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Just when I was very vaguely beginning to wonder when I may see my cam again, a mysterious unmarked and unexpected parcel appeared with cam in it and a free krab for the sling. Great customer service, thanks DMM, sadly a rare thing these days in the UK.
In reply to nickinscottishmountains: Great customer service? From what I've heard they've hardly been quick at getting the new cams out to people. But if you are happy with a free krab, you're happy. I continue buying camalots though....
In reply to jimjimjim: A strange response. Who knows how many they had to redo/repair/replace? I have no reason to believe they were slow with dealing with the quantity they had to deal with and the issue they had to deal with. Yes, it took a while. But rather than seeing that as a reason to moan about how they should have got it back quicker, it reassures me that it has been done properly and that I had to wait my turn in the queue like everyone else. Both of those things seem entirely appropriate. I wouldn't want either of those things not happening.
In reply to jimjimjim: lol this is the 2nd time I've read a thread about DMM cams that contains you moaning about them, c'mon spill the beans, what is it you dislike about DMM so much?
In reply to jimjimjim: They're effectively refunding a product because of a fault which was not theirs. They are likely dealing with hundreds if not thousands of refunds which some are not needed. Their slowness is not because they're being lazy but because of sheer numbers of products being returned for such a comparatively small company.
Would you rather people deal with missing a single piece of gear for a few weeks at best or losing their lives? No matter the size of the company they wouldn't be able to handle recalls of this size within a week or two.
Would you rather people deal with missing a single piece of gear for a few weeks at best or losing their lives? No matter the size of the company they wouldn't be able to handle recalls of this size within a week or two.
In reply to And Climb: It's been more than a few weeks mate...Are we saying that absolutely no blame can be attributed to dmm on this matter?
In reply to jimjimjim:
My experience with DMM has been nothing but brilliant service.
Yes I had to send my cam back to be sorted. My cam was turned around in 3 weeks and came back with a new sling and crab.
I also sent my torque nuts back as the slings where a bit tight to extend and tatty looking and although they where well over a year old they sent me a brand new set of torque nuts no questions asked.
I wonder if the same thing happened with my Camalots and some BD hexes would Black Diamond of fared any better?
No offense to Black Diamond but I am unsure.
cheers
G
My experience with DMM has been nothing but brilliant service.
Yes I had to send my cam back to be sorted. My cam was turned around in 3 weeks and came back with a new sling and crab.
I also sent my torque nuts back as the slings where a bit tight to extend and tatty looking and although they where well over a year old they sent me a brand new set of torque nuts no questions asked.
I wonder if the same thing happened with my Camalots and some BD hexes would Black Diamond of fared any better?
No offense to Black Diamond but I am unsure.
cheers
G
In reply to nickinscottishmountains: I'm a bit unsure whether i'm pleased with the service, or unhappy.
I recieved no confirmation that they'd recieved my size 4 (despite being told I'd get sent a confirmation email), leading me to believe Royal Fail had managed to lose something again. However, when I emailed them asking about it, they replied the next day, which is a good thing I suppose. On the other hand, they'd already had it for a week and they said it would not be sent out for another 2 weeks!
This wasn't all that long ago, so it's not like I sent my cam in right at the start of the recall, when I assume most other people sent theirs in, so surely the turnaround should be a bit quicker than 3 weeks?!
And surely some blame has to be taken by DMM, it may not have been something they had control of, but surely it's their responsibility to ensure the materials they use are up to the job.
I recieved no confirmation that they'd recieved my size 4 (despite being told I'd get sent a confirmation email), leading me to believe Royal Fail had managed to lose something again. However, when I emailed them asking about it, they replied the next day, which is a good thing I suppose. On the other hand, they'd already had it for a week and they said it would not be sent out for another 2 weeks!
This wasn't all that long ago, so it's not like I sent my cam in right at the start of the recall, when I assume most other people sent theirs in, so surely the turnaround should be a bit quicker than 3 weeks?!
And surely some blame has to be taken by DMM, it may not have been something they had control of, but surely it's their responsibility to ensure the materials they use are up to the job.
It took 2 weeks for me and I got a confirmation email.
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
I was happy too, needed a carabiner for that cam!
Cheers DMM
Chris
I was happy too, needed a carabiner for that cam!
Cheers DMM
Chris
In reply to nickinscottishmountains: I subscribed to Climber magazine a month or two ago taking advantage of the "Free DMM Dragon cam" offer. Still waiting for it, this sheds some light on the situation though, thanks
In reply to nickinscottishmountains: I was happy with my free crab. Best one on my rack looking at buying a few more for my other cams.
In reply to jimjimjim:
I'm guessing you probably have no idea of what is involved in manufacturing stuff
> (In reply to And Climb) It's been more than a few weeks mate...Are we saying that absolutely no blame can be attributed to dmm on this matter?
I'm guessing you probably have no idea of what is involved in manufacturing stuff
In reply to woolsack: And your point is...
In reply to jimjimjim:
Good grief.
