This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
I have always tied in with a figure of eight - indoors and out. Last week a friend suggested I learn to tie a bowline. Now I dismissed the suggestion straight away, mainly because I don't have the kind of spatial awareness or whatever it is that helps you learn how to tie knots easily. When I learned to tie a figure of eight, I had to practise it an AWFUL lot before I got the hang of it.
But is there a good reason for me to learn?
But is there a good reason for me to learn?
In reply to Ava Adore: ......for when you go sailing.
In reply to Ava Adore:
Useful if you take lots of falls as they come undone more easily (I use a bowline for sport but a figure of 8 for trad). You can also tie on one handed which is a useful skill if you are in the habit of getting stuck while soloing
Useful if you take lots of falls as they come undone more easily (I use a bowline for sport but a figure of 8 for trad). You can also tie on one handed which is a useful skill if you are in the habit of getting stuck while soloing
In reply to Ava Adore:
yep - one good reason (for me, anyway) is that it's a helluva lot easier to undo than a figure 8 if you've taken falls on it.
yep - one good reason (for me, anyway) is that it's a helluva lot easier to undo than a figure 8 if you've taken falls on it.
In reply to Ava Adore:
There is no compelling reason for learning it. Bowlines release more easily after being repeatedly loaded, but unless you're working routes, with lots of falling off, then probably not much use to you...
There is no compelling reason for learning it. Bowlines release more easily after being repeatedly loaded, but unless you're working routes, with lots of falling off, then probably not much use to you...
In reply to Ava Adore:
When sport climbing, its easy to leave a FO8 in the end of the rope even when you have untied. If someone tries to pull the rope through with this still in place it all gets a bit embarrising.
Other than that, it is quicker and easier to tie than a FO8
When sport climbing, its easy to leave a FO8 in the end of the rope even when you have untied. If someone tries to pull the rope through with this still in place it all gets a bit embarrising.
Other than that, it is quicker and easier to tie than a FO8
In reply to Ava Adore: It's easier to untie after loading. I also think it's easier to tie than a F8. You just need to make sure that it is finished with a double stopper knot.
Al
Al
In reply to Ava Adore:
Up until recently, I'd have probably said you didn't need one, but now you are getting braver and actually falling, off, you may find it more beneficial, purely on the ease of undo after loading!
Up until recently, I'd have probably said you didn't need one, but now you are getting braver and actually falling, off, you may find it more beneficial, purely on the ease of undo after loading!
In reply to Ava Adore:
I use a bowline at walls, as they're quicker to tie and easier to untie when they've been loaded.
Useful for setting up anchors, as they're more easily adjusted than a fig-8.
Handy for tying children in, as the knot, especially the stopper bit, is lower and less likely to hit them in the face if they fall.
Can be tied one-handed.
I use a bowline at walls, as they're quicker to tie and easier to untie when they've been loaded.
Useful for setting up anchors, as they're more easily adjusted than a fig-8.
Handy for tying children in, as the knot, especially the stopper bit, is lower and less likely to hit them in the face if they fall.
Can be tied one-handed.
In reply to Ava Adore: the Bowline with a stopper knot is easier to untie once it has taken a load than the rethreaded figure of eight, so if you climbing involves a lot of falls i.e. working a route pushing your sport grades etc when your arms are pumped you might find the Bowline easier to untie,
I use the Yosemite bowline, rethreaded bowline with a stopper knot, over kill but safe as needed.
I use the Yosemite bowline, rethreaded bowline with a stopper knot, over kill but safe as needed.
In reply to Ava Adore:
Its a great knot, very useful. But if you would find it difficult to learn, and if you'd find you forget how to tie it if you haven't used one for a while, probably not.
> But is there a good reason for me to learn?
Its a great knot, very useful. But if you would find it difficult to learn, and if you'd find you forget how to tie it if you haven't used one for a while, probably not.
In reply to deepsoup: good knot, but if you havent needed in you climbing so far....
fo8 if it isnt broken dont fix it.
fo8 if it isnt broken dont fix it.
In reply to goldmember:
Nonsense. There are many things in climbing that she may not have "needed" so far but that is not say that she will not in future. Some things are not necessary but are convenient.
Al
> (In reply to deepsoup) good knot, but if you havent needed in you climbing so far....
>
> fo8 if it isnt broken dont fix it.
>
> fo8 if it isnt broken dont fix it.
Nonsense. There are many things in climbing that she may not have "needed" so far but that is not say that she will not in future. Some things are not necessary but are convenient.
Al
In reply to Ava Adore: you could add it to your knowledge of knots so that if a situation occurs and a fig 8 is not suitable then you know the bowline as another option.
another string to your bow
another string to your bow
In reply to Ava Adore: I can't think of a reason not to learn it, it is a generally more flexible knot, can be used for a whole variety of things, especially once you are able to tie it from a variety of different perspectives (ie on your harness, around a solid object etc). When supervised it is just as safe as a Fig8, but twice as quick and less faffy. Can be tied one handed (irrelevant party /rope trick).
If you can already tie Fig8, clove hitch, italian hitch and alpine butterfly then this must be the next one to learn.
If you can already tie Fig8, clove hitch, italian hitch and alpine butterfly then this must be the next one to learn.
In reply to Ava Adore:
Worth learning... yes, it's always worth improving your skills especially when it's essentially free to do so.
If you're taking falls it's useful as it unties much easier than a Fig8 afterwards. Perhaps more importantly it's the quickest, simplest way imaginable to sling boulders and large trees for setting up belays.
jk
Worth learning... yes, it's always worth improving your skills especially when it's essentially free to do so.
If you're taking falls it's useful as it unties much easier than a Fig8 afterwards. Perhaps more importantly it's the quickest, simplest way imaginable to sling boulders and large trees for setting up belays.
jk
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants: what i meant, was if the OP is happily tying in using the fo8 safely, why change to a knot which can be tricky to get right and dangerous if tied incorrectly.
In reply to jkarran:
AND the stopper knots are tucked away near your waist belt, not up the rope on the wrong side of the knot (where they can get in the way)
Why wouldn't you use a bowline should be the question...
AND the stopper knots are tucked away near your waist belt, not up the rope on the wrong side of the knot (where they can get in the way)
Why wouldn't you use a bowline should be the question...
In reply to Ava Adore: If you are happy with a figure of 8, there is no reason to learn the bowline. It is however, very useful in the sailing world.
In reply to Ava Adore: What if you're climbing with someone who ties in with a bowline? Good practice says "check each other (knots, harness, belay device)". Can you tell if their knot is correct?
In reply to Ava Adore: You can tie a bowline with one hand with a bit of practice, so if for instance you get stuck soloing you can tie in to a rope lowered down to you.
In reply to Al Evans: But Al, anyone with any sense will lower a rope with a figure 8 already tied and a screw gate attached.
