UKC

Looking for some advice here guys...
I know its not exactly the ideal place to ask but thought that there's an awful lot of helpful people here that might know something about this...
Well basically I'm sick and tired of my current job, feel like i'm stuck on a treadmill and want something where I can go home and feel like i've made some kind of difference to someone.
Now I already have a degree (economics) and didn't do any sciences at A-Level. What is the easiest way of getting accepted onto a 4year post grad medicine course? Does anyone know whether I must do some science A-Levels first? I have seen that some courses take you on without these being an absolute requirement. As i'm getting on a bit now, (nearly 26!) I don't really want to have to do anymore A-Levels unless I can help it!
Any advice would be appreciated.
Cheers

In reply to mrsmesh:

First, don't worry about your age 26 is not very old. In the US most people start medical school after 4 years of a biology degree. Two of my friends who started the course in the US were over 30 years old.

One friend who moved to Norwich started the medical course at UEA when she was 34.

Have you done any volunteering at the local hospital? or at a charity, old person's home etc?

In reply to wilding:

Thanks for this. It is encouring to hear that you've heard of people starting this course later on in life. Kudos to your friend for starting when they were 34! wow that is impressive.
I haven't started looking for experience, I was initially looking to see whether this idea was first plausible before making my enquiries.

In reply to mrsmesh:

The 34 year old also had a baby during the course!

Definitely plausible, but you really need to start volunteering. Not only will it help you into medical school, it will also you a good indication if the career is suitable! You will be surprised how great it is to volunteer.

Thinking about it, i imagine you could make a long term plan. Volunteer, and also do a biology or science A-level at the same time. I imagine you wouldn't have much difficulty doing the biology A-level if you already have a degree.

In reply to wilding: The impression I got, when looking at my A-Levels and thinking about medicine, was that Chemistry A Level is as important, if not more important that Biology A Level. I could be wrong, but it's worth looking into.

In reply to Mike Nolan:

This is very true. A lot of my friends are applying for medicine straight out of high school this year and Chemistry is generally more important than the Biology A-level.

In reply to mrsmesh:

I have several friends who did fast track medicine in their late 20s. However most of them had a science background already.

I wouldn't listen to any ad hoc advice on here (no offence guys) unless directly specific to a post grad medicine course in the UK - go and check it out yourself.

(I know both Oxford and Cambridge do fast track for example)

In reply to mrsmesh:

Take a look on new media medicine forums, there are no easy ways onto 4 year grad courses, competition is intense, many courses are not interested in your a levels. You have most of the year to wow them on your ucas form. Good luck.

Regards

D

In reply to mrsmesh:

If you're definitely serious about Medicine as a career, I would go for it.

One guy I know, was a fully qualified Engineer, I think he was in his late 30's when he decided to go into Medicine and as far as I know he's now a fully qualified doctor.

In reply to the OP: Interesting question. When I started (20 years ago now, eek!) the year had a wide variety of postgrads and mature students, including an ex-butcher and an ex-milkman. The former is a consultant anaesthetist and the latter (I think) a GP. About half the year were fresh from school, a qaurter had had a year or two out, and the rest were older and doing second degrees mostly. The non-postgrads had done their A levels again, usually chemistry and biology, and in hindsight I would say that maths (stats) would have been very useful - possibly more so than biology.

I have to say if you're shy of doing A levels again then medicine may not be the best choice even with the new curricula there's an awful lot of gratuitous examinations still, best get used to it! They get much worse when qualified as well, but the clinical nature of many of the postgrad exams makes them considerably more stressful than a rather more anonymous written paper...

My feeling was the guys who came to medicine late were very motivated, studied very hard, but still enjoyed being a student again and generally had a more mature attitude than us fresh-faced schoolkids, which is hardly surprising. Comments above re voluntary work are very well made - chances of getting in to med school these days without this are basically nil.

Good luck!
b

In reply to mrsmesh:
Science A-Levels seem to be demanded across the board at undergrad level. I am not sure of post-grad course.
I am sure you have looked into the likely career options once you qualify but bear in mind the the number number of exams and years of training until you finally stop training. Once out of med school it will go something like this:
Foundation year 1 and 2
Basic specialty training for three years- Membership exams at some point to progress to the next stage
Higher speciality training for 3 to 4 years- Fellowship examination towards the end for most specialties.
Depending on speciality and personal preference you may need to do a higher degree at some point in the above (MD or PhD) which will add two to three years.

