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do you carry a first aid kit

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banned profile 74 03 Mar 2011
how many of you carry a first aid kit and what do you carry?please indicate if you only carry one for certain types off climbing e.g. you do for winter or trad but don't for bouldering etc
 maybe_si 03 Mar 2011
In reply to beastofackworth:

pain killers and tape, thats about it
 gjh 03 Mar 2011
In reply to beastofackworth:
I have a very small first aid kit i chuck in my bag for climbing or kayaking:
Duct tape, plaster tape, padded dressing and nail scissors.
I figure that if you need much more than that your days over anyway.
Camdaz 03 Mar 2011
In reply to beastofackworth: I carry full basic kit, painkillers, plasters bandages, safety pins , bite creams, triangular bandage, foil sheet, suture kit, butterfly stitches, scissors, tweezers, surgical wipes, info sheet for basic first aid and resus, antiseptic creams, i have other stuff in there aswell, i take this with me on all outdoor activitys, even if im going bouldering on my own i never know who i may bump into at the crag and may need first aid even if i don't. i am also a qualified first aider so that helps.
 Jonny2vests 03 Mar 2011
In reply to beastofackworth:

I carry a reasonably substantial one and have used it a few times.

http://www.fieldandtrek.com/lifesystems-mountain-first-aid-kit-785091?src=g...

It lives in my crag bag, so all forms of climbing.

 Tdubs 03 Mar 2011
In reply to wilton warrior:
Don't you strip it down just a little bit sometimes? You take insect bite creams winter climbing for example? Fair enough if you do, and you clearly know how to use it all.

To OP: I have duct tape wrapped around my water bottle, and a knife for cutting tat. I figure that if I can't do something basic with that stuff and say the clothing I'm wearing or whatever, then its beyond the scope of the situation. Of course others will disagree and that's fine, I don't like extra weight and don't have much medical knowledge really, despite a bit of first aid experience. I don't think there's much a first aid kit can do once you're past the 'discomfort' realm of injuries, although I'm more than happy to be proven wrong, and probably will.
I think its important to tailor your first aid kit to the situation at hand - for example, when I went up to Scotland for a couple of months this winter, my first aid kit consisted of lip balm and about twenty sachets of oral rehydration therapy to help with the hangovers. They got used up pretty quick.
 Mita 03 Mar 2011
In reply to beastofackworth:

I have a little plastic bag thing that everything goes into...

Steri Strips
A few safety pins
Melolin Dressing
Tape
Hand Warmer
Rain Poncho
& a few tissues...

I hope that I never need to use any of it... :0)
 Mita 03 Mar 2011
In reply to Mita: I've actually just found a pen and fork in there too... Don't ask... :0)
Removed User 03 Mar 2011
In reply to Tdubs:
i guess i tend to alter what i carry according to the situation: if out with a group i will carry a large pack of similar size to the one listed above, but if just out with friends (crag, winter, alps, etc) will carry a much smaller one - i can squeeze everything i need into something this size:
http://www.fieldandtrek.com/lifesystems-trek-first-aid-kit-785027
with painkillers (ibuprofen, paracetamol), cable-ties, glucogel/glucose tabs, cable ties, duct tape (wrapped on itself into a rectangular 'wad'), foil blanket and a couple of other bits and pieces. I think it is important to be able to distinguish what is essential first aid kit for a light-weight pack & what isn't. With respect to Wilton Warrior, duct tape can be used to create butterfly/steri strips, cool water tends to alleviate insect bites as much as topical creams (tho maybe not Kintail midgy bites) & flushing wounds can be achieved fairly successfully with water from streams or hydration systems; the only time i think triangular bandages are used is on First aid courses - clothing +/- duct tape will do the same job.
If something significantly serious happens, no first aid kit will even come close to what an MRT can cope with...unless you are going to start carrying airways, neck collars, a defib & a stretcher every time you go out. And maybe a big yellow taxi just in case.

