UKC

Dear all,

I've had my current bike for 17 years now and it is getting to the time when I really do need a new one. So which bike should I get? My specifications are:

Up to £500
For cycling to and from work, on road, 4 miles each way every day.
I will not be riding off road on it.
I will not be racing on it.
I want a leisurely, relaxed cycle, sitting up and surveying the countryside, so no drop handlebars and prefereably able to set the handlebars quite high.
Space for a pannier rack.
Hardwearing and unlikely to get punctures
full mudguards.
Some gears - I have hills on my ride.
Not that beautiful, so that it doesn't get stolen.

My suggestion from the guys in the office is a Giant seek one 2010

In reply to tlm: Ok slightly above your budget but I got a Trek Soho through our cycle scheme. It'll cost ~£600 when I've finished paying. It has an 8-speed hub gear with a belt drive, full mudgaurds and fittings for a rear pannier. Here's a link to Evans cycles: http://bit.ly/ch4d5e. Also not massively attractive either!

In reply to Robert Dickson:

Thanks, Rob.

At the moment, I have 18 speed deralier gears - what is the advantage of dropping to 8 gears and having hub gears? Don't you need to stop cycling when changing gears with these?

In reply to tlm:

Go classic

http://www.pashley.co.uk/products/roadster-classic.html

In reply to tlm:

You haven't really got 18 at the moment, there will be repeats and combinations that shouldn't be used so you won't be losing that many.

I borrowed a bike with a similar set up when in Australia for a bit of touring around for a couple of weekends. I was quite surprised how good it was once I realised it had more than the traditional 3 gears of a hub system. You can change when pedaling.

This might be of interest:

http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/components/hubs/product/nexus-inter-...

In reply to Bob Hughes:

THREE SPEED hub gears????

Come on, UKC - be serious! I have HILLS to go up here!!!!

In reply to tlm: Hubgears have certain advantages. No chain deflection so wheels can be nice and symmetrical so stronger. You can change gear when stationary which I like. The bottom gear on my Trek is pretty low (about 33" I think) for comparision that's not much higher than the lowest gear on my road triple.

One downside with hubgears is, I believe, lower efficiency than a well maintained derailleur. How important that is for a commuting bike I'm not sure. I just think they make good sense for year round commuting.

Of course, this being UKC someone will be around shortly to explain exactly why I'm talking shite!

In reply to Horse:

The reviews say:
clunky, sensitive to chain stretch, unserviceable (they just have to be replaced) and wear out after 2 years of 2 mile commuting!!! In addition, you have to stop pedalling while you change gear, which is not great in hilly country.

OK - You lot have convinced me to change my original specification to say:

* Must have derailer gears.

In reply to Robert Dickson:

I've never had any problems with my wheels not being strong enough? Why do I want/need this?


I don't stop! I can understand some people liking this, but I want to change gears without losing momentum while going up hill. (You can change gears while stationary with a derailliar as long as you pick the back wheel up before pedalling! heh !)


Bad news for weak and feeble cyclists like myself...

but thanks very much for the information - most useful in helping me rule out hub gears!

In reply to Robert Dickson:
Hubgears are heavier, which might deter the hard core roadie type, but they require less maintenance, which again might deter the hardcore roadie type...

In reply to tlm:

Worth looking at the Specialized Sirrus/Vita (Mens/Womens)

In reply to tlm: any number of good road bikes for the money you have to spend .get all the gears you can and a modern bike is easy to change up and down whilst riding.the brake handle moving to one side ,and a small lever next to it..I use a Trek...

In reply to tlm:

I think bearing in mind you want to sit more upright then a roadbike isn't for you, much better looking at hybrids imo.


e.g. http://www.evanscycles.com/products/trek/t30-2010-hybrid-bike-ec001494

In reply to ebygomm:

Anther vote for the Sirrus. I do 9 miles each way on a Sport. High comfy ride.

In reply to tlm:

COnsider the Scott Sub 20/30. I have one as a commuter/touring bike and i think it's ace. All-day comfy, excellent week long touring bike as well as being solid enough to take on the odd canal path. It's all i use over the winter months.

I struggled with punctures so swapped the original tyres with Schwalbe Marathon's - and then nothing for a few thousand miles.

In reply to tlm: Probably won't change your mind but I got a Charghe Mixer just before Xmas which also has hub gears and I'm absolutely loving them. You can change while pedalling or when stationary and the range is fine for hills. They are a bit heavier but require no maintenance. The question remains as to how well they will last but as I've only had mine for about three months I'll have to get back to you on that.

