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Protein shakes yes/no?

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 Philo22 17 May 2011
Am sure there has been a previous debate on this topic before but I seem to have missed it so am starting afresh. Would be interested to hear peoples experiences of using "protein shakes" post workout and if they have had satisfactory results.
Most of the research I have found online has either been carried out by the manufacturer or otherwise been pretty sketchy and inconclusive/contradictory.
Im assuming a diet high in natural protein would be a lot better but in the absence of time/money to pursue this, am wondering if a quick protein shake would go some of the way towards compensating?
Cheers
Philo
 ablackett 17 May 2011
In reply to Philo22: I have been Bob Graham fell running training - long runs 10-16 miles 2-3 times a week, 20+ miles twice a week. and have found that a shake every night, half whey protein and half waxy maize starch makes me feel like I have a lot more energy the next day. It might be psychological, but I don't care so long as it works.



OP Philo22 17 May 2011
In reply to ablackett: Yeh I'm finding it good for energy as well. Have been blending mine (express whey) with a banana, a spoon of golden syrup and several of peanut butter. Pretty tasty but not sure if it is the whey or just everything else that is working.
 Lukem6 17 May 2011
In reply to Philo22: Simply put

WHY

Your muscles are made of protein, after any strenuous activity small micro tears can appear in your muscles increasing risk of larger tears from over training etc..

To repair these protein is needed, to repair faster a little extra is needed, leaving you revitalized and ready for training, not recommended until after 48 hours of rest.

Protein is good for helping your metabolic rate and is high in amino acids all which aid weight loss, especially when coupled with increased muscle.

HOW

Protein can come in many forms(soya, whey, casein, etc) all of which can be found in foods and or food supplements.
Protein shakes are a good low fat form of protein and on average 99% of calories in a shake come from the protein, so as long as you do a physical activity you shouldn't be putting on weight from the intake of extra calories.

There is various different theories on how much but on average 0.8 Grams a day per kilo will encourage weight loss, 1 gpk for sustain endurance and recovery 1.5 for body building (not what you want).

WHEN

Try for a dietary routine with no more than 3 hours between eating. For example for me an 90kgish man on my rest day.

Eat at breakfast 10 grams (cereal with yogurt/milk)
mid morning snack Protein shake 20 grams
Lunch hoisen duck wrap/ or peanut butter sandwich (20 grams)
mid after noon snack Protein shake 20 grams
dinner cheap gnocchi with pesto, cheese and pine nuts 20 grams

Eating like this keeps your metabolic rate up and keeps your bodies furnace burning, stops you feeling tired etc




P.s I'm no expert i just read a lot and have a few friends who are fitness instructors etc.
 jimhall 17 May 2011
In reply to Philo22: I used to compete as a bodybuilder. I used to guzzle about 4 shakes and 6 chicken breasts per day!! way to much for a climber! Glad i put a stop to that! the best time to take a shake is within half an hour of training and before bed.

without enough protein and calories your body enters a catabolic state. this is where your bodys reserves are used for energy and injury repair. a terrible state to be in when you are training to become stronger and fitter. you will go backwards or make no improvments

When you get enough protein and calories you enter an anabolic state, which is ideal for making inprovments from training.

You should use the guide of between 1.5 and 2g of protein per pound of body weight. for a 10 stone man this would be 210-280g protein per day. If you can get this from 'normal' food then great, but a protein shake after training or before bed will make this much easier and cheaper.

You shouldnt forget your other nutrients as these are just as important for heath muscle growth. you shouldnt be loosing weight if you are trying to gain strength, if you are, increase the calories. it takes a bit of trail an error, but if you are gaining about 1 pound a week, thats good.

diet is more important than the training in becoming a better athlete.

Hope that helps!
 chris j 17 May 2011
In reply to Philo22: Reading "Racing Weight", by Matt Fitzgerald, as I recall he suggested anyone with a vaguely balanced diet should be taking in enough protein already that a protein shake will have minimal additional effect regarding muscle building.

