UKC

Stevie Haston takes a look at modern mixed climbing and dry tooling.

Stevie has been at the forefront of this aspect of climbing for many years and has seen the rules by which it is played in many different countries.

In this article he suggests ways to take the sport forward, not backward.

Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=3471

In reply to UKC Articles:
What is so insignificant about small boulders?
James

In reply to UKC Articles:

nice article....oh and how are those sweet looking axes?

btw - not sure i would call Millstone an easy target....any fule should know axes aren't welcome there.

In reply to UKC Articles: Great article Stevie. Any recommendations on continental dry tooling crags for relative beginners?

In reply to UKC Articles:
Good piece.
That axe looks identical to the ClimbBuBu Flamingo. I seem to recall hearing that Grivel have bought into them so could be finding it's way into the main range by the looks of it.
Saw a gnarley old dude climbing on a pair of them last year in Cogne, he said they were awesome (well in Italian) but they were a mission to get hold of because the only stockists are or were around Arco.
Fingers crossed they make it over the channel at a manageable price.
The only dry tooling crag I know for certain is White Goods near Ruithin. Any others (not including sport chalk down at Saltdean)

In reply to James Oswald:

You may have answered your own question.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:
So was Stevie merely referring to the size of the boulders or displaying his feeling that he feels bouldering is pointless?
James

In reply to James Oswald:

Why not ask him? I'm sure he'll tell you!

Mick

In reply to UKC Articles:

This article is not bad, but does it really bring anything new to the debate?

And someone needs to tell Stevie where to use commas and full-stops.

In reply to garethMottram: There is Newtyle quarry as well.

In reply to UKC Articles:

i like stevie. and im actually kinda scared of stevie, in a good way. more than anything i have a lot to learn from stevie.

but i gotta say - there wasnt much about actual mixed climbing in that article.

the last line about taking it to the big hills has all sorts of wonderful applications.
can we get a bit more on that?

In reply to UKC Articles:

I find these Haston articles to be nothing more than product placement for Grivel.

In reply to jackcarr:


Whatever gave you that idea ? The axe or the t-shirt ? : )

In reply to andy moles:
I think it does bring something new to the debate. Stevie has been at the cutting edge of mixed climbing and therefore what he says carries some weight. Steve Ashworth made an eloquent case for mixed climbing on virtually any mountain crag: http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=3335 and Stevie is suggesting we discuss this further, and I'm all for that. The elite of mixed climbing have been notable by their absence in the debate. Its good to know where they stand on the issue. Burying our heads in the sand won't make the problem go away.

I'll let you tell him about his pronunciation!

In reply to UKC Articles:

Sorry but correct me if I'm wrong here, Steve lives and climbs in France and never winter climbs in Scotland? I seem to remember him saying that he didn't like the place.

Why then does he use "we" when he discusses winter climbing in the UK?

If UKC want to publish an article about winter climbing in the UK they may get something more informed if they asked one the climbers who is currently active in the UK to write an article.

In reply to ice.solo: Agreed. I though the last couple of lines were brilliant and enormously inspiring for those that way inclined.

In reply to Dave Ferguson:

I haven't met Stevie so I haven't got the fear! But it's more the editors' problem anyway - I'm sure UKC would like their articles to be of the highest editorial standard.

In reply to jackcarr:

I find these Haston articles to be nothing more than product placement for Haston.

In reply to andy moles:

To be honest I've found UKC articles to be regularly littered with spelling, grammar and style errors.

In reply to UKC Articles: A sceptic might think he had to write articles that got traffic past his website and associated pages with sponsors links on them. I'm sure this is not the case though

In reply to andy moles:
"I'm sure UKC would like their articles to be of the highest editorial standard."

Maybe they should proof read them for grammar and spelling then.
James

In reply to James Oswald:

Well yeah, that was my point.

Must do better!

