UKC

Pete Whittaker and Tom Randall have climbed two new routes at a 'new' crag - Rainroach Rock in Staffordshire.

The routes, Captain Cutloose (E7 6c) and Pieces of Eight (E8 7a) took a fair bit of cleaning, but after the hard work produced two good lines.

Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=60239

In reply to UKC News:
From the Blog:
"The lower moves on the arete are very bouldery, fortunately it was very much my style of climbing with lots of gypsy beta involved and some hard heel hooking"

But, what is gypsy beta?
James

In reply to James Oswald:

oh god

In reply to UKC News: More importantly, how many grades do you knock off for the use of a "bedodendron"??

In reply to UKC News: Hardly a new crag. There are lots of big dirty unclimbed roof lines in that general area

In reply to UKC News:

reassuring that suraptitious 'knees downs' happen even at this grade

In reply to James Oswald: But, what is gypsy beta?

Stealing it from peoples back gardens

In reply to Offwidth: Hence the 'new'.

In reply to UKC News:
A question:
>>As promised, the crag was totally obscured by vegetation, so we got work with a load of bow-saws and cleared a substantial area of land.<<

Is this any more acceptable than
- a geologist turning up a the same crag chipping holds off
-cutting down trees at an established crag like Tremadoc
or fit with
-the environmental/corporate responsibility of sponsors like Patagonia, Wild Country and Rab.

Discuss.

I stake may colours to the mast here...yes gardening has gone on for years and many of our crags are the result of it but this is 2011. I find this totally self indulgent, ignorant and wholly unconnected with any sport I associate with.
I don't give a toss whether Mr W or Mr R are on the cutting edge or MOTR climbers it is a shameful act.

In reply to simondgee:
They should be thanked for cutting down some rhododendron.

In reply to simondgee: are you the new ben darvill?

In reply to simondgee:

When you climb down from your Ivory Tower, you can borrow my Stihl.


But more to the point, did they have the landowners/tenants permission.

AS long they are not covered by a TPO, Conservation Area, SSSI etc landowners/tenants can remove 5m3 of timber per calendar quarter (and sell a proportion of that) from the owned/leased land.


And whatever happened to that Darvill one trick pony?

In reply to simondgee: They didn't chop down a Rainforest......

In reply to @ndyM@rsh@ll:

Whats 'new' about it, its overlooked at best.

In reply to simondgee:

Please calm down... Rhododendron is a non-native, invasive, monoculture generating plant. The underside of the crag was in reasonable nick when I was last there, the exits were totally clogged.

In reply to ChrisJD:

Interesting but irrelevant twaddle. Why would Patagonia sponsor self indulgent loutishness. If they were interested in land management (as you suggest) they would go and cut the stuff down in a controlled and measured way according to some plan. Not cos it obscured the start of a an unclimbed piece of rock. You asked the question 'did they have the landowners permission?'
I was once once at Bowden Doors a looong time ago when a party from a university turned up and started chipping bits of fell sandstone off the crag. They had no less right than i did to be there climbing, of course they responded very positively when the impact of their action was pointed out. I'm pretty sure they didn't go and whine about it on a geo forum ...they took onboard the context and adapted. Rumbling into a crag and claiming it back from nature ain't exactly consistent with acting in context. If the crag had been behind FE trees in a national asset about to be sold off to private owner would it have been ok to do the same before and after the sale, if the 'thinning' had been of ancient woodland would it have been ok?

In reply to simondgee:

I find it amazing that someone is 'whining on a forum' about removing Rhododendrons - probably the most unwelcome invader in the Peak.

Do you levitate to the crag on a floating carpet?

In reply to oliverg:
The Hangman (maurice Ogden)

In reply to simondgee:

As are your comments I'm afraid, as pointed out it was Rhododendron that was cleared.

In reply to Southern Man: Wither it is in England or anywhere else in the UK and even if it is the dreaded Rhododendron you should still get landowners permission to cut it back. Part of the Land Reform Act is about behaving responsibly in the countryside and chopping back unwanted shrubbery away form a climb without landowners permission is still not behaving responsibly.

In reply to simondgee: go suck one.
the churnet is riddled with the weeds.
climbers should not worry about clearing back the weeds to expose the rock.
its that attitude that has left alot of crags unclimbable.
i cleared the whole top of virgin wall a couple of years ago of all the rhods

In reply to simondgee:

On the offchance that you're not taking the piss I'll indulge you for a moment.