But, if you're not already having a protein rich snack in the hour after a workout then that is the best time to take one to aid protein absorption.

One additional possible affect he suggested is that taking a protein shake reduces appetite for the rest of the day, leading to reduced calorific intake and therefore potential weight/fat loss.

The book's well worth reading anyway...
 chris j 17 May 2011
In reply to jimhall:
> ...but if you are gaining about 1 pound a week, thats good.

Going off-topic a bit a weight gain like that probably won't help your climbing much!
 Lil_Pete 17 May 2011
In reply to Philo22:

Science aside I tend to neck a small shake after climbing sessions and I notice I ache A LOT more the next day if I don't.

That said when I started bouldering hard, 4 and 5 days a week I went from 8st4lb to 9st4lb in 6 months ... That said I was runty before and needed to bulk up; but found I went past useful initially.
 Kemics 18 May 2011
In reply to Lil_Pete:

I was doing a little research, found most sources suggest (without steroids etc) that from just physical exercise and a good diet. It's extremely difficult to develop more than 5kg of pure muscle in a year. Doesn't sound like a huge amount, but think about 20kg of pure muscle over four years and that's a huge bulk up. putting on 6kg in 6 months is huge gains
OP Philo22 18 May 2011
Wow thanks alot guys, some great advice here. Let the muscle building commence.....
 UKB Shark 18 May 2011
 flaneur 18 May 2011
In reply to Philo22:

You lead VS and you're asking about protien shakes. How profoundly depressing.
 Stash 18 May 2011
In reply to flaneur:

your mocking his leading abilities, how sad are you!
 chris j 18 May 2011
In reply to Philo22: Before you leap off down the muscle building / weight gaining path I'd just like to say my biggest climbing gain of the last few years has come from 5 months of no climbing or strength training at all (beginning December to end of April), with 2 months of half-marathon training (March to April) during which I lost 3/4 stone. I started climbing again at the start of May and last night, 2 1/2 weeks later, redpointed my hardest route ever - 60 feet of overhanging limestone.

Obvious conclusion I'm drawing from this is that losing a reasonable chunk of the flab that most of us carry around (in my case approx 7% of total body weight) can possibly have a bigger impact on your climbing than gaining a lot of muscle (& the extra weight that goes with it).
 Kyle Warlow 18 May 2011
In reply to flaneur:
Whats his grade got to do with anything? Has he even said its for climbing?
I think not.
How profoundly Dick-head like
 muppetfilter 18 May 2011
In reply to Philo22: I had a great conversation with one of the offshore medics a few years ago (she was a former HDU matron), she was commenting on the large increase in the numbers of men complaining of kidney stones in young fit guys that went to the gym. The phrase "the body gets a huge insult of protein it cant handle" was used. The thing is protein isnt just protein, its the quality of the amino acids that make it up that will affect a training regieme not the quantity.
 Lukem6 18 May 2011
In reply to muppetfilter: Protein Isn't only for bulking up, thats just one use. Most professional marathon runners use protein shakes even that lanky skinny dude Usain Bolt.

Protein shake can aid weight loss as well improve your body's recover time allowing you to train more/harder. And could help protect against that most common of climbing injuries, the over use injury. which occurs from micro tears in your muscles not repairing between session.
Involving a high fiber and lots of fruit should help clear any crap out of your body and is proven to reduce chance of kidney stones.

If your goal is to have four shakes a day plus 6 protein heavy meals then STOP CLIMBING you'll only aid your body mass not your ability.

If your talking about 2 a day then keep it up with the right training including some cardio you'll defiantly feel better.

Remember climbing is more to do with a body weight over strength ration than it is about just being strong.
 Rich Guest 18 May 2011
In reply to flaneur:
> (In reply to Philo22)
>
> You lead VS and you're asking about protien shakes. How profoundly depressing.

Fair point really! I suppose the stickiness of the rubber on his shoes is an 'issue' too

[RIGHT, I'M OFF BTW]
 staceyjg 18 May 2011
In reply to flaneur:
> (In reply to Philo22)
>
> You lead VS and you're asking about protien shakes. How profoundly depressing.

