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North Wales Winter Climbing sample pages

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Simon Panton 11 Jan 2011
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The much anticipated Ground Up North Wales Winter Climbing guide is here at last.

An epic journey by guide editor Si Panton saw it delivered to Llanberis late on Friday night. You can read about Si’s mercy dash across the snow bound Pennines here:
http://www.groundupclimbing.com/newsitem.asp?nsid=252

If you're wondering what the fuss with all about, check out the downloads section on the Ground Up site where we've loaded a few sample pages to whet your appetite for the real thing.

There’s a page spread (http://www.groundupclimbing.com/upload/members/northwaleswinter26-27.pdf ) from the Black Ladders chapter which includes details of The Gerlan Heights, a route only climbed just over a month ago. This section of the guide had to be completely revamped at the final stage of production because there were so many new routes. The 1988 guide included only just over 20 routes for the Ladders; there are now over 60 and the signs are that there are lots more to come!

The second page spread (http://www.groundupclimbing.com/upload/members/northwaleswinter114-115.pdf ) shows guidebook co-author Baggy on the uber classic Devil’s Appendix – a brilliant photograph from Mike Raine that really captures the moment of commitment on the first pitch.

The third spread (http://www.groundupclimbing.com/upload/members/northwaleswinter168-169.pdf ) shows the right side of Clogwyn y Garnedd beneath the Snowdon Summit in full winter garb. This section of the cliff was intensely researched by Ground Up director, Streaky Desroy who managed to pick off a very bold first ascent in the process. Streaky also unearthed Gentleman’s Groove, a quality grade IV line that was previously undocumented, but no doubt climbed by many in mistake for Couloir.

Nationwide distribution is being handled by Cordee and the books will be available at all good climbing shops over the next week. But if you want one quickly then just mail order it from V12 (http://www.v12outdoor.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=4629&osc... ).

There are a number of websites which focus upon the North Wales winter climbing scene. Check out the following to keep up to date with conditions reports and first ascent news:

http://wwwbaggy.blogspot.com/

http://andymountains.blogspot.com/

http://news.v12outdoor.com/climbing-news/

http://news.v12outdoor.com/2010/02/19/south-gully-iv-4-cwm-idwal/

http://dmmclimbing.com/newsArchive.asp?id=6&ngroup=2

http://greg-cain.blogspot.com/

http://huwgilbert.blogspot.com/

http://welshwinterclimbs.wetpaint.com/
 Neil Anderson 12 Jan 2011
In reply to Simon Panton: Copy arrived today - excellent book; still a number of gaps for routes too!
Simon Panton 12 Jan 2011
In reply to Neil Anderson: Thanks for the praise, glad you like it.

We are in the middle of a new routing bonanza for sure. And those colour topos make the unclimbed lines all the more obvious.

A few of things I had my eye on have already gone, but there is still so much left to do. The route count on the Black Ladders has gone from around 20 in the 1988 guide to over 60; I can see that number running to 80+ before the current gold rush slows down!
Dr.Strangeglove 12 Jan 2011
In reply to Simon Panton:
Got mine today and its a very nice book, brimming over with enthusiasm for the winter game in wales and a few good strong ethical points in the front.

I'm interested by the concept of it as an 'interim' guide - what come next, and when?

Also why no mention of the routes left of Hidden Gully in Cwm Cnefion? seems a pretty important area - especially for beginners.
Simon Panton 13 Jan 2011
In reply to Dr.Strangeglove: This book project started out as a new route supplement, then over the last year as we worked on it it mutated into an almost fully definitive guide.

The reasons for this are, in retrospect, obvious: just to give context to the mass of new routes, especially on cliffs such as the Black Ladders (where the number of routes increased from around 20 to over 60!) and Clogwyn Du (which is almost unrecognisable from the way it was presented in the 1980s guide), there was no choice but to make it fully definitive. So, what we ended up with was something way beyond the cherry picking of a selected guide, but not quite the full nine yards of a complete definitive guide (with full coverage of every single winter crag in Snowdonia).

What do you call such a thing? Interim seemed like a good a moniker as any. It suggests an attempt to capture a transitional phase and that seems apt right now.

