UKC

Steve Ashworth is a keen winter climber and Lake District winter expert. He has made many first winter first ascents in the Lakes and he often shares his local conditions knowledge through updates on the UKC Forums and on the Epicentre Blog.

In this guest editorial article, he gives his opinion on the ethics of climbing popular summer rock climbs in winter.

Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=3335

In reply to UKC Articles:

Well said Steve. I remember the first time I climbed (The Needle) on Shelter Stone Crag in winter being appauled by the sheer volume of in-situ gear, tat and polish left by summer ascents. Your perspective is refreshing, and realistic.

Cheers, Guy

In reply to UKC Articles: Nice one Steve!

In reply to UKC Articles:

I hope everyone who has put there opinion into the forums debate has a good read of this article which looks at things in a logical calm basis.

best article I have read on UKC for some time.

In reply to UKC Articles:

A well presented argument Steve, it is good to see someone whose ascents are often criticised answering their critics. Your photos on their own negate many of the "not winter routes" arguments.

I have climbed a number of lakes "rock" routes and will continue to do so. In fact I have a "secret book of secret things" which I am slowly working my way through, unfortunately I think you have had a peek at it and I keep having to cross routes out because you beat me to them (that and the reported grade being beyond me).

I have a nagging doubt though, what are your views here:

A crack leads up a wall for a pitch on a mountain crag which holds hoar and snow, the route has few footholds when wearing crampons. The route obviously can be climbed in winter BUT the style of climbing is yard, pedal, yard pedal, yard, foothold. How acceptable is this route given the potential amount of aesthetic damage per ascent. Do you think we need to consider this when selecting routes to climb?

I stood underneath the route in question(can you guess?) but gizzarding had lead to an inadequate rack. On the day I thought the route to be in acceptable condition and an acceptable proposition but only just!

In reply to 3leggeddog:

To Steve: very well put Steve.

To 3leggeddog: If Steve has seen your book can I have a look?

Saxon?

In reply to UKC Articles: interesting take on the debate, only thing i didnt see Steve mention is probably the most important from a climbers perspective and that is the damage to rock on the harder routes. turf can grow back, broken edges cant. Axes and crampons are much less forgiving than skin. I remember climbing punsters crack in summer after it had had one winter ascent and was appauled at the damage to the soft mica schist. I do think winter climbers should hold their hands up and admit in the fever for new routes an element of common sense is often left at the car.

In reply to Erik B:

I do think winter climbers should hold their hands up and admit in the fever for new routes an element of common sense is often left at the car.

Are you sure it is 'often' left at the car Erik?

In reply to Erik B:

Turf can grow back?

Where are you proposing that the soil that inevitably gets removed with turf will magically appear from?

In reply to Exile: Just because a rock climb has a bit of hoar on it, or a superficially covering of powder does not mean you are not dry tooling. Winter climbing should stick to ice, snow and turf - with sections of rock linking them. Under the articles ethics it would be ok to climb left wall if it looked wintery - I know if I saw someone tooling up left wall I would throw a few rocks at them!

In reply to timjones:


Presumably the same place that it came from; a slow process of ecological succession... Not sure that this has much bearing on the environmental argument though as the time scales are too large, and probably not on the aesthetic argument either for the same reason. After all the rock too will erode and weather if you give it long enough.

In reply to Rory Shaw:

Hope/bet you wouldn't!

That hardly made any sense to me.

Plus, it starts with one of those things that tries to undermine the points that one side makes by undermining the people who make them, and when he says it's a 'selfish argument made by hypocritical rock climbers', is Steve saying that he has a full understanding of the personalities and motivations of people who speak out? That's quite a high pedestal he seems to be sitting on.

I don't have much problem with winter climbing on summer lines to be honest, and have never been appalled by scratches. Also, I'm sure that committed activists like Pete Harrison, Dave macLeod or indeed Steve himself have pretty sound motivations and judgement, and that winter climbing is as valid as summer (kinda), the article still seemed like a bit of a grumpy ramble.

In reply to Rory Shaw:

Winter climbing should stick to ice, snow and turf - with sections of rock linking them.

Why?

In reply to Niall Grimes:

It made sense to me, but it took a few re-reads. I agree with a lot of it, but the article could certainly use a bit of polishing/ editing to make a more compelling case.

I think that the biggest problem is that in dismissing the aesthetic argument quite so easily, he fails to justify why such ascents should be restricted to 'mountain' crags (or even winter conditions) as he seems to suggest in the 2nd paragraph. It would interesting to hear his thoughts on this.

In reply to Niall Grimes: Very well put. Agree 100%, a mixed up and fumbling article.

In reply to Niall Grimes:

No, I didn't think it did much to further 'the cause'. All sounded a bit negative.

It's only a matter of time before Original Sin, Ringwraith, maybe even Welcome to the cruel world, get climbed in winter. The problem seems to me to be mainly a Lakeland one where there aren't many harder (none summer) lines to go at. Does it matter if those routes get hooked up? Personally, I don't think so. Compared to the massive scars (aka paths) that criss cross the Lakeland fells, I don't think a few scratches is such a big deal.

In reply to UKC Articles:

Steve, would you climb Left Wall with axes and crampons if you considered it to be in acceptable winter condition? If not, why not?

I ask out of interest. Personally I am in two minds about the whole issue.

The article seems to amount to "I enjoy it so it's OK".

This sentence seems particulalry odd

"I am talking about routes on mountain crags in winter condition here, not dry tooling" which seems to confuse people."

So why is dry-tooling wrong but climbing rock with a dusting of snow OK? In fact what is the difference but the colour?

In reply to UKC Articles:

I'm afraid he lost my confidence when he said:

'I am talking about routes on mountain crags in winter condition here, not "dry tooling" which seems to confuse people. I'm not going to enter a debate on what constitutes winter condition as I think that decision lies with the climber.'

So he leaves out perhaps the most contentious issue; winter conditions.

All felt like a rather waffling self-justificaiton to be honest.

In reply to UKC Articles:

I spent this summer mainly in the northern corries, soloing and leading alot of lines that were summer/winter routes, and some summer only some winter only lines, and I thought alot about how we damage the crag, and the crag environment.

summer climbing has three main issues:
erosion
polish
gardening

-erosion and detracts massively from the aesthetic of the whole mountain
-polish detracts from the aesthetic of the route, and the quality of the climbing
-gardening improves the quality of the climbing,(summer only) but detracts from the quality of the climbing in winter. it also near permanently destroys the opportunity for plant life.

winter climbing also has some issues
-scratching
-damage to holds

-scratching does detract from the aesthetic of the route, but does not change the climbing itself drastically (depending on the rock type) scratching will never make a hold as smooth as polishing. retaining the rough surface not only allows summer climbing, but also allows soil a surface to build up on, and plants a place to take root.