In reply to Ava Adore:
like everyone else has said, quicker to tie, easier to get undone if you take repeated falls, or like hanging in the rope if your of a larger stature. When you are the top of a route (after leading) and threading through bolts its a bit quicker. you don't find left over single fig of eights in the end of you rope, so when you pull the rope down after finishing a climb it gets stuck at the top (seen this happen loads). You tend not to leave a big gap between the stopper and the knot (which will reduce any slack getting back into the main knot) - because the stopper goes close between your harness and knot.
like everyone else has said, quicker to tie, easier to get undone if you take repeated falls, or like hanging in the rope if your of a larger stature. When you are the top of a route (after leading) and threading through bolts its a bit quicker. you don't find left over single fig of eights in the end of you rope, so when you pull the rope down after finishing a climb it gets stuck at the top (seen this happen loads). You tend not to leave a big gap between the stopper and the knot (which will reduce any slack getting back into the main knot) - because the stopper goes close between your harness and knot.
In reply to Ava Adore:
Trawling this document yields some ways in which the figure of eight does better:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/crr_pdf/2001/crr01364.pdf
But the bowline lovers won't care.
Trawling this document yields some ways in which the figure of eight does better:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/crr_pdf/2001/crr01364.pdf
But the bowline lovers won't care.
In reply to Ava Adore:
The tail is on the harness side of the knot out of the way, with a rethreaded figure of eight it comes out parallel to the live rope and I have seen people (who, to be fair, left a tail that was far too long) reach down and grab the tail when trying to clip.
The tail is on the harness side of the knot out of the way, with a rethreaded figure of eight it comes out parallel to the live rope and I have seen people (who, to be fair, left a tail that was far too long) reach down and grab the tail when trying to clip.
In reply to Ava Adore: It's easier to untie after loading, it is a neater (smaller knot) and it is prettier than FO8?
In reply to Ava Adore: I find it quite handy when im tying the rope around something large. With a fig.8 its quite hard to guess the amount of rope you need, but with a bowline you dont have that problem. Its a pretty marginal advantage though.
In reply to rubbercrumb:
Playing devil's advocate for a moment: I don't use a bowline for tying in even at the wall where falls are ten a penny. I don't because I can't be bothered tying stopper knots and I'm more likely to get away with a half arsed fig8 than a half tied bowline should I get distracted or miss something.
I do use a bowline for outdoor sport where falls tend to be bigger, I'm less likely to be distracted and more likely to double check everything as part of my setting off ritual.
Sloppy... yeah a bit, but realistic.
jk
> Why wouldn't you use a bowline should be the question...
Playing devil's advocate for a moment: I don't use a bowline for tying in even at the wall where falls are ten a penny. I don't because I can't be bothered tying stopper knots and I'm more likely to get away with a half arsed fig8 than a half tied bowline should I get distracted or miss something.
I do use a bowline for outdoor sport where falls tend to be bigger, I'm less likely to be distracted and more likely to double check everything as part of my setting off ritual.
Sloppy... yeah a bit, but realistic.
jk
In reply to Mark Kemball:
So what do you attatch the screwgate to if you are soloing without a harness?
> (In reply to Al Evans) But Al, anyone with any sense will lower a rope with a figure 8 already tied and a screw gate attached.
So what do you attatch the screwgate to if you are soloing without a harness?
In reply to Swig:
A quick scan of that document reveals it to be a slightly stronger knot (which I already knew) but since any force large enough to break the knot greatly exceeds the force required to completely break me I don't see why that has any practical benefit.
> Trawling this document yields some ways in which the figure of eight does better:
> http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/crr_pdf/2001/crr01364.pdf
> http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/crr_pdf/2001/crr01364.pdf
A quick scan of that document reveals it to be a slightly stronger knot (which I already knew) but since any force large enough to break the knot greatly exceeds the force required to completely break me I don't see why that has any practical benefit.
In reply to Swig:
The fact that a Fig8 is about 10-20% stronger than a bowline when loaded terminally is of little relevance to a climber. If however you are dealing with large loads such as those involved in rescue and industrial work, then these figures become more critical to stay within a large safety margin. Hence why the HSE contracted Lyon to carry out the work, as they are specialist retailers and trainers in this field. They are also 'probably' the only UK company with the facilities to carry out these kind of tests accurately at their Tebay warehouse, which has rigs and platforms built indoors for just such a thing. Not to mention force meters, the pulling equipment and the like.. starting to sound quite industrial isn't it... so us bowline lovers aren't that worried about our sub100kg bodies hanging off a bowline
> (In reply to Ava Adore)
>
> Trawling this document yields some ways in which the figure of eight does better:
> http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/crr_pdf/2001/crr01364.pdf
>
> But the bowline lovers won't care.
>
> Trawling this document yields some ways in which the figure of eight does better:
> http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/crr_pdf/2001/crr01364.pdf
>
> But the bowline lovers won't care.
The fact that a Fig8 is about 10-20% stronger than a bowline when loaded terminally is of little relevance to a climber. If however you are dealing with large loads such as those involved in rescue and industrial work, then these figures become more critical to stay within a large safety margin. Hence why the HSE contracted Lyon to carry out the work, as they are specialist retailers and trainers in this field. They are also 'probably' the only UK company with the facilities to carry out these kind of tests accurately at their Tebay warehouse, which has rigs and platforms built indoors for just such a thing. Not to mention force meters, the pulling equipment and the like.. starting to sound quite industrial isn't it... so us bowline lovers aren't that worried about our sub100kg bodies hanging off a bowline
In reply to Ava Adore: Brilliant for tieing an ab rope around a huge boulder or similar somewhere like Pembrokeshire/Lundy.
In reply to summo:
I wasn't thinking of that point actually. But this is all a distraction from the discussion of the wonderful bowline.
I wasn't thinking of that point actually. But this is all a distraction from the discussion of the wonderful bowline.
In reply to Ava Adore:
Brilliant answers, thank you. I particularly liked Lynda's comment that it's prettier
Seriously, yes, as Stacey says, I am practising leader falls, and that was the context in which it was recommended to me. But I didn't find my F08 particularly hard to untie afterwards.
Reading all this through, simply to add to my knowledge is not a good enough rationale for me - as I've previously stated, I don't find knot tying an easy thing to learn and I'm concerned that I would mess it up and not be able to easily tell.
The only reason I really would want to learn is, as one poster suggested, so that I'm able to tell whether a partner has tied in correctly (after the suggestion was made last week, my partner tied in with a bowline to demonstrate and it bothered me that I had no idea whether it was fine or not).
Thanks again, all.
Brilliant answers, thank you. I particularly liked Lynda's comment that it's prettier
Seriously, yes, as Stacey says, I am practising leader falls, and that was the context in which it was recommended to me. But I didn't find my F08 particularly hard to untie afterwards.
Reading all this through, simply to add to my knowledge is not a good enough rationale for me - as I've previously stated, I don't find knot tying an easy thing to learn and I'm concerned that I would mess it up and not be able to easily tell.
The only reason I really would want to learn is, as one poster suggested, so that I'm able to tell whether a partner has tied in correctly (after the suggestion was made last week, my partner tied in with a bowline to demonstrate and it bothered me that I had no idea whether it was fine or not).
Thanks again, all.
In reply to lynda:
And there we have the compelling reason for Ava to use a bowline!