Are some people thankful they live in the developed world and can climb, buy anything they want. There's no big deal about DMM cams and replacements is there, or am I really missing out on something important here? Yes DMM are small, and peoples expectations are LARGE
LOL at this thread.
Good grief.
Are some people thankful they live in the developed world and can climb, buy anything they want. There's no big deal about DMM cams and replacements is there, or am I really missing out on something important here? Yes DMM are small, and peoples expectations are LARGE
LOL at this thread.
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
It is the second set of cams that have had to be recalled though. I was weary after the first cams got recalled and chose the Camalots instead.
The only DMM product I ever bought (my first harness) had to be returned after a few months use because the outer (cosmetic?) layer of material over one of the tie-in points had worn down. Someone I climb with who uses the same harness has the same problem so it's not a one off.
Now the after service was good, someone (Simon I think) from DMM dealt with my quickly and posted me out a new harness and sent me a fancy keyring and stickers too but to be honest, I'd rather have had my postage refunded. I'm guessing some of the people returning their cams would rather have their postage money refunded than a free biner?
It also makes me think that they haven't got the quality control procedures in place (speculation) to spot things like poor quality metal and poor fabrics before they are used. Happy to be corrected but where I used to work (GE), raw materials had to pass thourough inspection and I'd expect standards to be even higher with safety products like DMM produce.
It is the second set of cams that have had to be recalled though. I was weary after the first cams got recalled and chose the Camalots instead.
The only DMM product I ever bought (my first harness) had to be returned after a few months use because the outer (cosmetic?) layer of material over one of the tie-in points had worn down. Someone I climb with who uses the same harness has the same problem so it's not a one off.
Now the after service was good, someone (Simon I think) from DMM dealt with my quickly and posted me out a new harness and sent me a fancy keyring and stickers too but to be honest, I'd rather have had my postage refunded. I'm guessing some of the people returning their cams would rather have their postage money refunded than a free biner?
It also makes me think that they haven't got the quality control procedures in place (speculation) to spot things like poor quality metal and poor fabrics before they are used. Happy to be corrected but where I used to work (GE), raw materials had to pass thourough inspection and I'd expect standards to be even higher with safety products like DMM produce.
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
After 3 months of not getting my cam back I got in touch with DMM to find they had lost my size 4 dragon.
Next morning though I got a parcel with a shiny new size 4, a free snapgate and a free revolver krab too to say sorry.
Can't really criticise their customer service.
After 3 months of not getting my cam back I got in touch with DMM to find they had lost my size 4 dragon.
Next morning though I got a parcel with a shiny new size 4, a free snapgate and a free revolver krab too to say sorry.
Can't really criticise their customer service.
In reply to JimboWizbo: me too, stupidly I chose to go for the size 4 even knowing of the issues, I didn't think at the time. I think it's good that they seem to be honouring their repairs over sending out new ones.
In reply to jimjimjim:
As I understand it, DMM took a shipment of aluminium bar which was incorrectly heat treated. They had no way of knowing this, despite it passing whatever tests they do (guessing hardness, young's modulus, strength) until cracks started to appear months down the line.
Their solution was to design a completely new hot forged part and get it ready for large scale production in a very short space of time. By forging the part themselves rather than CNCing from bought in bar, DMM control the heat treatment and can ensure no cracking happens.
I've not been affected personally but I think that this cam recall has been handled very well, DMM have been completely open about it and have posted regular updates on their website and on this board.
> (In reply to And Climb) It's been more than a few weeks mate...Are we saying that absolutely no blame can be attributed to dmm on this matter?
As I understand it, DMM took a shipment of aluminium bar which was incorrectly heat treated. They had no way of knowing this, despite it passing whatever tests they do (guessing hardness, young's modulus, strength) until cracks started to appear months down the line.
Their solution was to design a completely new hot forged part and get it ready for large scale production in a very short space of time. By forging the part themselves rather than CNCing from bought in bar, DMM control the heat treatment and can ensure no cracking happens.
I've not been affected personally but I think that this cam recall has been handled very well, DMM have been completely open about it and have posted regular updates on their website and on this board.
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
For those on this thread that are interested, there's a video about the design and manufacture of Dragon Cams at youtube.com/watch?v=U-C21qAwLQQ& - also has a bit about the history of cams, too
||-)
For those on this thread that are interested, there's a video about the design and manufacture of Dragon Cams at youtube.com/watch?v=U-C21qAwLQQ& - also has a bit about the history of cams, too
||-)
In reply to Jimbo C: As i understand it that was the issue with the size 6 in the first recall, i dont think the reason for the fault in the 4 and 5s has been published/found.
personally im very impressed with how theyve handled the recall. I dont think the fact that theyve found a flaw in their design is a problem, if you run a gear company for long enough i think it is inevitable, it's how its then dealt with that really matters.
personally im very impressed with how theyve handled the recall. I dont think the fact that theyve found a flaw in their design is a problem, if you run a gear company for long enough i think it is inevitable, it's how its then dealt with that really matters.
In reply to jimjimjim:
You must be a great person to go for a drink with, do you always manage to turn a positive into a negative?