-serious damage to holds is a real issue, as it detracts from everyones experience of the route. however, few routes which see any real winter traffic have "key holds" which are completely irreplaceable through other similar sequnces, plus winter climbers avoid tiny easily damaged hooks anyway; because theyre tiny hooks!

both styles can co-exist quite happily, and for each, having the other on the same routes has its downsides,but in terms of damageto aesthetics, the environment, and the route itself, summer climbers are just as much to blame when we consider all three.

In reply to Tom Briggs:


Good article which brings together a lot of good points. It's also nice to see a lot of photos of real winter routes, I get the impression that a lot of people who are less experienced don't really have a good idea of what a mixed climb in good condition should look like.


I really don't think these comparative arguments are intellectually honest. Damage is damage is damage. Just because there's something worse going on at the same time doesn't make the scratching any shallower.

Another point about a "few" scratches. If we have a run of good winters in the Lakes what will some of the middle grade routes look like in ten or twenty years time when "few" has turned to "many"? *If* we believe that we should moderate our treatment of crags in winter then the time to do that is now and not when the damage may be extensive in ten or twenty years time.

As someone who's done plenty mixed routes I'm in two minds about it all. I think there have to be limits on what is and isn't acceptable but I'm struggling to come up with a clear picture of what they should be.

Out of interest, here on UKC (and perhaps in general), it is common to take an issue, pump it up to make it 'contentious', whereupon people rage their opinions and fly off into the furthest point of extremes (eg, would someone tool their way up Left Wall).

But what examples are there of winter climbing destroying summer rock climbs. I'm not talking about the Millstone issue - that seems to have been carried out from a point of total cluelessness - but more generally, in the Lakes, Wales or Scotland, what are the examples?

In reply to Exile:

<Winter climbing should stick to ice, snow and turf - with sections of rock linking them.

Why?>

because anything else is rock climbing and doesn't need ice axes and crampons?

In reply to Niall Grimes:


Quite. I'm trying to think of some. Erik mentions Punsters Crack and cites soft rock as a reason for the level of damage. I think of Tower Ridge and Eagle Ridge which both get a lot of traffic in both Summer and winter but do not seem to be particularly badly affected.

In reply to UKC Articles:


I really don't think this is true. Climbers place their chalked hands on

rock not vegetation. In order to significantly change PH levels massive

amounts of chalk would have to be physically pumped into the vegetation.

Chalk has a PH of 9 which would actually benefit the vegetation if were

basic.

In reply to Erik B:

We got up at 5 in the morning the other week and walked up to scrubby for 2 hours to find our objective Hrothgar out of condition. We even did the first turfy pitch to make sure it was out of condition, but then traversed off, wasting the day.

I take offence that new route fever leads winter climbers to abandon common sense, as it simply is not true.

In reply to Removed User: Not done Eagle Ridge, but did Tower Ridge in both winter and summer. I thought the crampon scratches were just part of the ambience of the rock and, much like the way grey heair does to a gentleman, made it quite distinguished.

In reply to bull2010face:

look at lichen, the most common rock-growth. Acidic isn't it?

In reply to UKC Articles:


Good article by the way.

In reply to bull2010face:
i think the point about chalk is valid, sure climbers place it on rock, but then it rains....
and if a whole route gets a thorough dusting every day, there will probably be a noticeable difference in the soil pH in the area.

and it may benefit some species, but it would also harm many.

In reply to Franco Cookson: did a similar thing on buachaille etive mor a few weeks ago, and it wasnt even an established rock route!

In reply to : Walking a long way and finding your route of choice is out of nick is part and parcel of the game. If you get out enough then it balances out, or you'll make more informed decisions in future!

Enjoyed the article.

Andy

In reply to UKC Articles: I thought the argument of winter climbing in lowland crags was the issue not mountain crags? Or is there a community of rock climbers who despise winter climbing no matter what manner it forms?

In reply to Steeve:

Taking into account the quantities climbers leave it really couldn't be

relevant.

In reply to Removed User: interestingly, i climbed direct direct in summer after the FWA (only winter ascent at that point) and the crux appearred overhang appeared damaged to me but didnt make the route harder. the rock type and route type is critical in the argument. there is absolutely no justification for doing a FWA of an E grade summer route which has soft fragile rock and which relies on small flakey edges IMO it is common sense to me. the guys doing the hard FWA's of summer routes are experienced and know exactly what they are heading on to with their tools.

Franco, get a grip, offended my arse. hope you didnt rip any unfrozen turf out on that first pitch, despite your new route fever getting the better of you and 'just checking' to see and confirm to your feverish brain that it wasnt in nick

In reply to UKC Articles:
I disagree, each ascent will leave a thin layer on most holds right?
so suppose theres two ascents every day for 60% of the summer, this will have an effect.

dust a patch of soil with chalk every day all summer and see if the pH changes.

In reply to Removed User:

Woo cowboy hold your horses...what level of damage on Punsters? after the FWA there were some superficial scratches on a few holds, by the summer of 97 after some weathering, schist is very green, i couldn't see any damage. There have been a few ascents since so do not know the situation now.

There was no turf or ice on Savage Slit last time I did it but there was no way on earth you could have climbed it without winter kit.

In reply to Exile: because its so polished theres only one way of getting some friction!

In reply to Conquistador of the usless: looked trashed to me mate after your ascent, maybe you will admit it was the only low point on an otherwise very impressive winter career , I can see why you did it back then but I think scotland moved on a bit from those experimental forays in the 90's. it appears wales and the lakes are going through those same forays now 20 years later, but there are a lot more folk winter climbing now so I guess its more noticeable.

just to reiterate Im not having a go at your ascent of punsters, perhaps a bit like logical progression it highlighted what the best way forward in scotland was at an important juncture

In reply to Tom Briggs:

BMC open meeting to discuss it?

In reply to Niall Grimes:

In my earlier post I asked Steve whether he would climb Left Wall with axes and crampons, not in any sort of rage, but, by taking an extreme case, to establish whether he would in fact draw a line anywhere. If a line is to be drawn somewhere, then it is bound to be arbitrary (what defines a "mountain" crag? When is a summer route so classic that it should not be scratched with axes and crampons?). I think that the drawing of that arbitrary line can can only be done through debate and accepted concensus. A consensus might put whole areas or rock types or individual crags, or, indeed, certain individual classic rouites off limits. Part of that process of reaching a concensus will inevitably continue to involve some activists testing the water. Any concensus will certainly not be to everyone's taste.

