some of these involve very wide bridging or hugging widely-spaced opposing aretes. But that's life.

In reply to Alan_2468:
This is a standing joke at my local walls.
I'm 6'4 (majority leg) and have issues with some of the routes, due to the placement of holds / features etc. And on other routes I can reach up and completely by-pass the crux.
Most of the routes are now classed as "tall climbs" or "short climbs". In other words some climbs are easier for tall people, some are easier for shorter people. And occassionaly we all agree on which one is which. There are a number of routes I just have to work out and do "my way" regardless of how everyone else does it.
The fact that I'm crap probably doesn't help either

In reply to Alan_2468: My 11 year old lad says he can't reach some of the holds on the wall I made for him on the side of the house...just excuses I tell him...and confirm that I am the better climber!

In reply to abr1966:

I have been living in Japan for the past 3.5 years and climbing at the walls here - mainly bouldering. Most of the problems have been set for small people. Rather than whinge aboutit I have tried to improve my strength and hip flexibilty

In reply to dreec:


I don't have a problem with others thinking I'm a poor climber or whatever. I didn't discover climbing until well into my middle age, and I'm just aiming to be as good as I can be. My kids can outclimb me, except on reachy routes of course. When they get a bit taller they will climb far harder than I ever will, and I'll be pleased for them.

I would be great if route-setters actually addressed whatever feedback people give about routes with either an explanation as to why the route is set as it is, some advice about how the climber might make progress on the route, or the placement of an extra foothold or two for the short. Instead, more often than not, I find that route-setters go straight into "another whingy climber, must be crap" mode.

In reply to Alan_2468:
Rather than complaining about route-setters, think of it from their point of view. They will want their routes to suit as many people as possible, so they will aim for the average height climber. Actually they'll probably go for a couple of inches less than average, cos they know they'll get more grief from shorties who can't reach holds than from tall folk who are constantly bunched up and having bent arms (trust me, extra reach isn't always an advantage, whereas the extra weight we inevitably carry is always a disadvantage).

A good solution to satisfy those who aren't average height is extra footholds, or better still featured walls. But the latter is more expensive initially, whilst adding extra screw-on footholds is going to be time-consuming, so it might not be possible for the route setter to do it.

Oh, and don't forget that route-setters are evil b*st*rds who want to see you suffer

In reply to Alan_2468:
No I don't think that it is part of the indoor climbing culture.
But we all have the body god (or whoever) dealt you and you need to play to your strengths but work your weaknesses. Taller climbers tend to struggle with smaller, fingery moves and shorter climbers tend to struggle on big moves. I'm not trying to accuse you of being rubbish or anything.
But why not just assume that big moves are a kind of move which you are likely to be worse at and practice and improve at them?
James

In reply to Chris the Tall:

True! I frequently put sequences of moves that required a certain order of hand movements so that if the wrong hand sequence was used they would reach a hold that couldn't be matched with the wrong hand and have nowhere to go. I believe it taught people to read the route correctly from the ground before setting off. Used to love watching people getting it wrong!

I know, I'm a d1ck.

In reply to RockSteady:

I'm guessing the average height of the world cup route setters was also 5'8" so potentially all the study shows is that the nearer you are to the dimensions of the setters the more problems will suit you.

In reply to RupertD:

I reckon that if you only consider outdoor climbing there will still be a propensity towards shorter climbers. You make a good point but how are the entrants to world cups decided? Possibly through varied walls set by all different types?

Rope Race in Marple always used to be buggers for setting long moves where reach was the deciding factor

In reply to Alan_2468:

Sorry Alan I wasn't suggesting for a second you were a poor climber, just confirming I was I started climbing just over a year ago (aged 39)

I think some of the coments from ChrisTheTall are accurate, as a tall climber I found myself bunched up more often than streatched out.
But it just adds to the challenge.
As I said previously there are "tall climbs" & "short climbs" and sometimes my climbing partners agree.

In reply to Alan_2468: I'm short and in all honesty you just need to get stronger and height wont be as much of a problem

In reply to Alan_2468:

When you are 5ft 3, and need to do a one armed lock off and smear to get to the next hold on a 4+ then you have to wonder whether the route grader has it a bit wrong.

