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NEW ARTICLE: Rescue on Kanchenjunga - May 2011

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 UKC Articles 02 Jun 2011
Summit of Kangchenjunga, 4 kbUKC User Anselm Murphy (aka Topper Harley) has recently climbed Kanchenjunga, the world's third highest mountain.

On his descent he assisted another climber - Cleo Weidlich - when she became ill and stranded on the mountain. This is his gripping and scary blog account.

Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=3785

 winhill 02 Jun 2011
In reply to UKC Articles:

This was in the paper today as well, no mention of the base camp scenes though.

http://www.thisisnottingham.co.uk/news/chance-dying-Ted-conquers-forbidding...
 Topper Harley 02 Jun 2011
In reply to winhill:
Wow, I can't believe how many inaccuracies and just plain wrong information is in that article. Annoying.
 creag 02 Jun 2011
In reply to Topper Harley:
Get used to it. I've spend 20 years involved with Mountain Rescue in Scotland and reading the press accounts of an incident you were actively involved in can be frustrating.
Let nothing get in the way of a good story... especially the truth!!!
 centurion05 02 Jun 2011
In reply to UKC Articles:

great story, yourself and Ted should put the bad thoughts behind you and realise that you done a great job on Kangchenjunga. Well done again.

Centurion05
 RichJ634 02 Jun 2011
In reply to Topper Harley: I know little of the world of high altitude climbing, and have heard many stories of unreliable sherpas but surely the actions of the few should be taken pretty seriously. I know you say that a couple of specific sherpas were not bad people but they were still there to do a job, in a serious environment and they seriously screwed up. I hope that something can be done to bring them to account.

Well on you part in events in any case.
Chateauneuf du Boeuf 02 Jun 2011
In reply to UKC Articles: What a load of orientalist BS. Particularly offensive is the smarmy assessment of plausibility in parenthesis. Its not even a decent bit of writing its really quite dull, some rich Californian go-getter gets a minor injury, turns out its fine. Minor scuffle at the end but another rich white guy pacifies the natives with an axe. Its beyond belief how ridiculous some of the things on this write -up are. Strange how the author doesn't seem to understand why they are cleaning the mountain. Who else will do it? the excessively hairy city workers who climb poorly in their spare time or 'like a challenge'? I fully support the Sherpas, why do overtime for some rich toffs that care nothing for you land or people but simply hire you to do the donkey work for their rather long winded effort to gain bragging rights down the wine bar. Also why not give some loud mouth who goes round whinging about incidents he knows nothing of something to think about? I think the challenge seeking footloose globetrotters come out of this far worse even from this account, would be interested to hear the Sherpas take on the matter.
 geordiepie 02 Jun 2011
In reply to Chateauneuf du Boeuf:

A nice balanced view yo have there, assume you were on the mountain as well?
 Topper Harley 02 Jun 2011
In reply to UKC Articles:
I have just posted a video on youtube if anyone's interested:
youtube.com/watch?v=HC2Us0HdZBE&
 Tdubs 02 Jun 2011
In reply to Chateauneuf du Boeuf:
Tw*t
In reply to Chateauneuf du Boeuf:

"some loud mouth who goes round whinging about incidents he knows nothing of"

Seeing as he was actually on the mountain at the time of the event and heard the accounts first-hand I would say he, possibly, knows more about this than you do.
And yes the sherpas are right to clean the mountain however are they really right to take shelter, food, oxygen etc from an injured woman who was forced to spend more time than expected on the mountain even though they were going to have everything cleaned up and returned to them at the base-camp? If anything they were having their workload lessened; how does that constitute them doing overtime exactly?
(On the other hand I accept that you are probably just trying to provoke argument with this post. If so, why not go start a bolting debate instead of criticising someone who has put themselves out to save another's life.)
bull2010face 02 Jun 2011
In reply to UKC Articles:

As usual the Sherpas take the fall.
 Tyler 02 Jun 2011
In reply to swivory:

> Seeing as he was actually on the mountain at the time of the event and heard the accounts first-hand I would say he, possibly, knows more about this than you do

I think CdB was refering to the Alex character in the story.
 JamButty 02 Jun 2011
In reply to UKC Articles: Hard to justify the Sherpas actions. Even if you considered they could have been suffering at altitude and made bad decisions, to continue all the way to base camp is unbelievable.
Nice to hear someone caring about another climber when all to often you hear stories of people being left for dead.
well done Topper and well done for topping out!
 Hannes 02 Jun 2011
In reply to Chateauneuf du Boeuf: I'm not sure if you're being intentionally stupid or if it is just you, but anyway, it is a rather extraordinary story and has certainly made me think more about relying on people whom you don't know particularly well on a mountain.
In reply to Tyler:
I am fully aware he was talking about alex but that does not change the fact that someone hearing the stories first hand in the camp direct from the horses mouth is likely to know a lot more about what happened than someone reading a news article in the comfort of their own home. That was the point I was trying to make.
 RichJ634 03 Jun 2011
In reply to bull2010face:
> (In reply to UKC Articles)
>
> As usual the Sherpas take the fall.

What a stupid comment. Sherpas historically have not gotten the recognition they deserve and were often badly treated and used/abused as a mechanism for the success of those paying. However, that doesn't change anything with regards to this story. If it is true then the Sherpas were out of order.
 FreshSlate 03 Jun 2011
Injured woman, friend, lying in the snow (apparently near big drop to glacier).

Do you A) Rush to her help or b) Get out our camera and take a picture?
 AlanB1968 03 Jun 2011
Sounds like the risks of bottled oxygen dependent commercial mountaineering to me. The behaviour and attitudes on both sides is dismaying.
As for a fight at Base Camp - seen bust ups before following high altitude exposure. Much like City Centres on beered up Saturday nights.
High altitude mountaineering isn't a pleasant happy clappy activity. With 30+ people summiting on the same day it's probably only good luck and fair weather that ensured there weren't multiple fatalities.
 Topper Harley 03 Jun 2011
In reply to FreshSlate:
I think this is a very unfair comment. You present this as an either/or option - either help OR take a picture. I had the camera around my neck, it took 2 seconds to take a picture and then I descended to help.
I thought it was important to have the picture because she was seriously let down by all three sherpas she had paid to help her, and this proves it.
 Tyler 03 Jun 2011
In reply to Topper Harley:

> she was seriously let down by all three sherpas she had paid to help her

What help, exactly, are these sherpas paid to give. I've no knowledge of high altitude mountaineering so am confused as to what is expected of the client, the guide and the sherpas. Did she have a guide or climbing partner?

Anyway, its great she got down ok and it sounds like you did a sterling job, something to be proud of.
Removed User 03 Jun 2011
In reply to Tyler: As I posted on the other thread:

The women Cleo sounds like a bit of a nightmare.

If you're rescuing her, and she's refusing the drugs that will help you get her down surely you are within your rights to bloody jab her with it anyway?

Also, Sherpas aren't guides are they? They have no duty of care because you pay them a pittance to carry your stuff do they? No that I'm suggesting some of them weren't being tw@ts.

 Jackwd 03 Jun 2011
In reply to UKC Articles: Theres always going to be some c u next tuesday, who thinks he knows the story when he quite obviously doesn't. At the end of the day, if someone you didn't know, out of the good of their heart rescued you in that situation you would be astronomically grateful. Without the help of Anselm, someone may have lost their life on that mountain and I am in complete awe and admiration of him. Incredible stuff.
 Charlie_Zero 03 Jun 2011
In reply to Topper Harley:

Three personal sherpas.........
 JamButty 03 Jun 2011
In reply to Jackwd: I agree, all this stuff about pay and duty of care - where does humanity and moral obligation fit in. I couldn't walk past and leave someone without first doing all I could.
 George Ormerod 03 Jun 2011
In reply to Topper Harley:
> (In reply to r0x0r.wolfo)
> I think this is a very unfair comment.

I think you forget that you were merely there, lacking the omniscience that is bestowed by a comfy chair, keyboard and the internet.

Well done for helping this lady out.
 RBK 03 Jun 2011
Removed User 03 Jun 2011
In reply to AlanB1968:

I am with you on this.

If people need some combination guides/sherpas/gas/fixed ropes to get up and down a mountain then if anything goes wrong, even a little thing, with this support structure then it is almost definitely epics are us time.

Then things spiral quickly out of control and you get into the that horrible grey area of just how much support can individuals expect from other people who are near thier limits.

If you can not climb something without a support sturcture that effectivly removes your need to rely on yourself, then when that support structure is no longer fully functioning you will be in trouble and to be fair, its your own fault.

And a bit unfair on those who have to put themselves at risk to save you.

Look at that diaster on K2 some of ther climbers were so reliant on the fixed ropes they were only carrying one axe! On K2 FFS!

Gary.
 Topper Harley 03 Jun 2011
In reply to Kendal47:
> (In reply to UKC Articles) A good piece on this by Nick Bullock here: http://nickbullock-climber.co.uk/2011/06/02/i-want-it-and-i-want-it-now-i-w...


I was pretty disappointed that Nick has criticised me quite heavily. For someone who has never met me he seems to dislike me a lot. Much of the article is devoted to saying that I suck and am not a 'proper' climber.