I've carefully read your posts and still can't fathom out precisely why you are objecting to them clearing some brush from the bottom of the crag. I take you do understand that rhododendrons will grow back if they're allowed to while the rock at Bowden Doors won't.

Could you explain please?

In reply to simondgee:

you seem to be the only one whining

In reply to simondgee:

I think the bigger issue is that Gary Gibson knew of unclimbed rock and hasn't bolted it, or even claimed a route on it! Something is not right here.

In reply to Offwidth: Exactly, hence the ' on either side of the word new.

In reply to snoop6060:

Gary has put up a lot of brilliant trad in his day.

In reply to UKC News:

On a brighter note, the video was shit...

In reply to The Green Giant:

Aye and also why so many chalk marks for intermediate holds that he was padding on. I would get shot for marking problems/routes at my grade that heavily.

In reply to UKC News:
Ok back from a nice chardonnet. thank you for indulging with the responses. I have no interest in estoteric bits of the landscape further south than kendal...so i judge a book by its cover albeit erroneously but on this basis...and the thin end of the wedge....
Scenario 1
Drytoooling if you dont do it you aint cool...propogated by reporting and misinterpreted without any other reference point, 2 chumps go and divvy about in millstone and are crucified for their actions as if they have just carried out a crime on humanity...its millstone and its scratches and nobody other than climbers gives a toss. 2 kids that got it wrong driven by the standards they reference like UKC winter reports. How could they get wrong? because they lacked depth and experience to make a better judgement of what the 'rules' are. Hybrids of 'sport', indoor, and dumbing down.
(btw I cant think of any report that suggests drytooling on crags is remotely acceptable.) They interpreted the landscape in front them and got it (subjectively wrong....I say subjectively as 99% of the population would equate ice axes, crampons and snow with climbing) and thats what they did
Scenario 2
lead story with >>the crag was totally obscured by vegetation, so we got to work with a load of bow-saws and cleared a substantial area of land<< this is glorication of the crag gardening to the extent of supporting bowsawing substantial areas of land...not weeds, not rhododendrons, not loose shite, it doesnt say that...there are thousands of people who have learned to climb indoors, they don't have the traditional route, they burn for the celebrity, they headpoint E3 when they lead VS,... where do does the concept of headpointing come from?...the same place as bow sawing substantial areas of land...peers. I can think of at least half a dozen crags withhin 20 minutes of where I live where substantial real estate would be yielded with a bow saw and spade. If you are desperate I will put the grid refs on Ebay.
The report says (without threads) if you find rock its ok to pick up the bow saw and get at it. What on earth is the relevance of bow saws other than glorifiaction? We have a thread on forests with 175 reasons to be passionate about our open spaces and rights in the countryside and publish articles about 'bowsawing substantial areas of land'. Uh? Might be nice routes, might acceptable gardening but not sustainable reporting.
I love UKC

In reply to pigeonjim:

This thread is turning into an enviro-tastic jizz fest. I bet they drove there too. The wankers.

In reply to simondgee:

You seem to think only wads conduct crag clear ups. Ever been to the Tremadog festival? Or the Stoney clear up? This isn't a recent phenomenon.


Er, yes it does. It says rhododendrons.


If it has a reputation for strokers, congratulations for doing your bit. Go back to your Daily Mail.

In reply to simondgee: how many chardonnets did you have?

In reply to UKC News:

Oh I completely forgot, I fully approve of TR and PR's actions, I would have done the same. Well done!

In reply to simondgee:

i'm running for cover, this could get messy.

In reply to tom290483: i'm off too, this is daft, man's taking the piss lol

In reply to simondgee:

so basically your not really interested in climbing as a whole only the bits you climb on?hmmmmm that just shows what your ethics are like

In reply to jonny2vests:
???top tip stick a tesco's bag in your the top pocket of your sack, it doesn't take a festival and chumming up to do something useful
Er no it doesn't the destination is not the journey...dense woodland
I cant read so well anymore so just look at the pictures and crayon the the white bits.

In reply to beastofackworth:

I don't follow your logic ...I am not interested in climbing at RainRoach... I am interested in the reporting of the using of 'bowsaws to clear substantial areas of land'. We both seem to have similar mileage (around 8000 routes) and history (22 years) and have probably done our bits negotiating access and making stuff happen. What are my ethics like?

In reply to simondgee: If your not interested in rainroach it shouldn't matter what happens there then should it?

In reply to beastofackworth:
>>?hmmmmm that just shows what your ethics are like<<
I suspect you have had a a wee dram too you seem to have foreshortened the comment

'If your not interested in rainroach it shouldn't matter what happens there then should it?'