The North Wales winter scene is going through a revolution at the moment. The crags are as busy as they were in the 1980s, if not busier and the surge of new routes is unprecedented (around 50 since late November - most of which I managed to get into the guide at the last minute.).

This book could be a stepping stone to something even more comprehensive. It's too early for me to say what our next step will be, but if the cycle of strong winters continues I can imagine Ground Up producing at least one more winter book in the next few years.

If I'd had more time and a better topo pic I would have included the Cwm Cneifion routes. The quality of the routes is questionable (there are certainly far better low grade routes to do in the area - Hidden Gully for example), but I accept that they do come into condition regularly, even if there is only a few worthwhile lines to go at. There is a picture of and reference to the main line here, Tower Gully, but only to explain the position of a new grade IV route on the tower itself.
Dr.Strangeglove 13 Jan 2011
In reply to Simon Panton:
fair do's, I think its a really excellent book - especially great crag pic's
and as you say the developments since the last guide have been dramatic.
hope we get good conditions back soon!
In reply to Simon Panton:

Congratulations on an excellent and thoroughly inspiring guide. Obtaining all the crag photos in good winter conditions must have been a daunting task, never mind working out where all the lines go.

Well done too for tackling the thorny issue of climbing snowed up classic rock climbs. A very sensible approach - though I am still not entirely clear how the presence of hoar frost protects a rock climb from damage caused by axes and crampons. Deep snow or ice yes, but hoar frost?!
petejh 15 Jan 2011
In reply to Stephen Reid: It doesn't protect it, nobody who is serious about mixed climbing is trying to claim rime/hoar does protect the rock. (bangs head). Rime/hoar is used to provide the climber with a more challenging ascent of a rocky mixed route then if the rock was bare, that's all. Think of it as as self-imposed handicap, which is sometimes used and sometimes not, see numerous photos of harder rocky mixed routes for reference.
 earlsdonwhu 15 Jan 2011
In reply to Simon Panton: NB these views are from a complete winter bimbler! Obviously a labour of love has produced an attractive and very usable guide with loads of updates which show just how much has been done recently despite the relative fickleness of conditions in N Wales. However, I must confess I was expecting something more comprehensive so places like Cwm Tregalen and Foel Gron are lost. I think it goes from Idwal down to Foel Goch but misses Y Garn. Also there is less on the Arans, Cadair etc. The quality may be less in such areas but I was expecting reference / updates to them as well. Perhaps my expectations were just misguided in expecting a fully comprehensive guide to the whole area. As I said earlier the guide is really welcomed but I shan't be throwing out my previous editions.
In reply to petejh: Are you one of the authors? If so, thanks for answering. If not, I wasn't really asking you, but the point I am making is that on page 8 it states quite clearly that climbing classic unvegetated rock climbs with crampons and ice axes is really unacceptable. Then on page 83 it states that the classic rock climbs on the cliff described are neither turfy nor prone to hoaring up so making a winter ascent of them would be highly controversial, the implication being that if they did hoar up then it might be a different matter. Personally, I find it hard to see that it makes much difference - the rock is likely to be damage whether they are hoared up or not..
In reply to Stephen Reid:

Hi Stephen,

What do you think of the winter ascents of the likes of Gimmer Crack, D Route and Asterix?

Tom
petejh 15 Jan 2011
In reply to Stephen Reid: I was replying to the tendency of people to regurgitate, ad infinitum, the point that 'they find it hard to see that rime makes much difference - the rock is likely to be damaged whether it is hoared-up or not', as if the point were contentious; it's not contentious.