C-

A badly written contribution, badly edited and clearly just an advert for Grivel

In reply to Removed User:

AFAIK, Steve Haston stopped climbing in Scotland because he got fed up with the agro he was getting for climbing what is now accepted and cutting edge.
The type of ascents that MacPherson, Turner, Boswell, et all are regularly doing now under popular acclaim were frowned upon not that long ago.

It's seems is time for him to tie loose ends. After all, time has proven him right.

In reply to Mr Lopez:

Examples?

In reply to jackcarr:

I think you'll find out the majority of articles have a degree of product placement.

I doubt the authors get paid for the articles, so a few photos to satisfy their sponsors is the least they can get and harms no one.

In a sport were pros are few and far between, and most struggle to make a decent living, they have to use every trick up their sleeve to make ends meet.

In reply to UKC Articles: I'd like to hear more on the subject, I thought the article pulled together a lot of the issues that are being discussed increasing amongst climbers.

I found the article interesting and to the point, don't know why people are being so negative. It seems to be a general problem with forums and email communication. People are more friendly when you chat with them at the crag or in the pub.

In reply to Mr Lopez:


If I am reading the article correctly, it seems to me that Stevie is actually suggesting that the guys climbing cutting edge mixed (dry tooling) routes in scotland should instead be climbing on specially set aside crags and at European competitions, rather than damaging quality rock climbs:

"Some of the latest additions to mixed climbing are definitely dry-tooling and are encroaching on quality rock climbing."
2If you are very good and very strong, it might be best to recognise your need for attention and competition and travel to Europe, and do the very amazing and taxing stuff they have over there."

In reply to thegoatstroker:

You need glasses.
Perfectly well written article and not bad grammar at all.
Put your prejudice where it belongs.....

In reply to UKC Articles:

forgetting all the product placement for a minute (i do like those new grivel jedi axes though...) what do people really think about stevie's thoughts on increasing the number of DT venues in the UK?

Newtyle, white goods, masson see a massive amount of use. do people think more venues would get used?

would the bolt fund people help out with equipment for DT routes?

In reply to Ian Jones:
No, the grammar and style of the article was very poor by any standards, and there were a number of spelling mistakes. Perhaps this wouldn't be so bad if it was just another forum post, but this is supposed to be a published article.

In reply to smudge:

Probably because without the intimacy of face-to-face contact, friendly chat and banter doesn't work so well. The internet is suited to expressing views succinctly, without the social nuances of conversation.

In reply to tom290483:

Where would these venues be though? It's not like we have vast swathes of unused rock in the UK.

In reply to Mr Lopez:

Ah OK. Can you remind me what cutting edge routes he put up in Scotland, I don't remember any. Maybe it was a long time ago.

>

No I wouldn't have said that at all.


Right about what? Mixed climbing in Scotland has developed the way it's developed with people going out and climbing harder and harder routes. I'm puzzled by your statement.

In reply to Removed User:

Agreed. I think he is completely out of touch with Scottish winter climbing. In short, he doesn't know what he doesnt know. Is he related to Rumsfeld?

In reply to Only a hill:

"were poor" surely?

Forget the grammar, product placement and whatever. I'm actually interested in Stevie's opinions in the articles.

Why? Because he's been at the forefront of "hard mixed" for years, he's a sporting celebrity (or what passes for one in climbing).

Glad UKC could get the copy. I'm prepared to deal with the prose/punctuation and products to read the article.

Nice one!

In reply to UKC Articles: How much responsibility is on UKC to ensure that dry tooling is done responsibly? Youve had your money from Awesome walls. How much responsibilty is on Awesome walls to ensure people dry tool responsibly, afterall theyve had their money.

Think Wainwright and the Coast to Coast.

In reply to UKC Articles: I'm in Canada at the moment (Did I mention I'm in Canada for the winter and there are crags specificly for dry/mixed climbing. They are very well advertised in the RockFax equivelant guide books.

When I saw the article at Christmas about the lad at Millstone I couldn't think of a venue for people to go dry tooling. Maybe a few articles by UKC that actually tell us 'what and where' we could drytool, or a drive by the BMC to highlight where we can go drytooling would help prevent a recurrance for the Millstone incident

In reply to Wrongfoot:

'hard mixed', but not 'the hardest', I think he should climb some harder routes before making wild judgments like these.

