UKC

Hi all,

was wondering if anyone had any recommendations for some soft-touch grade IVs in the 'gorms and NW Highlands? Both mixed and snow/ice.

Cheers
Nick

In reply to fozzybear:

It does depend so much on conditions, especially ice routes. Pygmy Ridge if you go the right way at the start, is quite soft.

In reply to fozzybear: Finger's Ridge seems quite a low in the grade IV and is going to be my 1st IV lead. Folk go on about Pygmy Ridge too but I thought the crux to be harder than a lot of other IV's I've done (but that's only cos being 5 foot nothing I struggled to reach a crucial chockstone) The Opening Break looks do-able to me and is easy escapable if you're struggling (it's not soft though, just easy to escape)

In reply to fozzybear: Pygmy Ridge is ok for IV, must be if i led it! Invernookie isn't full IV but is excellent and does have good tech 4 bits on it.

In reply to Sonya Mc:

Opening Break is pretty soft, unless it's banked up at the start (like the old days and last year) - then it's Grade III.

In reply to Sonya Mc: fingers ridge is certainly not a soft touch early season, not any easy ground on it either. the last pitch after the saddle is also technically hard, definitely much harder outing than something like pygmy ridge or the seam

In reply to Sonya Mc: Though at the moment the first pitch is quite well built up and has some neve on it

In reply to fozzybear: green gully is soft for iv climbing wise, but maybe not for gear wise. all ice iv's are softer if you dont mind running it out and accept the consequenses of a fall.

In reply to Erik B: Looks fine to me. The first pitch looks easy (if not lean) Surely many routes will feel harder early season if there is no build up or helpful ice or neve? 2nd pitch looks tricky, Fingers look okay, just exposed. And you can go round that top steep wall at tech 4 so I believe. Um, I havn't done it of course :oD But it's supposed to have more gear than you can shake a stick at (bar the 1st pitch, but that's okay if there is build up) and it's easily escapable again if you feel it's too hard. I always think if things are easy to escape from then they feel easier (mentally at least)

I thought The Seam looked hard! Or really steep at least (though I'm led to believe it is helpful)

In reply to fozzybear:

Look through some old guide books, find the IV's that used to be III's. Things like comb, tower ridge,...

I realise these aren't cairngorm but you get the idea

In reply to fozzybear: Pateys Route (both mixed and ice) is pretty soft as long as it has a decent build up of ice in it (fairly obvious from below). Hidden Chimmney Direct might be a good shout for a first mixed IV, not desperately hard under most conditions and very well protected.

In reply to fozzybear:

Add Raeburn's Route in Stob Coire nan Lochain. I'd also suggest that East Buttress on Beinn Eighe and The Seam in Sneachda come into the "well protcted one-move wonder" bracket.

In reply to Sonya Mc:

Despite having climbed Fingers Ridge numerous times in summer and winter I often have difficulty finding the easiest line right at the start - so do lots of others! Also I think it's quite sustained and long for a first Grade IV unless it's been cleared and is well travelled...
With regard to Pygmy Ridge you may find the bolder slabby start to the left easier it's certainly less strenuous and thruxy as long as you spot the one hold, wire placement and mantleshelf!

In reply to Jamie Bankhead: Is East Buttress really a one move wonder? I'd love to do that route. It's a big day for a first IV though (for me, not the OP as they didn't specify if it was a first or not) Is it mostly easy ground then with just one hard pitch or something? I know someone who did it at the start of the season and was disappointed in it for sure (think they were expecting something harder

In reply to Sonya Mc:

We were really psyched for a big, tough day and were at the bottom for first light. We reached easy ground at the top in 3 long pitches (60m ropes) and it had just gone midday! There's plenty of climbing in it but never too hard, and I recall the wee corner near the top being udgy rather than technical. A very good route in an unbeatable position; get on it!

In reply to Ron Walker: When Andy did it, he started on the slab I think, then moved into the chimney bit. Can't remember mantelshelfing on it all, just remember it being balancy. It was the bit where you are wedged into the groove/chimney then have to hook over the chockstone. No matter how I udged up, I just couldn't reach it! Think I nearly fell off the damn thing. I've found loads of other IV easier, certainly more sustained, but that was pretty much a stopper move for me.