Would i be completely out of order to suggest that a lightweight shelter and a higher pain threshold is all that most people should carry in a 1st aid kit?

lardbrain@work
 wilkie14c 03 Mar 2011
In reply to beastofackworth:
I carry a very basic zippered pouch.
Plasters, tape, dressing pads, 1 small bandage, couple of pins, cig lighter, imodium instants, cuprofen 500mg, 1 sachet of dyoralite, 1 AAA battery <rather than 3 for the headtorch, if the light is dimming, just 1 new battery will boost it for a while> bootlace and a single sachet of factor 30 <50p from mittets> and thats about it, I figure that the best I can hope to do anyway is stop bleeding. Anything else is either too minor to worry about or helicopter req!
If I'm bivvying we take a full on mountain kit evening up the weight with other communial gear
Dirk Didler 03 Mar 2011
In reply to beastofackworth: One for climbing/hill walking with seperate one for Mountain biking and Canoeing,the climbing one will be generic with things like heat pads where as the mountain bike one will have lots of wash out solution and bandages.
 LastBoyScout 03 Mar 2011
In reply to beastofackworth:

I've got 3.

LifeSystem's pocket pack, some bits taken out and a whole load more put in. This is the one I carry most, along with a triangular bandage, for climbing, mountain biking and so on.

Number 2 a much bigger kit in a waterproof box that I keep in the car and carry when I'm taking groups out.

3rd one is a box of plasters I knocked up in a hurry when I lost the compact kit - eventually found that fallen down the back of the garage.

I'm First Aid at Work trained and have done numerous other first aid courses over the years.
 jimjimjim 03 Mar 2011
In reply to beastofackworth: I never carry one, i find it much better to climb with a Royal Marine Paramedic.
I have got a kit that lives in the car but i can't see the point of carrying insect bite cream etc on the hill, if you get bit just deal with it softy.
 GDes 03 Mar 2011
Finger tape
Ibuprofen
Nail clippers
Bog roll.

What else is worth carrying? I never really saw the point of carrying round loads of bandages and dressings. If it's bad enough to need them, surely you need to get to hospital.
almost sane 03 Mar 2011
In reply to beastofackworth:
My specialist first aid kit is mostly stuff to quickly and easily deal with a few big bleeders - a few field dressings and some big pads, plus some rubber gloves, and a cutting implement (my preference is paramedic scissors if I have a group, but small folding scissors if I'm on my own). I'll also tend to carry some aspirin (in case I come across someone with a suspected heart problem). And a few plasters and some antiseptic cream in case of small bleeders.

I also carry zinc oxide tape, safety pins, cable ties, possibly some gaffer tape, though these are more general repair items - the last time I used zinc oxide tape and safety pins was to repair a tent, and they did the job just fine. Also carry an emergency shelter if the weather is or might become poor, a mobile phone and a torch.

Zinc oxide v gaffer tape - there are some things both do equally well, and each will do some things better than the other. If I'm on my own, I'll take the zinc oxide tape and leave the gaffer tape behind for reasons of weight and bulk.

This is standard for all outdoors stuff I do in Europe.

If I'm heading into places with less infrastructure and expect to be away from "civilisation" for several days, then I will start to consider carrying some powerful pain relief, some antibiotics, and some meds specific to the hazards I might face (eg dexamethasone, nifedipine and diamox if off to altitude).
 Yanchik 03 Mar 2011
In reply to GDes:

Tampons, one or two. As a sterile method of trying to stop big bleeding wounds. Anything bigger, it's a bad day.

That, I believe, is the answer to "lots of bandages and dressings." Along with (for lightweight winter climbing type scenarios) tape (which you've got anyway) and painkillers.

Y
 IainMunro 03 Mar 2011
In reply to beastofackworth:

Depending on where I'm going I carry either nothing (most of the time) or a very basic kit with paracetamol, 1 x tubigrip, zinc oxide tape and a small knife carried in a ziplock bag. Only thing I've ever used is the tape when new boots are threatening to give blisters and paracetamol for hangovers. I never go out without my mobile phone.

Basic first aid kits won't save lives but can make minor injuries more bearable. If it's serious then first aid skills and common sense are the most useful things to carry with you (and they weigh NOTHING!)