Maybe if he takes protein shakes and trains he can climb as hard as you..... oh, your profile is empty!!
 flaneur 18 May 2011
In reply to Stash:
> (In reply to flaneur)
>
> your mocking his leading abilities, how sad are you!

In reply to Kyle Warlow:
> (In reply to flaneur)
> Whats his grade got to do with anything? Has he even said its for climbing?
> I think not.
> How profoundly Dick-head like

I may well be sad* but I'm not in the slightest mocking his leading abilities. VS is an honourable (but physically easy) grade! I'm just making the point that if he is leading VS (or even bouldering Ft7a) then he does not need to do the kind of training that *might* require additional protein to make spectaular progress.

On the basis that this is a climbing site and the question was posted in the "walls and training" forum isn't it reasonable to suppose this is a climbing training related enquiry?

*I'm sad that the meathead industry has got their claws into climbers. Don't believe the hype.

 staceyjg 18 May 2011
In reply to flaneur:
> (In reply to Stash)
> [...]
>
>
>VS is an honourable (but physically easy) grade!

Physically easy for who? It's not physically easy for everyone. I go to the climbing wall and I watch my friend who has been climbing a lot longer than me, cruise up 6b 6b+ making it look easy, I then think that I can do it, and follow him to find that the holds are to crimpy/slopey/pinchy/small whatever, for me to hang on to/pull on, therefore, not making it as "physically easy" for me as it is for him.

Easiness is subjective, depending on your build and strength so using a statement like VS is physically easy is a generalisation!
 Scarab9 18 May 2011
In reply to staceyjg:

about the same I was going to add and possibly about the same people!

It's all well and good saying strength isn't important, but it's amazing how often those people that say that then campus up to overcome a difficult section, hang off bent arms for long periods while they put gear in etc, something that I can't manage.
I think it's important when talking about strength to acknowledge its importance, but also to point out the the strength isn't necessarily from bulky muscle but strong fingers/tendons/forearms which only really happens with lots of climbing. When climbers talk about wanting to get stronger the amount of climbing they are able to do is the limiting factor rather than diet to a large extent.

also acknowledging the OP didn't specify climbing, I'm more responding to the point a couple of posts above
 muppetfilter 18 May 2011
In reply to lm610: Reading your response is rather like reading the pseudo science on the side of a cosmetics jar. It almost sounds "Sciency" but sadly isn't.
I suggest a good GCSE biology book to start with then maybe start to look at A-Level stuff on Digestion, protein synthesis and physiology.
There is a huge industry out there basically punting strawberry flavour powdered crap on the market at £40 a tub when you can achieve the same results with a well balanced diet.And a balanced diet doesnt make you look like a moron sucking from a gian sized kiddies any-way-up-cup ;0)
 Tiberius 18 May 2011
In reply to Philo22:

Ignoring the weight, strength and psuedo science issues.

Don't take them if you have to work with people in a confined environment. You'll fart a lot, and it will smell. Please let me know what walls you're going to be climbing at so I can avoid them.
 Lukem6 18 May 2011
In reply to muppetfilter: good to see we all started trolling out of boredom, let me guess its raining outside.
 muppetfilter 18 May 2011
In reply to lm610: Its not raining and im not trolling, have a look at the australian research referenced above, I think you will find it concurs with my claims of a balanced diet and the adverse effects of a once daily protein assault on the digestive system. Remember some folks took rather badly to the Atkins regieme... too much protein amongst other things.
If you read jo browns book you will see how in awe he was of the Eastern Bloc climbers who thrived at altitude on a diet of rollups, black coffee and raw salted bacon.
If you want to look like you have no neck and cant get your arms down by your sides then by all means any-way-up-cup your heart out and get injecting those roids.
However to improve climbing then technique is worth weeks in the gym.
 Lukem6 18 May 2011
In reply to muppetfilter: back with the protein shakes make you big argument. f#@+ it give me a roll up and some black coffee then that'll do my body wonders.