I thought the start of Fingers looked pretty obvious. Or it did when I saw it last Thursday, but I have heard of folk struggling with route finding on the 1st pitch. Maybe it's more obvious when banked out? It just looked like steep snowy ramp on Thurs.

Well, I'm determined I'm going to do Fingers soon as my parner has her heart set on it. Just waiting for her to lead a few more grade III's so I'm confident she can 2nd me fine. We might go for Opening Break though (incase I need to wimp out, lol)

In reply to Sonya Mc:

I used to find the very first move of Pygmy insecure, then I worke out you could balance up the slab to the left; much easier! Very non-serious route; even if you gave it tech 5 I'd argue III,5 overall. If not possibly II,4 (sure Erik would agree...)

In reply to Sonya Mc:

Surely your partner doesnt have to be leading III to follow you up Fingers? Just seconding that grade with ease would be enough..

In reply to Jamie Bankhead: No, but she's never ever seconded IV before and has only climbed one mixed III. I'm quite nervous when climbing so I'd like to know my 2nd isn't going to struggle, one less thing to worry about. I just figured if she'd done a few more III's then she'd be happy trying an IV. Yes, she doesn't necessarily have to have led them, but she'll want to lead.

As for Pygmy. I know everyone and his dog thinks it's soft. And the rest of the route is a doddle. And if you did fall off that hard move, I agree you wouldn't go anywhere as it's well protected. I still found that move hard though. III 5 I'd go with. II 5 is a ridiculous grade though :oD Although I spotted a III 6 in the Cairngorms guide the other day???

In reply to fozzybear: PS - sorry, I kind of hijacked your thread a bit Keen to lead an IV so watching this thread with interest.

In reply to Sonya Mc:

Silly grade. I've failed on it - at least 7 on the day, and not III,7!

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

Shush - not many folk know about that, although Sonya does. I wonder if Ron does?

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

That's why you found it easy (East Buttress), not because it is. Middle of the grade.

In reply to fozzybear:

The Haston Line in Coire an-t'Sneachda. It is IV,4 in the comprehensive guidebook and III,4 in the selective guidebook and UKC. I think the III,4 is more appropriate. There is just one move of grade IV, the rest is grade II.

In reply to Sonya Mc: no worries!
Yes this is for a first IV lead, so looking for something that could ease myself into the grade.

'One-move wonder' - lol, might adopt that as my new nom de plume...

Nick

In reply to fozzybear:
combe gully on the ben is soft for a IV (when in good nick).

In reply to fozzybear:

Green Gully is the ultimate soft-touch IV once it's built up. This would be annoying were it not such a brilliant route.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

Green Gully was my first IV lead. But had a couple of proper, steep ice pitches when I did it.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead: wish folk wouldnt keep saying green gully is an easy IV, if your starting grade IV it is a big undertaking, pyschologically and in terms of length and seriousness. I certainly remembering having an emotional time on it.

East Buttress is also a big undertaking, difficulty depends on route finding, dont go too far to the right! but in pure grade terms its the benchmark modern IV

Pygmy ridge should get III/IV as its not easy when blootered and verglassed but a romp othertimes

In reply to Erik B:

For what it's worth, I found Aladin's Mirror Direct significantly easier than Pygmy Ridge...

In reply to Sonya Mc: fingers ridge first pitch early season is necky, looks very easy though. banked up though this isnt an issue

In reply to Stuart S:
When did you do AMD? When I did it it was the hardest pitch of IV I've done! I know it varies a lot.

In reply to Erik B:
Yeah I can think of multiple cruxs of mid grade IV on fingers ridge when we did it. It was semi built up and semi consolidated on the day. Pitch 1 was a bit necky and cruxy.

In reply to Erik B:

Me too!

In reply to Erik B:
I've done fingers ridge in winter a couple of times. First time, we teetered across the slab on the first pitch in the powder snow, and it felt quite hard. Second time i did it, I walked to the first belay, apart from using an axe once for the little step. Conditions may be variable on the first pitch, but the short wall after the fingers will always be reasonably tricky, but is well protected, and definitely should not be missed.