I believe the missing word is 'climbing'
and the missing the point is ...if I wasn't interested in climbing there then if it was bolted or chipped would I have been bothered or 'it shouldn't matter what happens there then should it?'

In reply to simondgee: you stated you weren't interested in rainroach,to me that's a totally encompassing statement that includes,the rock,climbing,the foliage etc and anything else south of Kendal

In reply to simondgee:
Jesus - you should see Turning Stone Edge.
You'd weep for all your fallen rhododendron friends. Meanwhile, everyone else can enjoy it.

In reply to The Green Giant: Not it wasn't, it was just supposed to give you a taste of what went on......and did just that.

In reply to UKC News:

Back to the climbing. This looks a nice route. What's the top-out like? Is the boulder start the only 'hard' climbing or is there another section to follow?

In reply to snoop6060:

You cheeky ignoranmous, the area is littered with GG trad routes up to some quite hard grades.

In reply to @ndy M@rshAll

Thats what I asked: what's 'new' about it, it's been in guidebooks with listed climbs for decades. Ravensnest Tor is 'new' ie know by some but not listed for any climbs until recently.

In reply to jonny2vests:

You missed the rest of my quote out tho, I said bolted it or even claimed a route on it. Suggesting, as you say, he is also know to claim trad routes.

It was a joke, I am well aware that he has claimed many trad routes all over the country, including the 15 or so variations on Dina's Mot. (To be fair, I don't actually know if that is true, I seem to recall it being one of them stories people like to trot out when ever his name is mentioned.)

In reply to Offwidth: In that case i'll shut up and look embarrassed.

In reply to jonny2vests:

hilarious

In reply to Offwidth:

Despite that it doesn't appear so see much/any action?

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crag.php?id=1606

Chris

In reply to simondgee: What exactly is your objection? Is it that they chopped down some Rhododendrons, that they forget to mention the type of vegetation in the subsequent write-up, or that they (presumably) didn't seek landowner permision?
If it's this first point then get a grip, Rhody's are the worst invasive plant species on UK crags. To any right thinking individual destruction of them is a small act of conservation.
If it's the lack of species specific mention, then you haven't read the piece properly as it clearly mentions that the crag was shrouded in Rhododendrons. Plus you can see them in the pictures/video.
If it's the lack of landowner persmission. I’d say it was the sensible approach. Seeking permission may well have led to refusal to clear and refusal of access at all. Crag access in the UK has many instances where we climb at places only because the landowner hasn’t noticed. Alerting the landowner to your presence (in situations such as this, where they would almost certainly not otherwise notice) places at least a perception of liability on the owner, something which they probably don’t welcome and may lead them to deny access.

In reply to Chris Craggs: You can say that about unpouplar routes at Stanage let alone the Churnett. Most people don't use your databases.

In reply to UKC News:

Can't tell much from that clip but was it really "Filmed by Alex Ekin's"?

In reply to Offwidth:

I think you will find that very few routes on Stanage never get done:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crag.php?id=99

There are only 4 of 200 there, including some pretty esoteric stuff.
Chris


PS The database has nothing to do with me.
PPS. Two of the four are mine ;=)

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Has every route in the guidebook been added, or just those that people have logged?

In reply to Toreador:

Well spotted and good question that man. There are four that no-one has done so possible the former. Though more likely the latter!


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

There are a good number of people who go out of their way to climb Stanage obscurities yet some routes are unticked and many have one or two logbook ticks.

I was, of course, refering to the fact you work for the organisation that maintains the database. there are also a good few routes still not included.

In the Churnett the best low grade crag is Garston Rock. The highest tick there is 11 there are 7 routes with 19 ticks in total for the other 6. The guidebooks list 20 routes.

PS I've climbed one of the 4 at stanage End but could only find 3?

In reply to UKC News:

Hmm, maybe it's my age, but I find it hard to get excited about major new routes that look to my eyes like boulder problems in old money. And as for the ad featuring James Pearson on 'return of the jedi that appeared in Climb...based on the 'sensational' looking line this route takes I'm guessing there will be many folk rushing to repeat this 'last great problem' or maybe not!

Come on get a grip, can we turn the hype machine down a little it's making me queasy.