As the original post says there is a lot of contradictory research out there, in regards to the OP, find out for your self.
I agree the gym sucks, climbing wall any day.
If you dont like a little protein then stay away from it. It is a dietary supplement not a diet(to be consumed in moderation) and with that in mind it can benefit a balanced diet and can do more for your body than bulk you up.


Here is some decent research if you want.

http://www.webmd.boots.com/fitness-exercise/guide/protein-shakes

For general diet research for exercise The NHS.

http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/olympics/Pages/Foodforsport.aspx

Oh and remember balance and moderation even too much water can Kill
John1923 18 May 2011
In reply to jimhall:

I agree with the thrust of your argument, more protein is better, but you have been reading marketing material by protein shake companies.

There was a good peer reviewed study on rugby players, whey protein supplements lead to statistically significant improvements in muscle mass gain, compared to a control group, up to 20g extra per day. Having more than 20g didn't help

So really a 70 kg man needs about 90 - 120 g per day.

Also getting carbs with your protein is important for recovery.
 Gaijin 19 May 2011
In reply to Philo22:


I am very pro-protein shake. I use them in two recipes and two situations.

1/ Post weight work-out. Lots of whey and other amino-acids. Why? To help increase/support the muscle repair situation.

2/ For energy. During games (I play American Football) I drink a shake at half-time. Usually a heavier whey to amino-acid ratio that my workout shake. This, along with a few bananas during a game really help with energy levels...much better than chugging a Red Bull.


Both these ideas are through trial and error and have found to be the best results for me.
 Lil_Pete 19 May 2011
In reply to Kemics:

I'm fairly sure it wasn't all additional 'performance' muscle that constituted that weight increase, when I say I was runty I mean was actually quite unwell and unhealthily underweight. That said my body fat content now's only 6.3% so not sure what else the increase would have constituted of.
Removed User 19 May 2011
In reply to Gaijin:

There are different body types... some need to train to lose weight, others like me need to train to maintain weight. If I don't do weights I'll lose muscle mass. Running doesn't seem to make much difference, if I do 40 mins 3 times a wk it seems to keep my metablosim high.

I'm sticking to a regime that includes 40 pints of beer a week, inches off my waist onto my chest and a bigger d*ck, send me a blank cheque and I will reveal all.
valjean 19 May 2011
In reply to Philo22:

i tend to agree with this

http://gravsports.blogspot.com/

the eat this blog
 flaneur 19 May 2011
In reply to valjean:

Thank you for the link. Will Gadd talks sense as usual:

"Yet there are legions of people out there trying to improve their amateur sports performance through bizzare diets. I would call them idiots, but it's really a form of gullibility brought on by wishful thinking."

He could have added "...and aggressive marketing by the body dysmorphia industry aided by some academics who really should know better".
 flaneur 19 May 2011
In reply to flaneur:

> Thank you for the link. Will Gadd talks sense as usual:

> He could have added "...and aggressive marketing by the body dysmorphia industry aided by some academics who really should know better".

Actually he does:

"-Once you realize that the entire "diet" industry, even the "sports" version of it is somewhere between a scam and a religion (many religions have dietary prescriptions come to think of it) then you're on your way to decent nutrition, sports or otherwise"



The WTF diet is supposed to be good for athletes though. I hear Shani is trying it now and I'm sure we'll hear all about its benefits very soon.
 UKB Shark 19 May 2011
In reply to flaneur:>
> The WTF diet is supposed to be good for athletes though. I hear Shani is trying it now and I'm sure we'll hear all about its benefits very soon.