In reply to fozzybear:

Nice thread, I'm also in the same boat. Just seconded Central gulley right hand on the Ben recently, short crux and great insitu bealys - felt I would have been happy enough on lead plus if you get there and dont fancy it you can always opt for the left hand at III.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

Was thinking about doing this, any major difficulties en route?

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

Easy= it goes pretty much straight up in line no major route finding problems,my tupence worth is its a good route for that grade.

In reply to baileyswalk:
I've been thinking about Raeburns Route as well, are Raeburns Route and Ordinary Route (Central Buttress) different names for the same climb? I note in my Glencoe guide Ordinary Route gets III/IV, 4 and in the later Winter Climbs guide Raeburns Route gets IV, 4.

In reply to drmarten:

Same route. There was another Ordinary Route in the corrie (ordinary for a different buttress) and it was confusing, so Central Buttress Ordinary was changed to Raeburn's Route

In reply to drmarten: Been looking at pics of this route too. It looks nice! And looks like it might be more suited to me than udgy/reachy Cairngorm Granite.

Erik, I'll take heed re Finger's Ridge, I'm only going by how it looks, and things can often look easier/harder than they are! Though that 1st pitch is so banked out at the moment that it looks like a steep walk. What was your 1st grade IV lead?

In reply to Andy Nisbet:
Thanks Andy, the other Ordinary Route did add to the confusion so it makes sense to give the first ascentionist a mention. Annoyingly I was up there on Sunday, no partner and decent conditions ...

In reply to Sonya Mc:

North Buttress on the Buachaille was my first IV and felt fine but with enough challenge. One tricky bit on the 3rd pitch but no shortage of gear to be had.

In reply to Sonya Mc:
Have you considered tower ridge? I would imagine you'd romp up that knowing you. Could follow by north east buttress which is technically harder but only for two short sections.

In reply to CurlyStevo: I'd love to do TR at some point. I'd have to do it midweek though, cos I hate the Ben at weekends, it's almost as bad as the Northern Corries :oD
But it's not really a IV in terms of technicality though is it.

Think I want something shorter than NE buttress anyway for a 1st IV. I'm so unfit and old feeling at the moment it's unbelievable

I do remember climbing the big tower (um, if that's the bit that is before the gap) in summer and thinking it would be tricky in winter, but maybe it's okay when snowed up etc.

In reply to Sonya Mc:

While I can't answer that from experience that is what I've been led to believe. While I've done Tower Ridge I think of it as a III. NE Buttress looks like it would be a fantastic route and is on my to-do list but I'd rather do a shorter IV first. It eases the day if all you have to be concerned with is a jump in grade rather than a jump in grade and the fact you're on a long day out as well.

In reply to drmarten: Yes I agree.

In reply to Sonya Mc:

Depends on conditions, but Tower Gap and the pitch before can easily be IV. And the Eastern Traverse is very exposed. Raeburn's Route, however, I did when it was graded III and though I found it tricky, didn't complain about the grade. Easier than Tower Ridge I'd say. But it may have lost turf and be harder now.

In reply to Sonya Mc:
There is a short section after the eastern traverse and the banked out chimney which is a bit hard but not nails for IV and like andy says the gap is no push over, my second fell off and he was leading grade V at the time.

I think overall the route is right for IV. If you are after technically harder routes have you done much III 4? stuff like twisting gully SCNL, glovers chimney, Haston Line, Left twin, Invernookie etc.

In reply to drmarten:
I was only suggesting these routes for sonya as I know her experience. NE butress is not hard for a IV most of it is a I or II, it took me the same amount of time as TR and overall didn't seem much harder as a whole route.

In reply to Sonya Mc:
When we did it last winter, Italian Climb Right Hand was easy for IV, probably conditions dependant of course.

In reply to fozzybear:
Great replies all - thanks!
Sounds like a few folks are interested in this topic, as far as I can see the III->IV boundary marks a bit of a paradigm shift to more technical climbing?
Nick

In reply to CurlyStevo: Yeah, north East Buttress has lots of easier climbing on it and only 2 bits of tech 4 on the mantrap and 40ft corner, but the mantrap can be frigged and the corner is easy with enough ice. I found it easier than Pygmy Ridge, but I did Pygmy when well covered and started up the groove, not the slab start

In reply to Sonya Mc:


I've failed on The Seam twice... Both in crap conditions.