Do you like working shifts? Throughout your training you will almost certainly be working shifts. With the gradual transition to consultant delivered care you may well be working shifts for the rest of your working life.

Going home feeling you have made a difference to someone does happen occasionally. However, you will see the worst side of people, possibly in a way that you have not previously experienced. As with many doctors you may develop a niggling hatred of people because of their infinite capacity for stupidity!
If wanting to make a difference is your only motivation I would avoid medicine at all costs.

In spite of what you might think from the above I enjoy the job most of the time. At times it can be unpleasant. Mostly these days it is not hard work thanks to EWTD. Pay is pretty good and you are unlikely to be unemployed.

In reply to everyone:

thanks for all the helpful replies guys, they're much appreciated.
obviously the number one factor affecting my decision is the cost of tuition fees and also the cost of simply living.
my gf etc live and work in london, so moving away will be very difficult. however living in london will also be very costly and not something i'd be able to manage without an income. any suggestions?
also i would be limiting the amount of uni's i can apply for if i don't broaden my horizons and look elsewhere other than london. competition for places is huge so i don't want to make it unnecessarily difficult by only applying for uni's in london. how do mature students fund their living expenses as well as their tuition fees? just by taking out loans?

also vark, thanks for your detailed points. laying out the studying there does make it sound daunting however if you look at it as now being your job (to study) rather than just purely 'being a student' i'm sure you'd adopt a different view on things and remain motivated. thats what i'm telling myself anyway! cheers

In reply to mrsmesh:

I know that at Keele, near Stoke on Trent, they do a health foundation year which allows you to brush up on your sciences. If you pass the year, you are guaranteed a place on the degree course - you apply for the whole lot in one go?

http://www.keele.ac.uk/depts/aa/foundationyear/nfy/nfy.htm

In reply to mrsmesh: Post-grad medical courses are very very competitive, and you'll be up against other people who have biology/biomed degrees. Choose the universities you apply to very carefully

In reply to mrsmesh:

My son is also considering doing medicine and his school helpfully ran an orientation evening. Some comments from that:

- it's about as competitive as it gets for university study. Success is c. 1 in 9 of applicants over all.
- all courses listed in their table (~20 med schools) required chemistry; most needed a second science
- A*AA is about entry-level
- the personal statement is like building a CV these days - 2 years volunteer work in a health-related charity or similar de rigeur

My take was pretty much that if you're *certain* that it's your calling, then you'll find a way; if it's just an idea you like the sound of, you'll be weeded out.

In reply to JJL:

>My take was pretty much that if you're *certain* that it's your calling, then you'll find a way; if it's just an idea you like the sound of, you'll be weeded out.

the above is absolute twaddle - how many leave within 5 years to pursue over careers; how many absolutely hate it and find a non NHS cupboard to hide in for the rest of their career, how many are doing it because mummy and daddy are doctors and thats what is expected? A Calling? - you should come and listen to some of the people (the best, of the best) that I work with.

mrsmesh is looking at a graduate course. A good few of the graduate courses (even the better universities) take you based on your degree result and what you've been doing since you left school. So the triple AAA* is wrong.

Regards

D

In reply to mrsmesh:

I looked into it a while ago and GAMSAT exams came up as an option for a few unis. Will be a lot of studying though.

In reply to mrsmesh: Hi there.

Why stick with the idea of a 4 year course? They are uber-competitive to get on and exceptionally intense. I'm 38 (why are you worrying about aged when you are 26???), and in my fourth year of a five year course. I have time to have a life which I would not get on a four year course, and FWIW I declined a place at a 4 year course cos it didn't suit the life I wanted to have. I did arts A levels in early 90s and an arts degree and still got in. Think laterally! Might be worth appearing on another forum, www.newmediamedicine.com/forum. Also, you need to get work experience and voluntary work in a healthcare setting done too. There is a lot to do in terms of getting a place (work expereince, voluntary work, UKCAT, getting right academic quals through a college etc) do but it is perfectly possible along side a full time job if you plan it correctly. Think what unis you can apply to, there are so many permutations of A level requirements, other exams, fees, course types etc. Do a lot of research! Look on medschool webistes for their requirements for a graduate applicant. If you do not meet their requirements, try to get what you need to meet them. If you cannot, then rule that one off the list. PM me if you wish.