Personal choice I guess and if you're good at cleaning and servicing normal gears then that's fine - I just like the fact that the hub gears are completely enclosed and keep out all the crap from the road.

In reply to tlm:

I love UKC - you are such great advisors for anything in life!

In reply to tlm:
You don't, you're completely brilliant.

See above.

In reply to alanw:


Which hub gear? I went through two nexus 8 ones in the space of two years. it most definitely let crap in and twice was more than just a coincidence.

In reply to tlm:

Might be worth looking into Edinburgh Bicycle Co-op's own brand 'Revolution' branded hybrids. I very nearly bought one before eventually going for more of a road bike but when I was looking into them earlier this year they seemed to be very highly regarded as a good-value option.

In reply to Luke90:
Though they seem to have a very limited range available on their website at the moment, maybe because they've sold out of some of the 2010 models and haven't yet brought out the 2011 models.

In reply to Luke90:

Please, please look at ribble cycles. I commute using their winter/audax road bike. It's perfect and beautiful (and British). I commute 15 miles a day on it, very comfy and fast.

mine was 600, but you choose your own spec and can get one for 500. really good value.

al

In reply to tlm:

The main advantage of hub gears is no maintenance and sealed from the elements.

The Giant Seek 1 has hydraulic disc brakes which I think is overkill for road use and they're more expensive to replace and harder to maintain. (I'm sure others will disagree.)

You could have a look at this one:
http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/gear/category/bikes/urban/product/arriba-09-33...

In reply to Mike_Watson_99: Shimano Alfine. I think they're the next step up from the nexus so hopefully a bit better quality. The problem with the hub gears is that they're very much a black box which either works or there's little you can do in the way of fixing them.

However, I was having loads of problems with the normal ones between lack of proper care and half assed attempts at fixing them that I'm keen to give the hub gears a try. They might not last the way I hope but so far so good.

In reply to tlm:

Kona Ute; you can even do your weekly shop on the way home as well then!

http://www.konaworld.com/bike.cfm?content=ute

Col

In reply to tlm:

You really should consider modern hub gears...

They are now better than derailleurs for general riding because they *are* reliable, you can fit and forget, give an acceptable range (really I expect they have at least the same as your 18 gear range) and the efficiency difference is absolutely negligible. If I could afford a commuter with hub gears I'd get one now.

Derailleurs are for sporty bikes you are prepared to mollycoddle or don't ride in winter.

In reply to Wrongfoot:

How about the 'changing gear while peddling uphill and loss of momentum' issue?

Is that solved with modern hub gears?

In reply to tlm: Given what you say in your OP I really don't think it would be an issue - I certainly haven't found it to be a problem once I got used to them. Whatever bike you chose to get you should definitely try a few out beforehand so why not give one with hub geras a test ride if you're not convinced. I had great fun trying out a load of bikes before I bought mine and the one I ended up with wasn't the one I expected to.

In reply to tlm:

To be honest I was conpletely flabbergasted at that quote/criticism - Hub gears change better under load at slow speed (such as when wrong geared on a hill) than derailleurs which lock up so you have to stop and lift the rear wheel and they shift just fine at normal speeds. You can change down all 8-9 gears when stationary and just set off. Within 1/4 of a pedal your engaged and riding off. I've tried it with the shimano offerings on local hire mountain bikes it's amazing, you simply can't do that with derailleurs. Of course I've learnt not to do that on my own bikes so I don't often get into that situation but it's a hell of a test of the mechanism.

Basically you lose a little bit of efficiency and gain a little bit of weight that (all other things being equal) would cost you mere seconds in a 10k time trial. You gain a reliable forgettable low maintenance set of gears which are harder to service so you need to take them to a bike shop, but realistically they only need checking once a year (or two) like a car service.

I like tinkering so I might choose a derailleur so I can service myself, but a time and cost study would probably suggest that for a commuter/runabout I should get hub gears. Sadly I can't afford them and so make frankenbike winter hacks with old technology from the tip and spend ages keeping them running...

In reply to alanw:

What a sensible suggestion! I shall most definitely do that.

In reply to Wrongfoot:

I guess I've never really had much of a problem with derailleurs and I do have a very hilly ride - down one hill and up another1

In reply to Wrongfoot:

What a load of old toss !!

Hub gears are heavy, (no heavier than chainrings and deraillieurs but the weight distribution is different so feels heavy) unservicable, a nightmare to change when you puncture, need i go on ?

I bought one with Nexus 7 speed as a commuter, it lasted 12 months of 5 miles a day for a year before it packed in.