In reply to UKC News: I think it's mint what these guys are doing to be honest. It's probably the closest thing you can get to having a single pitch adventure. The have, after all, re-discovered and re-vamped an outdated crag which had inevitably been left behind with the times. The fact the crag has been developed and since forgotten is almost exclusively as a result of the encroaching rhododendrons... They've become worse and worse as the years have ticked by, just take a look at the pics in some of the older guidebooks, it is an invasion for sure. It seems people's attitudes have changed - landowners fear litigation and climbers fear removal of vegetation. It's a crazy world.

As for the poster who said it 'looks like bouldering', bear in mind Pete had soloed Ray's Roof shortly before this route and was umm-ing and arr-ing as to whether it should actally be V4 or V5. He wouldn't give a route E8 that was actually a boulder problem...far from it!

In reply to andi turner:

I think the fact that Pete deems Ray's roof V4/V5 is a testament to his prowess in grading! Of course, grading is subjective and fair enough Pete maybe had an E8 experience on his new route. That one can jump off the crux would to me say it's a bit of a boulder problem.

In reply to andi turner:

Lets hope people have a look at a few of the other big overhangs around there and the place gets cleaned up. I saw chalk on two unlisted lines when I walked the crag for the 2009 Roaches reprint. There is unique classic adventure to be had in the Lower Churnett from HS to as hard as you like.

In reply to Craig Smith:
The video is a little misleading. It only shows the initial arete.
Here is a pic of the rest - http://tinyurl.com/5tqkqka

In reply to Craig Smith: does that still look like a boulder problem?????

In reply to mark s:

Just playing devils advocate here but for it to be E8 the top must be very hard too.

E

In reply to mark s:

A really hard highball boulder problem start followed by what looks like easier climbing above?

In reply to Pylon King: again as andi said,pete knows exactly what he is doing with grades.if its e8 according to pete its e8

In reply to UKC News: that wasnt a route it was a boulder problem. he jumped off like 3 times. should never get an e grade

In reply to Pylon King:

Or in another words, highball english 7a crux, followed by E8 6c?? - at a guess...
Looks utterly amazing, and one of the hardest and most inspiring routes in staffordshire.

In reply to UKC News:

It looks about E5/6. Taking into account the technical (boulder problem start) and then the E1 looking finish.

Regardless of the grade. It looks like a nice route. A good line, doesn't really matter what grade it is. My original point was that the hype machine is turned up far too high at the moment.

In reply to Craig Smith:



That's completely ridiculous. How on earth can you possibly judge what the grade is? Sorry but I think I'm going to choose to trust the grade of the guy who's actually climbed it.

In reply to Craig Smith:

Best get on it then Craig. Show this young whipper snapper the error of his ways.

In reply to Ed Brighteldman:

Not that ridiculous - Craig might 'just' have enough experience to take a stab at what the grade might look like.

In reply to ChrisJD:

He could be Dave Mcleod for all that's worth. It's ridiculous to try and judge the grade of a climb from a video and a photo and it's an insult to the FA to even try.

In reply to Ed Brighteldman:

We'll have to disagree. Craig clearly didn't think it ridiculous, else he wouldn't have made the comment (old school banter aside).

<He may well be mistaken, and I'm sure Craig knows he could be wrong.>

In reply to Ed Brighteldman:

30 years of climbing lots of on sight, ground up, often in places where no one else has ever climbed and there aren't any guidebooks.

Granted my grade is conjecture, but unless the top is hard English 6c or the pro he has in the break is rubbish, how can a boulder problem with what looks like a trivial exit get E8? Please explain your reasoning in logical terms an old git can understand?

In reply to Craig Smith:


I'm not doubting your credentials


That's what I've got an issue with. There are so many other factors in determining an E-grade (for example if there was a heinous landing, if every move to the break was tech 7a, the gear was extremely hard to place etc.) that a 'conjecture' based purely on what it looks like is fairly worthless.

I'm not saying one way or the other whether it 'looks' e5 or e8. It seems a little pointless speculating when we have someone who has actually climbed the route telling us what the grade is and absolutely no reason to distrust or doubt him.

In reply to Ed Brighteldman:

Thanks for filling me in on how the E grading system works ; )

One should not trust the grade any first ascensionist gives a route! Especially, in this day and age.
Firstly, the grade is the first ascensionist subjective view, like my conjecture of the grade. Of course, the first ascensionist thinks he/she knows the grade, but history teaches us that this is not sometimes the case. Secondly, you forget to mention the hype factor that is often added to big things up to keep sponsers happy, show that you are running with the top boys n girls, blah, blah, blah.

As for whether my conjecture is worthless. Well, it's probably as worthless as climbing bits of rock!