> (In reply to Ava Adore) ....... and it is prettier than FO8?
And there we have the compelling reason for Ava to use a bowline!
In reply to Ava Adore:
Years ago as a scout I enjoyed learning knots and had a fairly large knowledge of them. So much so I spent an evening teaching a room of teenagers them about 5 years ago, The got bored though.
I recon no real reason to learn being such a lightweight, other than to be able to check someone elses. I recon it is easier to learn than a FO8 rethreaded though!.
Oh and didn't see you comment re being prettier, till I had posted it, great minds egh!
Years ago as a scout I enjoyed learning knots and had a fairly large knowledge of them. So much so I spent an evening teaching a room of teenagers them about 5 years ago, The got bored though.
I recon no real reason to learn being such a lightweight, other than to be able to check someone elses. I recon it is easier to learn than a FO8 rethreaded though!.
Oh and didn't see you comment re being prettier, till I had posted it, great minds egh!
In reply to goldmember:
Tricky? How do you folks cope with driving a car and setting a video-recorder?
youtube.com/watch?v=sP-jB5Vsv0s&
Simples!
Chris
> (In reply to Al Randall) what i meant, was if the OP is happily tying in using the fo8 safely, why change to a knot which can be tricky to get right and dangerous if tied incorrectly.
Tricky? How do you folks cope with driving a car and setting a video-recorder?
youtube.com/watch?v=sP-jB5Vsv0s&
Simples!
Chris
In reply to EeeByGum: I was wondering, what is a bowling used for in sailing, is it anything that couldn't be done with a double fig 8?
In reply to John Lewis and Ava: Added the last one in just for you Ava! Though I do think it is the prettiest knot out of all of them (the fisherman's knot a close second)
In reply to marsbar: One problem with a re-threaded F8, although minor, is that you need to have some idea of the amount of rope required to go round the object so that you know where, along the rope, to tie the first 8.
Al
Al
In reply to lynda:
Like your sense of humour, Lynda
> (In reply to John Lewis and Ava) Added the last one in just for you Ava! Though I do think it is the prettiest knot out of all of them (the fisherman's knot a close second)
Like your sense of humour, Lynda
In reply to marsbar:
It can be easily undone when it has been tied for months and had huge loads applied. Not true of a Fo8.
Chris
> (In reply to EeeByGum) I was wondering, what is a bowling used for in sailing, is it anything that couldn't be done with a double fig 8?
It can be easily undone when it has been tied for months and had huge loads applied. Not true of a Fo8.
Chris
In reply to marsbar:
Historically the bowline was used in sailing to tie the yard of a square sail to the bow of the boat when sailing up wind. ie it was used to secure the 'bow line'
These days it would be more commonly used to tie the halyard to the head of a sail, or to tie a boat to a mooring buoy, but it is more common to see a snap shackle, carbine hook (karabiner) or another knot which is faster to tie used for these things.
You could use a rethreaded figure of eight in all these sailing situations, but people don't because the bowline is faster to tie and untie.
So it's like climbing really, people use a bowline because it is faster.
> (In reply to EeeByGum) I was wondering, what is a bowling used for in sailing, is it anything that couldn't be done with a double fig 8?
Historically the bowline was used in sailing to tie the yard of a square sail to the bow of the boat when sailing up wind. ie it was used to secure the 'bow line'
These days it would be more commonly used to tie the halyard to the head of a sail, or to tie a boat to a mooring buoy, but it is more common to see a snap shackle, carbine hook (karabiner) or another knot which is faster to tie used for these things.
You could use a rethreaded figure of eight in all these sailing situations, but people don't because the bowline is faster to tie and untie.
So it's like climbing really, people use a bowline because it is faster.
In reply to EddInaBox:
..and that's why i always carry an emergency 6" masonary nail, coachbolt and "leaver biner"
> (In reply to Al Evans)
>
> Your Prince Albert?
>
> Your Prince Albert?
..and that's why i always carry an emergency 6" masonary nail, coachbolt and "leaver biner"
In reply to Ava Adore: a bowlines a great knot to learn .very handy when used to tow a car as it can be released easy even when tugged on (pardon the phrase) really quick to tie if done right and will not slip.i have also used it in some climbing situations but not to tie into harness. a fo8 is still my choice.
In reply to Ava Adore:
Because you can then sing any number of sea shanties with a more authoritative air; "Haul on the Bowline, our bully ship's a-rollin'..." etc
Because you can then sing any number of sea shanties with a more authoritative air; "Haul on the Bowline, our bully ship's a-rollin'..." etc
In reply to Ava Adore: I've use it to tie my chalk bag round my waist and it's also good for throwing a quick rope round your waist in emergencies when out winter walking or scrambling when i haven't got my harness on or as Al said if droppin a rope to a crag bound soloist.
In reply to Ava Adore:
If you go scrambling, then you tie on with a bowline if you feel the need for a rope.
Similarly the ability to tie yourself to a boulder/similar, or to use an alpine-style belay come in useful.
Otherwise you have to carry/wear a harness as well, along with yet more gear. Rather defeats the object if you're going for a (lightweight) scramble.
If you go scrambling, then you tie on with a bowline if you feel the need for a rope.
Similarly the ability to tie yourself to a boulder/similar, or to use an alpine-style belay come in useful.
Otherwise you have to carry/wear a harness as well, along with yet more gear. Rather defeats the object if you're going for a (lightweight) scramble.
In reply to Mark Kemball:
A couple of my regular partners quote that to me as a reason why I *shouldn't* use a bowline, because they don't feel able to assess it. Neverthess I prefer it for redpointing & falling practice.
One problem is the large number of confusing "Yosemite" etc. variants. I recently learned the German Alpine Club double version, where instead of a stopper you simply take enough rope through to re-thread the whole knot. Secure and visually clean, therefore easy to check (contrary to my partner's opinions)
(Hi, btw. I think we last met in Manchester ca 1986)
> (In reply to Ava Adore) What if you're climbing with someone who ties in with a bowline? Good practice says "check each other (knots, harness, belay device)". Can you tell if their knot is correct?
A couple of my regular partners quote that to me as a reason why I *shouldn't* use a bowline, because they don't feel able to assess it. Neverthess I prefer it for redpointing & falling practice.
One problem is the large number of confusing "Yosemite" etc. variants. I recently learned the German Alpine Club double version, where instead of a stopper you simply take enough rope through to re-thread the whole knot. Secure and visually clean, therefore easy to check (contrary to my partner's opinions)
(Hi, btw. I think we last met in Manchester ca 1986)
In reply to AlanLittle:
This one?
youtube.com/watch?v=KUHA_DuJXng&
> ... I recently learned the German Alpine Club double version...
This one?
youtube.com/watch?v=KUHA_DuJXng&
In reply to rubbercrumb:
I can see alot of people here prefer the bowline for valid reasons:
- Quicker and easier to tie and adjust.
- Easier to untie after loading.
- Can tie one handed.
- Can be used to easily make a waist loop if you don't have a harness.
And so I think it is worth knowing how to do one...