Another question for Steve: If you do not consider that scratching clean, established summer rock climbs with axes and crampons to be a problem in winter conditions, what have you got against people dry-tooling them?

In reply to UKC Articles: "Encouraging winter climbers to climb winter only lines on winter only crags is environmental terrorism...in fact winter is probably the best time to interact with these untouched ecosystems as a lot of the vegetation is dormant."

Brilliantly circular argument! What?

In reply to timjones: well, where it came from in the first place.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I think your point about Left Wall was a completely reasonable one. I'd think Lord might sport an ice smear sometimes - why not that then. It'd be a travesty if routes like that ever got climbed with winter gear. So you are absolutely right to ask where the line is.

In reply to UKC Articles: I found that a bit of strange read, some valid points but someone hit on what i think is the main issue. A route like snickersnack you are inevitably damaging the route using tools on it. Torquing a crack, hooking an edge, front pointing an edge. You are, i repeat you are affecting an already established summer line. The degree to how much you damage the route should be down to the climbers judgement and conscience. Just because it looks in winter nick doesnt mean you are not going to permenantly effect the route. I feel it is down to the climber themselves to make this call.
I would be really pissed off if i came to the crux on snickersnack in summer for example to find the crucial edge slightly damaged or the crucial fingerlock doesnt quite work anymore! Equally i would feel pissed off if i started laying off a torque and i felt the rock crumble! Id be pissed off with myself.
I am btw equally as much a summer climber as a winter climber. Im certainly not comfortable with the developments over recent years where the shift from mixed climbing has moved to established summer rock routes... where does it go now.. ascents of classics on dinas mot or if conditions prevail during a harsh winter an ascent of cemetry gates? Far fetched eh?

In reply to Robert Durran: Yeah, but in a debate, if you go so far away from what you're talking about then what's the point. It's like me saying that I think a going a bit over the speed limit is okay on a quiet motorway then someone asking if therefore i think it's acceptable to do 500mph down the M1.

I think it's much more useful to talk about actual examples, rather than the most hypothetical.

In reply to UKC Articles: I think this is a very generalised article that doesn't take into account local or regional ethics and it makes some dictatorial statements to counter any potential counter arguments, as Grimer has said.
Here in N Wales we're trying to establish an ethic where by classic summer rock routes that are dry, hoar free (a bone of contention in itself I know), turf and ice free are to be left unclimbed in winter. In fact on the Glyder Fach topo in the new Winter supplement (due out on Saturday!) there is an area of such rock labelled as "out of bounds" to help prevent some of the 'dry rock' classic summer routes from getting trashed. Now of course you can go out and do whatever you want in the hills but there are no 'rules' but just like with bolting there are ethics and guidelines which are there to help protect local crags.

Yes it is an aesthetic issue but what is really wrong with not wanting clean summer rock routes from getting trashed? It looks a mess and why ruin something that is scratch free? The scratches look awful, axes damage cracks, a clumsy second skates their crampons everywhere, check out any established winter rock route to see the damage, and this doesn't wash off like chalk on the boulders, which incidentally I thought was a very poor comparison to make in the article.

Maybe we're lucky here in N. Wales in that there's loads of turfy, icy mixed routes, both following summer and new lines still to go at, so we can afford not to sacrifice these routes.

In reply to UKC Articles: Christ, snap, just repeated everything said above. I think the BMC need to get on this and have an open discussion, and try and draw guidelines. If not only to guide the young climbers coming through who dont really know where/what the score is.

In reply to chummer:


Thumbs up to all of the above! Someone speaking sense at last.

In reply to Niall Grimes:

You appear to have missed the point of my taking an extreme example. I and, I suspect, virtually everyone else (Steve included?) would be against climbing Left Wall with axes and crampons: ie there must be a line somewhere! It is yet to be established where that line should lie. Likewise,the fact that you consider driving at 500mph on a motorway to be too fast in any conditions implies that you think there should be some speed limit, though exactly what that should be is open to debate.

In reply to chummer: Good post chummer!!!! I second everything you say!!!

In reply to chummer: Good post Chummer!!!!!!! I second everything you can lead. In Winklepickers!

In reply to UKC Articles:Sanity at last,great article Steve Ashworth.

In reply to Removed User: Come on now Eric make your mind up,you cant have it both ways.

In reply to Niall Grimes: You can try Grimer!
Robert Durran; I see you point but I think the line, if it was to be drawn would be a very wavy one, my point being that the climber has to make their judgement on a route by route basis, or in the case of the Cromlech, crag by crag basis based on the local ethics.

It's not an exact science and often 'mistakes' have to be made in order to highlight the problem and help set the parameters of what is acceptable, which incidentally has happened here in Wales with winter ascents of some clean summer lines resulting in a feeling in retrospect that it was maybe 'wrong' to have climbed them.

This resulted in a large group of active winter climbers who operate extensively in our local area (though they may not live in the local area) meeting up and discussing what our ethical stand point should be (if we should have any at all) for the new guide. It's obvious that not everyone will agree but the majority view was respected.
This was not a BMC thang although I do wonder whether they should get involved just like they do on bolting issues by issuing guidelines to specific areas, if only to add some sort of clout to the preferred ethics stated. This is of course a total minefield and I would rather be out giving Grimer a very tight rope then getting too involved on here

In reply to chummer:

So are you guys trying to set up a sort of winter climbing version of a 'bolting agreement' where there'd be a ban on crags. It'd be great to see something constructive rather than all this bitching.

In reply to chummer:

Yes, extremely wavy, but a concensus is still needed!


I am not sure whether the judgement can satisfactorily be made by individual climbers, since clearly individual opinions vary so much. Yes, the local position need to be reached through sensible discussion. Incidentally, the article had a picture of a winter ascent of a classic route on Gimmer; I'm not sure one could successfully argue that Gimmer is any more a "mountain" or a less "classic" crag than the Cromlech! It's all a bit of a minefield.....

In reply to UKC Articles:

.....and would anyone like to put their hand up and say they would be prepared to make a winter ascent of Integrity on Sron na Ciche - a just as classic rock climb on a mountain crag as Savage Slit is, and both are as marvellously aesthetic and sensuous rock experiences as each other except that, oh, one is already really scratched up by crampons and axes.....

In reply to Robert: Integrity - I don't see why not in theory. Again, it depends on the nick on the day. Partner and I looked at Talisman on saturday which just does not look like a natural winter line, but is a 3 star cairngorm summer classic, whihc has been done in winter. It basically didn't look very appealing, all be it, it was lightly whited and probably in nick.

Andy

In reply to andyinglis:

I just don't buy this "white" thing. Are you telling me that a covering of powder on Integrity would mean it would get less scratched - clearly not! Yes, your (and my) personal satisfaction would be greatly enhanced if it was in "nick" (ie easier to climb with axes and crampons than without). Indeed we wouldn't climb it if it wasn't.

