This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
The BMC Peak Area Meeting on Thursday should be a must for anyone who cares about climbing in the Peak District. On the agenda are proposals that bouldering should be BANNED indefinitely at the Cowper Stone and Apparent North at Stanage. I repeat this is a TOTAL BAN that certain Ornithologists are proposing in an effort to protect the Ring Ouzel. The science upon which they are relying is debatable at best and we need to be on our guard.
Second big item is the likelihood that Pay and Display will become all encompassing in the Peak Park. What do people think? Is it justified? If it is justified, shouldn’t there be an overall plan that encompasses park and ride and improvements in public transport.
Also on the agenda is the ban on climbing at Willersley, chipping at Newstones and Ramshaw and Andy Kirkpatrick is doing a slide show.
Can you afford not to be there?
The Anchor Inn, Tideswell Crossroads, Thursday 27th Sept at 7.15pm.
Second big item is the likelihood that Pay and Display will become all encompassing in the Peak Park. What do people think? Is it justified? If it is justified, shouldn’t there be an overall plan that encompasses park and ride and improvements in public transport.
Also on the agenda is the ban on climbing at Willersley, chipping at Newstones and Ramshaw and Andy Kirkpatrick is doing a slide show.
Can you afford not to be there?
The Anchor Inn, Tideswell Crossroads, Thursday 27th Sept at 7.15pm.
In reply to John Horscroft:
Any chance of getting bouldering banned at the Plantation as well? Poor place could do with a rest.
Any chance of getting bouldering banned at the Plantation as well? Poor place could do with a rest.
In reply to John Cox:
Deliverence will be a E7 route if it carries on like it is! With a dyno to get ontot he thing!
Deliverence will be a E7 route if it carries on like it is! With a dyno to get ontot he thing!
In reply to John Horscroft:
i'm not sure whether banning bouldeing at stanage would be such a bad thing.
people seem oblivious to the fact that there are plenty other quality venues in the peak and yorkshire.
bouldering at stanage is, in my opinion, way over rated.
laterzz
m@
i'm not sure whether banning bouldeing at stanage would be such a bad thing.
people seem oblivious to the fact that there are plenty other quality venues in the peak and yorkshire.
bouldering at stanage is, in my opinion, way over rated.
laterzz
m@
In reply to m@:
So is bouldering in the peak. Get to North Yorkshire!
So is bouldering in the peak. Get to North Yorkshire!
In reply to John Horscroft:
We need to hear more about the proposals.......
Those of us who live nowhere near the peak but still have a vested interest need to have a say too....
We need to know exactly what is being proposed and on what grounds...
Dose the ring ouzel only live at stanage north and the cowper stone??...i think not.....
Why is it that as a community we always seem under attack........what threat are we to ornitholigists thats they need to make such proposals without proper thought and consultation.....???
Fight the bastards at every turn until we can establish the truth....
As for the pay and display....i agree that some sort of payment for parking is to be expected.....
but to pay at one car park....then pay again at the next one is out of order.....
one parking ticket should be suffiecnt to cover all car parks....this system is operated in borrowdale i think.......
We need to hear more about the proposals.......
Those of us who live nowhere near the peak but still have a vested interest need to have a say too....
We need to know exactly what is being proposed and on what grounds...
Dose the ring ouzel only live at stanage north and the cowper stone??...i think not.....
Why is it that as a community we always seem under attack........what threat are we to ornitholigists thats they need to make such proposals without proper thought and consultation.....???
Fight the bastards at every turn until we can establish the truth....
As for the pay and display....i agree that some sort of payment for parking is to be expected.....
but to pay at one car park....then pay again at the next one is out of order.....
one parking ticket should be suffiecnt to cover all car parks....this system is operated in borrowdale i think.......
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
That boulder is getting a real mess - 10 years ago there was just one little worn patch underneath the arete left of Deliverance. It'd be a shame to ban the plantation but it's going to be in a horrendous state before too long.
Wonder how much difference bouldering mats make to the erosion around the boulders - should help somewhat.