In reply to MattG: yeah I'd argue the man trap is well hard for tech 4 but when I did it it was more like a well protected boulder problem and the pick placements are bomber.

In reply to fozzybear:

I've never found that much of a distinction between III and IV, remember with rock climbing there is a much more defined boundary between grades which is still very fuzzy, in winter the conditions vary so much and effect the difficulty of the climbs.

If you are willing to lead III in most conditions you will likely find IV in good conditions no harder on many routes (especially neve and ice lines)

In reply to fozzybear: thouroghly recommended as a brilliant route but i thought soft as clarts is deep cut chimney on hells lum. stunning outlook, not too serious,very well protected, eye catching feature all for the price of a wee walk out :O)

In reply to Euge: It's a damn shame I'm feeling so shit now!!! <just hacked up something highly unpleasant (um like you really wanted to know that, lol)> We could have done an IV this weekend (well, if the forecast had allowed it)

Did you fall off The Seam, or just bail?

In reply to CurlyStevo: Yup, I've done a few III 4's, all mixed though. I'm utterly shite on ice routes. Glover's Chimney doesn't appeal to me in the same way that Dorsal Arete doesn't appeal cos every man and his dog does it. Haston Line I'd do if I was in Sneachda again midweek. Invernookie doesn't appeal to me as a route, just don't like the look of it for some reason.

North Buttress on Buachaille is one I'd love to do, but again a long route for a first IV, though it only used to be III.

In reply to baileyswalk:

Hi Brendan!

Yes, Raeburns Route is quite easy for a mixed IV - the first pitch is the crux and it is well protected! North Buttress (my first IV - accidental as old guidebook said it was III) and Fingers Ridge are both distinctly harder.

I agree with what you say about Central Right Hand, but Comb and Green are definitely both easier!

I'll be in touch (especially if Thompson's comes into good nick!)

M

In reply to Toreador:

Quite! I did it in March 2008 and it was hard for IV!

M

In reply to Mark Bannan:

Hi Mark, cheers again for a top day out!

Right up for Thomsons just drop me a line. Won't be back on the Ben for a couple of weeks but hoping to nab Raeburns sometime in between.

In reply to fozzybear:
The best way to get a soft touch route at a grade is to pick the best route under the prevailing conditions. When there is good snow ice then do a gully or face route which climbs snow. If powdery then try a well protected buttress.Every route can be made easier by getting it in prime conditions. But will it still be a grade IV ?
'Fenian Gully' on Beinn Dearg is good and low in the grade, as are '1978 Face Route' on An Teallach and 'March Hare's Gully' on Beinn Bhan.
In the Gorms 'Kiwi Slab' on Hell's Lum is easy once built up, as are some of the routes already mentioned,like 'Opening Break' which was only grade II last winter and never really warrants grade IV.
I know you didn't ask about Ben Nevis, but there are lots of soft touches there, like every route!
Hope you have fun on some real fours.

In reply to Sonya Mc:
Hi Sonya, Inverookie is brilliant, while The Haston Line is a bag of ...

In reply to Sonya Mc:


The day I did Glover's the only people we saw until topping out were Simon Richardson soloing a new line to our right and two parties of two crossing the gap on Tower Ridge, honeypot routes aren't always swarming so don't completely write them off!

Rather than set your heart on a soft grade IV why not do something that inspires you? My first IV was Comb Gully, as it turned out it was probably quite soft IV on the day but the fact it had been at the back of my mind for years since reading through Cold Climbs as a kid made it all the more satisfying.

Iain

In reply to John Lyall: Haston Line does look a bit artificial. I know Invernookie gets loads of stars, I just didn't like the look of it, it didn't inspire me like other routes do. Andy will attest to the fact that I'm pretty fussy :oD

Grade IV routes that I'd love to do are,

North Buttress Buachaille
Patey's Route
Doctor's Choice (looks a really nice route)
Finger's Ridge
East Buttress, Beinn Eighe
Shadow Buttress A, Lochnagar (this is my biggie I'd love to do, would love to do this far, far more than NE Buttress on the Ben say) but it looks intimidating.