If someone wants to go and climb Savage Slit with axes and crampons when it is not in any way white then I simply don't have a problem with it - it is causing no further damage than a winter ascent. Personally I would feel rather sad if Integrity was similarly scratched. I remember some people getting an appalling vitriolic slagging off in these forums for dry-tooling Fingers Ridge; if they thought they were doing a winter ascent, then they were certainly deluded, but that was their problem. Thay may have been having fun though. They were certainly not doing any more damage than most winter ascents.

In reply to BrettB:

An how long do you envisage that will take?

In reply to UKC Articles:

Sorry if this has been touched on higher up, but I haven't the time to read the whole thread.

I'm not much of a winter climber and certainly not up to much in the way of mixed climbing, but generally speaking, I've not got a problem with a few scratches on mountain routes and I'm happy to see the sort of climbing Steve is advocating here. Neither does it seem to me to be inconsistent with the truth that summer climbing has a greater overall impact than winter climbing on mountain crags.

However, I don't think his article does much to support the winter mixed argument. It seems that the main thrust of the article being that the environmental argument in opposition to winter climbing doesn't stand up. Well I'd agree, but since when has an environmental argument been part of the summer only climbing advocate's arsenal?
I've only ever seen these ascents being decried as they scratch the rock and detract from the aesthetic of the climb. No doubt the issue has been raised, but it hardly seems to be people's primary concern.

For Steve to spend the entirety of the article attacking a bit of a straw man, then brushing off the genuine concern of some with the quite flippant penultimate paragraph is pretty ill-considered. As such I think this article does little to support winter mixed activities and that as that was surely the intention, it is a poorly thought out read.

In reply to UKC Articles:

Steve mentions that winter climbing could be beneficial for some plant life. Is this based on research or just a reasoned opinion?

In reply to timjones:

In some places not long at all, 5 years. I'd expand on this but it's a diversion from what is a useful discussion.

In reply to Niall Grimes:

Nobody is actually claiming that summer climbs are being destroyed are they? Damaged, yes, and harmed aesthetically, but not destroyed.

On that basis, the only one I can think of is Manx Wall, which has unarguably been badly scratched by the big increase in winter ascents. However, it probably has more winter ascents last year than rock ascents, so maybe it's become a winter route that is occasionally climbed in summer

In reply to Niall Grimes:

>But what examples are there of winter climbing destroying summer rock climbs?

I climbed Manx Wall in Snowdonia about 5 years ago. It's a 3 star classic mountain HS and was covered in crampon scratches. It didn't affect the climbing, but it certainly affected my enjoyment of the route because the rock looked a mess.

I'm not particularly precious about the rock in this country, but I can say I like climbing attractive rock, it's part of the pleasure. Now Manx wall is scratched by a few die-hard winter enthusiasts, it will never be the same again for a much larger number of summer climbers.

In reply to Toreador: Yes, I had heard that that climb was looking scratched, but as you say, Clogwyn Du does seem to have become a very important winter crag.

In reply to Toreador:

Well ain't that funny! I no sooner posted and saw that you'd referred to the same route. Do you really think it now has more winter ascents than summer? I wouldn't know..

In reply to UKC Articles:

I wonder how many ascents a summer rock climb needs before it starts to become polished, compared with how many winter ascents the same route would need before it became quite scratched up.

In reply to clams:

The guess is on the basis of having been up there several times in summer and never seen anybody climbing it. And twice in winter, on both occasions it was climbed more than once.

So conclusive proof

In reply to Toreador:
The UKC logbooks don't help as it's not exactly a trade route in any conditons.
Winter 3 ascents in 2010
Summer 1 in 2011 (which is presumably somebody who meant to log a winter ascent!), 5 in 2010, none in 2009, 2 in 2008, 1 in 2007

In reply to UKC Articles:

For me this issue boils down to this issue of "whiteness". If its just superficial hoar then I don't think classic summer lines should be climbed in winter. If the winter ascent makes use mainly of ice in cracks (as Dave M said about Anubis) then fair enough. However, these kind of mixed winter ascents that rely on hooking actually cause more damage than dry-tooling in summer would, as at least then you would have an unrestricted view of the holds and could avoid any misplaced or ill-judged placements?

The idea of someone scratching up Sron Na Ciche on Skye is really quite appalling (in my opinion). By all means if there was a proper layer of ice or a turfy route could be followed, but scratching up a beautiful Gabbro slab just because it has a cosmetic white layer of frost which offers no protection to the rock would be horrible (and surely not at all enjoyable).

I will never be a good enough climber to climb the kind of routes pictured in the article in winter, but I would hope to be able to tackle a good number of them in summer. I think there is a risk that the ambitions of those at the top could damage the enjoyment of a great number of punters like me on these kind of contentious climbs. My two cents anyway.

In reply to UKC Articles:

Just read the article again, engineers chimney V6? well thats another one of them I have climbed. Climbers don't need to train any more, just get old. From IV to V6 in 15? years, that approximates to half a grade every 5 years. A bit of a distraction there, my apologies

In reply to UKC Articles: well said Sargey.
I think the numbers are important. Whilst there is a lot of suitable and uncontentious mixed climbing yet to be opened up in the Lakes the majority of people will be more likely to go where others have previously.
Lakeland is accessible to large numbers of climbers for whom perhaps Scotland is too much of a trip to do often, if all of the harder routes put up are on established summer rock climbs (with the route knowledge and gear placements all there) where is a keen winter climber going to go to test themself and their shiny new tools?
There may exist the same issues in Scotland but the Lakes classics do seem to be becoming fair game to any treatment Steve Ashworth et al care to give them.
I have to say i thought the article lacked coherence and seemed to amount to a "It doesn't matter and I don't care"

In reply to UKC Articles:
I'm really glad Steve has taken time out to answer his critics, off which I have been one. Its an interesting article but Steve seems to imply that "winter climbers" are somehow different from "rock climbers" - here's a quote from the article:
"What the argument actually is about is aesthetics, it is a selfish argument deployed by hypocritical rock climbers wishing to preserve what they think a rock climb should look like"

Now Steve is right, the argument is about aesthetics, I'm against scratching up classic rock climbs, but far from seeing myself as a hypocritical rock climber, I just see myself as a climber. I climb in winter albeit not to Steve's standard, but have done many of the scottish classics and I also winter climb in the lakes. This isn't a winter climbers versus rock climbers issue, as many of us do both without scratching up rock routes.