In reply to mrsmesh: Generally to do the 4 year post grad you do need the science A leels. There is the option to do a five year degree which includes a foundation year. There are quite a few across the country. I googled 5 year medicine foundation and came up with loads of results. I have included one for you to have a look at.

http://www.medicine.manchester.ac.uk/undergraduate/medicine/coursedetails/i...

If you want any more advice feel free to ask, I am a careers adviser.

In reply to mrsmesh: WRT your query on tuition, When I started looking at graduate medicine courses (I've always rather fancied being an epidemiologist, which somewhat needlessly is taught as medical specialty rather than an academic discipline within healthcare) it was the case that you had to self fund the first year due to the extremely high dropout rate, after which the remaining 3 years would be funded by a full NHS grant.

I would strongly reccomend that you do brush up on your Chemistry, Human Biology and Maths (though the last of which may well be something you're well versed in) before applying as lack of the fundimental scientific grounding is one of the major reasons people struggle and have to drop out, if you have to learn things in order to then understand and learn what you've got to know; it's all likely to go pear shaped quickly.

(For what it's worth, I decided that the foibles of what's desired in an application now seems like a lot of fatuous jumping through hoops, and am applying for PhD's and DPhil's in my own area now)

In reply to mrsmesh:

Given that's all the information's available on the internet nowadays, you've got to ask yourself whether you really need the qualification?

I'm sure there are plenty of places in the world where you can do some voluntary work in order to gain some hand-on experience, where a few mistakes wouldn't be a major problem

In reply to everyone:

thanks for all the comments guys. certainly a lot there to keep me motivated and a lot there for me to read up on.
obviously when applying for the course you must show that you are keen and committed by undertaking extensive works experience etc etc which i would look to do as well.
i just don't know how feasible it will be to undertake chemistry as an a-level whilst holding down a full time job. will it be possible to complete this in one year?

In reply to Dauphin:

If you pause and think about what I wrote for amoment, you'll see that
a) it's not incompatible with people subsequently leaving the profession as it was an opinion about getting into it, not about how you find it once you're there. Plenty of people *think* they want to do things, and then find they don't. My point was that unless you're pretty sure you want to, you won't get the chance to find out.
b) it was reported information set in context as being given to school kids (and their parents) and the A-level grades are a good indication of the standard you'll need. Three Bs and a IIii isn't going to cut it.
c) you've been rather charmless in the way you posted your misunderstanding of what I wrote.

But, as you posting output appears to be up there with your pie input, I guess we shouldn't be amazed when quality suffers a bit, eh?

In reply to mrsmesh:
If you cannot complete a single A level whilst working full time you should abandon the idea of medicine as you will have a series of postgraduate exams to complete whilst working full time that will be more demanding than an A level

In reply to mrsmesh:
I'm currently studying medicine at southampton, and whilst I'm on the five year course not the four year course I'm pretty sure that you don't necessarily need a chemistry A-level get onto the course, I know quite a few people on the four year course without a traditional A-levels background.

Also on the money side, medicine can be quite tough so most people don't get jobs, but I do know a fair few people who manage to work at least on day at the weekend.
If you are truly motivated I would really recommend it.

In reply to mrsmesh:

There were quite a few postgraduate students in my year at medical school. Not all of them had come from scientific backgrounds. You're likely to get on better with some of the more modern medical schools, than Oxbridge and London...

If you're serious, try to spend a couple of weeks on some kind of work-shadowing placement. Have a very cold and calculated look at doctors in their 30s, 40s and 50s. Ask yourself - do I want this person's life. At times, being a doctor can be a fantastic and life-enhancing job. But much of the time, doctors also feel sick/tired and stuck on a treadmill. If you take the plunge, you're looking at 4-5 years in medical school, 2 years of foundation year, then probably 5-7 years of specialist training, depending what you want to do. You need to be 100% certain that it's for you.

Try phoning the postgraduate office in your local hospital or speak to your local medical school undergraduate office about available shadowing placements.

Best of luck.

In reply to mrsmesh:

That is not a hurdle! You can do an A' level easily at nightschool or even consider looking at the open university science courses. I have studied natural sciences and geology with the OU and am very impressed with their teaching material.

If you haven't already done so, you could also look into other medical related professions like nursing, paramedic courses or other shorter courses (Not physiotherapy as i hear there;s a glut).

Hope this helps.