This is the comment that particularly upsets me:

"When things go wrong like it did in this case, if Cleo Weidlich or you had gained the experience that you both should have gained in the first place, you could possibly get yourself out of trouble and then would not have to rely on other human beings to do it for you"

Why am I being slated for being inexperienced? I'm not the one that needed rescued and I did manage to get her 'out of trouble'. I did not rely on anyone else.
 david14 03 Jun 2011
In reply to UKC Articles: Gripping, scary, no. Sickening yes. Not many are coming out of this farce looking too good.
Tigermoth 03 Jun 2011
Chateau, mate you're a turkey!
 jon 03 Jun 2011
In reply to Topper Harley:

I've just glanced at this thread for the first time today and I can't believe how some of the armchairs have swivelled against you. Unbelievable... I'd ignore them if you can, but I know it must upset you. I read your blog when you posted your first photos and was very impressed with the way that you conducted yourself in such a hostile place. I don't see why you should now get shit thrown at you.
 DJonsight 03 Jun 2011
In reply to UKC Articles: A very interesting insight into the world of high altitude so-called mountaineering, as practiced by some.

Makes the Rum Doodle expedition seem humble and self reliant, and brings new relevance to the question "what have they done on't grit?" Probably on-sighted Ulyses with a human pyramid of personal Sherpas...
kircwood 03 Jun 2011
In reply to UKC Articles:
There seems to be a lot of critics of what happened and a lot of this is getting aimed at Anselm who had his blog republished by UKC. A lot of criticism is getting aimed at him (not just on here but on other sites) when from all accounts he saved this woman’s life. I wonder how many of those criticising can say they have done the same thing.

At the end of the day a lack of experience (according to one) is neither here nor there – a life was saved by this man and if this hadn’t of happened there would be one more death for this mountain. Also problems can occur no matter how much experience you have, you only have to look at the history of mountaineering to see this.

We know one side of the story, the side of the story of the person who saved this life. Yet do not know the story of the lady who was saved or the Sherpa’s who were with her, or the events which lead up to this. Without these, all the criticism is being aimed at the wrong person. The internet is a very easy place to say things without knowing the full circumstances or the people involved. It also seems to be the only place where people feel the need to criticise, people they have never met before about events they were not there for, vocally to the world.

This is a personal report of what occurred on the mountain. None of us where there so cannot judge those involved, and until we have been in that situation we don’t know. Whatever problems you may have with any of the parties involved a life was saved and he should be congratulated for this. So congratulations Anselm.
Viralata 03 Jun 2011
It is time to break the monopoly that the Sherpas™ have on the high altitude porter/guide industry.

For 40 some odd years the Sherpas™ from the Khumbu and those in Sikkim/Darjeeling have controlled, through political and social means, the access to the mountainous regions of the central Himalaya. Their disregard for clients, such as the situation with Cleo, though not pervasive, is endemic. These unfortunate occurrences as described by Mr Murphy can be traced to the attitudes of the upper echelons of Sherpa™ power whom, through the institutionalized power they wield, have become relatively rich by regional standards.

These sorts of attitudes are always associated with monopolistic hegemonies and are a direct result of lack of direct economic competition.

The Sherpas™ are a political force to be reckoned with:

-They have blocked the proposed opening of Machupuchare as it would directly compete with clients for the lucrative Ama Dablam/Khumbu trade.

-Through a system of racial favouritism and nepotism they reward their fellow Sherpas™ with lucrative trekking/climbing/guiding contracts.

-They directly block the entrance of non-Sherpas™ into the elite high altitude guiding trade.

-Access, fees and distribution of wealth through mountain tourism is strongly controlled by Sherpa™ power


Ask yourself, when was the last time you saw another one of Nepal's ethnic groups guiding? Is it because they are any less capable? Or is it because they have been systematically denied the means to improve their skills and to have access to the critical education needed to thrive in the industry?

The Sherpas™, as a political force, are a bunch of thugs and gangsters. Through the geographical good fortune of having been located next to Everest they have parlayed their luck into a monopoly Cecil Rhodes would be proud of.

Make no mistake, the Sherpas™ are no more capable of the task at hand as several dozen other ethnic groups from the high-mountain regions of the world.

If this all seems a bit incredulous, go ahead and ask anyone who works for Sherpas™ and who is non-Sherpa™ what their prospects are in the industry. You will be surprised by the stunning similarity of responses.


I am sure many will dash out to defend the smiling Sherpas™, but I assure you behind the scenes of the multi-million pound trade in mountain tourism, the Sherpa™ bean-counters are busily improving their strangle hold on their little fiefdom.

For every happy client that has been served by the friendly Sherpa™, there are a dozen non-Sherpas™ that have been abused and discarded as they bang into the glass ceiling of Sherpa™ power.

The Sherpas™ have built quite a business of presenting mountain tourists a neat little package of high altitude paradise, meanwhile behind the scenes, the wheels of their industry continue to be lubricated by the sweat of their fellow Nepalis et al.

It is no surprise that once in a while the ugly truth that is Sherpa™ Inc. bears it's head. Luckily for the Sherpas™, the climbing seasons are as short as peoples memories.
Viralata 03 Jun 2011
In reply to Chateauneuf du Boeuf:
> (In reply to UKC Articles) What a load of orientalist BS.............blah, blah, blah..........

Ideological bollocks. Spoken from the mind of a child.
 ScottMackenzie 03 Jun 2011
In reply to Topper Harley:

Topper, I agree with pretty much everything Nick wrote however I do believe if someone wants to climb solely to summit mount everest or another high mountain then fine its a personal decision. People are motivated to climb by different reasons. However - its not taking responsibility for your safety and the safely of others that I genuinely despise. Unfortunately lack of experience and not taking responsibility often (but not always) comes hand in hand with accidents on 8000m mountains. This is just another case of it on a different hill.

Well done for getting Cleo down the hill, no doubt she'd still be there without your help and you should be proud of that. No one can take that away from you and Ted - very impressive.

On Ama Dablam once a Sherpa pushed a western guy (lets call him 'Bob') into me saying help me he's too tired to carry on. Bob was wrecked, exhausted and way way into the red. We were over 6000m and the Sherpa didn't know what to do. They'd been to the summit. Just because Bob paid for a climbing Sherpas doesn't mean its some kind of green light of safety. Sherpas take a huge amount of risk every year to help people climb mountains. Most are amazing people who will go out on a limb for you at their choice, yet some are not and will not. It wasn't the Sherpas fault on Ama Dablam that he didn't know what to do, it was Bob's for not taking responsibility for his own safety. Ultimately it was Bob's lack of experience not realising earlier he was too tired that got them into the situation in the first place. As it happened, they both got down, very slowly, a few days later (luck).

So in your case, these specific Sherpas acted poorly in this situation. Tough shit. Just because Cleo paid them to carry her stuff up the mountain doesn't mean anything. Yes, with hindsight they should have left the O2, tents or whatever - they didn't - get over it. Clouded judgement, different opinions, bad decisions, good decisions, economically driven decisions - things happen on the hill that may not make sense to me, you, them or others. You can't turn it into a 'this is what they SHOULD have done' situation. These Sherpas were not qualified guides, its Cleo's fault for not taking responsibility and assuming they were qualified to look after her.

I'm of course really pleased that Cleo survived. Perhaps in a strange way it was a good experience. I've had some tough experiences in the hills and each one is a chance to learn from. Perhaps through the experience Cleo will plan more about when things don't go right - o2 failure or the meltdown of her "Three personal sherpas". Perhaps a one to one IFMGA or highly experienced guide would have been more appropriate - perhaps they might have realised the HACE danger sooner and prevented the whole situation unfolding. Perhaps she should have realised the danger herself on the way up and not put your lives in danger. Perhaps she was just unlucky - or very lucky if you look at it another way.

Perhaps on reflection you should have known how to perform a Dexy injection yourself, perhaps Ted was ill and it was just you and him, no Sherpas, no Cleo, no help.

 ScottMackenzie 03 Jun 2011
In reply to Viralata:

Wow! I presume you wrote that on your cheaply sourced laptop, available thanks to the wonders of capitalism. Europe has been doing some form of what you wrote about Sherpa™ Inc. since 1066.
Viralata 03 Jun 2011
In reply to Scott_M@c:
> (In reply to Viralata)
>
> Wow! I presume you wrote that on your cheaply sourced laptop, available thanks to the wonders of capitalism. Europe has been doing some form of what you wrote about Sherpa™ Inc. since 1066.


No, I wrote it on a M@c. But thanks for making my point, what is needed is MORE capitalism, MORE open market, not less. Monopolies, in the long run, are bad business for everyone. The only way the Sherpas ™ will be held accountable, or any monopolistic entity for that matter, will be through economic pressures, not through blogging.

Cheers Scott! I thoroughly enjoyed the quick history lesson!

 ScottMackenzie 03 Jun 2011
In reply to Viralata:

Haha no worries Viralata & good dig at my 8 year old username! Spot on

Fully agreed though, monopolies are bad in the long run. Not sure Apple would agree with you though, looking at their share price. Or the Sherpas™ for that matter looking at their new found prosperity to the rest of Nepal!

Anyway, we digress! This isn't our thread and neither of us like monopolies, and we can't change it by blogging. Maybe if we all stop buying M@cs and going to Khumbu that would be a start (we could start a facebook group?). I'm going to Pakistan this summer instead but I did just buy an iPad2! (would I still be able to join the group?).
 ChrisHolloway1 03 Jun 2011
In reply to Chateauneuf du Boeuf: Urgh, your first contribution to this forum since March....and it's complete crap.

@ Topper

Good effort bud, you guys did good out there
 francoisecall 03 Jun 2011
In reply to Topper Harley: Nick Bullock is a member of this self labelled elite mountainering clan who despises anybody who is not living like a tramp in order to climb. I think you did a fantastic job. You have as much a right to be on the mountains as Mr Bullock. He also started somewhere!
Chateauneuf du Boeuf 03 Jun 2011
In reply to francoisecall: Wow. My post has elicited a rather amusing response. Its perhaps worth adding my post is in no means a dig at the guys actions but at the woefully arrogant slant on his post.