In reply to Sonya Mc: Shadow A used to be III, like some others that have been mentioned in this thread. Most of it is easy but the crux felt hard for III both times I did it and I recall reading that it's harder still now through loss of a hold or something.
Thinking Lochnagar, and for the o p too: has Tough-Brown Traverse also been upgraded to IV? (I don't have the guidebook handy) It's nice and long and goes through spectacular surroundings at a reasonable grade, so long as you always choose the easiest way forward.

In reply to Sonya Mc:
Doctors Choice is a nice line and ok if banked up to the cave, neve in the traverse and with ice in the upper corner. Otherwise it's hard for a grade 4 and certainly not a soft option!!

In reply to Ron Walker: Didn't think it looked soft, just that it looked nice

In reply to John Lyall:

Agreed, I've done them both and couldn't agree more.

In reply to fozzybear:
Pretty simple - get an old guidebook or a copy of Cold Climbs. Look at what routes were III, then see what is now IV in the new guides.
Eg Comb Gully, Glovers, N Buttress on the Buachille.

In reply to Ross McGibbon (In reply to fozzybear) > Pretty simple - Look at what routes were III, then see what is now IV in the new guides >
But I doubt many would recommend Observatory Ridge (originally III) as a soft IV?

In reply to fozzybear:
Have been looking into this, has anyone done Fluted Buttress Direct? as that is one route which really appeals to me.

In reply to fozzybear:

Tora Bora

In reply to JYates:


It's a nice line with interesting climbing. Did it early season under powder and found a few moves were a bit sketchy, apparently it doesn't take much ice to make it easier though. Good fun and a decent length as far as routes in the Northern Corries go.

Iain

In reply to JYates:

Yes - did it in lean conditions a few years ago. In such conditions, I found it absolutely trouser-filling! The current "Scottish Winter Climbs" gives it IV,4 when well iced and suggests a serious V,5 when lean. I totally agree with this latter grading. There were 3 hard pitches in a row, 2 of which were poorly protected.

Compared to this - I found other classic IVs in the corrie (The Seam, Hybrid, Fingers Ridge) to be significantly easier and much more enjoyable!

I would be curious myself to hear what Fluted Buttress Direct is like when fat!

M

In reply to rif:
Why not? - it is III ground until the Mantrap. You can bypass the Mantrap easily by traversing down onto the face on the right. 40ft corner can be be avoided too if you want. So a IV if you want it to be but can be easier if needed.
It worried me when I walked into it but was technically fine and gear is acceptable too.

In reply to JYates:

I did a video of Fluted Buttress Direct a few years ago along with most of the other popular climbs mentioned on this thread such as Fingers and Pygmy Ridge.

You can find them on my YouTube Channel at http://www.youtube.com/user/RonWalker1955

Fluted Buttress Direct is at youtube.com/watch?v=_-T-HqeKBgg&

In reply to Mark Bannan:

it used to be along with Finger Ridge and Doctors Choice graded as III/IV in the older guides. So prob grade III if fat with ice/neve though apart from last year it rarely has been III over the past decade. In soft snow it's usualy a bit sketchy at the start with poor hooks and gear until you enter the chimney though not sure about V,5!!!!

In reply to Ross McGibbon:

But rif's talking about Observatory Ridge!

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

Is that Pygmy Ridges left slabby start on this video?
See youtube.com/watch?v=TxRuM8hYakk& and this youtube.com/watch?v=HD8zM31HO4c&

Winter climbers on the right at youtube.com/watch?v=SyYHdRu3BRI&

In reply to rif:

It would probably be give V,6 if done as a new route now!

In reply to Robert Durran:

In a good banking of neve it might have been III but as the rock's slabby and all the holds point the wrong way it's a significantly harder than the other Ben ridges. I'm in agreement with John L on the other routes especially Combe Gully though!!!

In reply to Ron Walker:

Admittedly I have only done it under powder and crud.

In reply to MattG:
Actually the Haston line is quite a good route, get's IV 4 in the new guide, which seems about right to me. UKC votes give it 1-2 stars mostly. I'd agree invernookie is a better route, really enjoyed the top two pitches of that one.