In the commentary he says:

"Paleo is actually better than a lot of the nonsense out there, it's just the fad of the week. It does seem to have some science behind it, but so did Pritikin, Hass, Bailey, etc... Few will recognize those names, but those of us who survived thought we were eating the best possible diet. We were wrong. Don't get fooled again!"
 pebblespanker 19 May 2011
In reply to Philo22:

I only use them post indoor bouldering sessions to aid recovery, outdoor too if I remember but the delay between leaving the crag and getting home sometimes means I give it a miss (and suffer for it lol). I found I genuinely felt much better, the muscles hurt less than if I didn't have them, the results were better than having other protein rich alternatives such as a milkshake post exercise at the wall - simple for me really. My diet is healthy balanced and contains plenty of carbs the only change was having a protein shake post wall sessions. The particular one I use was reccomended by a colleague who got back into serious competitive Tae Kwon Do in his late 30's and was suffering a lot of muscle pain after training

The fact I am an old git in his late 40's and need everything that can assist the battle against encriaching zimmerdom is a mere detail
 flaneur 19 May 2011
In reply to shark:
> (In reply to flaneur)>
> [...]
>
> In the commentary he says:
>
> "Paleo is actually better than a lot of the nonsense out there, it's just the fad of the week. It does seem to have some science behind it, but so did Pritikin, Hass, Bailey, etc... Few will recognize those names, but those of us who survived thought we were eating the best possible diet. We were wrong. Don't get fooled again!"

These diets nearly all have some science behind them (but beware the scientist who will be out of a job if they don't pull in $XXXXXXX grant income). How they work in the real world in real people who have a Tesco metro at the bottom of the street and don't have to spend hours foraging for berries is an entirely different issue.
 Shani 19 May 2011
In reply to flaneur:
> (In reply to flaneur)
>
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> Actually he does:
>
> "-Once you realize that the entire "diet" industry, even the "sports" version of it is somewhere between a scam and a religion (many religions have dietary prescriptions come to think of it) then you're on your way to decent nutrition, sports or otherwise"
>
>
>
> The WTF diet is supposed to be good for athletes though. I hear Shani is trying it now and I'm sure we'll hear all about its benefits very soon.

Both "Paleo" and "WTF" are too modern for me. I am now on the pre-Cambrian diet where I lay in a mud bath and imbibe primordial ooze. I have already dropped 3 kilos!
 MHutch 19 May 2011
In reply to Shani:

Some protein shakes taste similar to primordial ooze, so I guess the wheel has come full circle.
 mloskot 19 May 2011
In reply to valjean: Brilliant. Thanks!

Direct links for archives: http://gravsports.blogspot.com/2011/04/eat-this.html
 mark s 19 May 2011
In reply to Philo22: ive has 3 today and im still alive.
 UKB Shark 19 May 2011
In reply to mark s:

tonight if you see a long tunnel, stay away from the light. good luck
 willjones 19 May 2011
In reply to Philo22:

In my opinion protein shakes are a waste of time. The body needs only a very modest amount of protein for it's demands, which is easily exceeded in the average western diet. All excess protein is broken down into amino acids subsequently metabolised to nitrates and excreted in the urine. The only gain is energy, which if not used is converted into fat. This process also generates alot of free radicals which on a molecular level is thought to contribute to cell damage and consequently ageing.

Unless you're doing very energy intensive exercise e.g. pulling sledges in the artic, I would not reccomend them.

Will
ice.solo 19 May 2011
In reply to Philo22:

its not hard (and cheaper) getting enough protein in your diet, even if you have serious needs for it, ie training hard, putting on muscle mass, recovery etc.

BUT cant hurt you to try them. if you do, get the best you can and read whats in it.

i got into them for a while and found them dehydrating and a bit hard to digest along with normal food.
Franz the Stampede 23 May 2011
In reply to willjones:

Interesting point and it's not the first time I hear that the western diet contains way too much protein for the body's actual needs.

I am climbing a fair amount these days (3 times a week, probably about 8 to 12 hours). I am very, very thin (5"11 and 60 kgs, about 9.5 stones) and I want to keep it that way.
I am also trying to decrease the amount of meat I eat, I plan on having fish 2-3 times a week and red meat only once if not less, due to general long-term health concerns. No poultry, if possible.

Would these shakes, in moderate quantities, be good for me? I don't want to gain unnecessary muscle, but I don't want to jeopardise muscle/tendon reconstruction either... Are they a healthier source of protein than most of nowadays meat?