The problem here is not only the occasional hard winter ascent by Steve and his partners, its the example these ascents set to others. Early in the article dry tooling was mentioned and dismissed by Steve and conditions were treated in an equally dismissive manner "You know if the route you did was a winter one". If mixed winter climbing and dry tooling (I accept they are different) become popular, we will see significant scratching on mountain routes, and if accepted how do we tell the Callums of this world that dry tooling engineers slabs in May will cause any less damage than a so called "winter ascent".

To be honest conditions don't make a lot of difference, scratches will occur if the route is "in nick" or not. I applaud what is happening in North Wales as mentioned in chummers post above and that turf and ice free are to be left unclimbed in winter. He mentions they are lucky in north wales with loads of turfy, icy mixed lines to go at, I can assure him there are in the Lakes too, its just that clean summer lines provide quick and easy gear placements.

I accept there is a place for this style of climbing and it belongs in Scotland on high mountain crags that are often in winter condition. The Lakes offer some fantastic rock climbing, Scafell being equal to Cloggy (possibly better) it would be a shame to see the classic VS-E3 lines scratched up by the elite and for us punters to have no say in the matter

In reply to thegoatstroker: .Is it not always the case that those who cannot gain general consent for their side of the argument just do what they are going to do anyway?

Its not their sport that's important. Its them.

In reply to Dave Ferguson: hear hear.
With regard to conditions I agree the 'white' thing is very superficial and damage is still done, but it is a useful indicator of general winter conditions and therefore help when deciding if something is in or not.

To quote a mate of mine, 'if it's easier or possible to climb the route with rock boots and bare hands on the day then it's not in nick and should be left' or something like that, but it's a pretty good measure i think as to what is fair game, particularly in Wales.

In reply to UKC Articles:

Liked the observation:

If a line is truly great then the climbing and positions will capture you, if in summer you are distracted by a few scratches then you have missed the point.

Couldnt agree more; I think a lot of people are choosing to be offended by scratches. If you want to get upset you probably will.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

I certainly don't want to get upset, but some bits of rock seem especially aesthetic to me and I would feel sad to see them scratched. I mentioned Integrity as an example earlier in this thread. I might not mind so much about other equally classic routes on which the aesthetic quality of the rock does not seem to contribute so much to their quality. For me Centurion would be such a route. The Needle would be somewhere in between and I am in two minds about it. But these are subjective views and others will disagree.....

In reply to Jamie Bankhead: Not at all!

Part of the aesthetics of my climbing experience is the rock itself, especially in the mountains where it can often be at it's most pristine, Jubilee Climb in the Pass springs to mind as does Demtrius above Idwal slabs (not that I'm saying these specifically are winter contenders) both with some beautiful rock.

Basically a lot of mountain rock here is very grit like, it's feel and aesthetics is part of the attraction, just like on the grit itself.

I don't choose to be distracted by the scratches, I am actually distracted by them just like I would be on the grit. There is nount better in my view than to climb beautiful rough 'natural' rock. Obviously the moves and the surrounding environment play a major role too.

It is clearly a very subjective thing, some folk, like me, don't want to see the rock scratched or damaged on a classic pure rock line, others it seems don't draw any specific pleasure from this aspect of climbing. Fair enough but don't rubbish our view, it's equally valid and very real.

In reply to UKC Articles:
Is everyone not missing a point here? Yes climbing can damage the enviroment e.g. eroded paths, crampon scratches on rock, chalk damaging vegetation etc. However has no-one considered that there are enviromental issues e.g. climate change that are far more important than damage to a small area of rock that may not even be visible from more than a couple of metres away, and that through our actions we contribute to these changes. If someone drives from London to Scotland for a weekends winter climbing (and in the proccess emits a huge amount of dangerous greenhouse gases) is this not far worse than leaving a few scratches on a remote bit of rock. If you think that comments such as these are irrelevant to this debate or have no place on UKC are you not failling to look beyond your own enjoyment and see the impacts of your actions on the wider world? Damaging rock should be least of our worries given the way climate change could affect our mountain enviroment e.g. imagine if Snowdon never had snow on it in winter or every Alpine glacier disappeared.

In reply to UKC Articles: So who on earth poured petrol down Gable Crag and then set light to it?!? That's an anecdote I had never heard before.

In reply to matthew dalby: The logical conclusion of your agument is that damage to the rock is not really a problem therefore chipping etc is really not that important.

Environmental damage is not always the same as ecological damage - plants generally grow back (very slowly on the Cairngorm Plateau) but rock doesn't and in the case of Grit and sandstone, breaking through the outer hard layer can lead to rapid erosion and destroy the amazing beauty of the rock. We have a finite amount of rock in the UK and should gaurd it well, and recognise the huge diversity of environments we climb on in the UK.

In reply to TobyA:

Because it's not true. I think this was (possibly apocryphally) done to Greatend in Borrowdale many years ago to create Banzi Pipepline and Nagasaki Grooves but that wouldn't have worked as well with Steve made up article.

In reply to UKC Articles:

I don't winter climb any more, so maybe shouldn't have an opinion - however; I am uneasy with winter ascents of classic rock routes on Gimmer, Sca Fell etc. Folks say it is only a few scratches; well it is when the route has seen one ascent - but when it has had 50 or hundreds it will trashed.

Have a look at the path down from the Devil's Kitchen and tell me that routes, even ones on hard volcanic rock, can survive that kind of crampon traffic - (extreme example I know).


Chris

In reply to neil the weak:

Not even true in the case of Great End. There was originally wood/shrub cover over the crag but a natural fire in the 1960s removed most of it to reveal the crag. The Borrowdale Cleaning Gang then set to work on it, essentially stripping the crag bare - they worked in unison with three or more on abseil pulling at the vegetation on a ledge until it came away. It was effectively industrial cleaning.

The depth of debris at the foot of Great End Corner was reckoned to be 40ft deep! Even in the early 1980s it was still substantial and springy enough to act as a super bouldering mat!

ALC

In reply to UKC Articles: Am i missing something here? from the look of the pictures in the article, ive had thicker ice on my windscreen and a plastic scraper gets rid of that pretty quickly. So are some of you saying that little frosty coating on the rock protects the rock from hardened metal crampons??? BULL.

In reply to HATTSTER: I wonder if this climbing of out of condition routes is more prevelant in England and Wales rather than Scotland because the right conditions are less frequent?

In reply to Fawksey: I mean. If we got good winter conditions every year we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

In reply to a lakeland climber:

And summer rock climbers have the cheek to claim that winter climbing does damage ;(

In reply to matthew dalby:
In summery your argument seems to be that nobody can ever disagree with anything if there is something else more serious happening elsewhere.

Should punching someone in the face be ignored because there is terrorism and genocide in the world?