Im sure Nick Bullock did start somewhere and his writing often comes across as rather elitist and number obsessed. But soloing VIs and onsighting E6 before heading to the high mountains is a bit different to walking up green gulley tied to a guide or doing a four hour marathon (for example). The point being there is an obvious progression in Bullocks path, a clear interest in the process not simply gaining bragging rights.

Also as others have said if you reduce any nexus between humans to simple money and naked self interest don't expect anything more noble in return. I didn't quite get the incredulous attitude to the selling of the oxygen? The guy and girl are paying these sherpas to put their lives in harms way lugging stuff they themselves aren't fit enough to carry up, why the hell is charging for an additional favour not in keeping with this. You can't treat people like shit then expect them to treat you like a brother when your in need.
 Soap 04 Jun 2011
In reply to Chateauneuf du Boeuf: Please explain how they are being treated like shit when they are being paid to do it, or are they now being enslaved as well?
 garethMottram 04 Jun 2011
In reply to Chateauneuf du Boeuf:

> Im sure Nick Bullock did start somewhere and his writing often comes across as rather elitist and number obsessed. But soloing VIs and onsighting E6 before heading to the high mountains is a bit different to walking up green gulley tied to a guide or doing a four hour marathon (for example). The point being there is an obvious progression in Bullocks path, a clear interest in the process not simply gaining bragging rights.

I fail to see your point on that? You happen to be aware of Nick's very impressive progression, as are many of us. However I happen to know that Anselm is capable as a leader on ice and has scraped and saved his way onto these expeditions (while working in outdoors shops and temping) for the love of it, particularly this last one. He's by no means well off nor has he been 'dragged up' many of the routes by guides.
If you've climbed with him, you may not call him fast but you would call him sound.
Nick appears to be picking a fight with more well known 8000m climbers via Anselm but seems to be unwilling to call them out by name. The major reason for setting up Anselm's web site was that there was someone else claiming to be the youngest irish man to summit everest and trading on bragging rights they knew they weren't entitled to.
Is using oxygen on an 8000m peak cheating? in my opinion yes it is, does that mean that it's not an accepted tactic, no. Many people, I suspect Nick included, blog without being able to write the code to post on the internet, is that cheating, in my opinion it is, does that mean that they are not doing something that is considered acceptable? Apparently not.
You see how easy it is to make assumptions about people with out ever having met them? it's harsh and it's un-supportable, particularly if there is a very simple way of getting in touch with them in order to back up a piece of writing.
This simply shows the difference between blogging or forum posting and journalism. It is not a matter of being in print or written by an undoubtedly very talented and capable climber to define accuracy. I sincerely hope Nick will take the time to actually talk to Anselm about this having written such scathing comments about him with little prior research.
 jon 04 Jun 2011
In reply to Chateauneuf du Boeuf:

I'd assumed, by the tone of your posts, that you were somehow qualified to write in such an all knowing and aggressive manner. Then I looked at your profile...
Chateauneuf du Boeuf 04 Jun 2011
In reply to garethMottram: Nicks post is not so offensive as far as i could see. Youngest Irish person up everest - what a joke. Who cares, how many young irish have tried? Jon how does my profile suggest I don't? I could be the youngest speaking swahili speaking Coventry dweller to have summited everest in the last month for all it gives away. I could be a sherpa? Your guilty of making the same assumptions about me as I am Anselm. But you don't have the terrible facial hair and arrogant imperialistic blog write-up or personal webpage to go off.
 jon 04 Jun 2011
In reply to Chateauneuf du Boeuf:
> I could be the youngest speaking swahili speaking Coventry dweller to have summited everest in the last month for all it gives away. I could be a sherpa?

Are you?
 Morgan Woods 04 Jun 2011
In reply to Topper Harley:
> (In reply to Kendal47)
> [...]
>
>
> I was pretty disappointed that Nick has criticised me quite heavily. For someone who has never met me he seems to dislike me a lot. Much of the article is devoted to saying that I suck and am not a 'proper' climber.
>
> This is the comment that particularly upsets me:
>
> "When things go wrong like it did in this case, if Cleo Weidlich or you had gained the experience that you both should have gained in the first place, you could possibly get yourself out of trouble and then would not have to rely on other human beings to do it for you"
>
> Why am I being slated for being inexperienced? I'm not the one that needed rescued and I did manage to get her 'out of trouble'. I did not rely on anyone else.

That was my first thought when i read those lines. I think your actions prove you have what it takes to operate at altitude. Being part of a commercial expedition doesn't negate this. Bullock is coming across as a bitter old fart....the first thing he should do is remove Dream Guides from the "Friends" on his blog since they similarly offer "over exploited trade routes" as a precursor to climbing 8000m peaks.

"Who is it for?

To be prepared for climbing Everest, you will need a good grounding in mountaineering (typically climbing to alpine ‘AD’) and have at least climbed to 6000m. You should also have sufficient experience to understand the nature and risks involved in such an undertaking. Climbing an 8000m peak such as Manaslu (8156m) or Cho Oyu (8201m) before going to Everest is the ideal preparation, giving you the experience and confidence in your ability to operate at extreme altitude."

or is it ok when your mates are encouraging this western consumerist "I want it and I want it now" mentality?
 Richard_M 04 Jun 2011
In response to Nick Bullock’s Blog and Chateauneuf du Boeuf:

I am not a high altitude mountaineer and have no idea of the stresses placed on climbers at these altitudes so unlike certain posts on this forum I will not make naïve, judgemental decisions based on idealism.

I am however fortunate to be a friend and former colleague of Anselm, a keen climber and have spent a substantial amount of time climbing with Anselm.

I would like to correct a few points made by people who have never met him. Having worked in a climbing shop with Anselm I can assure you he’s a passionate climber as well as a passionate mountaineer. It was only after a week or so that I actually found out that he had climbed Everest etc… and this was from a colleague not from him. So I can assure you he is very humble about his achievements and I have never witnessed him ‘bragging’.

Regarding the points made in the blog about what qualifies you to climb High Altitude Mountains:

-They love being in the hills – I know very few people who will take the train by themselves to north wales to go and enjoy the challenges and solitude of walking large hills. (But because they work in a climbing shop, they have very little money and sleep on train platforms overnight because they can’t afford direct tickets). That doesn’t sound like he loves the hills to me.

- The action – I’m not sure how High Altitude mountaineering or leading on ice and rock is not action?

- Friendship – You cannot imagine how many people (don’t worry I’m only referring to his climbing friends) are appalled by this narrow minded defamation of Anselm’s character from someone who has never actually met him.

-As far as I’m aware he’s not keen on ‘celebrity status’, but in order to be able to afford to follow your passion you have to put yourself forward. Not all of us are lucky enough to not have to work to fund trips away.

- Regarding experience, do we all have to stay stum about our experiences until we have achieved guru status? So seeing as Anselm enjoys Climbing, ice climbing and Mountaineering what exactly should he do before he can be classified a climber? I thought the great thing about climbing was that it’s all about the experience, personal challenge, lack of conformity to the norm and just getting out there? After reading the comments I’m very confused and I have clearly missed the point of climbing. Should I be concerned that I shouldn’t discuss my climbing experiences just in case I’m not good enough to merit an opinion or give an accurate account of what I saw because a ‘better’ climber, who wasn’t there, says I’m wrong?

I’m very proud of Anselm and his achievements on Kangchenjunga and would like to say congrats on topping out and for having the courage ‘or stupidity’ to risk his life above 7000m for someone he had no real bond with. This I believe is testimony to his character and moral fibre and I wonder how many armchair critics would have this within them if confronted with the same situation? I would like to think all of you but I sadly doubt this. Good work Murph, we’re all extreamly proud of you.

 Dominion 04 Jun 2011
In reply to Topper Harley:


> Why am I being slated for being inexperienced? I'm not the one that needed rescued and I did manage to get her 'out of trouble'. I did not rely on anyone else.

Exactly, and did a good job of getting her out of trouble when there were more experienced people (the sherpas) there who it seems were just prepared to abandon Cleo, presumably when she was being difficult from the cerebral oedema.

Congratulations on the ascent - and even more for the descent and for taking the time to go back for and look after someone that the more experienced people on the mountain at the time seemingly abandoned.

A good job, well done, both you and Ted.



Also, having read Nick Bullock's blog, who seems to think you have a "ignorant and haughty view-point" - well, sometimes you have to tell it how you see it, and it would seem that that is what you've done.

||-)
Tom Knowles 04 Jun 2011
In reply to Topper Harley:

I'm not going to get into the specifics of what happened with your team mate, Cleo, but I do understand where Nick is coming from with his comments. Your website has tags for Everest, Cho Oyu and Kanchenjunga, with information stating that you've climbed each of them on particular dates. For example:

"At 8586m high Kangchenjunga is the 3rd highest mountain in the world. On 20 May 2011 I summited via the original ascent route, the South West face."

Why did you not mention that they were only done with the use of bottled oxygen etc?

For example:

"At 8586m high Kangchenjunga is the 3rd highest mountain in the world. On 20 May 2011 I summited via the original ascent route, the South West face, using bottled oxygen, Sherpa support and fixed ropes."