A search through the forums will reveal 100s of similar threads

Iain

PS with regards to what kind of climbing I do, mainly Scottish mountaineering in all seasons. I never carry any emergency kit when cragging as I'm rarely more than half an hour from the road. Only time I'm likely to carry a first aid kit is on overnight trips or particularly remote day trips when blisters, headaches and minor niggles are most common.
 Dan Lane 03 Mar 2011
In reply to beastofackworth:

Nope, i never carry one. I figure if you have an accident whilst climbing it's proberbly the end of the day anyway. A plaster isnt going to help if you take a 30 foot ground fall is it?
 Milesy 03 Mar 2011
Caffeine is more important than pain killers imho.
ashaw 03 Mar 2011
In reply to beastofackworth: depends where in the world i am but basically only take stuff that i can adapt and use. so often its just sanitory towels, tampons, gaffer tape and drugs Hey come on one of my first aid courses and i will show you how it works
cheers allan
Camdaz 03 Mar 2011
In reply to Tdubs:
> (In reply to wilton warrior)
> Don't you strip it down just a little bit sometimes? You take insect bite creams winter climbing for example?>

It dosn't seem a problem, suppose the weight issue if i was wanting to save for drastic weight reduction, but everything has its own slot,pocket sort of thing and its in quite a good compact case, i hardly know its in my bag until i trash my finger on a boulder prob , and i would probably do the trick of forgetting to put things back in if i did. i do a check on ointments tablets and condition every 3 months or so and replace what has run out of date and may have lost its use. it does get stripped down of plaster dressings for the children when the home kit runs short .
 deepstar 03 Mar 2011
In reply to beastofackworth: I carried a small first aid kit for about 40 years and never used it so I dont bother now,tempting fate I suppose.
 jkarran 03 Mar 2011
In reply to beastofackworth:

I've got one somewhere but I rarely take it.

Top of my sack usually has:
Fingertape
Nailclippers
Knife
Ibuprofen
Bogroll
Phone

If the day out can't be improved with something from that lot, a bottle of Coke and whatever else is to hand then it can either be ignored or needs more serious attention.

jk
Camdaz 03 Mar 2011
In reply to jimjimjim:
> (In reply to beastofackworth) I never carry one, i find it much better to climb with a Royal Marine Paramedic.
> I have got a kit that lives in the car but i can't see the point of carrying insect bite cream etc on the hill, if you get bit just deal with it softy.

5/6 yr old children are not really royal marine experts, and bite creams can soon soothe and bring back a relaxed atmosphere alround to the day trip whatever the venue, firt aid kits and aiders dont just think of themselves.
 CENSORED 03 Mar 2011
In reply to beastofackworth: I carry a knife, so I carry a FAK in case I cut myself.
 Simon Caldwell 03 Mar 2011
In reply to GDes:
> I never really saw the point of carrying round loads of bandages and dressings. If it's bad enough to need them, surely you need to get to hospital.

fair enough when you're 5 minutes from the road, a different matter when there's a 3-hour walk out!

I take the basics (plasters, painkillers), also crepe bandage and triangular bandage. The crepe bandage has been used quite a lot for twists/sprains. The triangular bandage just once when a friend broke their arm and faced a 2 hour walk before we could drive her to the hospital. Sometimes, extra clothing can be used as a makeshift sling, but this was in a summer drought and we had very little.

The main thing that people don't take with them but ought to, is some first aid knowledge.
 wercat 03 Mar 2011
In reply to beastofackworth:

The one time I have rally hurt myself in the hills I popped my ankle joint out briefly and rolled the foot right over, later all to blow up like a football and produce some scary colours...


The one item that allowed self rescue was a walking pole ... Despite the injury I managed to get 2 miles back to the car at Sligachan.

First aid of a wider nature ?
Sarah G 03 Mar 2011
In reply to beastofackworth:
I use two kits. The basic one comprises a small variety of bits and pieces that will get me through a day- painkillers, antihistamines, blister plasters, midge repellant, something to mop up blood for a minor injury (eg a scrape or scratch). This one is designed with the thought that wherever I am, whatever I may be up to, sometimes it's the minor stuff that can wreck a day.

Then there's The Big One or my Group Kit, for use if I am out with a group of peeps or doing something really serious. This one is designed with other people in mind as well as myself- I can't give other people painkillers for example, but it does contain sanitary towels for blood-mopping (cheap, effective, take up little room), space blanket, some raw sugar, a simple CPR mask, gloves, whistle, paper and pencil, and the usual first aid culprits. It all fits in small bathroom bag.

Try not to get carried away; think about what YOU could do in a certain situations and how you can adapt your clothing and even gear (eg slings) to create bandages and support for broken bones. I based my group kit on the one flogged by (I think- or at least recommended by) the MLTB or some such; then I added in a few of my own modifications based on my own preferences and known skills. For a day out with others who aren't grown ups or experienced I would add some chocolate for its energy-giving and cheering-up value, and ensure that everyone is carrying their own supplies of drink and food, and are appropriately kitted up- always check- beginners often just don't know what to bring and need telling the obvious!