In reply to Fawksey: I'm afraid we would Fawksey as this is a discussion on ascending summer rock routes in winter in the Lakes (and Wales). What condition they're in isn't necessarily the issue, it's the damage done to the summer rock routes regardless of condition that is the bone of contention.

In reply to Erik B:

It was minus 10, so yes the turf was frozen.

In reply to Dave Ferguson: The elite should be able to climb how they like too. Why should punters take precedence? Is it just a matter of numbers?

In reply to Franco Cookson: Good to see how mature the youth of today is. lol

In reply to pamplemouse: eh?

In reply to UKC Articles:

I don't enjoy seeing scratched rock climbing classics even though I recognise the right of winter ascents on routes such as Bowfell Buttress and Manx Wall. I think the hypocrisy argument in the article is completely bogus: all of us damage the rock and the rock environment, but some of us much faster than others. Rock scars from crampons and axes take a longer time to 'heal' than chalk does to wash off or even plants to grow back. Also bad behaviour from a few climber (if this petrol incident is even true) doesn't typify the behaviour of most. As for the ethical point I've witnessed a far larger proportion of unethical winter ascents (routes out of condition) than summer ones.

In reply to Offwidth:

OK I'll switch on devils advocate mode

I'd suggest that we often see mass co-ordnation of damage to the environment by rock climbers. What else can we call the actions of some of the work parties that set out to clear vegetation off a crag to further their own climbing ambitions?

I wouldn't go so far as to say I 100% disagree with the practice but I'm very uneasy about it and it probably does more real environmental damage than many thousands of winter ascents by climbers climbing in good style with no pre-cleaning of their chosen routes.

In reply to UKC Articles:

So in the Lakes context do people feel that it is just some of the newer additions to those rock routes done in winter condition that should be avoided or are we talking about Bowfell Buttress, Botrill Slabs, Engineer Slab, Pisgah Buttress etc as well?

Are people suggesting that there should 'normally' (ie not verglass) be ice or turf on the route for it to be a winter target?

Do people feel the number of Summer stars should be a deciding factor?

In reply to Exile:

The winter and summer lines of Botteril's slab differ on the main pitch - the winter line takes the moss in the corner. I think the first and last pitches are common though. Not sure about Pisgah Buttress, does anyone climb it in summer? The same goes for Tricouni Slab (an easier version of Botteril's) and Keswick Brothers' Climb.

When Cleasby, Matheson and Phizacklea did the first winter ascent of Jones' Direct on Scafell pinnacle they made the comment that it should only be climbed under good conditions so as not to damage the rock.

I must admit to feeling ambivalent about such ascents - in selfish mode I've done several and enjoyed them; in sustainable mode I'm not impressed. Given the lack of technique I see from most winter climbers either on ice or mixed, I don't think many routes can cope.

ALC

In reply to a lakeland climber:

I've done Botterils Slab so realise that, but it is a three star Summer VS, with turf on it, can form ice and the winter and summer lines are common for two / two and a bit of it's three pitches. I'm just trying to get a handle on what those who object to some of these winter ascents would propose in the Lakes and though it best to sight specific examples as specific routes / crags seem to have been discussed in Wales where some kind of concensus seems to have been reached.

In reply to Exile:

I think this whole issue is over-egged. There really aren't that many winter cliffers out there. It's not really a 'thin end of the wedge' scenario because the wedge is so thin, metaphorically. Even if the ethics police decided that it was ok for winter climbers to climb whatever they wanted in winter, the summer rock jocks would never have to worry about much more than a handful of scratches and broken holds, which in the vast majority of cases wouldn't alter the nature of the summer climb.

So basically it's just a storm in a teacup. Can people just drop it now that i've sorted it out? Thanks.

In reply to timjones:

You can't sensibly measure enviromental plant damage by volume. It all depends on the vegetation type and sometimes how it got there. Its not uncommon for a change in landuse to cause or encourage the growth (a simple example is someone dug a quarry!). A lot of vegetation removed in crag clearances are common varieties that quickly grow back given a chance and the clearances are usually organised with enviromental considerations clearly in mind. Hence I'm rarely worried about clean-ups in quarries and not always worried on on natural edges. I don't think plants that are rare in particular or in combination should be removed.

In the comparative case with winter climbing, slow to replace vegetation, some rare, is regulaly unethically removed by people climbing mixed routes due to the stripping-out of unfrozen turf.

As climbers we also hopefully value the aesthetic of the route and crag as part of our environment; plants can add to this or detract (esp overgrowth of common plants), rock damage always detracts. To have an appreciation of the beauty of an environment - neccesary to defend its special characteristics - there needs to be a human interaction.

To be clear about my position I'm not against winter climbing in any form (I do it myself) its just that looking at whats happened on popular winter routes vs popular summer routes I think the rate and consequence of damage is higher in winter climbing and the proportion of climbers operating with scant regard for ethics around damage, although a minority in both cases, is higher in winter. Maybe this is an education issue for the mass participants. I also regularly highlight and challenge unethical practice on rock routes (eg cam damage on Birchen)

In reply to Franco Cookson:


Yes, I do think it is 'just' a matter of numbers.

The number of ascents of something like Gimmer Crack or Asterix in an average winter can be counted on one hand, partly due to a lack of 'conditions' but mostly because only the elite are capable.

Conversely these routes will have hundreds of ascents in an average summer, even if only 20% of us punters are bothered by the scratches it still amounts to a lot of people.

One of Steve's quotes "What the argument actually is about is aesthetics, it is a selfish argument deployed by hypocritical rock climbers wishing to preserve what they think a rock climb should look like." actually smacks very much of elitism.

Climbing is a selfish pastime (as my wife constantly reminds me) but I actually think that the elite mixed climbers are being selfish here by choosing to ignore the critism.

I'm prepared to accept that Gable, having been damaged already, could continue to be a playground for this type of climbing, but I do think the fantastic rock routes on Gimmer, Dow, the east buttrss of Scafell, esk and other high south and east facing mountain crags in the lakes should be protected from further damage by a voluntary ban. I doubt it will happen of course, Steve's concluding paragraph makes it clear he's not prepared to modify his activities in any way.

In reply to Dave Ferguson:
Hi Dave, you out this we?

I disagree here (you knew I would). Take Gillercombe Buttress as an example. It is south facing and rarely in condition very similar to Gimmer in aspect altitude etc. The summer route is only moderately graded as a winter climb (the grading is way out but that is another topic for another day). There is very little in the way of scratching on the route. This is due to the crag so rarely being in condition not due to the difficulty of the climbing, also to the precise nature of the climbing; you have to place that crampon point there or you can't go anywhere etc. I mentioned style of climbing in an earlier post and this is the nub of the argument for me. If the route wholly consists of pedalling whilst pulling then it is not for me.

