UKC

So you arrive at a belay, place two or three bomb proof wires, and clip into them with the rope.

Do you use a snap gate or a screw gate on each wire?

Many years ago I was taught (by a guide) to use a single snap gate on each wire , but a friend pointed out to me today that this is not considered best practice.

A quick look in my copy of Hill and Johnston confirms that he's right.

I'm still not convinced that I should start carrying 3 extra screw gates, anybody got an opinion?

In reply to Oceanic:

In those many years, how many times has the rope worked its way out of one of your snap gates?

In reply to Oceanic:
"anybody got an opinion?"

Here on UKC? LOL.

In reply to Oceanic:

I would take about two extra screw gates just in case you're in a position where the gate can be pushed open.

That said, I'm also one for using snap gates a lot of the time. I even clovehitch onto DMM phantoms but you have to be careful that the knot isn't going to catch on the gate.

In reply to Oceanic:
Num Num's opinion is that there will be many different opinions on this. Num Num uses a mixture of what ever ironwork he has with him. And doesn't worry about it if it's equalised and in tension.

In reply to birdie num num:

That's a disapointingly sensible answer from num num....

In reply to birdie num num:

Ignorance is bliss eh

In reply to Oceanic: The way I learned, and what I do, is to use a screwgate. If after a pitch I have insufficient with me then I'll use two snapgates instead of one screwgate with the gates on opposite sides.

T.

In reply to Oceanic:


yes, maybe, depends.

In reply to Oceanic:

That's correct. I always use either a snap gate or a screw gate

In reply to Oceanic: I tend to use what ever is to hand. Whether it be a quickdraw, or a spare snap/screw gate krab.

Most of my slings are on screwgates but 1 or 2 are on snap gates. I tend to use at least one screwgate on the gear, but my rule of thumb is to always use a screwgate when the rope is running through the krab, or when i need to attach the rope via a clove hitch multiple times etc.

Although, winter wise, screwgates are prone to freezing shut, so in that case, i use wiregates but doubled up. I.e gates open in opposite directions or one gate up, the other down.

In reply to Oceanic: Everyone I know uses screwgates or 2 snapgates in opposition but I don't see how 1 snap gate could come undone once it's under tension

Trust your own judgement!

In reply to Oceanic:

>"carrying 3 extra screw gates"

I think the trick is to leave three snap gates behind thus reducing the *extra* weight to negligible.

In reply to Oceanic: Because screw gates are so heavy these days i usually take apart a quick draw this way i can minimize the weight on my harness.

In reply to Oceanic:

I prefer to weave an equalised 15 point belay from my own pubic hair and clip into it with a rusty malion, but failing that, or if I'm in a hurry, I use screwgates if I've got them, or doubled up snap gates (both ends of a qd) if I haven't. Belays are static so gate type doesn't really matter.

In reply to Oceanic: Yes....

In reply to teflonpete:

That would be a sight to behold...

In reply to Oceanic:

The correct answer is to use your common sense regarding each belay situation. Unfortunately it appears that many climbers leave theirs behind when out climbing.

ALC

In reply to a lakeland climber: Agreed Mr ALC. However, the OP is trying not to have extra screwgates which rather reduces the options...that is what one thinks he is trying to say....

In reply to Oceanic:
This is how Num Num sees it:
If it's a huge worry, then carry the extra screw-gates.
If it's a weight issue, then many of us could shed the beer gut before we have to worry about the extra load of a screw-gate.

In reply to C-nunez: 41g is heavy? DMM Phantom/Wild Country Neon....

BR

In reply to Oceanic:

A single snap link should be sufficient for each anchor unless there is a risk that the gate could be opened.

I tend to use a screwgate (or 2 snaplinks back to back) to tie back to the harness because there is more risk there of a gate being pushed open by an adjacent knot or another piece of paraphenalia.

In reply to Oceanic:

I carry one or two screwgates. Sometimes they get placed on the route, sometimes on the belay. I certainly don't lose any sleep over having to use snap gates on a belay.

In reply to Oceanic: For a single pitch anchor I couldn't care less if it a locking one, if it multi pitch I might stick a locking one on my most bombproof piece of kit and snaps for the rest. As long as I expect even loading I wouldn't be too bothered about the snap gates being unsafe

Admittedly I rarely use the rope to build anchors as I almost always use a direct belay for my second and it'd sort of defeat the purpose of the direct belay

In reply to Oceanic:

If I have a screwgate spare for each, I use that. If not, I don't. If it's somewhere where frequent weighting and unweighting is likely and I can't see what's going on, I double-up on snaplinks if I don't have a screwgate spare.

In reply to Oceanic:

Snaplinks, not doubled. My only screwgate would be on my belay plate.

I'm always puzzled by the phrase "best practice". Who decides what is "best practice" and why should I pay any attention to them?