Sx
 PGD 03 Mar 2011
In reply to beastofackworth:
I find a small waterproof bag with

compeed, Triangular bandage, Duct tape. Small ambulance and a large military field dressing will cover everything and is small and easy to pack.
 GrahamD 03 Mar 2011
In reply to beastofackworth:

In the UK usually just a phone.
 Reach>Talent 03 Mar 2011
In reply to beastofackworth:
Roll of tape. Anything else I can bodge together. The only addition is for big days out I'll add a blizzard bag just in case. If you can't fix it with a roll of tape or by "manning up" then you are in the mire and probably need assistance: If you can't control the bleeding with what you are wearing then you are leaking pretty badly and no quantity of bandages will get you off the hill with a broken leg so I'm not sure what the point is of carrying a full first aid kit.

If I was taking out an inexperienced group I'd obviously be a bit less minimalist.
 The Lemming 03 Mar 2011
In reply to beastofackworth:

My first aid kit, which fits into an A5 size Ortlieb bag includes.

Mars bar
10cm dressing
5cm bandage
Tape for blisters
Triangle bandage

Swiss Army knife
Safety pins
Whistle

Toilet roll
Waterproof matches (18 years old, don't know if they work)

Paracetamol
Ibrufen
Antihistamine tablets
Water purification tablets
Anti sickness tablets
Anti diarrhoea tablets

Bugger all really for cuts, I'd have to confess but the rest is for personal comfort to stop the trotts, reduce pain, nausea and minor allergies.

The bog roll gets used most.
 Tdubs 03 Mar 2011
In reply to almost sane:
Taking aspirin for cardiac problems is such a genius idea. Almost everybody on here has put paracetamol and ibuprofen on their lists but frankly they do bugger all until you've had repeated doses over a long period. But aspirin, that's a really good idea. Especially considering I once read that most people who die in the hills have heart attacks.
 Banned User 77 03 Mar 2011
In reply to beastofackworth: Almost nothing.

I agree with who ever said the main thing is knowledge

When I skewered myself on a stake I stuck a pair of socks over the wound, wrapped a pertex jacket over that and hopped 6km, that was over a 1000ft climb back over a pass.

Ok I nearly lost my leg due to subsequent infection, but I got out...
 The Lemming 03 Mar 2011
In reply to Tdubs:
Paracetamol is very good for reducing temperatures as well as pain relief.
 IainMunro 03 Mar 2011
In reply to Tdubs:

> Especially considering I once read that most people who die in the hills have heart attacks.

Sorry but that's rubbish, don't know where you read that but only about 25% of fatalities are medical related problems (heart attacks, stroke, seizures etc). Poly-trauma and exposure account for the majority of deaths.

Iain
 Tdubs 03 Mar 2011
In reply to IainMunro:
I've just remembered where it was, it was on an MRT statistics poster on the wall at Bangor A&E inbetween polishing off our mates canister of laughing gas. I seem to remember the majority of fatalities that year were heart attacks, but I could well be wrong. Obviously that would be including walkers. But I'm sure you're probably right, I was getting high at the time.
 IainMunro 03 Mar 2011
In reply to Tdubs:

Perhaps down South figures are different but certainly in Scotland deaths are more common following nasty tumbles. It's funny you mention laughing gas as I'm currently switching screens between UKC/Facebook/any other site I can waste time on and a Word document I'm currently working on, writing about the effectiveness of "laughing gas" or Entonox in child pain management! Sounds like good stuff!

Iain
 Tdubs 03 Mar 2011
In reply to IainMunro:
It hits a spot yeah, but personally I reckon the best way to manage children who are being a pain is morphine, shuts them right up.
 richprideaux 03 Mar 2011
In reply to Tdubs:

Bangor A and E and some of the staff there are involved in a mountain medicine project, and jolly interesting it is too. The MI percentage sounds about right actually, although that includes ALL 'hill' rescues, not just super-tough, bearded climbers. People on here tend to forget that they are often in the minority when it comes to activities in Snowdonia and the Lakes.

Scotland is a different kettle of fish though...