Can you understand that this sort of self-publicity/less than full disclosure will irritate some people, especially those climbers who approach their climbing in a much purer style? Now I know that you're not necessarily trying to cover up that you used Sherpas, oxygen etc, but the very fact that you leave it out of the blurb under the tags is your way of making more out of the ascents than should be. Sure, by omitting this information, it all sounds much better, more dramatic, to non-climbers (or climbers who see no difference in a purer style) and to potential sponsors. But, like I said, it's just going to irritate some folk. It's really that simple.

8000m peaks have been ascended without bottled oxygen for nearly 60 years now. It really is time to move on! Ueli Steck's recent retreat from a stone's throw distance of Everest's summit because he refused to use supplementary oxygen (to warm his feet) is emblematic of the pure style that guys like Nick Bullock have adopted (albeit on lower peaks). When Ueli Steck retreated, he was legitimately operating above 8000m. By using bottled oxygen, you're not climbing 8000m peaks, you're artificially reducing the mountain's height. In this respect, many people will agree that you have still to climb your first 8000m peak. I'm sure if you're honest with yourself, you'll also agree this is the case.

You obviously have some affection for the mountain environment, even though you may be driven more by attaining certain goals within this environment. Perhaps this is why you've jumped straight to the obvious and widely recognised high peaks rather than cut your teeth on the other facets of climbing that Nick refers to? As Nick rightly points out, by skipping out this "apprenticeship", you skip the chance to have a deeper understanding of the activity you're involved in, as well as you as a climber. You then have to rely on fixed ropes, Sherpa support and bottled oxygen to make progress, which actually holds little worth in many climbing circles. Sadly, it also means that if you, or a team mate (as in your recent outing), get into trouble, then you turn to these aids for assistance.

Walter Bonatti once said, "The mountain itself is a pile of stones, and climbing only makes sense if you consider the man. As a climber, the top is not something physical you achieve, but something spiritual. The mountains are the means; the man is the end. The idea is to improve the man, not to reach the top of the mountains."
 Topper Harley 04 Jun 2011
In reply to Tom Knowles:
> (In reply to Topper Harley)
>

>
> Why did you not mention that they were only done with the use of bottled oxygen etc?
>
>Because I had assumed most people would understand an ascent of a high 8000er to be done with oxygen, unless stated otherwise.

You said that "that this sort of self-publicity/less than full disclosure will irritate some people". I think that's very unfair - it implies I am deliberately being dishonest about what I've done. There is no attempt on my website to conceal that I used oxygen - if you had bothered to read anything you would see that it is mentioned often and there are lots of pictures of me using it. It's hardly a secret. If you had also bothered to read the 'Everest' or "Cho Oyu" page you would see that I name the companies I went with and thank the sherpas involved with helping me. Again, this is hardly "less that full disclosure". So do a bit of research in future before you go accusing me of being dishonest/deceptive.

About this "Youngest Irish person up everest" business - I actually agree this is a joke. It means nothing. There was actually someone else claiming this stupid title who knew I was younger than him by 5 years when I climbed it, but it didn't seem to have stopped him being reasonably successful in getting sponsorship. What was so ridiculous about this guy is that he also knew there was an Irish woman who was actually the youngest to climb it at the time, so he made his exceptionally carefully worded title 'the youngest Irish MAN'. Being of very modest means I needed to try and get some help in making the Kangchenjunga expedition happen. So I made a website and used this meaningless title because I thought it would appeal to non-climbing types who might therefore help with sponsorship. Result - almost no sponsorship, but a little, so it was worth it. Every little helps.


 Jim Brooke 04 Jun 2011
In reply to Tom Knowles:
> Walter Bonatti once said, "The mountain itself is a pile of stones, and climbing only makes sense if you consider the man. As a climber, the top is not something physical you achieve, but something spiritual. The mountains are the means; the man is the end. The idea is to improve the man, not to reach the top of the mountains."

Quite right - the achievements and the process by which they are attained are quite personal. All other things being equal, what gives anyone the right to judge another by the route they choose to achieve their goals?
 JamButty 04 Jun 2011
In reply to Jim Brooke:
> (In reply to Tom Knowles)
> [...]
>
> Quite right - the achievements and the process by which they are attained are quite personal. All other things being equal, what gives anyone the right to judge another by the route they choose to achieve their goals?

Totally agree, this all sounds the same as debates about onsite, red point, head point....whatever. If you're happy with your acheivements who else should judge you.

 francoisecall 04 Jun 2011
In reply to Tom Knowles: Everybody is allowed to play by ther own rules. Why are some people getting irritated? Because they fear it detracts from their highly competitive view of their achievements. If they were just climbing for their sole self esteem they would not get irritated by comparing themselves to others, or being worried that others might steal from their perceived glory.
 Erik B 04 Jun 2011
In reply to francoisecall: and so the Himalayan circus continues... its all about money you see.. and we all know the affect money has on the human species...

Mr Bullock is a wisened old trout, however, despite his reservations he still adopted the use of leonardo's flying machine in one of his recent himalayan quests.. is anyone out there whiter than neige?

 Milesy 04 Jun 2011
In reply to Tom Knowles:
> 8000m peaks have been ascended without bottled oxygen for nearly 60 years now. It really is time to move on! Ueli Steck's recent retreat from a stone's throw distance of Everest's summit because he refused to use supplementary oxygen (to warm his feet) is emblematic of the pure style that guys like Nick Bullock have adopted (albeit on lower peaks). When Ueli Steck retreated, he was legitimately operating above 8000m. By using bottled oxygen, you're not climbing 8000m peaks, you're artificially reducing the mountain's height. In this respect, many people will agree that you have still to climb your first 8000m peak. I'm sure if you're honest with yourself, you'll also agree this is the case.
>

Wind your neck in. Everything reduces the mountain to your level. The tweed wearing, step cutting generation would be disgusted with modern crampon and technical axe use on the mountains.

Nuts, cams, ropes, crampons, axes, down clothing. These all aid climbing in the same way. The oxygen-less elite have no place to dismiss other people's use of it and armchair high altitude mountaineers certainly don't.
 jon 04 Jun 2011
In reply to Topper Harley:
> (In reply to Tom Knowles)
> Because I had assumed most people would understand an ascent of a high 8000er to be done with oxygen, unless stated otherwise.

Out of interest Anselm, do you happen to know if any guiding set-ups DO let their clients climb 8000s without oxygen?
 Kemics 04 Jun 2011
In reply to UKC Articles:

Amazing effort, to have a contributed in a small way to making the world a better place. Definitely a well deserved pint

Also incredible to see the amount of detractors come out of the wood-work. But the the internet (particularly the ukc) does seems to be the cowards refuge, because talking shit in person could be dangerous.
In reply to Topper Harley: Top effort Anselm.
mountainsheep 04 Jun 2011
In reply to Topper Harley: Quite a few people on here are criticising you on here and I'm not really sure why, at the end of the day from your blog if you weren't there she'd still be lying face down in the snow today, ignore the critics and be proud of your self.
 jimmyjames1985 04 Jun 2011
In reply to Topper Harley: Why is everyone having a dig at you?! i dont get this at all. Sounds to me like you did a great thing up there, and i tip my bonnet to you sir! You risked your neck for someone else and thats alot more than most of us would do!

I know the Sherpas arnt there for a "back up plan" in any way shape or form. And i can totally see the sherpas point of view, especially as they risk themselves plenty on a daily basis for pittence as it is, and at the end of the day, no, its not their job to look after the client if the shi* hits the fan.

I certainly wouldnt expent anyone to risk themselves at my expense, BUT the energies they used hauling down gear could have been used to help Cleo. Just leave the effing gear and get this person off the hill. Then just lump her with the bill for the left gear/ clean up costs or whatever st the end.

I also dont get why people are slating you for using Sherpa's / fixed ropes/ oxygen and the lark!? I mean how the F*** would you do it otherwise? You would have to be there for f ing months! if u didnt employ those servies! ok Fair enough, the style might not be the purest for in the world. But who cares.i think if you have a full time job/life at home outside of climbing, then surely we cant expect Reinhold messner style solo attempts up unknokwn routes.. its the most we can ask for (and its still an awesome achievement btw). You would have to be employed in the industry,to expect otherwise.

Also what is it with the elitest bilge that is so so so common amongst mountaineering circles. Honestly i think its so off putting to the sport. I've heard so many top climbers talk in a manor that says us "norms" dont have a right to be having a crack at a mountain. Well hey, if you have sufficient experience, feel confident that you can do it and wont risk anyone else, and an expedition is prepared to take you on, then i say you have every right!

I mean do these elitists not want us to hire them as guides?????!!!!!! i dont get it...we are apparently not mountaineers unless you do it by fair means..and yet they are prepared to put forward their servies as guides, to take clients up these mountains, therfore breeding the kind of people they despise so much!! jees!

anyways rant OVER! lol
Tom Knowles 04 Jun 2011
In reply to Topper Harley:
> (In reply to Tom Knowles)
>
> >Because I had assumed most people would understand an ascent of a high 8000er to be done with oxygen, unless stated otherwise.
>
> You said that "that this sort of self-publicity/less than full disclosure will irritate some people". I think that's very unfair - it implies I am deliberately being dishonest about what I've done. There is no attempt on my website to conceal that I used oxygen - if you had bothered to read anything you would see that it is mentioned often and there are lots of pictures of me using it. It's hardly a secret. If you had also bothered to read the 'Everest' or "Cho Oyu" page you would see that I name the companies I went with and thank the sherpas involved with helping me. Again, this is hardly "less that full disclosure". So do a bit of research in future before you go accusing me of being dishonest/deceptive.