However, personally I prefer the figure of 8 because:
- Easier to see if tied correctly (in my opinion)
- Doesn't depend on a stopper knot to make it safe (I've heard that bowlines without a stopper can slip*), and in my experience stopper knots can come undone, particularly when faffing around on an awkward trad routes.
- I'd rather use one knot for tying in all the time.
*Someone in our club tied in on bowline only, knot failed - nasty injuries but survived (hearsay, I know, but I trust the person who told me).
I can see alot of people here prefer the bowline for valid reasons:
- Quicker and easier to tie and adjust.
- Easier to untie after loading.
- Can tie one handed.
- Can be used to easily make a waist loop if you don't have a harness.
And so I think it is worth knowing how to do one...
However, personally I prefer the figure of 8 because:
- Easier to see if tied correctly (in my opinion)
- Doesn't depend on a stopper knot to make it safe (I've heard that bowlines without a stopper can slip*), and in my experience stopper knots can come undone, particularly when faffing around on an awkward trad routes.
- I'd rather use one knot for tying in all the time.
*Someone in our club tied in on bowline only, knot failed - nasty injuries but survived (hearsay, I know, but I trust the person who told me).
In reply to Ava Adore:
<bows> I can but try
> (In reply to lynda)
> [...]
>
> Like your sense of humour, Lynda
> [...]
>
> Like your sense of humour, Lynda
<bows> I can but try
In reply to Ava Adore: the day we stop learning is the day we become old and die
In reply to EddInaBox:
That's the knot, although I disagree with the guy saying it's a "very complex knot requiring considerable practice" - I picked it up the first time I was shown it- and with dodgy DAV practice of tying in to the belay loop. (Which I'm sure isn't dodgy really, but I can't see any good reason for it)
> (In reply to AlanLittle)
>
> This one?
>
> This one?
That's the knot, although I disagree with the guy saying it's a "very complex knot requiring considerable practice" - I picked it up the first time I was shown it- and with dodgy DAV practice of tying in to the belay loop. (Which I'm sure isn't dodgy really, but I can't see any good reason for it)
In reply to Ava Adore:
I had to practise it an AWFUL lot before I got the hang of it.
I had to practise it an AWFUL lot before I got the hang of it.
>
> We were taught to tie a bowline by thinking of the end of the rope as a rabbit. Make the first loop, then the "rabbit" comes out of it's hole (the loop) round the tree (the rope above the loop) then back down into the hole (the loop) It worked.
> We were taught to tie a bowline by thinking of the end of the rope as a rabbit. Make the first loop, then the "rabbit" comes out of it's hole (the loop) round the tree (the rope above the loop) then back down into the hole (the loop) It worked.
In reply to AlanLittle:
I assumed tying through the belay loop was just done for the video, being quicker and slightly easier to see what was going on, do those who use it normally tie in through the belay loop?
I assumed tying through the belay loop was just done for the video, being quicker and slightly easier to see what was going on, do those who use it normally tie in through the belay loop?
In reply to pyle:
IMHO this is why folk find it difficult (or difficult to be sure they've done it right, because it doesn't tell you *which* way to make the loop). So I'd say forget the rabbits and trees, learn to form the loop (with tail ready to feed through) by crossing the rope and twisting, and there'll never be the slightest doubt about any of it.
> Make the first loop, then the "rabbit" comes out of it's hole
IMHO this is why folk find it difficult (or difficult to be sure they've done it right, because it doesn't tell you *which* way to make the loop). So I'd say forget the rabbits and trees, learn to form the loop (with tail ready to feed through) by crossing the rope and twisting, and there'll never be the slightest doubt about any of it.
In reply to Ava Adore: I always used a bowline, I say used as I've not climbed on rock or ice in a few years, 4 kids have put a stop to it. I was taught to climb by Mark and Roland Edwards and they showed me this method http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-dSr70_tZU&feature=related, the comments above are very good and I would agree with the pros and cons mentioned.
In reply to marsbar:
Undoing under load would be a practical problem. The ability to untie the bowline under load is a major plus. Even a small boat is generally a lot heavier than your average anorexic climber, after your boat has been bobbing up and down on the tide over winter I'd hate to think how I'd get a f8 undone
But there's also the history/convention. Just as most modern climbers learn a f8 at a wall, most sailors learn a bowline (it's generally regarded as the one knot you wouldn't leave port without knowing, most sailors mutter about rabits comming out the hole, going round the tree and back down the hole in their sleep).
> (In reply to EeeByGum) I was wondering, what is a bowling used for in sailing, is it anything that couldn't be done with a double fig 8?
Undoing under load would be a practical problem. The ability to untie the bowline under load is a major plus. Even a small boat is generally a lot heavier than your average anorexic climber, after your boat has been bobbing up and down on the tide over winter I'd hate to think how I'd get a f8 undone
But there's also the history/convention. Just as most modern climbers learn a f8 at a wall, most sailors learn a bowline (it's generally regarded as the one knot you wouldn't leave port without knowing, most sailors mutter about rabits comming out the hole, going round the tree and back down the hole in their sleep).
In reply to check:
The trouble with that method is you don't end up with a bowline! If you look carefully at that video what he has actually tied is a Dutch marine or cowboy bowline (ABoK #1034½) you can see the same thing in the pictures for the Edwards Bowline how to http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=4 .
The trouble with that method is you don't end up with a bowline! If you look carefully at that video what he has actually tied is a Dutch marine or cowboy bowline (ABoK #1034½) you can see the same thing in the pictures for the Edwards Bowline how to http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=4 .
In reply to Ava Adore:
I've happily come home to the bowline in the last ten years or so after a number of years with the bloody awful FO8. All the advantages mentioned above. There are numerous locking finishes which make a stopper knot unnecessary, most of which involve passing the free end through the trapping-loop. As well as an effective lock it increases the loop's minimum radius and reduces the extent to which the system is weakened. The Edwards bowline, mentioned above, is one such, an end-bound yosemite bowline. It's the nearest to the holy-grail of tie-ins I've ever seen. It's not a beginner's knot, but I'm not a beginner, and neither are you.
I've happily come home to the bowline in the last ten years or so after a number of years with the bloody awful FO8. All the advantages mentioned above. There are numerous locking finishes which make a stopper knot unnecessary, most of which involve passing the free end through the trapping-loop. As well as an effective lock it increases the loop's minimum radius and reduces the extent to which the system is weakened. The Edwards bowline, mentioned above, is one such, an end-bound yosemite bowline. It's the nearest to the holy-grail of tie-ins I've ever seen. It's not a beginner's knot, but I'm not a beginner, and neither are you.
In reply to Chris Craggs: The OP commented that they stuggled tying the fo8 knot. The bowline as other people have comment is easy to get wrong and can be hard to tell when it is tied wrong, with terrible results.
>>they are good for tying ropes around very large boulders.
and your waist, and trees etc. Handy but if you use a F8 for tying in stick with that.
and your waist, and trees etc. Handy but if you use a F8 for tying in stick with that.
In reply to goldmember:
When did learning to tie a bowline become difficult?