In reply to Alan_2468:

Having recently spoken with an elite competition climber he pointed out that the majority of international male competiton climbers are about 5ft6in and females around 5ft. Doesn't seem to stop them.

I recently climbed with a guy who was 6ft 6in. He could climb better on vertical stuff i could climb better on steep stuff. i didn't lose any sleep over it and neither did he.

Having said that there should be a good variety of routes. There's nothing wrong with setting routes that have big reaches as long as not all of them are.

In reply to biscuit:


Apparently the legendary boulderer, Jim Holloway, was ginormously tall. Of course this meant that his detractors could claim that "everything was just a long reach... or a dyno". < Sighs >

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:

Bit similar to the reports of the 8 yr old climbing 8a ( or whatever age they were i can't quite remember ) and people claiming they only did it because a crimp for us is like a jug to them therefore making the climb significantly easier for them. Bonkers logic.

In reply to Alan_2468:

My ex gf was really chuffed when she met Johnny Dawes. Less so when I pointed out that she was taller than him so I didn't want to hear any more whingeing about "I can't reach." Hmmm, wonder if that why she's my ex-gf?

In reply to Byronius Maximus:


That's true, it's just that routes that are hard for the short tend to be more obvious since it's fairly easy to notice when you can't reach a hold that everyone else can, whereas a taller climber might not notice or realise that a route is harder for them than for others. As a shortarse (5'1" and a bit) I know it's inevitable that I'll have reach issues indoors, routes are set and graded for the average climber and I'm quite a way from the norm, but I only get annoyed about it when walls have unimaginative route-setting and every route becomes an exercise in dyno-ing <cough, Leeds Wall, cough>

FWIW I can recommend Harrogate Wall as a fairly midget-friendly venue with very well set, thought-provoking and interesting routes.

In reply to dreec:

Hi - no worries, I realise that you weren't suggesting that I was a poor climber.

In reply to climbingpixie:

>FWIW I can recommend Harrogate Wall as a fairly midget-friendly venue with very well set, thought-provoking and interesting routes.

Thanks for the tip!

In reply to Alan_2468:
What happens outside?

In reply to Removed User:

No profile info? Maybe should be "mysterious old git"

>What happens outside?".

.......more possibilities for feet placement between "holds" than there are on a plywood wall - deeper indentations for toe placement, unevenly sloped areas on the rock surface for an easier smear, better friction between boot and rock for smears (esp. on grit). Once feet are higher then the arms can reach further.

In reply to Alan_2468:

Need to restate the issue here to prevent going off on a tangent from the OP.

We are talking here about long reachy moves on relatively featureless indoor walls. The sort of move where if a short person were to hang from a jug above, then no matter what body position they assumed, their feet would be dangling above the footholds below.

There are plenty of routes at our usual wall and other walls that we visit that short people CAN climb. We are talking here about making small adjustments to some of the routes that they can't.

In reply to Alan_2468: so you not heard of dynamic movement then?if you cant reach a hold then jump for it

In reply to Alan_2468: and how tall are you alan?

In reply to Alan_2468:

It's all sorted then.

There are no short climbers, just climbers who can't jump high enough!

I'm not sure I'm going to get the sort of discussion I was hoping for on here.

For that reason - I'm out! No more contributions from me.

In reply to Alan_2468:

How mature. What kind of discussion were you hoping for, one where everyone agreed with you?

To be honest, you are annoyed about one very specific type of move. If I've read it right, there must be a gap of 5 foot something between one hold and the next (looking at your example where someone hanging from a jug wouldn't even touch the next hold with their foot). I've never seen a move like that at a wall so either just accept that you'll have to do it dynamically (maybe this highlights a weakness in your ability, even if it is partly brought on by a factor out of your control) or just call it a crap route and do another one.

In reply to Alan_2468: very mature Alan.im 5'7" and ive won a few comps and usually out climb most people at the wall on most problems regardless of their height.sure theres the od problem that i cant do because i cant reach between the holds but literally in the last year at my local wall theres probably been less than 10 problems like this so either your really short(i asked your height bit got no reply),you need to change your wall or the challenge of climbing isnt for you.theres a few 5 foot woman at my local wall who climb harder than most of the men!!