I never said anywhere that I thought you were trying to be dishonest. Listen to me. I have read every word of your website, which is why I said above:

"Now I know that you're not necessarily trying to cover up that you used Sherpas, oxygen etc, but the very fact that you leave it out of the blurb under the tags is your way of making more out of the ascents than should be."

Under your Everest and Cho Oyu tags, as well as your Kanch tag, there's no mention of supplementary oxygen. That alone makes it "less than full disclosure". Perhaps you yourself have assumed that all 8000m peaks can only be climbed with the use of supplementary oxygen? Personally, now that we're well into the 21st century, I assume that all 8000m peaks should be tackled without bottled oxygen. Can I ask why you didn't attempt these peaks without it? What do you think of someone who attempts 8000m peaks without supplementary oxygen, even though there is a high chance that he/she won't reach the summit?

The point of my previous post was to try and explain to you why someone like Nick might be irritated. I completely understand your need to get sponsorship, the self-promotion etc. That doesn't mean I would do it myself. I hope you can take off your blinkers for long enough that you too can understand other people's points of view.
Tom Knowles 04 Jun 2011
In reply to jimmyjames1985:

> I also dont get why people are slating you for using Sherpa's / fixed ropes/ oxygen and the lark!? I mean how the F*** would you do it otherwise? You would have to be there for f ing months! if u didnt employ those servies! ok Fair enough, the style might not be the purest for in the world. But who cares.i think if you have a full time job/life at home outside of climbing, then surely we cant expect Reinhold messner style solo attempts up unknokwn routes.. its the most we can ask for (and its still an awesome achievement btw). You would have to be employed in the industry,to expect otherwise.

You epitomise the ignorance that surrounds 8000m climbing. You say how would you do it otherwise? Have you ever wondered why most high altitude climbing is referred to as a "circus"?
 Denni 04 Jun 2011
In reply to UKC Articles:

Anselm,
good effort mate on the summit and the help you gave.

Ignore all the doom mongerers, you're damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Den
 jimmyjames1985 04 Jun 2011
In reply to Tom Knowles:

why the condensending tone?

And tell me how its ignorant then!? sounds like you agree its a fact?! I know its called the circus becasue that IS the way its done for commercial expeditions!

im no expert btw its just my 2 cents.

tell where the ignorance is though please and i will endevour not to be in the future

 Soap 05 Jun 2011
In reply to Tom Knowles: I fail to see how anyone can be getting irritated about the style of ascent without being a bit of an elitist tw*t.
ice.solo 05 Jun 2011
In reply to UKC Articles:

show of hands from anyone here whos been on an 8000m peak ~
tradmania 05 Jun 2011
Nick Bullock is a one trick pony who has foresaken almost all other facets of humanity for the mountains, he can't empathise with the other 99.99% of humanity who live life with a broader mix of commitments, ambitions etc. I wouldn't pay much attention.

 FreshSlate 05 Jun 2011
In reply to Topper Harley:
> (In reply to r0x0r.wolfo)
> I think this is a very unfair comment. You present this as an either/or option - either help OR take a picture. I had the camera around my neck, it took 2 seconds to take a picture and then I descended to help.
> I thought it was important to have the picture because she was seriously let down by all three sherpas she had paid to help her, and this proves it.

And it's a good picture for your blog too, don't forget that. Why'd it even cross your mind? Bizarre. Guess it's another one for your holiday snaps collection.
 JuneBob 05 Jun 2011
In reply to Tom Knowles:
I see your best onsight is E4 - I presume that is without gear and in bare feet?

And I don't think Nick Bullock climbed Changabang in his undies. What a wuss.
 JuneBob 05 Jun 2011
In reply to FreshSlate:
Taking photos of a friend in distress is a tricky call - if they survive they'd probably wish you had; if they don't you probably wish you hadn't.
 Morgan Woods 05 Jun 2011
In reply to FreshSlate:
> (In reply to Topper Harley)
> [...]
>
> Guess it's another one for your holiday snaps collection.

Guess that's easy to say behind the cloak of anonymity.
 ChrisHolloway1 05 Jun 2011
In reply to Tom Knowles: Tom I disagree entirely with everything you have said, and you really aren't coming across very well in your comments.

You say he is dishonest for not detailing his use of supplementy oxygen, why? I would have said that climbing above 8000m without oxygen is so uncommon that the assumption of any normal person would be that oxygen was used unless otherwise stated. The majority of literature I have read where oxygen hasn't been used is recorded as "<name> climbed Everest without the use of supplementry oxygen", and I am yet to read "<name> climbed Everest, with oxygen".

Your moan about high altitude mountaineering being a "circus" is akin to me telling someone who climbed Snowdon via the Pyg track with a mountain leader to help, that their achievement meant nothing because they didn't go via Crib Goch, alone, without a guide; needlessly demeaning an achievement. The fact is Anselm did a good job in a bad situation, and he himself was not struggling.

You're obviously a purist when it comes to climbing, and thats cool you are entitled to your own opinion. However don't try and force your beliefs on others by belittling their achievements.

 ChrisHolloway1 05 Jun 2011
In reply to ChrisHolloway1: And as for Nick Bullock, I think this quote just about summarises him and his attitude to others:

"I would like to think Mr Murphy set himself these 8000 metre challenges, or as he likes to call them adventures, (Got some news for you Mr Murphy, climbing Lillaz and Patri left hand in Cogne are not really adventures!)"

Really? Well maybe they were to him Nick? But what do I know I only recently started climbing in the E grades, I guess I should just accept that me finding them hard is just me being to weak and pathetic huh?
 ChrisHolloway1 05 Jun 2011
In reply to Tom Knowles: And incidently Tom I noticed Kenton Cool recently climbed Everest for the 9th time, looked like he used Oxygen in the pics.....better tell him he didn't do it right?
 drunken monkey 05 Jun 2011
In reply to ChrisHolloway1: Well said mate. Sums up my thoughts pretty well.
 Mr Lopez 05 Jun 2011
In reply to ChrisHolloway1:

So what is it you disagree with?

From Nick Bullock's blog:

"After reading Mr Murphy’s report the thing I wanted to say was yes, some of the actions taken by the Sherpa’s sounded like the wrong decisions, but Sherpa’s are not machines, they are not super human, they are human beings made of flesh and blood and bone who get scared, suffer, cry, get altitude sickness, frostbite and think about their wives and children. Sherpa’s live in a third world country where education for hill people is rare so the best way to earn money is by risking their lives to fix rope, carry oxygen, carry food, carry tents and molly coddle people who want something immediately without gaining the experience to actually do it in good style, and in good style I mean without the use of Sherpas, or oxygen or fixed rope and by carrying your food and stove and gas and tent. Do you really think by paying some money to a person they should die or risk their lives more than they already have? When things go wrong like it did in this case, if Cleo Weidlich or you had gained the experience that you both should have gained in the first place, you could possibly get yourself out of trouble and then would not have to rely on other human beings to do it for you resulting in you get upset when you find out they are fallible and as scared to die as much as you. And if you did die up there when on your own, well hello, its a big bad game this mountaineering lark.

Another annoying fact of this type of mountaineering is how people attempting to climb 8000 metre mountains with very little actual climbing experience (I use the term climb loosely as jumaring fixed ropes is not climbing) appear to think that handing over a load of cash will help when the crap hits the fan . No mountain guide or a Sherpa can guide an 8000 metre mountain when the weather comes in and with more experience you would know this and would not be shocked when it turns into every man and woman for themselves.

I am pleased that Cleo Weidlich has recovered, and well done in helping her, but she was a member of your climbing party and a friend and I would expect nothing less. So maybe in the future if she returns to the mountains she will have gained more experience, so she does not have to depend on other people and hopefully Mr Murphy will do the same and his attitude about others risking their lives for him, as the Sherpas did by fixing rope, setting up camps, going to the summit, carrying oxygen and gear, will be a little more forgiving."
 ChrisHolloway1 05 Jun 2011
In reply to Mr Lopez: Perhaps you are confused, I was disagreeing with Tom's comments above, the comment I take exception with from Nicks blog was not included in the section you quoted above (see my comment above)
 birdie num num 05 Jun 2011
In reply to Chateauneuf du Boeuf:
Its perhaps worth adding my post is in no means a dig at the guys actions but at the woefully arrogant slant on his post.
>
Ha Ha! It was worth adding. Num Num's keen eye spots a certain irony in that remark.
 Mr Lopez 05 Jun 2011
In reply to ChrisHolloway1:
> (In reply to ChrisHolloway1) And as for Nick Bullock, I think this quote just about summarises him and his attitude to others:
>
> "I would like to think Mr Murphy set himself these 8000 metre challenges, or as he likes to call them adventures, (Got some news for you Mr Murphy, climbing Lillaz and Patri left hand in Cogne are not really adventures!)"
>
> Really? Well maybe they were to him Nick? But what do I know I only recently started climbing in the E grades, I guess I should just accept that me finding them hard is just me being to weak and pathetic huh?

Uh, ok. This ^^^^^^^^^^ made me think you somehow thought otherwise.
The first part of his blog seems just like a background on the climber's experience.

Any of the other Bullock's haters would like to point out what is so unreasonable about his comments i posted above? Just because i quite agree with him, so would be nice to know where i'm going wrong.
 ChrisHolloway1 05 Jun 2011
In reply to Mr Lopez: I am in no way saying that what Nick said about Sherpa's is wrong, and I agree with him, and I make donations to this project http://www.cherem.co.uk/ run by a friend of mine.