In reply to petestack:

Apologies. My brain was tired.
I've not done Observatory Ridge but I quite fancy it, as it used to be a III!

In reply to Sonya Mc:
t)

Bailed both time.. the first time it was just out of my league (in the conditions) and the second time I couldn't get past the crux as the cracks were full of unconsolidated snow... I had a bomber runner so kept trying and falling until I had no strength left.

Although looking at pictures of it, I think there is an easier way then the way I was trying but that just could be from the photo lol...

Yes shame about this weekend... the weather doesn't look to good anyway huh! Hope you get better soon.

E

In reply to Sonya Mc:
... Invernookie doesn't appeal to me as a route, just don't like the look of it for some reason.

Invernookie is great.. I've done it 3 times (twice after bailing from The Seam)... NEB is a fantastic day out.

North Buttress in The Buachaille is pretty good too and seemed easy when I did it a few years ago...

In reply to Sonya Mc: first IV was crest route, rest of them where III/IVs

In reply to Ross McGibbon:


I've done both North-East Buttress and Observatory Ridge in what I'd say were average conditions, and I'd go with IV,5 and V,4 respectively. NEB has an enjoyable feel to it, whereas OR feels serious.

In reply to Ross McGibbon:


If you're going to bypass the cruxes of routes then you're essentially bypassing the route itself. Rather than seeking out soft touch IV's, it's probably better to spend your time gaining confidence on a wide range of III's.

In reply to Ross McGibbon: Observatory Ridge is definitely one to aspire to, but not a soft touch. I only did it once, but on the day (with thin ice/crusty snow on all the hard parts, and a single old-school axe) it was a great deal more technical than the top of NEB (avoiding Man Trap on R) was on any of several occasions. Looking at my old log book I see I actually did NEB the day after OR, taking 4 hrs compared to >8, which gives you an idea of how they compare. Incidentally at that time (40 years ago) OR had the same grade as Raeburn's Easy Route! I guess OR wouldn't be hard with modern tools and the route plastered in good neve, but I doubt that happens at all often.

In reply to Tom Knowles:

What I meant was that the zeriousness of NEB is reduced a bit by the knowledge that the sting in the tail can be avoided. That reduces the overall grade as far as I'm concerned.

However - I'd mention Tower Ridge and North East Ridge of Aonach Beag as examples of ridges where it is standard to avoid staying on the crest - giving a route more consistent in grade.
What is the Eastern Traverse, if not a flanking manoevre round a difficulty. Same goes for the rightwards traverse frequently done on NE of Aonach Beag.

In reply to Ross McGibbon:

The Eastern Traverse is not a feature a climber takes in order to avoid doing the classic route on Tower Ridge. The difficulty that the Eastern Traverse bypasses has nothing to do with the route. The same applies to the North-East Ridge of Aonach Beag - the Pinnacles are not a part of the route.

With NEB, the Mantrap and the 40ft Corner are, however, features of the route. That's why there's a difference in grades between NEB and Tower Ridge. Avoiding these features essentially means you've failed on the route, whereas avoiding the Eastern Traverse (or the rightwards traverse on AB) is only going to increase the difficulty.

Some features, however short-lived, are so intrinsic to a route that not to do them makes starting up the route in the first place virtually pointless. This is especially the case if a climber is setting out with the intention of avoiding them (to make the route "softer"), rather than avoiding them because they cannot surmount them, and where it's safer to "fail upwards" instead of making a long retreat.

In reply to Erik B:

That must've been a bag of laughs - first IV lead ? Remember looking across at it from something or other and thinking it looked desperate.

In reply to Tom Knowles:
I kindof agree, but why should people follow set guide book routes. Sure you can't claim the classic route but it's doesn't stop a good challenging day on the hill being had!

Many routes I've done I've gone off route for one reason or another and then carried on as I see fit, sometimes this is still challenging even on easier ground as you are being self reliant on ground that's not described.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

I totally agree with you and I was going to mention exactly what you've said. What I was talking about was purely in the context of the "guidebook route", but as you've pointed out, doing the "guidebook route" doesn't necessarily equate to a more exciting/adventurous/enjoyable day.

In reply to Tom Knowles:

But if a climber sets off intending to do the whole route but knows there is an escape, the difficulty remains the same but the seriousness and therefore grade are reduced.