About being overrated. I think the plantation is one of the better Peak areas, although yes, there are plenty of other good venues too. Yorkshire is superb too, and certainly there's more of it. It's all relative - if you live in Leeds then Peak bouldering is probably overrated but if you live in Norfolk then it's probably nirvana
That boulder is getting a real mess - 10 years ago there was just one little worn patch underneath the arete left of Deliverance. It'd be a shame to ban the plantation but it's going to be in a horrendous state before too long.
Wonder how much difference bouldering mats make to the erosion around the boulders - should help somewhat.
About being overrated. I think the plantation is one of the better Peak areas, although yes, there are plenty of other good venues too. Yorkshire is superb too, and certainly there's more of it. It's all relative - if you live in Leeds then Peak bouldering is probably overrated but if you live in Norfolk then it's probably nirvana
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
I've only been to the plantation twice.....
The first time i went was around 1994......still lots of grass despite the recent OTE bouldering guide by Al Williams....
the difference 3 years later was unbelievable.......
Perhaps the climbers who use this area need to be a little more responsible and tread more softly.....
I'm pretty sure that the same people week in - week out can be found staring at the face of business.......go somewhere else boys please for a change.....this really needs to be addressed befor the whole place is fuekd up...........
I've only been to the plantation twice.....
The first time i went was around 1994......still lots of grass despite the recent OTE bouldering guide by Al Williams....
the difference 3 years later was unbelievable.......
Perhaps the climbers who use this area need to be a little more responsible and tread more softly.....
I'm pretty sure that the same people week in - week out can be found staring at the face of business.......go somewhere else boys please for a change.....this really needs to be addressed befor the whole place is fuekd up...........
In reply to PaulJ:
"We need to hear more about the proposals.......
Those of us who live nowhere near the peak but still have a vested interest need to have a say too"
Too right PaulJ and a point that I have made to John H before and also made it over on the BMC discussion forum. Things that affect a crag that is so clearly of national importance shouldn't be decided upon in the back room of a pub by the local chieftans. This should be a matter of concern to anyone who climbs at Stanage or indeed in the Peak and surely the BMC can find a mechanism to show that the majority of climbers in the UK are against a ban.
If there is a ban put in place by whoever puts it in place then we should make it clear that we are not going to take a blind bit of notice of it.
"We need to hear more about the proposals.......
Those of us who live nowhere near the peak but still have a vested interest need to have a say too"
Too right PaulJ and a point that I have made to John H before and also made it over on the BMC discussion forum. Things that affect a crag that is so clearly of national importance shouldn't be decided upon in the back room of a pub by the local chieftans. This should be a matter of concern to anyone who climbs at Stanage or indeed in the Peak and surely the BMC can find a mechanism to show that the majority of climbers in the UK are against a ban.
If there is a ban put in place by whoever puts it in place then we should make it clear that we are not going to take a blind bit of notice of it.
i think banning climbing in certain areas for at least part of the year would be agood thing as the birds are being pushed out somewhat. for example with the foot and mouth thing, many birds were nesting on stanage that dont usually , eg perigrine falcons,
we have to respect the planet or we will lose even more species, there has to be some compromise.
we have to respect the planet or we will lose even more species, there has to be some compromise.
In reply to englishh bob:
I think you will find that the alleged nesting Peregrines were not mature enough to be nesting in a productive manner.
There is a problem with your solution, I think that you will find that the Ring thingy ended up around the Cowperstone as a result of FMD and that is why there is the potential for a ban (not partial by complete). So your solution is the thin end of the wedge.
I think you will find that the alleged nesting Peregrines were not mature enough to be nesting in a productive manner.
There is a problem with your solution, I think that you will find that the Ring thingy ended up around the Cowperstone as a result of FMD and that is why there is the potential for a ban (not partial by complete). So your solution is the thin end of the wedge.
In reply to John Horscroft: Ok, Can we have msm working at the meeting for people who can't attend? Lots of people would like to have input but live too far away, don't think pubs like a bar full of teetotallers for a night.
In reply to Horse:
the ring ouzel is a migratory bird. During winter it is smart enough to move to a hot country. So whatever the pros and cons of this particular case are (any more info John?) there is absolutely no justification whatosoever for a winter/spring ban.