In answer to the OP: I carry a big one when working with groups (also includes repair kit such as cable ties and duct tape) which is mainly for cuts and scrapes. I have a much lighter waterproof one which is my personal one for climbing, MTBing and kayaking etc. I also have a big one in the car, with collar etc. All of them are modified and stocked with items I see as useful or have wished I had with me at other times. They have all been used 'in anger', but to varying degrees. Nothing lifesaving, for that sort of thing I've always asked for something big, yellow and leaking oil... (or some burly men and women with a Bell stretcher)

I fully agree with all comments about knowledge and common sense. Carrying a miniscule First Aid Kit and attending a weekend course such as the Woodhead MRT one is much, much better than taking a full medic pack and knowing bugger all.
adamtc 03 Mar 2011
In reply to wilton warrior: Why do you carry sutures?
 iksander 03 Mar 2011
In reply to beastofackworth: A ziplock with: heavyweight painkillers, bandage, germolene new skin, latex gloves, steristrips. Usually only bother for long days and have a full kit in the car.
banned profile 74 03 Mar 2011
wow-many good replies.im currently deciding on a first aid kit for font but dont want anything too big but maybe i will be best making my own up.a friend has the life systems pocket one but tbh theres virtually nothing in it.was originally looking at the solo traveller one or the adventuror but im worried about size as i boulder only and once you have a water bottle/flask/food/3 pairs of boots and a boulder bucket your already carrying alot of kit
Ian Black 03 Mar 2011
In reply to beastofackworth: Never go on the hill without one. I used to always carry shelter and emergency rations as well. Old habits die hard.
Camdaz 03 Mar 2011
In reply to adamtc:
> (In reply to wilton warrior) Why do you carry sutures?

My step father is a surgeon, the kits i have came with these in, i have on 2 occasions closed 2 deep cuts i had myself during an accident, had them checked by the local nurse and got offerd a job and no im not Rambo.) im not qulified to perform this on anyone but i am confident in my own ability for myself.
 efrance24234 03 Mar 2011
In reply to Tdubs: have you ever had to use the tape? i did the same and i found that after its been on for a while it doesnt come off! if you havent checked for while like i didnt lol... have a check
 Flashy 03 Mar 2011
In reply to beastofackworth: In reply to beastofackworth: I try to remember to carry plasters as cut fingers are sore and a real pain when you're climbing and getting crap in the cuts. Also blister pads for ski tours.

Otherwise duct tape and clothes I figure will cover most stuff I'm capable of handling (stabilising a bashed arm or something for the walk out), though I admit triangular bandages are pretty useful things all in all and a casualty would probably rather wear all of their clothes, and I'd quite like to wear all of mine. If I was less lazy about it I'd carry triangular bandages.

Apart from the plasters the only specifically first aid related thing I carry is a big army wound pad which is basically a vast tampon for shoving onto wounds. It seems reasonable to carry it as in those cases it's all I could do no matter what I carry, and combined with some bandaging it might keep someone going long enough for the MRT or the chopper to arrive. Better than nothing at least.

I carry this for mountain days. For single pitch crags it's probably just the plasters or nothing at all, though mostly that's me being lazy.
cpro 03 Mar 2011
In reply to beastofackworth:
in the boot of the car: general 1st aid kit medium sized with host of latex gloves, tri bandages (x4), general plasters and banages.
for my personal walking/climbing bag: tri bandages(X2), ducttape (small roll), film canister containing a few safty pins a curved needle and small length of fishing line, small knife and mg firelighter.
for group use i take my personal though only some bits would be used on anyone but myself, the one out of the car and group shelter
Greg Murrow 03 Mar 2011
In reply to beastofackworth: There seems to be a great desire to trim down what people carry to an absolute minimum. Personally I always carry a chalk bag sized waterproof stuff sack packed with the usual items in my ruck sack/climbing sack and have found attending First Aid courses not just essential to keep my qualifications up to date but great fun and useful in real life situations.

However, a suggestion for a minimalist approach (say in the zipped bottom part of a chalk bag):

SURGICAL GLOVES
COMPEED
ASPIRIN
FINGER TAPE
A WATCH
m0unt41n 03 Mar 2011
In reply to beastofackworth:
Compeed
Sam splint
Gloves
Asprin
Duct tape
Cling film
Hypostop
Diclofenac
Sharpie Marker
Camdaz 03 Mar 2011
In reply to efrance24234: I may try duct tape next time i decide to bleed all over the boulder prob in wiltons
 KiwiPrincess 03 Mar 2011
In reply to gjh:

THE HELICOPTER TOOK OVER AN HOUR TO GET THERE LAST TME WE NEEDED IT.
I always carried a small first aid kit but I am adding Bulkier compression pads to it for Day trips as we didn't have enough clothing spare to stop bleeding well. A nice big Bandage (We only had small gauze ones) to hold the around a head or large area too, we couldn't get many spare hands in a small space.