In reply to Olduser123:

Aye????

Can't Franco get to a computer right now?

In reply to liz j:

Which cutting edge routes has Stevie climbed then? First ascents? Pushing the grades in Scotland?

So far I can think of none!

In reply to Coire Bog:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=2721

In reply to Mr Lopez: I didnt see a single Scottish mixed route on there, am I just blind?

Not that I am nit pickingn I think he is a great climber like.

In reply to Mr Lopez:

Yeah I have the utmost respect for Stevie and his climbing acheivements but it seems he hasn't done any cutting edge Scottish stuff. If not fine, I don't care, but it does somewhat undermine his views on a subject if he hasn't walked the walk.

In reply to Coire Bog: Exactly, I don't think that it's a coincidence that he's 'bigging up' Euro M stuff.

In reply to Olduser123:

He is saying the same thing as he was ten years ago and in the intervening period he could have easily come over and done some routes. He hasn't though.

I am totally happy with that but I don't see any Formula 1 drivers slagging off Rally drivers when they haven't done it themselves.

If he is happy to criticise with no track record of Scottish mixed at the top grades then fine, but others will draw conclusions.

In reply to Coire Bog:

So because he hasn't done any FWA of grade VIII+ within Scotland he's got no voice on the subject?

Well, that then disqualifies every single person who has posted here. Have you done any?

The fact that he climbed what could be VIII or IX in 85 doesn't count because that was in Wales i guess.

And that he had to go to Europe to find suitable venues to train makes him a villain. Doesn't it?

Those were the times before Newtyle Quarry and White Goods, which are examples of how times changed, and examples such as those are instrumental to the latest resurgence in hard mixed climbing.
A type of mixed climbing that even now gets peoples throats in their mouths, and are a constant subject of inflamed debate.
There's no single report of a hard climb that doesn't have the customary thread on it being dry-tooling, out of condition, pre-practiced, or whatever.

Can you imagine what this debate would have been like 10 or 20 years ago?

I'm sure he has done some hard routes up in Scotland, just maybe not FWA's, but to say he hasn't done any Winter Climbing in Scotland is probably quite untrue. Do i know what he climbed? Well, no. I think only he will know that.

This thread it seems, is just another example of the UKC sport of Haston bashing TBH. Where else in this forums we require of someone to prove he has done any cutting edge FWA's in Scotland to express an opinion?

In reply to Mr Lopez:

No I am not saying that. Why did you think I was considering I never typed as much?

What I am saying is that if you want to single out Scottish Winter climbing frequently but haven't climbed any cutting edge routes then you should fully expect people to notice that and comment on it.

Maybe he has done some hard routes in Scotland but it appears impossible to actually confirm this.

I don't really care either way but if you write an article on a subject then haven't done hard routes in Scotland you should fully accept the criticism. If that's "Haston bashing" then so be it.

In reply to Mr Lopez: I've read Stevie's articles or articles about him in the mags going back I guess 15 years now, possibly more, and don't remember any Scottish routes being mentioned. Perhaps he was climbing VIIs back in the 80s but this has never been mentioned. So I don't know if he has or hasn't done routes there but they've never made it onto CV style articles about him. Stevie has had strong opinions on Scottish climbing for years but I have always wondered what routes he has done to form those opinions. I've always presumed he was doing a bit of advocacy work for Beelzebub from the safe distance of Chamonix!

In reply to Olduser123:

And you are experienced in those big Euro M routes to form the opinion that Stevie Haston needs to climb harder?

In reply to liz j: It wasn't about how hard he was climbing it was about where he was doing it.

In reply to liz j: It's Stevie Haston who is coming out with the big public statements though. He can say what he likes about how Scottish winter climbers should sack off Scotland and go to the Alps, but no one will listen to him whilst he looks like someone who couldn't quite make it as a proper mixed climber so retreated to the french.