And btw you're practically tripping over the little sods in Scotland in the summer, so whatever the Peak situation is, they're hardly threatened on a national basis.
the ring ouzel is a migratory bird. During winter it is smart enough to move to a hot country. So whatever the pros and cons of this particular case are (any more info John?) there is absolutely no justification whatosoever for a winter/spring ban.
And btw you're practically tripping over the little sods in Scotland in the summer, so whatever the Peak situation is, they're hardly threatened on a national basis.
In reply to jenny and a few others:
Henry Folkard one of the Peak Area Access volunteers has produced a comprehensive paper about the Ring Ouzel. If anyone would like a copy, send me an email and I'll forward it as a pdf.
Don't underestimate the ammount of time and effort that the local boys and girls have put in your behalf, after Thursdays meeting, if needs be the arena may well be widened into a national campaign if this is warented.
Pity for those who cannot come, promises to be a good meeting with Andy Cave speaking afterwards.
Henry Folkard one of the Peak Area Access volunteers has produced a comprehensive paper about the Ring Ouzel. If anyone would like a copy, send me an email and I'll forward it as a pdf.
Don't underestimate the ammount of time and effort that the local boys and girls have put in your behalf, after Thursdays meeting, if needs be the arena may well be widened into a national campaign if this is warented.
Pity for those who cannot come, promises to be a good meeting with Andy Cave speaking afterwards.
In reply to Horse:
Horse old bean, we 'chieftans in the back room of a pub' won't be the ones making the decisions you silly sausage. We are reacting to a situation outside our control unfortunately, so all we're trying to do is give people a forum to debate and, if possible, find a solution.
cheers
j
Horse old bean, we 'chieftans in the back room of a pub' won't be the ones making the decisions you silly sausage. We are reacting to a situation outside our control unfortunately, so all we're trying to do is give people a forum to debate and, if possible, find a solution.
cheers
j
In reply to John Horscroft:
No surrender on this one!
After the farcical bans at Hencloud don`t let them feed you the same crap about this bird.
Pay and display? Your choice,if you don`t agree,don`t.
Willersley,let`s get it sorted soon,if not just keep on climbing there!
Chipping,we need to know who it is before we can do anything.
No surrender on this one!
After the farcical bans at Hencloud don`t let them feed you the same crap about this bird.
Pay and display? Your choice,if you don`t agree,don`t.
Willersley,let`s get it sorted soon,if not just keep on climbing there!
Chipping,we need to know who it is before we can do anything.
In reply to John Horscroft:
Just a small note for you john about chipping at NEWSTONES,i have been climbing in that area for many years and it is very soft (surface)rock. When it gets worn the surface just breaks leaving (rather than polishes) the soft sand which hence looks like it has been chipped.The grit is not as old as the neighbouring crags ie ROACHES and HENCLOUD(350 million years old). I know what problems are effected and it has just got worn over the years.
It boils down to wire brushing on these (N/S & RAM)should be stopped!
Just a small note for you john about chipping at NEWSTONES,i have been climbing in that area for many years and it is very soft (surface)rock. When it gets worn the surface just breaks leaving (rather than polishes) the soft sand which hence looks like it has been chipped.The grit is not as old as the neighbouring crags ie ROACHES and HENCLOUD(350 million years old). I know what problems are effected and it has just got worn over the years.
It boils down to wire brushing on these (N/S & RAM)should be stopped!
In reply to Jenny, Andy Flint and a few others, the Ring Ouzel is something of a cause celebre. The ornithologists are very protective of the little fellas, hence their tendency to over-react. As Chauvi points out however, Henry Folkard has looked at the science and come up with some interesting stuff. The jury is out on what it is that disturbs the R O. It may even be the sheep! It would be nice if we could organise a site meeting with the birdy folk, but they seem a bit shy, like the R O.
While I sympathise with those who think the plantation and other areas are being bouldered to death, allowing a ban would be the proverbial thin end of the damn wedge. Over-use is something we climbers need to deal with.
All the opinions on this thread will be given an airing on thurs. Thanks for your contributions.
While I sympathise with those who think the plantation and other areas are being bouldered to death, allowing a ban would be the proverbial thin end of the damn wedge. Over-use is something we climbers need to deal with.
All the opinions on this thread will be given an airing on thurs. Thanks for your contributions.