You mention no go zones, to really throw a cat amongst the pigeons; if winter climbers agree to leave certain areas alone, will summer climbers share some of their "finer" venues with drytoolers. I am thinking along the lines of Dalt Quarry, Bowderstone quarry and some of the poorer limey sport venues? This is a purely academic suggestion, I do not believe there will ever be consensus on these issues. You and I will continue to disagree on these things. I know that I am right and you know that you are.

In reply to Dave Ferguson:

I can't see how any sane climber could disagree with your arguments.


Of course. Modern ice gear, with very sharp, high-tensile points, is the very last thing we need in trying to preserve classic rock climbs. Fine, if the climb really is in full winter condition (i.e. all the climber's weight is being taken by the ice) but absolutely unacceptable if this amounts to little more than hooking ice picks on small rock holds and flakes in 'bare' conditions. I really don't see how anyone can argue otherwise.


This will be quite a lot more embarrassing (and inexplicable) in the future than the damage done in, say, Cwm Idwal by nailed boots (tricounis) in the 30s and 40s.

It's also wrong, because it's nothing whatever to do with aesthetics, and all to do with real damage that may be done to the rock. It's fantastic to me that this has to be explained to anyone who understands rock climbing. It's nothing to do with what a rock climb looks like (though once it is trashed by crampons it will indeed look very wrecked indeed), it's all to do with how the natural features - the smaller holds, particularly on a crux - may be wrecked by this blind stupidity.

As climbers we should be deeply aware of the innate selfishness of the sport, and make very sure that our selfish activities do the least possible damage to the environment, which is there for all to enjoy.

I've no idea why you find it acceptable to write off Gable in this way, simply because we have trashed it in the past. But agree with everything else you say.

In reply to Dave Ferguson:

Hear, Hear.

In reply to UKC Articles:

I find it remarkable that there is all this fuss about scratches on the rock ..... when the volume of path erosion by all users of the hills has changed the visual aesthetics of the uplands beyond repair.
How many people who moan about scuffs on the rock of some mountain crag are so concerned that they contribute to Fix the Fells or other organisations that endeavour to look after the landscape and manage its erosion.

In reply to 3leggeddog:


Is this a joke? Have you seen it this Summer?

It would seem to be the perfect example of how very few winter ascents can make a right mess of a classic rock climb.

In reply to whispering nic:
You seem to have missed the point of my argument. Damage to the rock e.g. through chipping is a problem and if all you care about is rock and climbing it is important. However my original argument was that in the grand scheme of things there are far more important things to worry about. This is also a reply to Toreador. We should not ignore someone punching someone else in the face, but if we focused entirely on the punching and ignored genocide are we not failing to try and prevent an even greater evil in the world

In reply to UKC Articles:

My only point to make in this issue is that those who wish to climb Summer classics in Winter should be competent at the equivalent Winter grade.
There's nothing elitist about this.
Pedalling scars are nasty. I've done Eagle Ridge in Summer and it is absolutely covered in crampon scratches, contrary to what an earlier poster said.
That said, I certainly don't believe good Summer routes should be cordoned off every time it hits November.

In reply to UKC Articles: i wonder how callum gate would have played out if he had been a bit older, ex - marine arctic cadre who listed "fighting" in other intrests and looked a bit less like mr. potatoe head ?.
despite the very calm reasoned objection offered by dave f and several others, and the idea of (heaven forbid) a compromise for what is and isnt fair game in the lakes, steve pretty much seems to say , albeit very calmly, i dont care what you lot think because you are wrong , i m going to do as i like. whats so different between that attitude and callums ?
i d hazard a guess that a only a limited number of people are mixed climbing at this level in the lakes at the moment. i m not sure wether this is correct but somebody, (possibly 3leg ?)said to me recently that anybody leading E1 ought to be cable of leading VI /VII mixed ? if so say 10,20,30% of people who climb and live within striking distance of the lakes take to climbing classic rock routes in winter, then they wont remain classic for very long.

When you start using phrases like "environmental terrorism" to describe a bit of flak for scratching classic routes you really are losing the plot.
An interesting article with some good talking points but a lot of dubious, repetitive waffle and a little risible hyperbole

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Not particularly. It's fungus plus, usually, algae.

In reply to UKC Articles:
I think it's in the SMC Winter Climbs guide that for an ascent of Agag's Groove, they respectfully ask to not attempt until in full winter conditions.
This is a route that would see many ascents, especially with the conditions that we have been experiencing but as far as I can see, none at all.
Does this 'warning' in the guide book then work as a reminder that super classic 'rock' routes that have seen a winter ascent, require full rock saving winter conditions....?

Snowed up rock routes are part of the British climbing scene and have their own ethic, that has not changed. What seems to have changed is that the last 2 winter seasons have brought that type of climbing into areas where in the past 10 years or so only a handful of days of proper conditions happened. Those areas being the Lakes and North Wales.

Go climb any of the classic routes on Ben Nevis which exist as a summer and winter line and you will see evidence of crampon/axe use. Regardless of rock type, hardness, vegetation... its there. But its part of the mountain's brilliance that that type of duality of routes exists. The question is, do we wish to see it happen on lower 'mountain' crags that are usually exempt from this due to poor winters?

As climbing has been pointed out at being a very selfish pastime, only the individual can make his/her decision on what they find acceptable and show tolerance to other who differ in what is acceptable.

In reply to mike123:

>i m not sure wether this is correct but somebody, (possibly 3leg ?)said to me recently that anybody leading E1 ought to be cable of leading VI /VII mixed ?

I don't agree with that. Probably because I can climb E1 but I can't climb VII (or VI for that matter).
The skill sets are different- it takes a good bit more time to get good at mixed climbing than to get to E1 IMO.
I'm sure the percentage of climbers operating above grade V is a good bit higher than it was 15 years ago, but I doubt it'll ever be anything like the 'all E1 leaders should be on VIIs'.

In reply to mike123:

Also, it's still going to be harder for climbers to get up the grades in the Lakes and Wales (despite 2 recent brilliant winters) because the overall conditions will still be less reliable than N of the Border.

In reply to Wiley Coyote: especially - as I said above - when you end that very long-winded sentence with "in fact winter is probably the best time to interact with these untouched ecosystems as a lot of the vegetation is dormant."