If you can learn to tie a figure 8 surely it's not difficult to learn to tie a bowline.
If you can't tell if a knot is tied correctly then maybe climbing just isn't for you.
> The bowline as other people have comment is easy to get wrong and can be hard to tell when it is tied wrong, with terrible results.
When did learning to tie a bowline become difficult?
If you can learn to tie a figure 8 surely it's not difficult to learn to tie a bowline.
If you can't tell if a knot is tied correctly then maybe climbing just isn't for you.
In reply to EddInaBox:
DAV teaches that either is acceptable & safe. I was a little shocked when my wife came back from her beginners' course doing the belay loop method; I had never seen it before, told her I didn't like it, and got her to switch to tying in the normal way. Which most people do, including German bowline users.
I did google around a bit though, and it seems the belay loop tie-in is actually ok. Somehwat negates the compactness advantage of the bowline though.
> I assumed tying through the belay loop was just done for the video, being quicker and slightly easier to see what was going on, do those who use it normally tie in through the belay loop?
DAV teaches that either is acceptable & safe. I was a little shocked when my wife came back from her beginners' course doing the belay loop method; I had never seen it before, told her I didn't like it, and got her to switch to tying in the normal way. Which most people do, including German bowline users.
I did google around a bit though, and it seems the belay loop tie-in is actually ok. Somehwat negates the compactness advantage of the bowline though.
In reply to goldmember:
Is this actually true though, especially the bit about it being 'hard to tell' if it is wrong. If you don't create the loop properly doesn't the whole thing just fall apart?
Chris
> The bowline as other people have comment is easy to get wrong and can be hard to tell when it is tied wrong, with terrible results.
Is this actually true though, especially the bit about it being 'hard to tell' if it is wrong. If you don't create the loop properly doesn't the whole thing just fall apart?
Chris
In reply to Ava Adore:
Stick to what you are happy with
Stick to what you are happy with
In reply to Mark Kemball:
I have never bothered learning a bowline. When I have climbed with someone who uses one I either watch them doing it and therefore make them concentrate on what they are doing, or make them undo it and tie it again if they did one without me seeing it. Or ask them to use a rethreaded FO8 in this instance, which they have done. I don't see the point in learning a knot just to check if someone else has tied one properly.
Sx
> (In reply to Ava Adore) What if you're climbing with someone who ties in with a bowline? Good practice says "check each other (knots, harness, belay device)". Can you tell if their knot is correct?
I have never bothered learning a bowline. When I have climbed with someone who uses one I either watch them doing it and therefore make them concentrate on what they are doing, or make them undo it and tie it again if they did one without me seeing it. Or ask them to use a rethreaded FO8 in this instance, which they have done. I don't see the point in learning a knot just to check if someone else has tied one properly.
Sx
In reply to Chris Craggs:
No, it's one of the great manufactured myths of knot tying! Hence the development of yet another circular UKC Forums thread (which won't be the last) on the subject...
> Is this actually true though
No, it's one of the great manufactured myths of knot tying! Hence the development of yet another circular UKC Forums thread (which won't be the last) on the subject...
In reply to Sarah G:
I'm guessing the words "academic interest", "alternative technique" and "other possible scenarios" don't feature to highly in your climbing?
> (In reply to Mark Kemball)
> [...]
>
> I have never bothered learning a bowline. ...I don't see the point in learning a knot.
> [...]
>
> I have never bothered learning a bowline. ...I don't see the point in learning a knot.
I'm guessing the words "academic interest", "alternative technique" and "other possible scenarios" don't feature to highly in your climbing?
In reply to Sarah G:
How can you question someones knot tying and general climbing competence when you can't even be bothered to learn a basic knot?
If you're that concerned about safety, why not learn how to tie the bowline. You don't have to use it, but at least You'll know if someone elses is tied correctly.
How can you question someones knot tying and general climbing competence when you can't even be bothered to learn a basic knot?
If you're that concerned about safety, why not learn how to tie the bowline. You don't have to use it, but at least You'll know if someone elses is tied correctly.
In reply to willjones:
The main reason for me is none of the above - its so that I can't inadvertantly leave a fig 8 stopper knot in the rope and getting it stuck whilst trying to pull it through. Nearly happened outside once but we managed to scramble up to catch the end in time - then again to someone else at the wall 9where it doesn't matter so much).
> (In reply to rubbercrumb)
>
> I can see alot of people here prefer the bowline for valid reasons:
> - Quicker and easier to tie and adjust.
> - Easier to untie after loading.
> - Can tie one handed.
> - Can be used to easily make a waist loop if you don't have a harness.As
>
> I can see alot of people here prefer the bowline for valid reasons:
> - Quicker and easier to tie and adjust.
> - Easier to untie after loading.
> - Can tie one handed.
> - Can be used to easily make a waist loop if you don't have a harness.As
The main reason for me is none of the above - its so that I can't inadvertantly leave a fig 8 stopper knot in the rope and getting it stuck whilst trying to pull it through. Nearly happened outside once but we managed to scramble up to catch the end in time - then again to someone else at the wall 9where it doesn't matter so much).
In reply to Ava Adore:
I'd include it in the category of basic climbing/mountaineering skills.
Imagine a situation where the only gear you have is a bit of rope and you need to get someone down a tricky bit - do you confess you climb but can't help them even though there is a rope available?
I have used a rope alone and bowline knots to take the kids scrambling and also I have accepted the offer of a rope to continue a winter route that I would otherwise have had to walk down from as I didn't think the conditions merited soloing further. If I hadn't had the knowledge the opportunity would have been lost.
As I said, it's a basic skill and I regarded it as a gap in my knowledge until I had learned it and practiced it. Also learning how to shorten the rope using coils without a carabiner is useful.
I'd include it in the category of basic climbing/mountaineering skills.
Imagine a situation where the only gear you have is a bit of rope and you need to get someone down a tricky bit - do you confess you climb but can't help them even though there is a rope available?
I have used a rope alone and bowline knots to take the kids scrambling and also I have accepted the offer of a rope to continue a winter route that I would otherwise have had to walk down from as I didn't think the conditions merited soloing further. If I hadn't had the knowledge the opportunity would have been lost.
As I said, it's a basic skill and I regarded it as a gap in my knowledge until I had learned it and practiced it. Also learning how to shorten the rope using coils without a carabiner is useful.
In reply to Sarah G:
Guess it'll be fairly unlikely that you'll be learning the "bowline on a bight" or "triple bowline" either - both of most definitely have their uses.
> (In reply to Mark Kemball)
> [...]
>
> I have never bothered learning a bowline.
> [...]
>
> I have never bothered learning a bowline.
Guess it'll be fairly unlikely that you'll be learning the "bowline on a bight" or "triple bowline" either - both of most definitely have their uses.
In reply to Ava Adore:
Fig8 can get quite hard to untie after several falls but you're right, it generally isn't too bad after one or two small falls. Bowline is however trivially easy to untie in the same situation.