I'm not one of the authors no. And I agree that, from reading the page you mentioned, it could be implied that if the classic rock routes referred to were hoared-up it would be more acceptable to climb them with axes. I questioned the same paragraph with the author prior to publication because it gives the impression that absence of rime is the main reason to keep off. The biggest reason for leaving those routes alone is because they are classic rock routes which are relatively popular in summer, lacking much turf or drainage to freeze up. It's true they don't rime up readily but that in itself is a shaky base for saying a route shouldn't be climbed in winter (because they do rime up sometimes, so going off the current ethics they could be acceptable winter lines); also, see many of the hard new routes getting climbed in Scotland and elsewhere which aren't really rimed-up. A prominent winter climber has written up a concise set of guidelines (page 9 of Si's Welsh Winter book) which are mostly spot on, but the average climber with not much mixed-climbing experience might not be aware of them, or their significance. I thought that including the comment in the Glyder Fach intro about rime or no rime was an invitation for some people to point out the hypocrisy of the argument, as you are now doing.
There should, in my opinion, be a fourth (fifth?) criteria added to the mixed climbing guidelines - consider how important the route is to other climbers if it's a recognised summer route.
Simon Panton 17 Jan 2011
In reply to Stephen Reid: Maybe that paragraph is slightly misleading if taken in isolation, but on page 8 in bold there is the following statement:

The message is simple: if you are thinking of stepping out onto a classic rock route this winter, armed to the teeth with sharp ironmongery please think again.

Hardly ambiguous, eh?

The statement on page 83 was really an attempt to put people off. i.e obviously these are classic rock routes, so you shouldn't climb them with tools, but also, they are not as 'wintery' as the existing winter lines and therefore not as attractive a prospect for the winter climber.

As Pete says, hoar doesn't protect the rock, but it does mean that an ascent will have an authentic wintery feel (easier with tools than without for example) and it does limit the days upon which a route can be tried.

Even on really turfy routes I prefer it if the rock is hoared up.

Maybe things are different in the Lakes - I'm not sure how widespread the support for Steve Ashworth's views are - but here in Wales I'd say there is a general view that classic summer routes are out of bounds. This is not a black and white issue though and there have been controversial transgressions, such as Longland's Climb on Cloggy.
Simon Panton 17 Jan 2011
In reply to earlsdonhammer: As I explained to Dr Strangelove above, the guide mutated from a new routes supplement into an 'almost definitive' guide. Right from the start the book has been referred to as an 'interim' guide (see here for the initial announcement back in October: http://www.groundupclimbing.com/newsitem.asp?nsid=250 ); I've certainly never described it as a fully comprehensive/definitve guide, even though it is actually pretty close to being so.

As for the Cadair/outlying area information; we didn't reproduce the info from the 1988 guide, but there are details of some new routes.
In reply to Simon Panton:

Hi thanks for your reply. And thanks to the other climbers who responded.

Like most winter climbers who have been active on the scene for a reasonable length of time at a reasonable grade, I have done a fair number of winter ascents of classic summer lines, the likes of Bowfell Buttress and Central Buttress on Beinn Eighe come to mind, and there is also a photo of me in your new guide on the crux of Central Gully on Craig y Ysfa (a climb that I suspect see more summer than winter ascents), on a pitch that I doubt ever has much in the way of ice, or even snow, on it. I have also done my own share of new routes over the years.

So, whilst I feel rather uneasy about the development of routes like D Route, Asterisk and Gimmer Crack as winter routes, I can empathise with the climbers concerned in that I know both the excitement of finding new routes and of finding a long sought after winter line finally in nick on the day.

However, I also can see there is a problem of long term irrevocable damage being caused to classic rock routes by winter climbers, especially when those routes are just covered in snow or hoar frost which does little or nothing to prevent the damage.

It also seems to me that such routes which only a few years ago were the preserve of the elite (and thus saw very few ascents), are now likely to be the objective of any Tom, Dick or Harriett inspired by a few photos on UK Climbing and armed with a new set of monopoints and a pair of Nomics – which means the damage is likely to become greater quite rapidly. Moreover, as standards rise, the damage is likely to be more significant. A small flake of rock broken off off a VD like Bowfell Buttress is not likely to make much difference to the grade, but the same amount of damage to an E3 like Snicker Snack could be considerably more significant.

As editor of the FRCC Guidebooks I was interested to see a guidebook that addressed this issue and I suppose that I am trying to get more of a handle on just what is and isn’t acceptable among the rapidly expanding group of winter climbers operating at grade VI and above, though I appreciate that in a sport with no written rules and loads of rather fluid unwritten ones, precision in this matter is tricky. We are currently working on a new winter guide to the Lakes and I feel that we definitely need to take a stance on the issue, which I am trying to understand more fully.