In reply to UKC Articles: Im not sure if this article is really that effective in countering criticism as so much time is spent knocking down a poor straw man as others have pointed out. The level of discussion on this thread seems better than most but many people still seem to be striving for some absolute definition of what constitutes being in condition. Only in this internet age where issues which concern a few are debated by many would people conceive it possible to come up with ethics from a priori reasoning. Ethics must be governed by practice and will not just vary from area to area but from route to route and depend on who the first ascentionist is. The whole process is hopelessly subjective and depends on many factors outwith the actual conditions on the route. This whole debate only seems to seriously exist in cyberspace from my perspective. As has been pointed out there are no sound case studies of routes damaged by winter climbing, and whenever i've gone winter climbing most people seem more than capable of deciding what's in and what's not. Obviously a few people will always do silly things but this applies across the board, placing cams in dodgy flakes, or poorly thought out bolt placing, but rethinking the prevailing ethics just because a few newbies don't get them is an over reaction. Finally debates like these really are the concern of those operating in the higher echelons on mixed climbing and may do well to stay there as no sense can be made of this debate with so many who lack experience piling in on internet debates. I think a very workable consensus currently exists.

In reply to Chateauneuf du Boeuf:
Head of nail squarely hit there. Well said Mr Beef.

In reply to Chateauneuf du Boeuf:

I don't think people are. Almost everyone realises that conditions are very subjective. My point is that even in the best conditions (see the pictures in Steve's article) rock routes are still going to get scratched up. Modern mixed climbing does that, however carefull or skilled the practitioners.


That depends on your definition of damage, I would say that Gable crag as Steve has mentioned makes a rather good case study. I was up there in the summer and Engineers Slabs, Jabberwock and Snickersnack were pretty well scratched. The blocks on the top of Jabberwock always did feel a bit hollow, I thought they were a little worse this year (perhaps from torquing) although that could be my imagination. You may not define this as damage, I do, and therein lies the problem.

As I mentioned before this isn't a rock climbers versus winter climbers debate, it centres squarely on whether or not you think that scratching up popular summer rock climbs is acceptable or not, people have tried to put shades of grey in, like conditions, but actually its pretty black and white, certainly here in the Lakes anyway.


I'm afraid it doesn't or we wouldn't be debating it.

In reply to 3leggeddog:
I'll give you Dalt Quarry, but you can keep your dirty paws off the mighty Gig South!

In reply to UKC Articles: I thought this was a brilliant article and kudos to you steve for saying it like it is and not being afraid to go against the grain of pathetic self righteous rants which dominate UKC (such as most of the replies to this thread). Fair play mate and keep up the good work!

In reply to Henry Iddon:

In my experience the 'damage moaners' here are often the same people who will donate, help with path construction, clean-ups etc. Rock scratches may not be top of the list of world ills but that doesn't mean its not a real issue thats worthy of discussion.

In reply to Dave Ferguson: I wasn't arguing winter conditions were subjective, though i agree they are, i was arguing that ethical consensus or opinions on how 'ethical' an ascent is vary from case to case, and the influences on this go beyond the conditions found on the route. The only time i've climbed at gable was summer 09 and i didn't notice damage on snickersnack or engineers, though we've had a couple of good winters since so i don't doubt the situation could well be different now. Coming to your main point that debates on mixed climbing can be reduced to two view points at either end of a spectrum; i believe the debate on this forum and practice shows this not to be true. The lakes case is obviously different to scotland as their is less rock and your lucky most winters to be able to climb on the very highest of crags let alone those at lower altitudes. I guess the sporadic conditions lead to infrequent intense debates in the lakes as the ethical changes forged elsewhere over time suddenly strike. Considering this, coming to ethical consensus may be harder in the lakes, but by putting the debate into mutually exclusive camps your line of thinking will not help as from your reasoning, anything or nothing is fair game in winter (at least in terms of snowed up routes on rock. If you look beyond the cosy lakeland confines, practical solutions are less absolute and satisfy both user groups with a little give on either side. Leave behind the absolutist view point as it inevitably even though you deny it creates and us and them scenario which is not good for the crags. Dont think of how 'winter' climbers or 'rock climbers' damage the rock but how climbers damage it for this will be in the best interest of the crags, and should limit the intra-climbing community conflict. Finally i think if you sit people in an office all day bored out of their mind they will argue anything, arguments in cyberspace seldom reflect the situation on the ground, and i think the point is proved yet again in this case.

In reply to Chateauneuf du Boeuf:

I agree with what you say but I think the debate has another more important angle which is the link to those people who just dont seem to care about ethics at all. The likes of Steve I'm sure won't be making too much of a mess when hard mixed climbing on summer rock routes but others on easier classic mountain rock dragging up less competant seconds routes often will. I get depressed by people damaging any climb but flailing on a top rope on delicate slabs, as bad as this is, is far less of a problem than those climbing soggy turf. Bad behaviour seems more common to me in winter than in summer and with crampons, axes and delicate ecologies the results of this behaviour are almost always much worse. Maybe its partly down to the variability (and often rarity) of good conditions, combined with larger efforts to get to the routes and inflexible wish lists when people arrive.

In reply to UKC Articles:

Steve's article is well written but to me does nothing to justify dry tooling summer rock climbs. I have been a non anonymous critic of Snicker Snack's winter ascent before.

Steve plays the usual trick on ascribing spurious arguments to his critics that we don't actaully use, ie the "environmental" critisism

I've not so much against winter ascents of Gimmer Crack, particularly as the summer and winter lines diverge to find the most suitable route, also I don't expect that ice tool damage would detract so much from the summer climbing experience.

However there is no escaping that Snicker Snack is nothing but dry tooling up an E3 finger crack and no amount of hoar frost will change that. It won't take many ascents or even worse ham fisted attempts by the growing mass of les experienced new tool owners to damage the edge of the crack and permanently change the summer climbing experience, hammering nuts in etc.

Anyone who thinks soil and turf won't reappear after summer cleaning should join me on the next BMC sponserede Wilton clean up

In reply to kevin stephens:

should join me on the next BMC sponserede Wilton clean up

If turf removsl is an issue in the first place then the fact that it re-appears is no excuse for removing it in the first place.

In reply to timjones:

What first place? Wilton was a quarry?? Heather, bracken and grass in relatively low lying grit quarries seem very efficient at generating new turf to me (I've seen rarely climbed routes get covered again in a few years following a full clean). In contrast turf on high north facing mountain cliffs (and some rare plants that live in it) take a very long time to reform.

In reply to Offwidth:

Does the fact that it was a quarry give us the right to wilfully remove any natural regeneration that takes place?

In reply to timjones:

Yes with certain provisos: if it is common vegetation, the owners or other user group's don't object and it allows people to better enjoy the place. Gritstone Quarry clean-ups are common, typically involve tidying more than total denuding and usually carefully organised and well supported. I don't know anyone who thinks winter climbing mountain routes on unfrozen turf is a good idea.