I have managed to tie one I had to cut out but I'd been towing a car on it
To be brutally honest, if you do any outdoor climbing that is the main reason to learn it and it's a compelling one, it's a genuinely useful knot that's often the best solution to a problem.
They're not actually hard to tie and if you get it wrong it just falls apart in your hands so you try again, when it's right it's obvious mostly because it's so simple.
Tie one (without a stopper) then have a good look at it for a couple of minutes while you poke and pull at it. Once you understand how it works (again, it's gloriously simple) it becomes easy to check it's tied correctly and there are no tricks (Rabbits, trick twists etc) needed.
There's no reason to to at least try to learn it, so long as you stopper it it's nearly impossible to make an unsafe one.
jk
> Seriously, yes, as Stacey says, I am practising leader falls, and that was the context in which it was recommended to me. But I didn't find my F08 particularly hard to untie afterwards.
Fig8 can get quite hard to untie after several falls but you're right, it generally isn't too bad after one or two small falls. Bowline is however trivially easy to untie in the same situation.
I have managed to tie one I had to cut out but I'd been towing a car on it
> Reading all this through, simply to add to my knowledge is not a good enough rationale for me - as I've previously stated, I don't find knot tying an easy thing to learn and I'm concerned that I would mess it up and not be able to easily tell.
To be brutally honest, if you do any outdoor climbing that is the main reason to learn it and it's a compelling one, it's a genuinely useful knot that's often the best solution to a problem.
They're not actually hard to tie and if you get it wrong it just falls apart in your hands so you try again, when it's right it's obvious mostly because it's so simple.
Tie one (without a stopper) then have a good look at it for a couple of minutes while you poke and pull at it. Once you understand how it works (again, it's gloriously simple) it becomes easy to check it's tied correctly and there are no tricks (Rabbits, trick twists etc) needed.
There's no reason to to at least try to learn it, so long as you stopper it it's nearly impossible to make an unsafe one.
jk
In reply to richparry:
Prize for the most helpful comment in the thread. I shall now give up climbing.
*rolls eyes*
> (In reply to goldmember)
> [...]
>
> >
> If you can't tell if a knot is tied correctly then maybe climbing just isn't for you.
> [...]
>
> >
> If you can't tell if a knot is tied correctly then maybe climbing just isn't for you.
Prize for the most helpful comment in the thread. I shall now give up climbing.
*rolls eyes*
In reply to wercat: I hope you don't think I am asking a daft question ( I am just trying to improve my knowledge), I know the bowline might be quicker/better but if I was in that situation and I couldn't remember my bowline is there a reason not to use the knot I know double or rethreaded 8?
I am sure I learned at some point, and I'm usually good at knots, but the bowline is one that has never really stuck, probably because I've never used it much.
I might go and practise.
I am sure I learned at some point, and I'm usually good at knots, but the bowline is one that has never really stuck, probably because I've never used it much.
I might go and practise.
In reply to Ava Adore: Quite. Me too then. Wanna go shopping?
In reply to tlm: Ah that explains it ...
In reply to marsbar:
Woo, yes. Shoes. And cake.
> (In reply to Ava Adore) Quite. Me too then. Wanna go shopping?
Woo, yes. Shoes. And cake.
In reply to tlm:
*chortles*
*chortles*
In reply to Ava Adore:
While I can see why you think this isn't a particularly helpful comment, the harsh reality is that whether you like it or not, being able to tie knots correctly EVERY TIME is an intrinsically vital part of climbing. If you or your partner get it wrong, the consequence don't bear thinking about. I know one of my friends got it wrong once - and is now no longer with us. If you can't accept this reality, then perhaps climbing may not indeed be for you.
This isn't meant to be a criticism in any way, so please don't take it as such.
While I can see why you think this isn't a particularly helpful comment, the harsh reality is that whether you like it or not, being able to tie knots correctly EVERY TIME is an intrinsically vital part of climbing. If you or your partner get it wrong, the consequence don't bear thinking about. I know one of my friends got it wrong once - and is now no longer with us. If you can't accept this reality, then perhaps climbing may not indeed be for you.
This isn't meant to be a criticism in any way, so please don't take it as such.
In reply to Ava Adore:
For the first 15 years I climbed, I never felt the need to learn how to tie a bowline and I managed fine wihtout it.
I always use it for single (only) pitch climbing now for reasons probably already stated.
For the first 15 years I climbed, I never felt the need to learn how to tie a bowline and I managed fine wihtout it.
I always use it for single (only) pitch climbing now for reasons probably already stated.
In reply to marsbar:
I think the situations I meant were with a rope only - no harness. So using the old technique of tying a waist loop for someone requiring a rope.
I've never tried to rethread an 8 for this purpose but my immediate reaction would be that it would be difficult to adjust and get out of - the bowline is easily adjusted to the required tightness before use.
BTW I never led with one, except to take the rope for the benefit of a second up up something I could climb without a rope. Leader fall on a bowline is not for me!
I think the situations I meant were with a rope only - no harness. So using the old technique of tying a waist loop for someone requiring a rope.
I've never tried to rethread an 8 for this purpose but my immediate reaction would be that it would be difficult to adjust and get out of - the bowline is easily adjusted to the required tightness before use.
BTW I never led with one, except to take the rope for the benefit of a second up up something I could climb without a rope. Leader fall on a bowline is not for me!
In reply to Ava Adore: Lerning bad! Ignorince good.
In reply to wercat:
I agreee the bowline is a useful and basic knot and mountaineers will find many use for it. I am a big fan of the knot.
However it is perfectly possible to overcome the situation described without tying a bowline at all: with nothing but the humble overhand knot. It can be rethreaded to create a well fitting waist loop or to use a thread anchor, or tied on a bight to use a spike anchor or a make waist loop for the (body) belayer.
A thompson knot(simply an overhand tied in many strands)can even create a full body harness to lower someone if necessary.
Non bowline people need not feel lacking if all they have is a rope in the mountains, so long as they have thier heads screwed on and the time to adjust a few overhand knots.
> (In reply to Ava Adore)
>
> I'd include it in the category of basic climbing/mountaineering skills.
>
> Imagine a situation where the only gear you have is a bit of rope and you need to get someone down a tricky bit - do you confess you climb but can't help them even though there is a rope available?
>
>>
> I'd include it in the category of basic climbing/mountaineering skills.
>
> Imagine a situation where the only gear you have is a bit of rope and you need to get someone down a tricky bit - do you confess you climb but can't help them even though there is a rope available?
>
I agreee the bowline is a useful and basic knot and mountaineers will find many use for it. I am a big fan of the knot.
However it is perfectly possible to overcome the situation described without tying a bowline at all: with nothing but the humble overhand knot. It can be rethreaded to create a well fitting waist loop or to use a thread anchor, or tied on a bight to use a spike anchor or a make waist loop for the (body) belayer.
A thompson knot(simply an overhand tied in many strands)can even create a full body harness to lower someone if necessary.
Non bowline people need not feel lacking if all they have is a rope in the mountains, so long as they have thier heads screwed on and the time to adjust a few overhand knots.