Cheers,

C

In reply to Craig Smith:


Sorry I didn't mean that to come across as condescending!


I know, but the FA has a lot more information to draw on when coming to his opinion on the grade making it a lot more authoritative.

I just don't think someone saying 'hmmph... looks e5 to me' from in front of a computer screen can add much value to any sort of debate. I guess we just disagree on that.

In reply to Craig Smith:

I can actually see where you're coming from, and to a certain extent you can normally get a rough idea of a routes grade by looking at it, but Pete is one of the few people I know who is probably considerably stronger than he realises. He is, undoubtedly, one of the best climbers in the UK.

The picture does make the route 'look' less than E8, but I'd take his word for it. Had it been anyone with less credentials, I'd be probably airing on your side! His 'bedodendron' was probably key to his success. If you compare to routes like 'My Piano' (also E8) this route also packs about as much crux climbing in in about the same amount of distance. The routes in the Churnet tend to be a bit like this anyway, The Pride, Cornelius and Thumbelina all give experiences far out of proportion to their size.

Still, I can see your point.

In reply to Craig Smith:

I'll hold your ropes! Or spot you!

Freakin freezing here - 20 C this morning!!!!!!

In reply to andi turner:

To be honest (not me) I'd like to see Tom and Pete revert to old money.

The pair of them are amongst the most exciting young climbers we have the UK.

They are always up to mischief.

They'd really put a spanner in the works if the went back to XS and HXS for their new routes.

What you say Wide Boyz of the Peaks?

In reply to andi turner: think its a waste of time to keep explaing to him pete and tom know what e8 is.

In reply to ????

Ive never heard of an E8 you can jump off - unless its technical grade is 7a or 7b, and/or the top is 6b with deck out potential, which i guess it could well be?

Maybe i'll have a look at it next time i'm up there ( thats never!)

In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC:

Howdee Mick - us revert to old school grades? Whatever next.... high top climbing shoes??! I'd rather give people something to think about really and if it's the wrong grade, it's the wrong grade. Life goes on. I think it's a shame James P didn't grade his recent escapade on grit, because of grading issues - a bit of slagging of never hurt anyone (too) much

In reply to others:

You always get criticised for overgrading but people never mention the undergrades - it's a one way flow. When Andi T graded Thumbalina E7, he got a load of slack for that, but at least he actually suggested something. He also suggested a grade which I think is pretty much in line with general softness in the Churnet, a brave move, but a sensible one as I also try and grade my routes in line with the area, rather than my own local stomping ground.

Another thing to factor in, is that for me (Pete may not agree) I grade routes with the hope that some of my mates might try those routes in good style. Thus I don't go for sandbagging dangerous routes, just for being cool for sandbagging - more with the idea of what I'd say to a mate if I were being genuinely honest about my appraisal of a route. Pete's E8 could be E7, but to me it's in line with other E8s like Angel Share, Ultimate Sculpture, Marbellous, Superbloc, Power of the Dark Side and That's My Lot. Yes, some of those are now highballs and the such - I guess it's just personal style of what you like doing and how you like grading! Mostly it's just about going and having some fun and pushing yourself.

I know people will be really interested in debating all this stuff as it's all good pub talk, but to ask either Pete or I to give some huge answer or detailed breakdown, it's just not going to happen as we just want to go climbing and not focus on all the grade debate - too depressing!! As for hyping a route grade for publicity - well, E8 and E7 aren't exactly cutting edge now are they? If both our routes come down to E7 and E6 (or both E5s....) then, that's cool - at least someone's been excited and motivated enough to go and repeat them.

In reply to Craig Smith: If you apply your logic, Master's Edge should be E5 6b. Boulder problem V4/5 start into a safe run-out. Basically, I don't think logic can be applied in every case, so sometimes, just go with some gut feeling and hope that no one on UKC notices!!

In reply to Tom Randall - Lattice Training: me and turner were on about these idiots with dave s yesterday.how the hell people can judge a grade from a short video.pete is also one of the best route climbers in the country and makes stuff look easy.let them go and try it,sure the opinions will change.
Even if pete was out by 1 grade it will still be e77a and churnets hardest route.
Good effort on the routes any way,and nice one chopping down the weeds

In reply to Tom Randall - Lattice Training:

It's a logic of a kind... similar to this harder than that..etc. One thing my guidebook work has shown me is even with experience looking can be grades out.

In reply to Tom Randall - Lattice Training:

Good effort on your new routes lads... keep up the good work

...don't people say that any more on here?

In reply to Simon:

Yeah, all the time.