What I take objection to is the way Nick demeaned Anselm's climbing experience. Climbing is subjective and what someone finds easy, someone else finds hard, and telling someone something they have done and consider an achievement, is in fact not an adventure at all is poor, and reminds me of some of the losers I see hanging round the gym snorting at people lifting lighter weights.
 1202alarm 05 Jun 2011
In reply to UKC Articles:

Anselm, apart from all the criticism you've had from all on the internet well done for helping another person in need. The satisfaction you can take from that should take the sting out of all the barbs thrown your way from online whingers...

 Jim Brooke 05 Jun 2011
In reply to Mr Lopez:

> Any of the other Bullock's haters would like to point out what is so unreasonable about his comments i posted above? Just because i quite agree with him, so would be nice to know where i'm going wrong.

I imagine a lot of reaction stems from his comment about easy ice routes in Cogne, as posted above by ChrisHolloway1. I might agree with some of his comments that you quoted, but frankly speaking once I got to that cheap shot I couldn't be bothered reading any more....
Tom Knowles 05 Jun 2011
In reply to ChrisHolloway1:

> You say he is dishonest for not detailing his use of supplementy oxygen, why? I would have said that climbing above 8000m without oxygen is so uncommon that the assumption of any normal person would be that oxygen was used unless otherwise stated. The majority of literature I have read where oxygen hasn't been used is recorded as "<name> climbed Everest without the use of supplementry oxygen", and I am yet to read "<name> climbed Everest, with oxygen".
>
> Your moan about high altitude mountaineering being a "circus" is akin to me telling someone who climbed Snowdon via the Pyg track with a mountain leader to help, that their achievement meant nothing because they didn't go via Crib Goch, alone, without a guide; needlessly demeaning an achievement. The fact is Anselm did a good job in a bad situation, and he himself was not struggling.
>
> You're obviously a purist when it comes to climbing, and thats cool you are entitled to your own opinion. However don't try and force your beliefs on others by belittling their achievements.

Chris, you're failing to see the point on many things, which is turning this thread into a slagging match. There's no need for it! The majority of people attempt 8000m peaks with bottled oxygen and massive support. This is driven by guiding companies responding to the voracious appetite of an ever-increasing number of clients. These clients are in the main vastly inexperienced in high-altitude mountaineering, hence the need to employ people to sort permits, carry their bags, break trail, construct camps, outline an ascent plan, interpret weather and generally monitor clients' progress. All of what I've said so far is fact, not opinion.

Part of what Nick is getting at is the way Sherpas have been portrayed by Anselm. Climbing at its core is about dealing with situations yourself, or with the help of your partner. The problem is that many people have become so brainwashed that they believe the only way to tackle an 8000m peak is with a convoy of support (see previous post by jimmyjames1985). In turn, when that support breaks down, people are held to account. This is utterly unacceptable.

When Jon Krakauer's book, "Into Thin Air" first came out, so too did the following review:

"Given the increasing numbers attempting Everest since the relaxation of regulations limiting numbers on the mountain, a big pile-up was an accident waiting to happen and so, in a way, was this book. Despite the gruesome subject matter the writing is excellent and the story compelling, so much so that Thin Air is widely credited with starting the Everest publishing 'boom' which swept the USA during the late 90s. Krakauer blows the gaff on the Himalayan circus surrounding the 8000m peaks with his insightful analysis of the insanity of attempting to 'guide' inexperienced clients at very high altitudes, The book is a gripping account of the 1996 Everest mega wipe-out and doesn't mince words when it comes to apportioning blame. The controversy over his judgements continues unabated to this day. One thing is for sure though; you won't want to go on a commercial trip up an 8000er after reading this - unless you're a dork like that Bear Grylls bloke of course. Ironic footnote: Thin Air was in the New York Times' best-seller listings for months. Bookings on commercial 8000er trips soared after all the publicity it generated. There's a lot of them about."

Interestingly, Alpinist Newswire had this to say recently about Apa Sherpa reaching the top of Everest for the 21st time:

"While Alpinist.com does not usually report on Everest climbing records we thought that this was an important record to highlight. In the West climbing Everest once is enough to turn someone into an inspirational speaker. For Apa Sherpa summitting Everest is something he does once a year, for work."

As for your comment regarding Kenton Cool, he is in charge of a commercial outfit. Any use of oxygen by him is in order to safeguard his clients who can't look after themselves. His, and his Sherpa's rescue, of Bonita Norris last year is another clear example of clients being out of their depth on the high mountains:

"It was a huge day, not something I would want to do again," said Kenton Cool, the 36-year-old professional mountaineer whose climbing company helped Norris achieve her dream. "I do everything in my power to make sure people come back safe, but there is no such thing as a risk-free climb. I have lost an unbelievable amount of weight, my voice has almost gone, the feeling in the ends of my fingers suggest I have the early stages of frostbite. It's taken its toll on my body and it will take Bonita a little while to recover."

Regarding the "purist" comment, I don't cut corners with my climbing. I never have. I enjoy the process of discovery (self and otherwise), and if I felt I wasn't capable of tackling a particular climb - regardless of grade - without support, then I wouldn't do it; it wouldn't even enter my head to employ others to help. The fact that you see this as being "purist" is in itself revealing. I see it as simply climbing.
 Offwidth 05 Jun 2011
In reply to ChrisHolloway1:

The more I see on guided Himalayan 8000's the more uncertain about it I become. The efforts and experiences are obviously mainly positive and the income to the areas and host countries is high. However the risks to clients, guides and sherpas is always very high and this is for an activity where the clients are mainly slowly jumaring themselves to the top and often unable to assist usefuly if things go wrong. The environmental damage is high and some of the commercialisation stinks.

Its fair enough that top climbers shouldn't take offence at lesser acheivement in most situations, but this business (it is a business) puts a lot of lives on the line and I think its only fair that clients should have a higher minimum standard than currently as 'climbers in their own right'. I wonder how many of us would do the sherpa's jobs with the huge risks involved, let alone with extra time and effort in the danger zones due to the 'babysitting' they sometimes have to do?

Before I leave I'd like to congratulate Anselm for helping save someone. I dont know him but from the supporting posts he clearly was a lot better prepared than some clients.
 Dominion 05 Jun 2011
In reply to FreshSlate:

> Why'd it even cross your mind? Bizarre. Guess it's another one for your holiday snaps collection.

Maybe he thought "Why the f*ck has she been left to die like that, after everything that's gone on already? No one will ever believe it."

2 seconds, click, then go to help.

You should be questioning why someone was left face down, head pointing downslope by people who were supposedly assisting her down to the next camp. She'd be dead if Anselm and Ted hadn't stayed behind, and come along later.
 ChrisHolloway1 05 Jun 2011
In reply to Tom Knowles: Let me just ask you a question then Tom, what happens if what you (and others) suggest happens, and the volume of adventure tourism at Everest and other commercial peaks drops. What happens to all the Sherpa's who rely on tourism of these areas for income. Lets face it you are right, too many people attempt Everest and other 8000m peaks who simply aren't prepared (for the record I don't believe Anselm wasn't one of these). However the flip side of this is the income and jobs created for sherpa's. Yes many rich people do pay through the nose to go to Everest and others, however that provides sherpa's with a means of income otherwise unavailable. Sherpa's are free to decline the work if they feel the clients are suitably well trained surely?


I'm not arguing with you regarding building experience before attempting big peaks, my comment about you being a purist came from your apparent opinion that 8000m peaks shouldn't be climbed with sherpa's, fixed ropes and oxygen.

I stand by my comment regarding Nicks blog and his disregard for the achievements of others, very out of order to slate someone like that.

And this isn't a personal attack on you or others, your arguements are well reasoned, and I apologise if you feel I was overly aggresive toward you.
 winhill 05 Jun 2011
In reply to Dominion:
>
> You should be questioning why someone was left face down, head pointing downslope by people who were supposedly assisting her down to the next camp.

I didn't read where it said what happened when they left her?

Did they arrange her in this fashion before leaving?

Was she conscious when they left her?

What was said when they left?

 winhill 05 Jun 2011
In reply to UKC Articles:

Has this link to an interview with the helicopter pilot, Simone Moro, already been posted?

http://www.planetmountain.com/english/News/shownews1.lasso?l=2&keyid=38...
 jon 05 Jun 2011
In reply to winhill:

It was linked to the news story. He is certainly one good guy I reckon. Deserves a lot of thanks from a lot of people.
 jimmyjames1985 05 Jun 2011
In reply to Tom Knowles: Tom, I know that you dont HAVE to have a convoy of support for 8000 m expeditions, but im just stating that for the vast majority of people it's the most reasonable way to do it. Surely thats not ignorance (as you delicatley called it), its a fact, even you cant deny that! 99.99% of us dont have 6 months off a year or 30 grands worth of equipment to do these projects.

And i also said in my post that people shouldnt be left to account if the shi* hits the fan. But helping a fellow human in need should always be the priority.

I'm not saying the commercial way is the best way to do it btw, i agree with you in some ways. From what i've read it is a bit of a circus, and perhaps some expeditons are a bit laissez faire with who they allow to join, but certainly not all.

On another note about commercial expeditions. The fatality rate on the 8000 m mountains has dropped substatially over the years. I'm sure part of this is down to commercial expeditions having the logisitics/ man power in place to 1) better prepare groups whilst climbing and 2)help people when it all goes wrong.