Ever heard the expression KISS ? Thats a derailleur that is !!

In reply to tlm: The bike I had before this new one I bought over a lunchtime in a hurry without testing it. Huge mistake as I never liked it for the two years I had it even though there was nothing in particular wrong with it. Bikes are very personal things and you only really know what suits you by riding them. I'd even say don't buy until you've riden the bike at least twice on different days. Basically, you should have become quite good friends with the shop assistant before you make the final purchase.

In reply to alanw:

Hah hah!!! I did the very same thing with the bike that I currently have and have not really liked it for the last 17 years! It is too heavy and has too many fancy additional features which are useless and pointless. I've been gradually removing them as parts wear out!

If you need to remove the back wheel, for example, to mend a puncture, do the hub gears create problems then?

I forgot to add quick release wheels to my list in the first post....

In reply to tlm:

From your specifications you've just described a touring bike. It's as simple as that.

1) They are lighter and faster than mountain bikes.
2) They are more comfortable than racers.
3) Tourers are designed to take panniers, full mudgards.
4) Tourers have plenty of gears for hills (and low enough so you can carry load up hills aswell)
5) Hard wearing as they're designed to do tens of thousands of miles.
6) Come with straight bars
7) Isn't as expensive looking as a racer and I'm sure you can get uglier/prettier ones depending on your taste.
8) Edit: Most should be quick release too.

I have no idea why people are recommending this hub things. The ability to change gear stopped is useless. I have no idea why someone mentioned this sort of bike and time trial in the same sentence. It's just bizarre. A tourer isn't a time trial bike either, and neither really is a racer. A bike is simple to maintain and tlm never mentioned having any difficulty with that.

The one bit of advice I gleamed whilst skimming this thread that could be useful is to try a few bikes out before you buy. Now this isn't always possible but you can sit on the one you're looking at in a store if you can and get the size you want.

In reply to tlm:


In general, yes, but it depends on the make and model, some have quick release cables (the gear cable moves an actuator on the hub body)

In reply to tlm:

Your perseverance is admirable!
I'm currently living in denial that I will ever get a puncture in the rear tyre.

In reply to tragically1969:
I've never noticed when mountain biking, I might on a sportive. Depends on TLM's intended use.

Er. I said that didn't I? But not everyone wants to service their bike to that degree...

Depends on the chain tension method - latest hubs use a sprung arm rather than a chain tug so it's easy to remove the wheel, the little design problems are being ironed out...

I think you'd have to since I don't find those points persuasive.

I'm sorry to hear that, however there are other reviewers reporting better performance. Your sample set of one isn't persuasive (but it's evidence for TLM to consider).

It's also messy and labour intensive for home maintenance. But I only think TLM should consider a hub system, I don't think a derailleur will be a disaster or owt. Which put's your "load of old toss" comment into perspective as completely unneccessary. Did no one ever teach you how to disagree politely?

In reply to FreshSlate:

That was kind of the point...

Each of the 4 cycle shops up here has one mechanic who uses the hub system on a commuter/general hack so they don't have to mess with their own bikes having spent a day working on others. Make of that what you will - I'm at least persuaded not to dismiss the system.

In reply to Wrongfoot:

I do wonder what some people do to their bikes. I think some people mess about with their gears because they like fettling, but it's not something you should need to do on a regular basis if it's all set up correctly is it?

In reply to :

http://www.evanscycles.com/products/charge/tap-bike-2010-road-bike-ec020537...

J

In reply to Wrongfoot: Please tell me how a rear mech and a chain is labour intensive and messy ?

I am going to Ignorie all your other comments as I can't be bothered to argue with somebody who try's to rubbish years of bike development, I still find this comment bewildering and ill informed, have you actually got a bike, you mention time trials, sportives, mountain biking etc but do you actually ride more than once a week ?

In reply to tragically1969: Oh and OP, the Giant Seek would be perfect.

In reply to Colin Wells:

Haha! That looks like a tandem where someone forgot to add the rear saddle

Tim

In reply to Wrongfoot:

Can you please explain. I'm not sure about what was kind of the point? Did you quote the wrong part?

tlm is free to try any bike he wishes but afterall he's asking for a recomendation. He has stated that he has no problems with derailers, therefore it doesn't make any sense to recommend a hub bike to him.

In reply to FreshSlate:

The point being that - despite the much vaunted "inefficiency" and weight of hub gears a hub gear system even mis-fitted onto a time-trial bike would only cost the rider mere seconds. Therefore in normal use on a commuter these criticisms are completely moot.