In reply to John Horscroft:
John
Not trying to wind you up but make a serious point that clearly this matter is, in the climbing context, of wider importance than just the concerns of the locals. Hopefully people can use this forum to express their view and you might be able to keep it and use it in some way to show the strength of feeling amongst a broader church of climbers than might be able to make it to The Anchor.
John
Not trying to wind you up but make a serious point that clearly this matter is, in the climbing context, of wider importance than just the concerns of the locals. Hopefully people can use this forum to express their view and you might be able to keep it and use it in some way to show the strength of feeling amongst a broader church of climbers than might be able to make it to The Anchor.
In reply to justin c:
I agree with you there Justin - I was up there the other day with a mate who was a Buxton resident for many years so this was his local crag. I don't think there's been any chipping, but as you say, too much brushing is probably the culprit.
My mate pointed out a foothold that a few years back didn't even really exist - it was just a gravelly lump, but due to the soft rock had just worn into a hold over the years.
I agree with you there Justin - I was up there the other day with a mate who was a Buxton resident for many years so this was his local crag. I don't think there's been any chipping, but as you say, too much brushing is probably the culprit.
My mate pointed out a foothold that a few years back didn't even really exist - it was just a gravelly lump, but due to the soft rock had just worn into a hold over the years.
In reply to John Horscroft:
Climbing ban surely (what would be the logic to ban just boulderers?)
Climbing ban surely (what would be the logic to ban just boulderers?)
In reply to Steve:
The Ring Ouzel has very specific nesting requirements which tend to include areas frequented by boulderers, free standing boulders etc. Don't know the full story but will be fully up to speed after thursday. Coming?
The Ring Ouzel has very specific nesting requirements which tend to include areas frequented by boulderers, free standing boulders etc. Don't know the full story but will be fully up to speed after thursday. Coming?
In reply to John Horscroft:
"The Ring Ouzel has very specific nesting requirements which tend to include areas frequented by boulderers"
So how come I used to see Ring ouzels everday when I used to work at Creag Megaidh (often by the footpath leading into Coire Adair) but never saw any boulderers there ?
As Jenny said, this is a fairly common bird in the Scottish Highlands so its difficult to see why the RSPB or whoever are getting so exicited.
If you want to see where bird bans can lead have a look at Germany
"The Ring Ouzel has very specific nesting requirements which tend to include areas frequented by boulderers"
So how come I used to see Ring ouzels everday when I used to work at Creag Megaidh (often by the footpath leading into Coire Adair) but never saw any boulderers there ?
As Jenny said, this is a fairly common bird in the Scottish Highlands so its difficult to see why the RSPB or whoever are getting so exicited.
If you want to see where bird bans can lead have a look at Germany
In reply to Doug:
woa there. John's on your side. What he is referring to is the detailed research (which includes up to date info from Scotland) about Ring Ouzels preffered nesting sites. The BMC have very detailed information on this. If you want a copy, send me an email and I will forward you a copy.
woa there. John's on your side. What he is referring to is the detailed research (which includes up to date info from Scotland) about Ring Ouzels preffered nesting sites. The BMC have very detailed information on this. If you want a copy, send me an email and I will forward you a copy.
In reply to John Horscroft:
"The jury is out on what it is that disturbs the R O. It may even be the sheep! It would be nice if we could organise a site meeting with the birdy folk, but they seem a bit shy, like the R O. "
And I'm not surprised they're shy considering some of the opinions that have been expressed in this thread! Judging by some people here they should not be given the time to even express their opinion on why the area should come under a ban.
Presumably some people who are posting to this thread would also have happily climbed over the nesting Ravens at Millstone Edge earlier this year...?
Please try and be more sympathetic.. Stanage was there thousands of years before you were and you don't have some sort of god-given right to climb there.
Thanks.
"The jury is out on what it is that disturbs the R O. It may even be the sheep! It would be nice if we could organise a site meeting with the birdy folk, but they seem a bit shy, like the R O. "
And I'm not surprised they're shy considering some of the opinions that have been expressed in this thread! Judging by some people here they should not be given the time to even express their opinion on why the area should come under a ban.
Presumably some people who are posting to this thread would also have happily climbed over the nesting Ravens at Millstone Edge earlier this year...?