Like i say im no expert by any means. But i dont see how what i said is ignorant in any way..
 nb 05 Jun 2011
In reply to Mr Lopez:

>
> Any of the other Bullock's haters would like to point out what is so unreasonable about his comments i posted above? Just because i quite agree with him, so would be nice to know where i'm going wrong.

I'm not a Bullock hater, in fact he's a good mate and I like him a lot (awwww!), but he’s got a different set of norms from most people and therefore doesn't always talk ‘sense’, at least not of the ‘common’ variety. Since you ask, here are a few examples of Bullock’s unreasonableness in the paragraphs you quote:

1) “Do you really think by paying some money to a person they should die or risk their lives more than they already have?”

According to Anselm’s account the Sherpas would not have been risking their lives in trying to get Cleo Weidlich off the mountain as, in any case, they were engaged in bringing the gear down. If Anselm’s account is true then their behaviour was extremely unprofessional, irrespective of whether they live in a poor or a rich country. Every fellow climber has a responsibility to their partner, but this is heightened when guiding because guides accept that their clients may not have the skills or the experience to look after themselves on their own. If you’re not prepared to accept that, and put in the extra effort when things go wrong, then you should do another job.

2) “if Cleo Weidlich or you had gained the experience that you both should have gained in the first place, you could possibly get yourself out of trouble and then would not have to rely on other human beings to do it for you”

This to the man that saved her life by getting her down to an altitude from where she could be rescued after her guides had abandoned her!

3) “And if you did die up there when on your own, well hello, its a big bad game this mountaineering lark.”

Unnecessarily condescending.

4) “I use the term climb loosely as jumaring fixed ropes is not climbing”

You can use ‘climb’ for a flight of stairs never mind an ascent of Kanchenjunga.

5) “No mountain guide or a Sherpa can guide an 8000 metre mountain when the weather comes in”

Untrue. Anatoli Boukreev is an extreme example but there are plenty of others, including Sherpas.

6) “hopefully Mr Murphy will do the same and his attitude…will be a little more forgiving”

Considering Anselm’s account of the incidents, I personally found him to be very forgiving. In his account he systematically tries to understand the reasons behind the Sherpas' actions. Seems the Sherpas might even have got a bonus at the end of the day! Not sure I’d have been quite as forgiving in the circumstances

7) Not in your quoted paragraphs, but another thing that surprised me was Nick’s idea that everybody should go through the “usual and accepted way” of preparing for the Himalayas - Wales, Scotland, Alps...etc. Where would the human race be today if everybody went about things in the usual and accepted way? Ueli Steck* would’ve packed his bags and gone home after his first route of the season for a start, ‘coz that’s the ‘usual and accepted way’ of climbing in the Himalayas. How do Sherpas manage to get their Welsh winter experience? How is British rock-climbing experience relevant on Kanchenjunga (‘Watch me here, I’m really going for it this time!’)?

To be honest, I have difficulty understanding how people can get so upset about a man choosing to spend his holidays climbing an 8000m peak, even if it is with bottled oxygen and fixed ropes. Where is the problem? There’s plenty of room out there for everyone. Other people spend their holidays doing child prostitution ffs!

*Note that Ueli seems to have only kind words to say about the ‘punters’ he jogged past this spring. A true gent.

Neil
 Dominion 05 Jun 2011
In reply to winhill:

> I didn't read where it said what happened when they left her?
>
> Did they arrange her in this fashion before leaving?
>
> Was she conscious when they left her?
>
> What was said when they left?

The description of how she was found face down on a slope is in the paragraph above the photo of how she was found in the article - the photo that r0x0r.wolfo seems to think is some sort of crime against humanity to have taken - some "five minutes descent" from where Anselm and Ted were left to pack their gear together to follow her and the sherpas down...

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=3785

Of course, it's quite possible that she could have been left, then got up an fallen over herself, to end up in that position, but it just seems strange for her to have been left just 5 minutes from the camp above. And Ted and Anselm didn't seem to have too much difficulty in getting her up, and looking after her, and getting her descending again with a little bit of care and attention.

It does just seem that the sherpas just really couldn't be bothered. And yes, they were tired, and hungry and had been at altitude for a long period, and were carrying heavy loads, but it does just seem just a touch callous to be more concerned with getting the the equipment down, rather than helping an injured fellow human being...

Anyway, that's just the impression I got.


I just think that some of the criticisms of Topper/Anselm are ludicrous ie the loathing being directed at him for taking this photograph of her lying in the snow after being left to die, and for daring to criticise some of the sherpas, and for using oxygen.

He's taken time and effort to rescue someone from certain death when others could apparently not be bothered. And somehow some people see it as wrong for describing what happened as he saw it, for taking a photograph to illustrate what he saw happening, and for not doing a solo alpine ascent of Kanchenjunga in the first place.

All quite mad.
andy kirkpatrick 05 Jun 2011
fame + money + altitude + death + media + ego + rewards =

the higher you go - the bitterer it gets


 winhill 05 Jun 2011
In reply to Dominion:
> (In reply to winhill)
>
> The description of how she was found face down on a slope is in the paragraph above the photo of how she was found in the article
>
> Of course, it's quite possible that she could have been left, then got up an fallen over herself, to end up in that position, but it just seems strange for her to have been left just 5 minutes from the camp above. And Ted and Anselm didn't seem to have too much difficulty in getting her up, and looking after her, and getting her descending again with a little bit of care and attention.

But it's nearly two hours later, so what transpired in the mean time?

> You should be questioning why someone was left face down, head pointing downslope by people who were supposedly assisting her down to the next camp.

No, you should be questioning whether someone was left face down, head pointing downslope by people who were supposedly assisting her down to the next camp.

Read the comments on this link, and again the interview with the pilot.

http://climbing.about.com/b/2011/05/31/american-climber-abandoned-to-die-by...

In the OP one of the Sherpas is describing as leaving, not to be seen again, was he ill or deficient?

Another is described as behaving 'strangely', was he ill or deficient? What problems did he have (he was earlier described as having cracked) and why was it more important for him to stay with the client than get himself down? Why isn't this even considered in the account in the OP?

I'm trying desperately to avoid the car crash here but it don't look good. I'd be very interested in Ted's version. I'd be even more interested in the Mingma's.
 birdie num num 05 Jun 2011
In reply to andy kirkpatrick:
Seven words that sum up some of the fountain of shit that has been spouted on this thread. HACE can affect anybody, experienced or not. It was illness, not a lack of self reliance or fitness for the undertaking that caused this womans debilitation. Not that it's even really relevant
Daithi O Murchu 05 Jun 2011
In reply to Topper Harley:

Anselm, i cant see where your liable for any criticism in any of all of this. As is obvious to everyone you did the right thing.

Perhaps the only thing you shouldnt have done is keep a blog.

Some life experiences are all the richer for not being shared.

good on ya.


 Hannes 05 Jun 2011
In reply to UKC Articles: Cleo has on her blog that she last year climbed four 8000m peaks, five with Kanch, her style may not have been pretty but experience of HA mountaineering I'd imagine she has, ironically enough, quite a bit more so than Bullock
 ScottMackenzie 05 Jun 2011
In reply to birdie num num:

>> HACE can affect anybody, experienced or not.

True - but you can be sure an experienced high altitude climber would have considered what the immediate plan was if that situation occurred at various points on the mountain AND they would have taken steps to limit the chance of it occurring into full blown HACE in the first place.

Where was the plan incase someone did get HACE? Sure accidents happen - BUT - who was monitoring her on the climb, likewise who was she monitoring? Where was her climbing partner? Was she alone? Had she considered what she would do if she got ill alone? Had she discussed it with the Sherpas? Anselm had a climbing partner, vastly increasing their level of safety. In a group you can ask each other - "How are you doing, where are you from, whats your address, hows your breathing, tell me you phone number" - its standard shit people need to do to look out for each other at altitude. Build risk aversion into the plan for the climb.

When you go it alone you're taking a huge personal risk (your choice), and putting the lives of others at risk too as a direct consequence of your actions.

I'm not saying people shouldn't help if they can but being put in the position to do so in the first place is a pretty poor show - especially at serious altitude.

She was bloody lucky that Anselm and his team-mate were there to save her life. Seems to me that situation occurred through poor planning on her part which ultimately led to the lives of others being put in danger to save her own.

 birdie num num 06 Jun 2011
In reply to Scott_M@c:
>
> She was bloody lucky that Anselm and his team-mate were there to save her life. Seems to me that situation occurred through poor planning on her part which ultimately led to the lives of others being put in danger to save her own.

I take it that your volley of questions were rhetorical. As you say, it's a good job Anselm and his team mate had the courage to get her off safely.
The rest is speculation. And a bit of badness.
 ScottMackenzie 06 Jun 2011
In reply to Hannes:

Thats a cracking physical effort for sure, but if everything goes to plan and you get to the top each time, you don't really gain that much experience - especially if the whole route is fixed (I don't know if it was or not for her 4 climbs).

Experience to me is how you look after yourself when the shit hits the fan, or more so how you avoid the shit hitting the fan in the first place through the experience of all those times in the past when the shit hit the fan!

I climbed and summited 4 easy six thousanders in Peru about 5 years ago. Hard physical effort at the time but didn't mean I was an experienced 6000m climber at the end of it. Getting caught out on a storm in the col du midi, lost in a whiteout for 6 hours a few years ago taught me far more experience than those 4 summits.
 ScottMackenzie 06 Jun 2011
In reply to birdie num num:

>> I take it that your volley of questions were rhetorical

Sorry I was getting a bit animated!
 FreshSlate 06 Jun 2011
In reply to Dominion:
> (In reply to winhill)
>
> [...]
>
> The description of how she was found face down on a slope is in the paragraph above the photo of how she was found in the article - the photo that r0x0r.wolfo seems to think is some sort of crime against humanity to have taken - some "five minutes descent" from where Anselm and Ted were left to pack their gear together to follow her and the sherpas down...