TLM is the lovely <girls name> so he's a she.
People who are comfortable with gear changing in cars still buy automatics for perfectly sound reasons. I suspect people said the same about the change from penny farthings.

It interesting that I'm only suggesting to consider a hub geared bike an open opinion based upon reading and riding (Thorn hubs have been good for round the world cyclists, hire bikes are commonly being fitted with hub gears because of relibility, and the huge service interval).

It is others who react agressively to this suggestion. I'm perceiving a blind dogma from many that the "old system is best simply because it's familiar".

In reply to tragically1969:

Only the last 20yrs of development have suggested the 700C wheel. Should I have advised to stick with the old 27 and 28" wheels in the late 80's rather than rubbishing what had gone before? Leave those newfangled wheels alone.

Actually a better analogy would be the change to indexed shifters, since it relates to gears and ease of use, first efforts weren't brilliant and were pricey but now they are pretty much standard and cheap(er). I think hub gears have been going through this process and newer designs are going to be more and more valid and affordable for a lot of cycling uses.

Development isn't an unchallengeable historical edifice, it's a developing changing thing. The clues in the word you grumpy old stick-in-the-mud!

In reply to tlm:if it's of any interest I have a Scott Sub 20, (not with the disc brakes, mint condition which I may be selling if it's of any interest, cheers,
Gary

In reply to Wrongfoot:
>

That really didn't follow but I'm glad you've cleared that up. The inefficiency is about 8% I believe. I don't know of any A/B time trialling with both hub and derailleur so I don't really know about this point? Is there any information on this? I would be interested to read it. Efficiency isn't mute, I'm sure we all wish our bikes were more efficient when climbing that one in three hill.


Well I apologise for not knowing. Are you recommending hubs because girls can't use tools?


The manual car to automatic is a perfectly valid analogy, and completely fits with your philosophy. The penny farthing analogy is pretty terrible and is a attempt to try show derailleurs as old fashioned.

Penny fathings were succeeded by faster, more efficient bikes with a lower center of gravity and bikes that had gears to get up hills. None of these apply to hubs vs derailleurs. Also the move from penny farthings was TO gears, more complexity(for the user), which is the opposite of what you're saying. Until people start racing with hubs (racing is usually where the cutting edge technology lies) then hubs won't be seen as some sort of natural progression to something better, while this remains the case and derailleurs still progress as they do then any attempt to imply that derailleurs are oldhat and obsolete is in vain.


Perfectly good argument. I would generally counter this to say the value more efficiency, reduced weight and cost and the capacity for maintenence without paying a mechanic outweighs this.


I hope im not reacting agressively. I think the 'old system' comment is countered above.

Now, if in future we take the derailleur technology as far as it can go and then another technology obsoletes it and is measurably better for the concerns of the person who wants to buy a new bike then I would recommend a bike with that technology. This here is not the case.

If tlm mentioned something above like:
1) "I don't have time for maintence and do not know much about bikes so I would prefer something that I can just take to a bike shop every couple of years and have it done."
2) "I often forget to change gear at lights and find
the wrong gear too often so I would like something simplier."

I would agree with you.

I'm not mocking these views and I believe the hub has a niche similar to the automatic car (really good example). But I can't recommend one to a experienced rider of at least 17 years who have neither mentioned 1) or 2). This is not to say don't try one. Do try one *if you want*.

In reply to FreshSlate:

To TLM!?!?!

Crikey. I wouldn't dare.

In reply to tlm: forget all the advice above - you really really NEED this :

http://bikereviews.com/2009/12/niner-air-9-carbon-2010-hardtail-mountain-bi...

In reply to tlm:

If it's only 4 miles then what about a folding bike, with BMX rims and Swalbe Marathon tyres to prevent punctures. Then you can also put it in cars, on trains, or bus etc if you wish to extend or go on longer journey's. I even have an 8 speed Dahon I intend sell sometime this year, as my commute no longer requires a train in the middle of it.

In reply to tlm: I've not read the entire thread...but I'd recommend the specialised sirrus. It's an amazing bike!!! I've had mine for 6 months, I do around 6 miles to/from work.
I cannot fault it

In reply to tlm:

In the end, I bought this:

http://www.jejamescycles.co.uk/claud-butler-explorer-item157293.html

I'm actually picking it up next Saturday!

In reply to tlm: I have a Specialized Hybrid that would certainly fit your requirements. My only advice would be to forget front suspension and buy one of those high pressure pumps so you can get good pressure.