Please try and be more sympathetic.. Stanage was there thousands of years before you were and you don't have some sort of god-given right to climb there.
Thanks.
In reply to Brian:
"Stanage was there thousands of years before you were..."
So what?
"...and you don't have some sort of god-given right to climb there."
And do these birds which have recently arrived have a direct line and to the great one and a right to nest there? Don't think so.
"Stanage was there thousands of years before you were..."
So what?
"...and you don't have some sort of god-given right to climb there."
And do these birds which have recently arrived have a direct line and to the great one and a right to nest there? Don't think so.
In reply to Chauvi:
Think you misunderstood me a little - the bit about boulderers on Meagaidh was a bit of a joke,
I have a profesional interest in this (I work for a EU environment agency on conservation isues, and have worked for the likes of the former NCC & SNH) but my main point was that in Germany bird bans have been imposed in a very heavy handed manner & the same has happened a couple of times in France as well although there the bans were eventually modified.
Would be interested to see a copy of the report
Think you misunderstood me a little - the bit about boulderers on Meagaidh was a bit of a joke,
I have a profesional interest in this (I work for a EU environment agency on conservation isues, and have worked for the likes of the former NCC & SNH) but my main point was that in Germany bird bans have been imposed in a very heavy handed manner & the same has happened a couple of times in France as well although there the bans were eventually modified.
Would be interested to see a copy of the report
In reply to John Horscroft:
I've already sent my apologies and my view that stakes on Windgather are completely out of order (and why). We have our first club evening meet at exactly the same time in Nottingham. Dont know much about Ring Ouzels.
I've already sent my apologies and my view that stakes on Windgather are completely out of order (and why). We have our first club evening meet at exactly the same time in Nottingham. Dont know much about Ring Ouzels.
In reply to Doug;
The point you make about Megaidh, far from being a bit of a joke, is spot on. It coincides with Henry Folkards experience of having found Ring Ouzel nesting right next to the road at Stanage. So much for human disturbance being a factor! Don’t misconstrue my intentions. Simply because I’ve added something to this thread doesn’t mean I believe it. I’m in the invidious position of trying to foster debate by encouraging all sides. For what it’s worth, my personal opinion is that the Bird folk have yet to persuade me that a ban of any sort will encourage the R O to nest.
In reply to Brian:
Sure, some people have extreme opinions Brian, but then so do some of the ecologists. Just because a conservationist has an opinion doesn’t make it right. Let’s hope we can find some middle ground.
The point you make about Megaidh, far from being a bit of a joke, is spot on. It coincides with Henry Folkards experience of having found Ring Ouzel nesting right next to the road at Stanage. So much for human disturbance being a factor! Don’t misconstrue my intentions. Simply because I’ve added something to this thread doesn’t mean I believe it. I’m in the invidious position of trying to foster debate by encouraging all sides. For what it’s worth, my personal opinion is that the Bird folk have yet to persuade me that a ban of any sort will encourage the R O to nest.
In reply to Brian:
Sure, some people have extreme opinions Brian, but then so do some of the ecologists. Just because a conservationist has an opinion doesn’t make it right. Let’s hope we can find some middle ground.
In reply to John Horscroft:
As I emailed to Chauvi this morning after seeing the report, I don't think the pro ban case here is very strong, although thats based on my experience of this bird in Scotland. I don't have any real evidence but I do know that staff on the nature reserves at Meagaidh (SNH owned) & at Abernethy (RSPB) do have data that could be analysed to examine the relative contribution of land management (particulaly overgrazing in Scotland) and disturbance by walkers & climbers.
As the birds wont be around for the next few months it seems to me that there's plenty of time for a rational debate, hopefully using whatever evidence is available.
As I emailed to Chauvi this morning after seeing the report, I don't think the pro ban case here is very strong, although thats based on my experience of this bird in Scotland. I don't have any real evidence but I do know that staff on the nature reserves at Meagaidh (SNH owned) & at Abernethy (RSPB) do have data that could be analysed to examine the relative contribution of land management (particulaly overgrazing in Scotland) and disturbance by walkers & climbers.
As the birds wont be around for the next few months it seems to me that there's plenty of time for a rational debate, hopefully using whatever evidence is available.
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Elsewhere on the site
Loading Notifications...