I once came across a man head cut open bleeding in the street, he was bad enough to have died several days later in hospital. I didn't take a picture, absolute last thing on my mind and I wouldn't put one on the net alive or dead either.

It's not like taking a picture of your cars smashed window to show the police. There's never any reason to delay messing about with your camera whether it be 10 seconds or 10 minutes. Help the f*cking person first and point fingers later.
 Kemics 06 Jun 2011
In reply to FreshSlate:

Was this street situated on a mountain at 8000 meters?

I spilt my cup of tea this morning, i just rushed and cleaned it up, i didn't think to stop and take any pitures. But then I guess the circumanstances vary hugely.

Put it like this, if she was already dead, or going to be dead in 10 seconds. What possible help could he have been? If taking a picture would be eating into 'rescue time' she'd be gone before he could of reached her. It's not like he's going to bounding down the slope is it? It's acutally pretty hard to sprint at 8000 meters despite what they show in the documentary Vertical Limit. Amazingly heroism in these situtions isn't a daring running rescue, it's usually a very slow plod where sheer stubborn and relentless force of will pushes through the point where most people would just give up. Might not be dramatic but it's nonetheless an inspirational effort that is worthy of every acolade.

Seriously, think about it, whether he stops to take the picture of not, the situation will always be the same. So why not take it, it's just one peice of a puzzle that might help someone. Worst case it'll make a great facebook profile picture.
 Dave 88 06 Jun 2011
In reply to Kemics:

>Worst case it'll make a great facebook profile picture.

Isn't that BEST case?!

Anyway, whatever way you cut it, whatever actually happened with the Sherpas, however experienced or inexperienced Anselm is, the simple fact is that he and his partner saved someones life. That's an amazing thing to do at your local Morrisons let alone at 8000 metres.

Sterling effort sir.

Just to clarify, I have little experience at either Morrisons or at 8000m!

 GrahamD 06 Jun 2011
In reply to FreshSlate:

> It's not like taking a picture of your cars smashed window to show the police. There's never any reason to delay messing about with your camera whether it be 10 seconds or 10 minutes. Help the f*cking person first and point fingers later.

Quite possible he needed to stop in any case for a breather ? Moving more than 20 paces and thinking at 8000m is, by all accounts, not very easy.
 Topper Harley 06 Jun 2011
In reply to winhill:


> But it's nearly two hours later, so what transpired in the mean time?
We probably won't ever know. Cleo doesn't seem to remember.

>I'd be very interested in Ted's version. I'd be even more interested in the Mingma's.

Ted read through my account before I posted it and he agreed that it was accurate, so I guess it can be considered his version too.

I would also like to hear what Mingma has to say.
 FreshSlate 06 Jun 2011
In reply to Kemics:
> (In reply to r0x0r.wolfo)
>
> Was this street situated on a mountain at 8000 meters?
>
> I spilt my cup of tea this morning, i just rushed and cleaned it up, i didn't think to stop and take any pitures. But then I guess the circumanstances vary hugely.

This is like the example someone's car being smashed i gave, I don't care what you do, it doesn't matter that much, it's not that important. Why is someones life less important because they're at 8000, 7000, 6000 meteres? What are you getting at here? Because she's on a mountaineering holiday her life is expendable?

> Put it like this, if she was already dead, or going to be dead in 10 seconds. What possible help could he have been? If taking a picture would be eating into 'rescue time' she'd be gone before he could of reached her. It's not like he's going to bounding down the slope is it? It's acutally pretty hard to sprint at 8000 meters despite what they show in the documentary Vertical Limit. Amazingly heroism in these situtions isn't a daring running rescue, it's usually a very slow plod where sheer stubborn and relentless force of will pushes through the point where most people would just give up. Might not be dramatic but it's nonetheless an inspirational effort that is worthy of every acolade.

In what way did the camera assist the rescue again? The flash wake her up? It just boggles the mind, I'm not talking from some utilitarian point of view, it's not simply a measurement of how much time he could afford to dick about before going to her. Imagine if she were dead? Would that picture still be posted on his blog? My main thing, and I'm not the only one who has mentioned that it is just off. Oh well, look on the bright side, he didn't miss out on a sumit, may get further sponsoring and got his own back on the nameless sherpas that charged him 400$ for some 02.

> Worst case it'll make a great facebook profile picture.
Right.

 TonyG 06 Jun 2011
In reply to FreshSlate:

> In what way did the camera assist the rescue again?

Why don't you just ask the man himself, you bell end... He's literally sat right next to you in this 'room'...

You're making an ignorant ass of yourself, and you ought to stop now.
 jkarran 06 Jun 2011
In reply to Tom Knowles:

> Under your Everest and Cho Oyu tags, as well as your Kanch tag, there's no mention of supplementary oxygen. That alone makes it "less than full disclosure". Perhaps you yourself have assumed that all 8000m peaks can only be climbed with the use of supplementary oxygen?

Since it's still the norm your rant seems pretty bizarre.

> Personally, now that we're well into the 21st century, I assume that all 8000m peaks should be tackled without bottled oxygen. Can I ask why you didn't attempt these peaks without it? What do you think of someone who attempts 8000m peaks without supplementary oxygen, even though there is a high chance that he/she won't reach the summit?

Surely that depends what an individual is going there for. If you're going for your chance in a lifetime to stand on top of the world you'd be a fool not to stack the odds in your favour. If you're on your 10th season in the greater ranges and trying to explore the limits of your endurance/skill/courage and luck on an alpine style ascent then bottled oxygen is likely to be an encumbrance.

A lot of people are coming across pretty poorly on this thread, hardly surprising since most of us are armchair pebble wrestlers who don't have the first idea what we're on about.

Good on Anselm for doing what he could for someone in distress. I'm sure everyone involved has learned something valuable from the event.

jk
 FreshSlate 06 Jun 2011
In reply to TonyG:
> (In reply to r0x0r.wolfo)
>
> [...]
>
> Why don't you just ask the man himself, you bell end... He's literally sat right next to you in this 'room'...
>
> You're making an ignorant ass of yourself, and you ought to stop now.

Good logical, thought out argument. Wait.... 'Oh you're an ass and a bellend'
 JuneBob 06 Jun 2011
In reply to FreshSlate:
I'm a little confused by your hostility about this picture thing. Have you ever saved anyone's life or been in such a situation?

In my experience I could not have predicted how I was going to react, all sorts of shit was going through my head as I approached my mate lying unconcious (or dead for all I knew). I made some dumb decisions that I would never have made if I was sat at home behind a computer imagining a similar hypothetical situation while drinking a cup of tea. In the end it worked out ok, and he pretty much recovered from some severe injuries.

As it was I didn't take a picture, but the general consensus all round was that I probably should've as my mate would've liked one of him being winched up to the heli, and one to show the drop to prove how far it was!
Tigermoth 07 Jun 2011
r0x0r,

You are what is worst in men.
 ChrisHolloway1 07 Jun 2011
In reply to FreshSlate: Funny how it's always the anonymous, profileless ones that act like muppets on here...
 FreshSlate 07 Jun 2011
In reply to JuneBob:
> (In reply to r0x0r.wolfo)
> I'm a little confused by your hostility about this picture thing. Have you ever saved anyone's life or been in such a situation?

I've been in situations where I've been more concerned with someone's life than ANYTHING else (not even my blog). Yes. That's probably why I find it so perplexing.

> In my experience I could not have predicted how I was going to react, all sorts of shit was going through my head as I approached my mate lying unconcious (or dead for all I knew). I made some dumb decisions that I would never have made if I was sat at home behind a computer imagining a similar hypothetical situation while drinking a cup of tea. In the end it worked out ok, and he pretty much recovered from some severe injuries.
>
> As it was I didn't take a picture, but the general consensus all round was that I probably should've as my mate would've liked one of him being winched up to the heli, and one to show the drop to prove how far it was!

What was your dumb action? As your friend is being taken to safety? Yeah, a much better time to take a picture than of someones corpse or unconcious body before reaching them. Hmmm, as I've gotten the 'you wern't there' argument a few times...

Premise
1) You were not there
2) If you were not there you are not allowed to pass judgement
Conclusion: You are not allowed to pass judgement.

These can be expanded slightly. I.E, you should have suitable experience of such a event to pass judgement, such experience is only gained through being there. So as everyone is sat (or stood possibly) behind computer screens having not personally wittnessed the event then surely all our opinions are invalid, and not just the ones you don't agree with?

@Chrisholloway

This is a rather amusing comment coming below the one that says "r0x0r, You are what is worst in men." from a newly signed up, only ever posted once (that comment) user. Nevermind that one though.
 JuneBob 07 Jun 2011
In reply to FreshSlate:
> What was your dumb action?
Ha! As if I'm going to say after this thread!

> So as everyone is sat (or stood possibly) behind computer screens having not personally wittnessed the event then surely all our opinions are invalid, and not just the ones you don't agree with?
I don't necessarily disagree with your opinion, I just think you're being overly critical.
 ChrisHolloway1 08 Jun 2011
In reply to FreshSlate: Funnily enough that comment was aimed at both of you, hence why it appeared underneath the comment you refer to, but in reply to you.
 radson 10 Jun 2011
Ansel, just read Bullock's blog and you Ansel have my full support.

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