In reply to beastofackworth: Alan never did say how tall (or short) he is! Perhaps he is embarrassed and is worried he is not man enough if he says? I am petite at 5'1" and a bit and do ok - big overhangs (there are a couple of them at UCR) are my big bug bear due to the physics involved, i usually get caught under them, but it is all excuses, i do well on slabs and in corners though.

In reply to Alan_2468: I too have been complaining about routes been to reachy. especially on the new set at my local wall (Stoke Awesome).
I know it's no excuse but it is frustrating. I can defo see Alan_2468's point. There is no friction paint where I climb and I don't always fancy doing a dyno on a finishing move when the options are: stick it, job done or fumble it and drop 5m on to my dodgy ankle.

Pete B 5'8"

In reply to TraceyR: it's even more fun watching tall climbers trying to high step

In reply to beastofackworth:

5'7" is not really that short though... you're a few inches taller than the average woman and only an a couple of inches shorter than the UK male average! If you find the odd problem impossible at your height then it's fairly obvious that for someone with 8 inches less reach is probably going to find more stopper moves.

I do think the height card is overused though, and it amuses me not end when I see people taller than me try to use it on problems that I've done, heh heh. FWIW I've found a combination of using a different wall, not getting hung up about being spanked on 'easy' routes/problems and the occasional awarding of 'moral ticks' and/or temporary colour blindness when a move is really obviously disproportionately hard for the grade helps but the best thing is just to remember that indoors is only training anyway.

In reply to climbingpixie: the average height for a man is 5'10 and a +3 ape.my height is 5'7 and +1/2 so I'm 5" down on reach for an average man and it's only long reaches to crap holds that have to be done static that i would be upset about not doing and use the short card otherwise I just say I'm not strong enough.I too have climbed problems that 6 foot plus guys claim is too reach for them and they then use the weight card even though I'm heavy for a climber of my height.

In reply to Alan_2468: Agreed, I'm not short and rarely find the limiting factor on a route to be an inability to reach the next hold but it's nice when the hardest section of a route isn't something that requires a massive stretch

I understand that this could be a problem but it would seem really sad to me if extra footholds were added to all long reaches. You'd simply do away with big moves and dynos for everyone. The boulder wall I go to has an excellent solution. They just make the problems they want, grade them how they like and then tick a box next to the grade whether it is "morpho" or not. Morpho doesn't necessarily mean tough for the short it also covers things like low undercuts with really high feet that shorties can do relatively easily and everyone else struggles with.

In reply to beastofackworth:

Not short at all. I'm 5'4'' with a +1 ape index, remember that too is a huge contributing factor. I have a very short torso and longish legs (for my height) -the worst dimensions for a climber I do believe.

Anyway, it's not just about not being able to do something if you're short - having one go at it the way it has been set and giving up because 'you can't reach' is one thing, however generally speaking I will try a particular reachy move using all resources available to me and trying it a lot of times. Sometimes I can find a way to do it even though it's not the way it has been set, sometimes I can't. Even supposing I do find a way around it I have expended a lot more energy than some one taller who could do it the way it was intended straight away.

It doesn't matter to me anymore though. It's all subjective. Indoors is only about training- and if I can get up sh1t indoors I have a better chance on more featured stuff outside once winter is over. (not at some of the angus quarries though- horizontal breaks with long reaches between them - now that def suits tall folk).

p.s. I have a lot of weaknesses so sometimes you just have to stop moaning about something like height and work on your weaknesses so that if there is a slight possibility of getting around the height issue you will find it.

Also I have to say I like the idea of a lot of wee footholds on routes. We have some good steep walls at my local and one of the route setters ONLY put screw ons on the wall for feet for one of the lines. There's loads of them. I can't complain about height - but it's made me realise just how crap my core is. Another thing to work. It's all relative.

In reply to Alan_2468: Going back to the original post. If one or two well-placed screw on (tiny) smears were added to a route, I wouldn't have a problem with them provided that it didn't make the route any easier for climbers of average height. The shorties would then be deprived of the reach excuse.

In reply to TonyB:

I don't think anyone's complaining about routes where /everyone/ has to dyno.

I've seen quite a number of routes where I can stand up easily on two decent footholds and one rubbish handhold but shorter people (eg my girlfrined) have to smear both feet while clawing desperately at the crap handhold. You wouldn't spoil this for the tall people by sticking a smaller foothold or two in because it's not a dyno for them anyway.