In reply to liz j:


But that is the point. If Rebecca is not qualified to make points about Euro M-style routes due to not having done them at all then the same applies to Stevie.

There is no point in getting so defensive. If he is happy to comment without the experience then fine, I don't care either way but it is a fair point to raise that he hasn't done cutting edge Scottish routes and maybe he is happy with that.

In reply to Coire Bog:
No, Rebecca's (actually Franco's) point was that Stevie needed to climb harder to have an opinion. Nothing was said about location.

Wrongfoot-Why? Because he's been at the forefront of "hard mixed" for years, he's a sporting celebrity (or what passes for one in climbing).

Rebecca/Franco-'hard mixed', but not 'the hardest', I think he should climb some harder routes before making wild judgments like these.

In reply to liz j:

Ok well you get the point. It appears that he hasn't done any cutting edge Scottish routes. You don't see that as an issue, I do. End of.

So what conclusions am I supposed to draw from that article? It's just a rant...

Back to quality articles please UKC, save this drivel for the pub or the depths of the forums.

In reply to spa_bob:

The conclusion is this, and it is not clear cut, but it is happening here in the USA.

Haston says:

"Dry tooling venues should be set up very quickly to take the brunt of the damage, and tempt people away from easy targets like Millstone."

Rant in maybe, but a passionate one and his love of climbing (and perhaps himself) is without question.

He has come to a similar conclusion that many have, on here and elsewhere, that to safeguard some crags we have to define where dry tooling can happen, not on lowland grit crags for sure - that seemed so obvious not so long ago.

On high mountain crags the lines are blurred but it would help all of us - we don't want our rock climbs scarred surely - if there were some dedicated dry tooling venues (there are some already in Wales, Scotland and England) were people can have fun with their tools, even in summer.

The more voices the better I say, whether they be well-known climbers or not so well-known, we are all equal.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC: what is the purpose of using ice climbing tools on summer rock?

In reply to Fawksey:
I've never tried it, but it must surely be to get better at climbing rock with crampons and axes for when you have to do it on winter mixed routes or alpine climbs that have dry sections. (?)

In reply to TonyG: I wonder why you just cant climb winter mixed routes and or alpine climbs with dry sections?

In reply to Mr Lopez:

>This thread it seems, is just another example of the UKC sport of Haston bashing TBH. Where else in this forums we require of someone to prove he has done any cutting edge FWA's in Scotland to express an opinion?

I doubt very much if anybody here has anything but respect for Haston. Haston 'bashing' seems a bizarre accusation to me, especially since 99% of his articles/ posts are designed to be inflammatory.
His opinion is more than welcome (in fact it's a relief to read some outspoken commentary since Norrie got banned).

In reply to Fawksey:


Fun perhaps. Here's some summer dry tooling: http://www.ukclimbing.com/videos/play.php?i=21

In reply to Wee Davie:


I do miss Norrie's banter, is it not about time for an Amnesty?

In reply to Bill Davidson:

Seconded. ("Tight!") We want Norrie...

Mick

In reply to Wee Davie:

It's routine for anyone daring to express an opinion about hard climbing to be shot down in flames if they've not climbed the routes in question themselves. One of those doing the shooting down has been Mr Haston.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC:

Agreed, the trouble is folks get very precious about "their" crags, almost every conceivable outcrop has been climbed on at some point and the argument of established rock venue will always be wheeled out.

I have never dry tooled outdoors and can't really see myself doing so unless a new crag is developed less than an hours drive away. Indoors, it is fun, outdoors in the rain, I can't see it being so.

It may be in the interest of all to sacrifice a few crags to shared use. I'm thinking of sh1tholes like the mighty Dalt Quarry or some of the poorer low grade yorkshire lime sport venues. (Someone will now reply telling me they had their best ever climbing day at Dalt!)

wrt Millstone, it was obviously wrong to climb those routes but in reality this will happen; outraged climbers will make the pilgrimage to millstone to survey the damage, curse, tut and climb the route. Before long much of the damage will be worn away or camoflaged underrubber smears and chalk marks. No big problem so long as it doesn't happen again.