In reply to Oceanic:

If I have screwgates, I'll use 'em until I run out of screwgates. If (more likely) I've only got one or two becasue I've forgotten to bring 'em up, I'll continue using doubled and reversed snapgates until I run out of doubled snapgate possibilities. After that I'll use single snapgates, the rope itself, and/or anything that comes to hand, and use the kit I've got in what I feel is the best way for the situation and the anchors at hand.

Judgement being the key here.... No rule is absolute, but the point of rules or "best practice" is that you think about the situation before breaking them

In reply to Robert Durran:
Not sure I would tie back to a snaplink on my climbing knot, too much scope for the gate to open against the harness, knot or gear under sudden load. I prefer an HMS. Otherwise snaplinks or screwgates whatever I've got really.

In reply to birdie num num:

I always do that too.

In reply to birdie num num: You don't have to tie back to a snaplink at your harness. You could tie back to the rope loop with a figure 8 tied around the rope on the bight, or i know people who just use a couple of half hitches.

In reply to Oceanic:

You are right and they are right. Don't forget, you wear belt and braces, just in case one of them fails. At one time you would use just one on your waistline, then any you had for belays, nobody, nobody died from one cross loading one, nobody. Now with H+S everyone is paranoid, well I am with modern light gear, it is intuitively wrong to have wire gates because metal gates may 'flutter' when shock loaded. So what, at that moment it is being loaded along its spine, unless something very peculiar happens how is the rope going to come out? If it was a hook the rope should stay where it is, in the bottom of the hook.

In reply to AlH:
Yep, I sometimes do that too. But it's a bit cumbersome. Economical though, is that the Scottish way?

In reply to AlH:

If I wanted to save on snaplinks, I would do this, but it is more awkward to adjust than a clove hitch. A much overlooked method though.

In reply to Robert Durran: I agree, more awkward at first, but if you pull the bight through tight whilst pushing your hips towards the anchors, then tie your knot, then return your hips to a position where you are standing or sitting straight it comes out perfectly pretty much every time.

In reply to AlH:

Yes, though I was more thinking of the situation where you might want to change you position, say when your partner switches from seconding to leading through.

In reply to Robert Durran: Provided the gate can't be opened by coming into contact with the rock then snap links are fine. On a good belay set up the tension in the ropes will prevent the rope coming out. The risk is if the gate opens slightly by being pushed against the rock it reduces the strength of the biner by a third (or even more if it is loaded over an edge as well) - its is still unlikely that the rope will come out. I normally carry a couple of small screwies but happy to use snaps where appropriate.

I also normally tie the rope back to my rope loop with a figure of 8 saving need for big hms screwgate. I find it no problem to adjust this first time to the length I need... though it is harder to re-adjust than a clove hitch, but I find I very rarely have to do this if you think carefully about your set up.

In reply to Oceanic:
I just clip the gear to my belt loops with an accessory krab or one of those little keyrings. I only do it if I think there are UKC posters about though, as I prefer to do my trolling in real life: I'm practicing making noises like a hammer drill for my next trip to Froggatt.

I tend to use whatever comes to hand, if I felt there was a chance of the rope getting distrurbed I'd use opposed wiregates or a screwgate.

In reply to Oceanic:

I clip them with whatever I have to hand, usually that's quickdraws or snapgates.

What's 'best practice'? There's only really: 'good enough' and 'not good enough'.

jk

In reply to Oceanic:

A few regular slogs up to the NF on the Ben or Stob Coire nan Lochan win winter after 3 hours sleep and a stodgy breakfast coming back up again and you really take more consideration to what is on your rack and make more concessions.

In reply to Milesy:


More important to me, since I haven't done that slog for a while, is clutter. The more 'stuff' I carry the harder it is to sift through for the right piece when I'm actually climbing.

In reply to ssdd:


That sounds like a truly shit placement.

Someone should learn how to place karibiners such that the gates won't be levered open.

If there is that much force its quite possible to break the sleeve of a screwgate so the use of screwgates doesn't obveate the need for proper placement.

In reply to ssdd: Hard to believe. Was the think under 3pt loading? could be if the whole anchor system was equalised to the snap gate.

At one point the advise (PYB?) was use a locking Krab or back to back snap gates where failure of a single Krab would be catastrophic. That would be the belay device, If you attach the anchors to your rope loop with a clip, your daisy-chain, etc

In reply to Oceanic:

In all reality "best practise" is probably not to go climbing, as the act itself is clearly too risky.

however in answer to your question, just use whatever you've got to hand. Once you've built your belay, just have a good look at it. Imagine that you were seconding the route to arrive at the stance and see that belay, would you be mad because it's badly built. If the answer is no, then your belay is probably ok?

In reply to mlmatt:


Better still - imagine you have to abseil off it. Still happy with it ?

In reply to ssdd:

How could than possibly be, all krabs have a gate open strength of c7Kn, and presumably the gate wasn't being held open?

Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:


Fat climber ?