Also there are ice packs now that are like the heater pads, awesome for a light sprain.

Having said that wound closure strips,anti inflammatories, tape, saline and normal sticking plasters are the things I churn through regularly.

 Tdubs 03 Mar 2011
In reply to KiwiPrincess:
> (In reply to gjh)
>
> THE HELICOPTER TOOK OVER AN HOUR TO GET THERE LAST TME WE NEEDED IT.
... the things I churn through regularly.

I am never, ever going climbing with you.
John1923 03 Mar 2011
In reply to beastofackworth:

I just take it everywhere, It's been used a few times too.

The most serious accidents I've been involved in have been sport climbing, and driving to a crag.

Remember the point is to save someones life, not to fix up a split tip.
But you want to make it light enough so you actually carry it.

In order of importance

Gloves (very important, you have filthy hands, they have horrible diseases)
One very large dressing (I think I have a no3 ambulance dressing)
Crepe bandage
Thick Zinc oxide tape
Saline solution to wash wounds / eyes ect...
Waterproofed paper and pencils (for keeping track of a casualty over time)
Tweesers
Small square of cling film (lightweight burn bandage)

(mine weighs about 180 gramms)

Also I keep some Plasters, as it looks a bit ridiculous if you mate has a graze that is gently bleeding on his new soft-shell, and the only option is a number 3 ambulance dressing

I used to have a lot more stuff, but took most of it out to keep weight down.

Also if I'm away from the road, I make sure the team has enough clothes to spend a stationary night on the hill, usually this means that I take a Blizard systems survival tube, if someone is injured then they can't move, and the biggest risk is hypothermia.

NB I am not qualified to advise you on first aid kits.
John1923 03 Mar 2011
In reply to John1923:

I also have a whistle, some alcohol free wipes, and a tube to support breathing and keep the airway clear if the casualty is completely unconscious, has likely spinal damage, and I am on my own so can't hold the chin indefinitely.
In reply to KiwiPrincess:
> (In reply to gjh)
>
> THE HELICOPTER TOOK OVER AN HOUR TO GET THERE LAST TME WE NEEDED IT.

How inconsiderate of them to take so long!

I just carry a small kit. Couple of bandages to try and patch up any bleeding. Chucked out half the plasters and creams etc and replaced them with 10 regal King size and a lighter. We never know the day we'll need a kit but i dont want to be in the situation where I wish i'd taken one.

 Dee 04 Mar 2011
In reply to almost sane: I'm with you on the kit to carry - something to protect, something to pad, something to put pressure on with... and something for the pain.

For overseas, yes, the specific meds for altitude and travel.

As for an hour for a heli - that's pretty quick. Last incident attended (in January in the UK) was an hour, previous incidents have been longer.

Carry both duct tape and electrical insulation tape - different tensions for different purposes - general use and medical.

Found that the face masks made of a plastic sheet (complete with one way valve) struggle with significant blood loss.

Most important feature of any kit tho', as always, the ability to use it.
 nadeem 04 Mar 2011
In reply to beastofackworth: I bring my suture kit. I just hope i get to sew someone up soon basically....
 SteveSBlake 04 Mar 2011
In reply to IainRUK:

Do you always make such a fuss about things? I bet you drive your missus nuts when you've caught a cold

Steve

 Tdubs 04 Mar 2011
In reply to efrance24234:
No I seem to use duct tape all the time for lots of minor repairs and creative uses so I have to replace it every month or so. You also have to be careful because when you put boiling water in the bottle if it isn't insulated it can melt the adhesive stuff a bit and it can all go a bit gooey!
 Banned User 77 04 Mar 2011
In reply to SteveSBlake: She was quite sympathetic..Unfortunately when she de-gloved her heal before xmas and was whining away I told her to stop complaining and ran off ahead..it was only after 4 miles further and we got home she realized her skin had ripped off her heal and achilles...'I told you so'...women..always have to be right

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