I guess it's because the disadvantage of being short is turning a small subset of moves from easy to very hard, while the advantage is making a bigger subset of moves a little bit easier - which is a lot less noticeable.

In reply to MelH: It's a good point. Us shorties can train other factors such as better technique, getting stronger for lock offs, deadpointing, getting more flexible for twisting and high steps, better footwork for intermediate smearing etc.

It's when you're short, weak, overweight and inflexible that you're totally screwed,lol!

I know that line you mean with the screw ons. RB got her 1st 7a onsight on that line

In reply to GeoffRadcliffe: We also used to have routes at our wall where a route was a certain grade without features (say 6b+) but 6b with features, I quite liked that, but they seemed to stop it. And during the local bouldering comps they add junior holds to many of the problems so reach isn't such an issue. They could add in shorty holds and if anyone below a certain height uses them then it's cheating.

At the end of the day though, if you can't do a route cos of reach indoors then there's usually plenty more to go at, and the routes are changed after a while. You soon learn which setters set the more 'reachy' routes and who relies on a route being more technical rather than having more spaced holds.

In reply to Sonya Mc:


Agreed! But don't worry about it (I certainly don't). The queue of fellow aspirants probably stretches around the block.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward: Hehe! When I can't get up that route or boulder problem I've been trying I say to myself, 'right, it's time to lose some weight, improve my technique and get strong' then I get home, flop in front of the pc with a sugary cup of tea and cake

Besides, it's freezing up here! I need my layer of blubber to keep warm and keep me going on long winter walk ins.

Bought your book recently btw.

In reply to Sonya Mc:

What? Good God, woman, get crankin'!

< reaches for another chocolate >

Mick

In reply to monkeyotter:

5'8" and can't reach ?

My mate and i were doing a route today where i needed to go very dynamically to a jug. Tried it static and peeled off a couple of times. Big weakness of mine as i am not confident on dynos and i had to make the move before i could make the clip. I did it on the redpoint, dynamically. I'm 5' 8".

My mate is 5'4" and had to do a full on all points off dyno to get it. The point is it was harder for him but we both agreed it was a really good route and enjoyed it - that's the point i guess. Due to his stature he has had to become at dynos and got it in the same amount of tries as me.

A couple of weeks back we saw a guy who was about 6ft 3in on a 6a that is a bit reachy but not a problem. He couldn't make the reaches due to bad technique. We had a friendly chat and he soon did it.

Tall people often climb tall and always try to reach first and forget about feet.

Short people often climb short and are good with their feet, and strong for their size, but forget about moving dynamically.

If there is a route you really can't do just move on. It's only indoors after all.

In reply to SARS: and you should hear them moan!

In reply to Poolie: I feel sorry for my friends Imran and Brian one is something like 8ft tall and the other one must be getting on for a good 11 footer. They often miss out on all the good moves on the routes simply by reaching between the good holds.Most sit starts are virually impossible for them.

In reply to MelH:

as i stated,according to a mans average height and reach i am shorter than average height and have a short reach so what other term would you use other than short??
im lucky that im quite strong and have short legs for my height so am good at high steps but i dont have great technique,im rubbish at toe hooking but im good at locking and good at climbing dynamically so its all good but i do feel having an extra few inches of reach would add atleast a grade to my climbing ability

Why do people insist on moaning about being short.

I am very short but it isn't something I can change. So I've learnt to work on strength flexibility and being dynamic.

Worse comes to worst and a route/problem is very reachy then move on to the next one. It is only plastic.

In reply to biscuit:

As I said, It's no excuse!

I've since done most the routes I was bitchin about, with dynos
I know I'm not that short but the guy I climb with has a good 5" on me
so it tends to be the first weapon in my moaning arsenal. Then again his is always that he is too bunched up. It's just one of those things!
If I was just a bit taller, a bit stronger, and a bit lighter! I'm sure I'd find something else to blame ha ha

Dyno? All very well but not when the route consists of tiny crimps eh?? Some routes will be easier for tall people...simple!!

In reply to chers: so isnt it possible to dyno to small holds then?i must be missing something as i still dyno for small holds,and what most people class as a dyno is infact a lunge anyway.
some routes will also be easier for short people,fair enough being taller is in GENERAL better for MOST climbing but there are always excepions to the rule

In reply to staceyjg:
However, we are mainly more flexible than the taller ones and get ourselves into positions they can't.