In reply to mrsmesh: I think you should be able to get a Chemistry A level - they seem a lot easier after a degree than they did at the time! And there are plenty of people who manage it in evening classes.

Others have put some good ideas down; work experience is vital, I agree. Basically you need to prove that you're serious about it, and also that as a person you're hard working, a natural leader, and enjoy a challenge, but are still able to go home and relax with some demanding hobby (such as climbing) and express a willingness to learn loads of boring stuff before you get to see any patients, you might just get in!

I agree with what someone else said though - if you want it enough, then you are quite capable of putting the work in and getting a place. God knows how I managed it as an annoying naive 18 year old...

The only thing I was going to mention was that if you don't want to move from London you might struggle - even if you get a place at one of the London medical schools, when you finish and are applying for a job, the Foundation year applications for the London hospitals are extremely oversubscribed so you could well be placed pretty much anywhere in the country for 2 years (As I'm currently discovering...)

If you decide to do it, Good luck!

In reply to mrsmesh:

how weird i saw this topic today, been thinking along very similar tracks.

My biggest concern is, am I like what smarter enough?


I graduated last year with a Media and Cultural Studies degree. I'll be the first to admit it doesn't scream academia. I did manage to get First, with very little work but I can't see it being a huge advantage anywhere. I basically survived the entire education process my keeping my head down and doing the utter bare minimum. I'm currently working in a media job, but what i'm craving more than anything is a challenge.

Medicine has always been something i've considered. As i've often wondered if i could have achieved anything if i had actually put effort in I was thinking about doing the A level route, I could try and take say Biology and Chemistry and see how I do.

I guess because I was drawn towards to the arts/humanities my whole education, i'm not sure how i'll fare in the hard science sphere.

Obviously some careers are not for everyone, how can I find out if I simply have the aptitude? Is there a test or something that provides an indication. I believe in positivity and everything but as the old quote goes

"... if you trust yourself and believe in your dreams and follow your star you'll still get beaten by people who spent THEIR time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy."

In reply to everyone:

thanks guys for all your helpful comments. its really good to hear from other people in this field or people that know certain things about it.

dauphin: thanks for the positive comments. i agree a lot of people do go into medicine even though its not their 'calling'. i know a few friends in this situation who did it just to appease their parents. i thought my calling was banking, how wrong was i when i filled out that ucas form back when i was 17!

nickinscottishmountains: kudos for you for starting late! wow i am truely impressed! i bet you received some strange looks when you told your friends that you were thinking about doing it. how many thought it was just a crazy idea?! the main reason for a 4 year course over a 5 year course was that i'd be finished sooner so would be able to start working and earning $$$ a lot sooner. alongside the fact that i've got a long term gf who i wouldn't imagine would be overly happy having to either commute or move to come see me etc. also seeing as though it would be an intensive course i'd be able to hit the studying hard and basically adopt the studying as my new 'job' rather than fall into being a student again and having too much of a good time if you know what i mean. if i had more of a choice i think i'd prefer the 5 year as like you said you'd have a bit more of a work life balance.

leroy brown: thanks mate, i may be taking you up on that offer, its much appreciated.

kellykettle: thanks for the advice on doing chemistry is definitely something i'm thinking about doing.

vark: good point. i had a feeling i'd be showing a defeatist attitude by grumbling at doing an a-level whilst holding down a job.
my gf is a pharmacist and spends a lot of time doing further studying so i kind of get the idea how much extra work is needed just from looking at how much work she does!

katiep: thanks for the comments and good luck with your course

stevep: very good advice re the work shadowing. i can only imagine that it must feel like the best job in the world at times, but at other times often the worse. especially when having to deliver bad news etc.
definitely has given me things to think about!

helsba: some great points there thanks a lot for those. you're right, getting the a-level shouldn't be a big hurdle, i just need to get my @rse in gear and get organised.
thing about moving is quite a difficult hurdle though...think i'll need to discuss this a lot with my gf. (at the mo she's got a very good job as a pharmacist in a london hospital and is 15 months into her rotation there so doesn't want to move!)

kemics: go for it! as we've seen here there are plenty of people who have started later on in life. i guess though that some uni's may look unfavourably on media studies as an academic subject (not my own thoughts btw) so may require the science a-level(s). don't worry i'd speak to a careers advisor or contact leroy brown in the thread earlier.

thanks again everyone