As such, some of the points outlined in your new guide are a great help, as is the point made by petejh above.

I want to be sure as far as possible that, when the new guide appears, there is no ambiguity in our message – however, what that message is, is still open to debate.
Simon Panton 17 Jan 2011
In reply to Stephen Reid: At the end of last winter season myself and Baggy became concerned about the future direction of the North Wales scene.

There were lots of very psyched people who had ticked many of the established classics and were looking for new ground. The spread onto classic rock routes seemed an inevitable but undesirable outcome, particularly (as you mention) harder rock routes with crucial-yet-vulnerable-to-breaking-holds. There was also concern about ethical and environmental issues.

We called a meeting with all the key people who had been doing winter first ascents and let them all have their say. There was quite a mix of opinion, but I think it really helped to clear the air.

Obviously as guide writers we felt a burden of responsibility to set some guidelines; thus the strongly worded ethics section in the new guide.

The first part of this season has seen a huge number of new routes climbed (over 50) in North Wales, and I have to say that I have been pleasantly surprised by the nature of these routes. The vast majority were well within the confines of what most folk would consider fair game (i.e. very wintery in character and not going anywhere near classic rock routes).

Maybe that is because in North Wales we have so many turfy, winter venues that are not much cop for summer routes. The majority of the new routes done have been of a very high quality and it doesn't look like the pool of possible lines is anywhere near dried up. Maybe if there was less to go at then the radical opinions expressed by Steve Ashworth might have a warmer reception in North Wales?

On a personal level I find the 'is it better as a winter route than a summer route?' argument quite convincing (in favour of liberalising what we consider to be fair game), but I have friends who feel that even 1 star summer rock routes should be out of bounds, never mind how wintery they might be in character.

One thing that did come out of the meeting was, regardless of the general guidelines (don't touch classic rock routes), there was a general acceptance that we need to view each route on its own merits and that there would be exceptions to the rule, as there has been historically.

Anyway, good luck.
In reply to Simon Panton:

Hi Simon, Very interesting. It puts me in mind of a court ruling in a completely different context. A judge was summing up in a case where the Indland Revenue was claiming tax from a landowner on a house and land that he had inherited and the new owner was claiming the tax wasn't due as it was a farm. The judge in his summing up stated that "Most peple know a farm when they see one".

In climbing terms I think that most winter climbers know a winter route when they see one and the few routes that are causing controversy are the ones that aren't obviously winter routes, however snow covered they may be.

We have a couple of years to debate the issue and I suspect a local meeting may be a good way forward.

In much the same vein, I would be interested to know the general North Wales stance on other ethical issues such as:

Multiday ascents of a new route where the climbers ab off mid way and go to the pub etc, then return the next day, or even several days later, to finish the route.

Abseil prechecking the gear possibilities.

Abseil preparations of other sorts, eg cleaning turf out of thin cracks to make it easier to insert picks or inserting chockstones into cracks to give something extra to hook on.

Abseil preplacing of gear, including pegs.

I'm not sure whether this last has happened anywhere yet, but I'm pretty sure most of the others have, though not necessarily in the Lakes, or Wales.
Simon Panton 18 Jan 2011
In reply to Stephen Reid: In North Wales the winter ethic is for ground up ascents, no abseil inspection/ pre-placed gear and certainly no top roping.

This is an ideal though and occasionally there are transgressions.

There are of course lots of different ways that an ascent can slip into ethically dodgy ground, but this is rare I would say and is usually improved upon during subsequent ascents.

The first person up any new route has to face a lot of uncertainty and fear, so even when falls are taken or even the odd rest I think it is still impressive because they have broken through a psychological barrier.

Multi day ascents don't bother me too much, and are almost inevitable on certain routes (see Dai Lampard's Lliwedd girdle in the new guide for a good example) - I don't know many people who savour onsighting hard new ground once it's gone dark, even with a good headtorch! The second ascenscionist can aways push for a quicker ascent.
In reply to Simon Panton: Thanks Simon. All very interesting.

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