In reply to peter myers:
indeed all true - in fact 2 or three long slings that can be joined can be handy as well if that's all you've got. Having your head screwed on is definitely the most important bit with or without gear.
Bowline simply gives you more flexibility and is so easily used.
indeed all true - in fact 2 or three long slings that can be joined can be handy as well if that's all you've got. Having your head screwed on is definitely the most important bit with or without gear.
Bowline simply gives you more flexibility and is so easily used.
In reply to EddInaBox:
and what's the problem with the dutch marine vs "regular" bowline?
(especially when doubled as the germans do, that's the way i use it)
> (In reply to check)
>
> The trouble with that method is you don't end up with a bowline! If you look carefully at that video what he has actually tied is a Dutch marine or cowboy bowline (ABoK #1034½).
>
> The trouble with that method is you don't end up with a bowline! If you look carefully at that video what he has actually tied is a Dutch marine or cowboy bowline (ABoK #1034½).
and what's the problem with the dutch marine vs "regular" bowline?
(especially when doubled as the germans do, that's the way i use it)
In reply to marsbar:
You would use it for anything where you wanted to loop something without the knot slipping. Examples might be tying a rope to a small anchor or in the bow line used for towing or mooring. I think I used a bowline for securing my main sheet and kicking strap at some point. Anything really.
That said, I am a figure of 8 man in climbing unless I get to the top, walk back, untie and then tie the rope off on a massive boulder or tree for belaying. I've always used an 8 and never had reason to stop.
> (In reply to EeeByGum) I was wondering, what is a bowling used for in sailing, is it anything that couldn't be done with a double fig 8?
You would use it for anything where you wanted to loop something without the knot slipping. Examples might be tying a rope to a small anchor or in the bow line used for towing or mooring. I think I used a bowline for securing my main sheet and kicking strap at some point. Anything really.
That said, I am a figure of 8 man in climbing unless I get to the top, walk back, untie and then tie the rope off on a massive boulder or tree for belaying. I've always used an 8 and never had reason to stop.
In reply to Ava Adore: Speaking from experience, a bowline can come undone a lot easier than a figure of 8 if you don't pull it properly tight to start with - because climbing rope has some stiffness it's possible to 'push' the tail back out through the knot.
Figure of 8's become impossible to undo without tools (pliers and a fid) if you load them heavily. My experience was about 10x factor 1 falls using a figure of 8 tied in the middle of a bight of 10.5mm dynamic rope to form a V used for low-level bridge jumping. Bowlines are easy to undo due to the lack of internal friction in the knot. Mooring ropes continuously cyclicly loaded will muller-up pretty much any knot so it can't be undone apart from a bowline.
I have also been stuck on a route and had to tie into a lowered rope one-handed - the bowline wins hands-down in that situation believe me!!!
Go and learn to tie one, it's not that hard - if dyslexic 10yr old scouts can manage it then so can you!!
Figure of 8's become impossible to undo without tools (pliers and a fid) if you load them heavily. My experience was about 10x factor 1 falls using a figure of 8 tied in the middle of a bight of 10.5mm dynamic rope to form a V used for low-level bridge jumping. Bowlines are easy to undo due to the lack of internal friction in the knot. Mooring ropes continuously cyclicly loaded will muller-up pretty much any knot so it can't be undone apart from a bowline.
I have also been stuck on a route and had to tie into a lowered rope one-handed - the bowline wins hands-down in that situation believe me!!!
Go and learn to tie one, it's not that hard - if dyslexic 10yr old scouts can manage it then so can you!!
In reply to ghisino:
Now there's a question, there probably isn't any great difference between the performance of the two knots, although Ashley reckons it is ‘distinctly inferior’ for some reason, but I am not suggesting that, I am simply saying as a method for tying a regular bowline it has a pretty big flaw. The Dutch marine bowline is possibly better when it comes to loading across the loop, as might happen when belaying off the rope loop whilst using the same to tie into one's anchors, although the figure of eight with its well known tendency to roll would presumably be a much worse choice.
Now there's a question, there probably isn't any great difference between the performance of the two knots, although Ashley reckons it is ‘distinctly inferior’ for some reason, but I am not suggesting that, I am simply saying as a method for tying a regular bowline it has a pretty big flaw. The Dutch marine bowline is possibly better when it comes to loading across the loop, as might happen when belaying off the rope loop whilst using the same to tie into one's anchors, although the figure of eight with its well known tendency to roll would presumably be a much worse choice.
In reply to Chris Craggs:
In reply to Chris Craggs: Years ago, in the Alps, I saw someone tie in supposedly with a bowline (not my partner). As soon as he weighted the rope the knot came completely undone and he took a 60ft unroped fall down a crevasse, luckily only resulting in bruises (and us having to rescue him)
I didnt see the knot he tied close up, but the fact that it was a bit dark and everyone was tired must have contributed to his mistake.
Ever since, I've rarely used the bowline. It seems to me that the fig 8 is that bit safer because its symmetry makes it almost impossible to tie in a way which could fail.
> (In reply to goldmember)
> [...]
>
> Is this actually true though, especially the bit about it being 'hard to tell' if it is wrong. If you don't create the loop properly doesn't the whole thing just fall apart?
>
> Chris
> [...]
>
> Is this actually true though, especially the bit about it being 'hard to tell' if it is wrong. If you don't create the loop properly doesn't the whole thing just fall apart?
>
> Chris
In reply to Chris Craggs: Years ago, in the Alps, I saw someone tie in supposedly with a bowline (not my partner). As soon as he weighted the rope the knot came completely undone and he took a 60ft unroped fall down a crevasse, luckily only resulting in bruises (and us having to rescue him)
I didnt see the knot he tied close up, but the fact that it was a bit dark and everyone was tired must have contributed to his mistake.
Ever since, I've rarely used the bowline. It seems to me that the fig 8 is that bit safer because its symmetry makes it almost impossible to tie in a way which could fail.
In reply to richtea21:
"I didnt see the knot he tied close up, but the fact that it was a bit dark and everyone was tired must have contributed to his mistake".
I would be much more certain of tying a bowline in the dark than a figure of eight.
"I didnt see the knot he tied close up, but the fact that it was a bit dark and everyone was tired must have contributed to his mistake".
I would be much more certain of tying a bowline in the dark than a figure of eight.
In reply to Ava Adore:
late to the feast i know...
.....it take 5 mins to learn and has dozens of applications.
a) why wouldnt you learn?
b) howd you get this far without picking it up?
its not like learning kendo or the applications of heideggers theorum.
late to the feast i know...
.....it take 5 mins to learn and has dozens of applications.
a) why wouldnt you learn?
b) howd you get this far without picking it up?
its not like learning kendo or the applications of heideggers theorum.
In reply to ice.solo:
Pity her,
she is blonde
and wears glasses
and lives in the midlands
and is a thespian.
Pity her,
she is blonde
and wears glasses
and lives in the midlands
and is a thespian.
In reply to Ava Adore:
Sack hauling, scrambling confidence line, tying a extra rope on the back of your harness. Admitedly I don't do it often but it has been quick and handy over the years. Have seen several parties get in to trouble when they needed to tie on sharpish in bad weather and they couldn't tie one.