It's a wee bit strange that the dodges on TR & Aonach Beag became the standard route but NEB kept in the avoidable difficulties. Puts the importance of "routes" into question on big features like this.

In reply to Ross McGibbon:
I thought the way around the man trap was still pretty tricky (not done it) in most conditions no?

In reply to CurlyStevo:
Airy, yes (suddenly out over the Orion Face) but easier than hauling over the Mantrap unless you are frigging it. We took the flanking manouevre and still consider we did the buttress proper. I wouldn't have missed 40 Ft corner for the world though (though it is possible) - it was an excellent finish to the difficulties.

In reply to Ross McGibbon:


I don't entirely agree with you there. The seriousness in the climber's mind is reduced, but the seriousness of the actual route doesn't alter. There are many routes that allow escapes onto easier ground but that doesn't alter the grade of the route itself.

If you look at the routes on the Orion Headwall for example, they're all VI's and VII's. The routes are generally difficult to assess from the bottom of the face, which means a team could reach the Basin and find that their chosen route isn't in condition (this happened time after time with Robin Clothier in his attempts to repeat Journey into Space). The team have possible escape options in the form of Epsilon Chimney (IV,4) or Orion Direct (V,5), both of which will be in condition otherwise they wouldn't even have considered a headwall route. I don't believe that this knowledge reduces the grade of the headwall routes, it simply gives a team easier alternatives.



I agree, but I think that NEB is all the better for it. Where you have a route like Observatory Ridge taking the line of least resistance, NEB takes the line of most resistance! However, the fact that the resistance on NEB can be avoided undoubtedly accounts for its popularity; Observatory Ridge requires more commitment but this "seriousness" is now reflected in it's V,4 grade.

In reply to Ross McGibbon: how's the gear on NEB on the crux sections? I really enjoyed TR but fancy a bit more of a challenge next time.

In reply to francois:
The Mantrap has a peg and is easily protectable.
Gear didn't seem ideal on 40 Ft Corner - I remmebr having to equalise the pull on a pair of nuts. Gear elsewhere seemed good.
NEB is a step up from Tower Ridge amd you are need to be moving at a fair pace, since it is a longer walk in and will be pitching more.

In reply to francois:
mantrap is easily protectable if the cracks aren't too iced, to climb it's maybe easier in winter than summer as there are plenty of good hooks in thin cracks. 40 ft corner is not easily protectable in easy conditions as you'll have rocks shethed in thickish ice/neve to climb. When I did it the ice was rotten and needed clearing, however not much gear was found and I ended up well run out on hardish moves for the grade.

Have done it in summer too, pretty sure there is gear on the 40ft corner but it was burried and hard to find in winter.

In reply to Ross McGibbon:
I don't think we pitched any more on NEB. First 2 pitches were pitched then moved together to man trap pitch, then finally pitched 40 ft corner. Seem to remember pitching more on TR to be honest (pitch 1 chimney, little tower, eastern traverse, pitch after chimney, tower gap and last pitch.

Both routes took 5.5 hours done in similar conditions.

In reply to fozzybear: thanks for all the responses guys

In reply to CurlyStevo:
I've only done the N.E. Buttress in summer, and you're quite right, I found the 40' Corner well protected by wires and small cams / hexes. Can imagine these placements being impossible to find in some winter conditions though!

In reply to fozzybear:

Just goes to show how different climbers can have such different experiences on the same routes!

Fingers Ridge to my mind is the ultimate soft IV - reasonably sustained but not very tricky climbing and well protected throughout.

Pygmy Ridge varies greatly with conditions - under powder the first pitch is quite insecure and definitely felt tech 5. Same with Opening Break - the first few moves seemed tech 6 when we did it!

In reply to fozzybear:

I did Kiwi Gully on Hell's Lum today. IV in the current guide and III 4 in SWC. Decide for yourself which it is but could be good for building confidence. It's path if you get it in decent nick.

In reply to DaveHK: I personally had a hard time on kiwi many moons ago, emotional journey for sure, bold and thin as...

In reply to Erik B:

Me too! Was more like IV,3 in the conditions we did it in (much hollow ice). Thankfully not too steep!