Thanks for the answers, no need to turn this into a vegetarians vs non-vegetarians war!
 willjones 23 May 2011
In reply to Franz the Stampede:

Your BMI is 18.4, which is a little on the slim side (but if you're naturally slim this might be ok for you).

The best thing is to have three meals a day of a balanced diet with plenty fresh fruit and veg. Most energy should be derived from complex carbohydrate - potatoes, bread, pasta etc.
If you're worried about protein, then if you eat a modest amount animal protein 2-3 times a week then this if more than enough. Fish is better than red meat.

I think taking protein supplements in addition to this probably wouldn't do you any harm, but I cannot envisage how they could be of any benefit. Personally I would not eat / drink them unless I had no choice!

Just my opinion!
 struds 23 May 2011
it's difficult and I don't know the answer, when I used run marathons I used take them during intensive training to help me recover and protect from injury, I could never tell if they worked or not.

I've gone back to them recently after trying to increase my bouldering strength, this is mainly based around an extra bouldering session a week, I'm also very skinny and struggle to put on muscle at all.

It has worked in that I went up a grade after a month and was much stronger, my recovery seemed pretty good. I'm going through a second phase now and I've definitely bulked up and my strength has improved. I've also put on about 1/4 a stone so my climbing grade is around the same.

In a month or so I'll stop focusing on strength and lean back a bit so hopefully I'll have the extra strength at a decent weight.

the big question is has the shakes made any difference? my feeling is yes, it's helped me recover more quickly, prevented injury and helped some muscle mass building... but it's probably only marginal and maybe my imagination.

but being a skinny hard gainer I need all the help I can get!

M0nkey 24 May 2011
In reply to flaneur:
> (In reply to Philo22)
>
> You lead VS and you're asking about protien shakes. How profoundly depressing.

I know this was an unpopular post but I have to say Flaneur makes a valid point. There simply is no need for strength training to climb VS. I appreciate the point that not all people find VS "easy", but if people are struggling at that grade (or struggling to progress), strength is almost certainly not the limiting factor. It will be probably one of three things: (i) ability/technique, (ii) fear, (iii) weight (i.e. lose a few pounds, don't gain em).

 chris j 24 May 2011
In reply to M0nkey:
> (In reply to flaneur)
> [...]
>
> I know this was an unpopular post but I have to say Flaneur makes a valid point.

Did you notice the OP boulders 7Aish as well? Does rather suggest his lead grade is massively below his potential, but he might be thinking about training from a bouldering point of view rather than a trad leading one.
M0nkey 24 May 2011
In reply to chris j:

didn't check his profile, was just replying to flaneurs point. you make a valid point too! Strength training will definitely be more relevant to bouldering at those grades than trad at VS.
 The Bantam 24 May 2011
In reply to Philo22:

We seem to be trying to find an answer that works for everyone, and that is just not going to happen. Our bodies all metoblise things at different rates and in different ways - for example I can eat whatever I like and it has little effect on my weight, but I know plenty of mates who stuggle like hell to stop the rise of the one-pack.

For some people, our metabolism will just p1ss out the protein shake. Other people will look like Rambo in 4 weeks. You just need to decide on what you are trying to achieve, and then experiment to see if shakes will get you there - whilst the research can't agree on whether shakes catagorically work, 99% suggest you do you little harm (at least for the couple of month you need to have aplay).

For me the least enjoyable part of climbing is the feeling like death the morning after a good session - muscle aches, tiredness, and the other signs I'm not 18 anymore. If I glug a plastic tasting shake on the drive home then I get to half the pain, which doubles my enjoyment. Whether I am 'only' climbing VS or not
 Ali 24 May 2011
In reply to Philo22: Common with what other people have said on this thread, I find that taking a protein shake after a session really helps my recovery and means I ache less (and can climb better!) the next day. Although one of the main reasons I take it is that I don't generally have a very high protein diet, so its probably getting me up to normal protein levels rather than supplementing them!

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