And that in itself must be fun

In reply to Charlie_Zero:
Sorry for repeating myself here but I do think its the rt setters problem.
On another post some years ago I mentioned a climbing wall manager who over time learnt to set really good rts.He became very wary of guest rt setters setting to many 'comp style rts'these have a certain style.
For me this is characterised by the feet follow hand/body compression theme.Fine for a few rts but not all,and having to lunge for the chain or as near as because there is nothing to build your feet up on is going to teach bad endgrams but opens up the climber to possible shoulder injury.
The setters I know more recently are very good and take alot of care in what they do and one told me that at a certain wall in london footholds were scarce in the back room hence they become scarce on the rts.... so you have to take this thing into account.
However I would just say there are lots of styles in climbing and talking as a climber with a shortish reach it seems not enough care is made to accomodate this in the rt setting I have experienced a lot of in recent times .

In reply to Charlie_Zero: some of the climbers who have disagreed with you are not really that short. My partner is just under 5ft. She manages to get up quite a few climbs using technique, however she gets frustrated by the tendency of some routsetters to make a climb easier by just making the holds bigger whilst keeping them far apart. Whilst she can dyno, when she has to do this on every move, it leads to elbow tendinitis (catching holds with the arm outstretched).

To give our local wall credit, when she complained they did set some more short person friendly routes. I would agree that adding a few very small footholds will not likely change the grade for the taller climber whilst helping the shorter climbers, as outdoors they can use intermediates that tall climbers with big hands like myself find harder to use.

In reply to Charlie_Zero: all climbers have strengths and weaknesses on every route (apart from warm up routes) you have to work the moves your having trouble with and find another way(this will make you a better climber). I think ounce people have been climbing a while they start getting competative braging what grade they climb. although grades are a good way of tracking your progress just remember why you started climbing and how it felt to solve a problem. if it was easy there would be no satisfaction. (just my openion and im 5'6")

In reply to staceyjg: forget the grade and enjoy the climbing there will be routes that will mean being shorter will be an advantage, im only 3" taller than you.

In reply to Charlie_Zero:

Three of the greatest climbers in British rock climbing history have all been quite short, namely 5' 4": Joe Brown, Don Whillans and Johnny Dawes.

In reply to Charlie_Zero:

I have done a 360 degree turn on this. I dont want to sound like I am moaning but...

I recently have bouldered at both Westway and The Arch. At both places the bouldering was mainly long moves off big holds, which quite frankly is poor problem setting. The number of problems involving jumping was quite frankly ridiculous. Note to route setters - most people rarely jump outside... And although I am a pretty rubbish climber I don't think my reach (5'11") or climbing standard (I managed to flash V5s and 6s) was the reason for this...

To be honest the problem setting quality was way lower than what I am used to in Tokyo. Which is a shame as both venus have great wall space.

Less big moves off big holds, less jumping and more small holds and slopers close together would be good.

Also The Arch needs more problems. I did most of the overhanging problems between V3 - V6 in about a 2-3hr session.

Yes, but not the type of holds I was referring to! And by dyno I dont mean lunge, I mean full on jump to catch it which is sometimes what you have to do when you're short. I know there's good and bad to both but if only tall people would recognise short people have to do it differently and that sometimes that does make it more difficult, I would be happy!!

In reply to SARS: i agree I have been appealing for this change on the walls here in london for a year or more.I have just been at the westway recently on the refurbished leading wall.Its GREAT.....But looking at the harder rts it seems there is a potencial problem still in terms of grading,style etc,perhaps thats a different issue however.
Essentially you are right in all your points.Why rt setting can not alow for poorer holds,subtler and smaller moves ido not know.
Also i maintain the style that is so prevalent in london and maybe elsewhere is bad for the body unless of course you are climbing well within your grade range..uh whats the point of doing that?!!

boulder problems can be body specific...

i dont see the big problem with having some problems that dont suit me that well (Im 5 foot 6). i just move on or try it anyway. Just because the route says it is a v3 doesnt mean it is a v3 for me... if i finish it, i probably was required to do v3+ or v4 moves. but there are also v3 problems i find quite easy since i can do those moves easier than some.

reality is there will be some boulder problems ill never do due to my size. oh well.