Sack hauling, scrambling confidence line, tying a extra rope on the back of your harness. Admitedly I don't do it often but it has been quick and handy over the years. Have seen several parties get in to trouble when they needed to tie on sharpish in bad weather and they couldn't tie one.
In reply to dave wearing:
I aint wasting time tying a fig 8 not anytime. Feck, have been tied on and halfway up a route while someone has been faffing about getting their harnesss sorted out, never mind tying a fig 8.
I aint wasting time tying a fig 8 not anytime. Feck, have been tied on and halfway up a route while someone has been faffing about getting their harnesss sorted out, never mind tying a fig 8.
In reply to sutty:
Right on, I go to the crag or even the wall to climb, not fart around with rethreaded figure of eights, if I wanted to do that I could do it at home. If you know your knots you can choose the best knot for the job, I went climbing once with someone who used it for just about everything, to set up the ab rope it was a Fo8 at the end of the rope for the first stake, then a Fo8 some way further along to go over the second stake, a Fo8 between the two to equalise (which is a pain with a Fo8) then a Fo8 in the loose end coming from the second stake back to the equalising Fo8, with a screw-gate to join the two, and then finally chuck what was left off the cliff to ab down! If he had been confident in tying and using an alpine butterfly we could have done twice as many routes.
Right on, I go to the crag or even the wall to climb, not fart around with rethreaded figure of eights, if I wanted to do that I could do it at home. If you know your knots you can choose the best knot for the job, I went climbing once with someone who used it for just about everything, to set up the ab rope it was a Fo8 at the end of the rope for the first stake, then a Fo8 some way further along to go over the second stake, a Fo8 between the two to equalise (which is a pain with a Fo8) then a Fo8 in the loose end coming from the second stake back to the equalising Fo8, with a screw-gate to join the two, and then finally chuck what was left off the cliff to ab down! If he had been confident in tying and using an alpine butterfly we could have done twice as many routes.
In reply to sutty:
so is leo houlding but he can probably tie one
> (In reply to ice.solo)
>
> Pity her,
> she is blonde
> and wears glasses
> and lives in the midlands
> and is a thespian.
>
>
>
> Pity her,
> she is blonde
> and wears glasses
> and lives in the midlands
> and is a thespian.
>
>
so is leo houlding but he can probably tie one
In reply to Ava Adore:
Very easy to tie off diffent lengths particularly when adusting the belay at the top of Southern Sandstone so that the length is exactly right.
Very easy to tie off diffent lengths particularly when adusting the belay at the top of Southern Sandstone so that the length is exactly right.
In reply to Ava Adore:
Why?
Because if you don't we'll have endless C*cktalk threads as to why you should! For the love of Dog just learn it... please!!
Why?
Because if you don't we'll have endless C*cktalk threads as to why you should! For the love of Dog just learn it... please!!
In reply to brt:
Ahh the old C*cktalk Thread - I always use when you need to escape the system when hanging upside down with the rope wrapped round your ankle.
> (In reply to Ava Adore)
>
> Why?
>
> Because if you don't we'll have endless C*cktalk threads as to why you should! For the love of Dog just learn it... please!!
>
> Why?
>
> Because if you don't we'll have endless C*cktalk threads as to why you should! For the love of Dog just learn it... please!!
Ahh the old C*cktalk Thread - I always use when you need to escape the system when hanging upside down with the rope wrapped round your ankle.
In reply to brt:
Yes, its so easy when you think of a rabbit, a rabbit hole, a tree, a man with a gun (or your Dog) and the rabbit hole again
> (In reply to Ava Adore)
>
> Why?
>
> For the love of Dog just learn it... please!!
>
> Why?
>
> For the love of Dog just learn it... please!!
Yes, its so easy when you think of a rabbit, a rabbit hole, a tree, a man with a gun (or your Dog) and the rabbit hole again
In reply to Ava Adore: Just a few days ago I was soloing on grit and decided I needed to lead the route.I had a rope thrown up and I tied a bowline round my waist. Tying it one handed is well worth practicing.More fun than most bouldering,in fact.
Mitch
Mitch
In reply to John Ww:
I climb, and therefore I have learned what I need in a practical situatin- not just for some sort of academic satisfaction. Peh.
, "alternative technique"
got plenty, ta and "other possible scenarios"
Again, got them covered.
Interestingly, you have savagely editied my post in an attempt tomake your own crticism more creditable. It didn't work, pet.
sx
> (In reply to Sarah G)
> [...]
>
>
> I'm guessing the words "academic interest"
> [...]
>
>
> I'm guessing the words "academic interest"
I climb, and therefore I have learned what I need in a practical situatin- not just for some sort of academic satisfaction. Peh.
, "alternative technique"
got plenty, ta and "other possible scenarios"
Again, got them covered.
Interestingly, you have savagely editied my post in an attempt tomake your own crticism more creditable. It didn't work, pet.
sx
In reply to MJ:
Now now, don't be silly. I have NOT questioned anyone, but simply given my own opinion. If it differs from yours, tough shit.
Please also refer to the post above- I have never felt the need to use a bowline, the alternative I use are plenty and more than adequate.
sx
> (In reply to Sarah G)
>
> How can you question someones knot tying and general climbing competence when you can't even be bothered to learn a basic knot?
> If you're that concerned about safety, why not learn how to tie the bowline. You don't have to use it, but at least You'll know if someone elses is tied correctly.
>
> How can you question someones knot tying and general climbing competence when you can't even be bothered to learn a basic knot?
> If you're that concerned about safety, why not learn how to tie the bowline. You don't have to use it, but at least You'll know if someone elses is tied correctly.
Now now, don't be silly. I have NOT questioned anyone, but simply given my own opinion. If it differs from yours, tough shit.
Please also refer to the post above- I have never felt the need to use a bowline, the alternative I use are plenty and more than adequate.
sx
In reply to Ava Adore:
can't be bothered reading all the above but to the OP, the reasons I recently learnt to tie a bowline are:
1. one handed tie in for rescue scenarios
2. slinging big blocks for abseils and belays
overall a worthwhile knot to know.
good luck
can't be bothered reading all the above but to the OP, the reasons I recently learnt to tie a bowline are:
1. one handed tie in for rescue scenarios
2. slinging big blocks for abseils and belays
overall a worthwhile knot to know.
good luck
In reply to ghisino:
Rather, what's the benefit : it is that this "tail-on-outside" bowline isn't vulnerable to **ring-loading** failure, which the common bolwine is!
(Who knows how "Dutch navy" got associated with it --seems to be another myth.)
*kN*
> (In reply to EddInaBox)
> [...]
>
> and what's the problem with the dutch marine vs "regular" bowline?
> [...]
>
> and what's the problem with the dutch marine vs "regular" bowline?
Rather, what's the benefit : it is that this "tail-on-outside" bowline isn't vulnerable to **ring-loading** failure, which the common bolwine is!
(Who knows how "Dutch navy" got associated with it --seems to be another myth.)
*kN*
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...