As far as the article goes it looks like bandwagon jumping to me. Stevie's profile is low at the moment, wheel out last years rant and add a bit to remind the climbing public that he is still there.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC:

"The more voices the better I say, whether they be well-known climbers or not so well-known, we are all equal."

Of course the first point is correct but the second is also obviously wrong: we are not all equal. Like almost any issue under the sun, being well informed makes the weight of you view more important and Stevie has the ability to do some of these routes and might be taken more seriously if he did. Equally I'd take Stevie's view any day over some numpty with a new ice axe who goes to the nearest rock to try it out. One of the problems with the 'democracy' of the web is those who shout loud get more than their fair share of coverage.

In reply to Offwidth:

The second is correct also, I just didn't qualify it. As long as people back up their opinions with a solid argument they are all equal especially when it comes to where dry tooling is acceptable as this potentially effects us all.

I've seen dry toolers at bouldering areas - you don't have to be Dave Macleod or Stevie Haston to see how wrong that is - even a numpty like me can work that out.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC:

As a climbing journalist with wide ranging climbing experience, you are a good distance from being a numpty, except when play acting. How do you have a solid argument when you don't know what you are talking about?

We are not all equal, we do all have a right to an opinion though.

In reply to Offwidth:

Elitism in climbing isn't pretty, but it is common. We aren't talking nuclear physics here but simple damage, rock scratched and holds broke, that may occur to the rocks we play on - it is easy to understand, I'd say that most climbers have a clear understanding of this.

So I'd say we are pretty much all equal here. That's why a clear message must be sent to those who want to spoil the aesthetics and structure of the rock we climb on. And why it is a great idea, beyond the gray area of the mountain crags, to have dedicated dry tooling areas.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC:

Shit, I've been Friday afternoon'ed Offwidth'ed.

Best go out and play in the snow.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC:

I'd say climbing is intrinsically elitist and that's no bad thing unless people misuse it. A greater experience of something in climbing does give a more valid opinion. A key problem with ill informed (if well intended) statements is that the devil is often in the detail.

As a lower grade climber I'd also say improving is good even if its not necessary. Interestingly the best climbers I know are very friendly to beginners and lower grade issues, so being elite in climbing doesn't seem to corrupt attitudes in the sense power does.

I can go home now as my MSc students have finally turned up and been briefed. Web site maintenance is on for the rest of the day then a mate's birthday party; not bad but still much less fun than snow... have a good weekend.

In reply to Offwidth:

Some climbers who are quite happy climbing at 'low grades' are also some of the most experienced I know.

High grades doesn't always relate to experience or wisdom, in fact quite the opposite especially where high level bouldering or sport climbing are concerned.

In reply to UKC Articles: There are plenty of people who do not climb that will have an opinion about how we use the countryside/crags.
If they don’t climb should we ignore them? Of course not. I am sure there will be some concerns from other groups, we just have not heard from them yet, the day might come though when a land owner or conservation/wildlife/eco group etc, will want their say on how we use the rock we climb.

In reply to gd303uk:


A superb point which is often overlooked by us rank and file. Thank goodness for the BMC who view the bigger picture.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC:

Shhh, careful Mick. Jack said I shouldn't say sh*t. He said it's swearing.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC:

It's obviously not limited to grade, unless the subject commented on relies on that level of ability.

I'm really perplexed that you're fighting this point that experience and knowledge improves the validity of opinion. Opinions are clearly not equal; rights to have an opinions are though.

Let's step sideways for a moment.. we are all valid to have an opinion on beer but would you trust people who haven't drunk much to judge quality? People who don't drink have a clear right to comment on the health issues of drinking but you wouldn't want them recommending your pint.

In reply to Offwidth:

"Let's step sideways for a moment.. we are all valid to have an opinion on beer"!!!?

on the other hand Stevie's article made sense

In reply to James Oswald: