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NEWS: Neil Mawson - E10 - Full Story and Photos

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 UKC News 18 May 2011
Neil Mawson on the desperate and run out Muy Caliente! in Stennis Ford, Pembroke, 4 kbNeil Mawson has been tearing it up in Pembroke over the last month, making a string of hard ascents with strong support from Hazel Findlay.

The highlights of Neil's efforts are an ascent of Muy Caliente! (E10), a quick second ascent of a new E8/9 in Huntsman's Leap and a fast repeat of San Simeon (E8).

Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=62255

 tom290483 18 May 2011
In reply to UKC News:

thats a quality photo of neil on muy caliente.
 GDes 18 May 2011
In reply to UKC News: Brilliant pictures Emma.

Luke Skywalker E6?!
 james.slater 18 May 2011
In reply to UKC News:

Good effort Neil!
 The Pylon King 18 May 2011
In reply to vertigo714:

I did a new severe and repeated an E1 at Pembroke on Fri. Not sure why Emma wasn't down to take pics though.
 jon 18 May 2011
In reply to UKC News:

So I wonder what will become of JP's new route in the Leap when the old peg disappears...?
Animal 18 May 2011
Back to the future!

That's what hard routes used to look like when I was starting! Vertical, tiny holds and run-out!

It would usually be Ron Fawcett crimping his way up them though!

I have to say that shot is quite beautiful. Pics of bicep bulging bolted steep things have begun to get samey and seem sort of "confined".
In reply to UKC News:

Does MC really have 'deckout potential'? Given that the fall from the last hard move was tested quite recently. Or is this from some other run-out, or if the gear rips, or something?

jcm
 Richard Hall 18 May 2011
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Deckout potential if you fall just before the nut. It is about 8a to here.
 Tyler 18 May 2011
In reply to Pylon King:

> I did a new severe and repeated an E1 at Pembroke on Fri. Not sure why Emma wasn't down to take pics though.

What did she say when you asked her to come down and take pictures?
Removed User 18 May 2011
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Are you saying it can't be E10 due to the lack of a death fall?
 remus Global Crag Moderator 18 May 2011
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: from what i remember the numbers are: 50ft to the gear then a 40 ft runout. Would be a close thing.
In reply to Removed User:
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously)
>
> Are you saying it can't be E10 due to the lack of a death fall?

No, I'm saying it can't have deckout potential if there isn't any part of the route you can hit the deck from.

Which assuming Richard H is right, actually you can, but not from the hardest part. I'm surprised to hear it, but I expect he's right.

Mind you if I had to guess from my armchair what consensus grade this route will be in ten years' time, I wouldn't be guessing E10. On the slight evidence so far, I think an onsight ascent of, eg, Indian Face, would be rather more of a feat than of Muy C. No doubt time will tell.

jcm
 CurlyStevo 18 May 2011
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
indian face is significantly easier to top rope though right.
In reply to CurlyStevo:

As I understand, yes.

jcm
 jon 18 May 2011
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to Hardonicus)
> (...) part of the route you can hit the deck from.
>
> Mind you if I had to guess from my armchair (...)

Better an armchair than a wheel chair though John!
 Richard Hall 18 May 2011
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

> Which assuming Richard H is right,

Nah, i just made that up

> Mind you if I had to guess from my armchair what consensus grade this route will be in ten years' time, I wouldn't be guessing E10.

The Big Issue is thought to be runout but safe 8a+, Tim's route is thought to be 8a+ (or 8b?) with what may be a death fall if you mess up the last hard moves of an 8a.


>I think an onsight ascent of, eg, Indian Face, would be rather more of a feat than of Muy C.

What makes you think that?

IF is a 7b+ which you cant fall off most the way up.

Tim's route is an 8a from which you can not fall off the crux, followed my gear placed off a mono, followed by a V7ish boulder problem.

 James Oswald 18 May 2011
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
From Dave Mac's Blog:
" think Linford Christie would struggle to prevent a boulder splat from 50 feet up if you fell off the end of the runout."

But I'm pretty sure Tim says on that video that if you fell off the end of the monster runout you'd probably be just ok.
Who knows!
James
In reply to Richard Hall:
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously)
>
> Tim's route is an 8a from which you can not fall off the crux, followed my gear placed off a mono, followed by a V7ish boulder problem.

I thought you could fall off the crux, just not the bit before the gear?? I thought the crux was the boulder problem after the bomber gear had been placed??

This is just from having watched Welsh Connections, the vid of Tim doing it, and the vid of James doing it, so I could well be wrong...

DC
 Richard Hall 18 May 2011
In reply to Duncan Campbell: Sorry, i think you misunderstood me.

If you fall off the crux of the bit upto the gear, which is thought to be about 8a. The crux of the actual route is higher up, above the gear, making the route 8a+ (or 8b, not sure).
In reply to Richard Hall:

>What makes you think that?

Just a guess, really. So far the only evidence we have is that MC's had the same number of repeats in two months as IF has had in 25 years, and that James P has come within an ace of flashing MC whereas no-one's tried IF in that style. Obviously that isn't much and there could be a torrent of onsights of IF round the corner this summer. Like I said, time will tell.

jcm
 Franco Cookson 18 May 2011
In reply to Richard Hall:
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously)
>
> [...]
>
> Nah, i just made that up
>
> [...]
>
> The Big Issue is thought to be runout but safe 8a+, Tim's route is thought to be 8a+ (or 8b?) with what may be a death fall if you mess up the last hard moves of an 8a.
>
>
> >I think an onsight ascent of, eg, Indian Face, would be rather more of a feat than of Muy C.
>
> What makes you think that?
>
> IF is a 7b+ which you cant fall off most the way up.
>
> Tim's route is an 8a from which you can not fall off the crux, followed my gear placed off a mono, followed by a V7ish boulder problem.


O dear..... describing the Indian face as a bold 7b+ is kind of missing the point.

From the footage I've seen of MC it really doesn't look like too bad a fall. Big and into space, but by Tim's own admission you wouldn't hit the deck from the most run out bit with a good belayer. Certainly a physically difficult route though.


However, really great effort getting all those routes done. His and Pearson's recent efforts just go to show how far sport fitness can revolutionise steep trad.

It will be interesting to see what grade routes like MC rests at, as it becomes more and more normal for top trad climbers to have F8c fitness. One thing is for sure though, routes like the Indian face will never get any easier.

 John2 18 May 2011
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Didn't James MacHaffie attempt to on sight IF, resulting in his second having to run to the top to chuck him a top rope?
 Franco Cookson 18 May 2011
In reply to John2:

That was Master's Wall. Redhead tried it onsight I think, but drilled a bolt and lowered off- the tormented ejaculation. That was before JD did it though.
In reply to Franco Cookson:

Yes, true of course, I shouldn't have said no-one's ever tried it. Indeed I believe Hank Pasquill tried it armed with some sort of super sky-hook BITD.

I just picked IF because it's famous; my guess is we're less likely to see an onsight of say If Six Were Nine before one of MC as well.

Not that I have the least idea really, obviously. Although IIRC Tim E himself gave it 'hard E9/soft E10'; it's the subsequent publicity machine has bumped it up to E10.

jcm
 The Pylon King 18 May 2011
In reply to Franco Cookson:
> (In reply to John2)
>
> That was Master's Wall. Redhead tried it onsight I think, but drilled a bolt and lowered off- the tormented ejaculation. That was before JD did it though.

what, drilled and placed a bolt on the lead?
 The Pylon King 18 May 2011
In reply to Tyler:
> (In reply to Pylon King)
>
> [...]
>
> What did she say when you asked her to come down and take pictures?

she said she was not going to be down where we were climbing and so couldnt.


 chris j 18 May 2011
In reply to Pylon King:
> (In reply to Franco Cookson)
> [...]
>
> what, drilled and placed a bolt on the lead?

Thought he took the big fall and then went back and abbed in and drilled a bolt at his high point.
 henwardian 18 May 2011
In reply to UKC News: Hmm, the Indian Face. I find it entertaining that every single time there is a debate about how hard a hard route is, IF is brought up for comparison. There are actually quite a lot E9s out there now, like a dozen on grit? and another score (or more?) across the rest of the empire? Dogmatically bringing the same climb up time and again is totally losing perspective on the debate.
 GrahamD 18 May 2011
In reply to henwardian:

Arguably comparing everything back to a few grit routes which would be treated as high ball boulder problems rather than routes elsewhere is also losing perspective somewhat.
 Steve Crowe Global Crag Moderator 18 May 2011
In reply to John2:
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously) Didn't James MacHaffie attempt to on sight IF, resulting in his second having to run to the top to chuck him a top rope?

Yes you are right. James decided not to continue and untied and dropped his ropes and waited... a long time... for his second to scramble up the descent and drop a top rope down. First attempt was in the wrong place and Caff coudn't reach it so had to wait a little longer still with no protection... until finally he could reach and tie on to the top rope!



In reply to henwardian:

IF just happens to be the most famous and the one which has been up longest without being onsighted, thus making the point most vividly.

But call it a general point if you will, since no-one has yet flashed any E9 (I think?) in the 25 years since the grade was first climbed, there's a fair chance that an E10 which is nearly flashed within five minutes of the first ascent may turn out not to be E10 at that point in the future when all routes are absolutely correctly graded and the UKC forum has to close down.

jcm
 Arms Cliff 18 May 2011
In reply to GrahamD: I'm not sure the Curbar ones would fit into anyone's definition of a highball, and neither would Parthian Shot!
In reply to Steve Crowe:

Not that right, Steve - that was Master's Wall as Franco said.

jcm
 Franco Cookson 18 May 2011
In reply to Arms Cliff:

I thought parthian shot settled at E8? (now unclimbed in it's current state)
 henwardian 18 May 2011
In reply to GrahamD:
> Arguably comparing everything back to a few grit routes which would be treated as high ball boulder problems rather than routes elsewhere is also losing perspective somewhat.

Did you even read my post?
 Franco Cookson 18 May 2011
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to henwardian)
>
> IF just happens to be the most famous and the one which has been up longest without being onsighted, thus making the point most vividly.
>
> But call it a general point if you will, since no-one has yet flashed any E9 (I think?) in the 25 years since the grade was first climbed, there's a fair chance that an E10 which is nearly flashed within five minutes of the first ascent may turn out not to be E10 at that point in the future when all routes are absolutely correctly graded and the UKC forum has to close down.
>
> jcm


very good point. Perhaps it's just a very flashable route though- safish, well videoed (not the case with IF), far more secure climbing, possible to train for...
 henwardian 18 May 2011
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> But call it a general point if you will, since no-one has yet flashed any E9 (I think?) in the 25 years since the grade was first climbed, there's a fair chance that an E10 which is nearly flashed within five minutes of the first ascent may turn out not to be E10

I agree. What I object to is everything always being compared to the same one climb. If there was a debate whether something was E5 or not, you wouldn't see everyone only comparing it to Right Wall, you would (hopefully) see a debate in which people mentioned lots of other climbs and hence came up with a much more reliable result.
 Alkis 18 May 2011
In reply to Franco Cookson:

Actually, Redhead got up to the midway point and fell off. He placed the bolt afterwards. He talks about it in "The story of the Indian Face".
 Franco Cookson 18 May 2011
In reply to henwardian:

I think johncoxmysteriously's point is that there aren't that many H9s you can compare MC to, and the ones you can- big issue, birkett's, Macleod's hardly anyone knows anything about, as they've hardly seen any interest- apart from the big issue I suppose (I don't know owt about it).
In reply to Franco Cookson:

>Perhaps it's just a very flashable route though- safish, well videoed (not the case with IF), far more secure climbing, possible to train for...

Isn't flashability what the grade measures?!

jcm
 Franco Cookson 18 May 2011
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

True, although perhaps more onsightability/ ground upability. MC may be harder to onsight than IF, even if it is an easier proposition to flash.

To be honest it's pretty cringe-worthy talking about this, as it is beyond what I could headpoint, nevermind flash.
 henwardian 18 May 2011
In reply to Franco Cookson:
> I think johncoxmysteriously's point is that there aren't that many H9s you can compare MC to, and the ones you can- big issue, birkett's, Macleod's hardly anyone knows anything about, as they've hardly seen any interest- apart from the big issue I suppose (I don't know owt about it).

I think I know more about Achemine and Walk Of Life than Indian Face, I guess I must be in a minority. Obviously I've seen lots of footage of people on hard grit lines but they are quite a different proposition.
In reply to Franco Cookson:

I don't know about that. I can't play football either, but that doesn't stop me having an opinion about what Alex Ferguson ought to do, and my observations suggest this isn't an uncommon phenomenon with other fans either.

jcm
 Franco Cookson 18 May 2011
In reply to henwardian:

The problem with those routes is that one hasn't been repeated (as far as I know) and the other is at the centre of a grade dispute. I do admit that they would be better comparisons than the Indian face though due to their style.
In reply to UKC News: Maybe all these repeat ascentionists were actually psyched off their faces to try and flash Indian Face, but North Wales is an absolute gop-fest at the minute and cloggy is the last place you would want to be... so they picked nice sunny pembroke

maybe MC is easier to 'control' than IF?? As in: route reading easier, positive foot and hand holds, allowing down-climbing more dynamic movement and confidence. Add to this larger runners (rock 6's over filed down RPs). Makes a route that rewards commitment, whereas Indian Face may well punish commitment when you stray off line...

Didn't Johnny Dawes say "its F7b dying to F8c on you" (roughly)

Anyway, what matters is that all these guys have put their nuts on the line to climb all these amazing hard lines all over the country in a variety of different styles... I'm inspired to get back to pembroke AND up to cloggy once my exams are over... (not trying MC or IF though)

DC
 John2 18 May 2011
In reply to Franco Cookson: I thought that the climbing on MC was supposed to be strenuous and physical, rather than blind and insecure as on IF (which Dave MacLeod took the wrong line on on his first top rope attempts). Rather more similar to the European sport routes on which Pearson had been training.

I guess the only person to have a truly informed opinion is MacLeod.
 Mike Stretford 18 May 2011
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to Franco Cookson)
>
> I don't know about that. I can't play football either, but that doesn't stop me having an opinion about what Alex Ferguson ought to do,

Fergie's doing fine, it's Wenger who needs help.

In reply to Papillon:

Ah, well that's your opinion!

jcm
 John2 18 May 2011
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Not that I wasn't confused, but according to the Dixon guide MacHaffie was attempting MW but had probably strayed off route onto IF.
 Brendan 18 May 2011
In reply to UKC News: What was he thinking? He would have flashed it if he'd worn silly sunglasses and an iPod.
 Chris Shorter 18 May 2011
In reply to Zardoz and others:
> (In reply to Franco Cookson)
>
> Actually, Redhead got up to the midway point and fell off. He placed the bolt afterwards. He talks about it in "The story of the Indian Face".

There was a series of attempts over a couple of years (at least) before the bolt was placed. I was holding John's ropes on the first two days. John spent a long time contemplating possibilities on the ab rope first; I wouldn't judge his attempts to have been "on-sight" but they weren't after top-rope practice either. On the first day, he got to the highest point that he ever did but darkness set in and he miraculously managed to get down unharmed. The bolt certainly was not placed on the lead and my (possibly unreliable) recall is that it wasn't actually John that did the dirty deed, although I was not there that day.
 Franco Cookson 18 May 2011
In reply to Chris Shorter:

Thanks for sharing that, great to hear these accounts of what went on and to think that it was the same team on the cliffs of wales as had been up on Stratagem in '77, putting up the moors' first E5.
In reply to Franco Cookson:
> (In reply to Chris Shorter)
>
> Thanks for sharing that, great to hear these accounts of what went on and to think that it was the same team on the cliffs of wales as had been up on Stratagem in '77, putting up the moors' first E5.

Great perspective, Franco!

jcm
 Max factor 19 May 2011
In reply to henwardian:
> (In reply to UKC News) Hmm, the Indian Face. I find it entertaining that every single time there is a debate about how hard a hard route is, IF is brought up for comparison. There are actually quite a lot E9s out there now, like a dozen on grit? and another score (or more?) across the rest of the empire? Dogmatically bringing the same climb up time and again is totally losing perspective on the debate.


Well yes, unless of course there is a discussion about a recent ascent of Indian Face, in which case you have to mention how it CAN'T be E9 because.. blah blah blah.
 pebblespanker 20 May 2011
In reply to Zardoz:
> (In reply to Franco Cookson)
>
> Actually, Redhead got up to the midway point and fell off. He placed the bolt afterwards. He talks about it in "The story of the Indian Face".

And painted a small acrylic picture by the boilt if I remember the news reports at the time

On the subject of IF I may be completely wrong but isn't one of the issues that some of the holds are a little fragile thus adding to the spice/risk/crater potential ???
 MJ 20 May 2011
In reply to pebblespanker:

"And painted a small acrylic picture by the boilt if I remember the news reports at the time".

I don't think so. Redhead pulled a flake off Indian Face after Dawes's ascent and painted "two climbers in conflict" on the resultant scar.

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