They had a big problem that they dealt with as well as they could, there has been several threads on here about it and I think apart from the having to wait a few weeks and a few missed e-mails everyone has got their gear back with a free krab. As did I. I think that's a brilliat effort.
I'm really happy with my DMM gear (cams, wallnuts, harness) and am glad there is still some manufacturing going on in this country.
You must be a great person to go for a drink with, do you always manage to turn a positive into a negative?
They had a big problem that they dealt with as well as they could, there has been several threads on here about it and I think apart from the having to wait a few weeks and a few missed e-mails everyone has got their gear back with a free krab. As did I. I think that's a brilliat effort.
I'm really happy with my DMM gear (cams, wallnuts, harness) and am glad there is still some manufacturing going on in this country.
In reply to Mike Nolan:
...I assume.....so surely....and surely....but surely....
Given the numbers of cams, some your suppositions may turn out to be false! The speed of return depnds on the quantity. Not everyone returned them early.
As for blame, yes, DMM accept the blame for this, they took responsibility for the materilas being faulty. No one is disputing that. Am not quite sure what your point is there.
> (In reply to nickinscottishmountains)>
> This wasn't all that long ago, so it's not like I sent my cam in right at the start of the recall, when I assume most other people sent theirs in, so surely the turnaround should be a bit quicker than 3 weeks?!
>
> And surely some blame has to be taken by DMM, it may not have been something they had control of, but surely it's their responsibility to ensure the materials they use are up to the job.
> This wasn't all that long ago, so it's not like I sent my cam in right at the start of the recall, when I assume most other people sent theirs in, so surely the turnaround should be a bit quicker than 3 weeks?!
>
> And surely some blame has to be taken by DMM, it may not have been something they had control of, but surely it's their responsibility to ensure the materials they use are up to the job.
...I assume.....so surely....and surely....but surely....
Given the numbers of cams, some your suppositions may turn out to be false! The speed of return depnds on the quantity. Not everyone returned them early.
As for blame, yes, DMM accept the blame for this, they took responsibility for the materilas being faulty. No one is disputing that. Am not quite sure what your point is there.
In reply to jimjimjim:
Great customer service. I've always found DMM to be quite helpful whenever there has been a problem. They seem to handle recalls very well for such a small company. I can only imagine the amount of camming units that they have had to deal with over the past few months as part of this recall.
You buy BD if you want, but for those who want a lighter, stronger camming unit, better designed to meet the needs of thier market, British Trad climbers, then by DMM and support a small company, a small town (Llanberis) and part of the British Economy.
If you have a grievance with DMM then maybe you should speak to them about rather than highjakcing a thread praising thier efforts and moaning on the net.
Good day to you sir.
Great customer service. I've always found DMM to be quite helpful whenever there has been a problem. They seem to handle recalls very well for such a small company. I can only imagine the amount of camming units that they have had to deal with over the past few months as part of this recall.
You buy BD if you want, but for those who want a lighter, stronger camming unit, better designed to meet the needs of thier market, British Trad climbers, then by DMM and support a small company, a small town (Llanberis) and part of the British Economy.
If you have a grievance with DMM then maybe you should speak to them about rather than highjakcing a thread praising thier efforts and moaning on the net.
Good day to you sir.
In reply to mlmatt: *Like*!
In reply to mlmatt:
Top comment!!
Top comment!!
In reply to mlmatt: i'll second that. good call.
In reply to mlmatt:
Thank you, and I'll take this opportunity to apologise for my spelling and grammer. Damn proof reading.
Thank you, and I'll take this opportunity to apologise for my spelling and grammer. Damn proof reading.
In reply to jimjimjim:
your unrealistic expectation on how long the manufacturing process takes
> (In reply to woolsack) And your point is...
your unrealistic expectation on how long the manufacturing process takes
In reply to nickinscottishmountains: I'm not quite sure why you decided to copy retain phrases from my message? Prick.
My comment about responsibility was ones at somebody who had said its not DMMs fault.
My comment about responsibility was ones at somebody who had said its not DMMs fault.
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
Unfortunately if you manufacture components for long enough things will go wrong at some point. No quality control will get past this.
DMM have been responsible in owning up and taking the correct course of action in dealing with the faulty cams. As well as going the extra mile by giving out free stuff to compensate. I don’t know of too many companies that do that.
Their response may not have been fast enough for some people but the general opinion is that they have done a good job. For such a small company dealing with so many recalls I personally think their response has been more than adequate.
If you compare with large and supposedly better organised companies (Toyota springs to mind) DMM performed very well. I don’t see car manufacturers handing out free spare tyres/full tanks of fuel to compensate for their cock-up’s.
Be glad we have world class manufacturers such as DMM in the UK. Support them as much as you can. But if you don’t want to support them, fine, just air your opinions in an appropriate manner i.e directly to DMM. A careless comment can be very damaging to such small companies in such niche markets.
Myth
Unfortunately if you manufacture components for long enough things will go wrong at some point. No quality control will get past this.
DMM have been responsible in owning up and taking the correct course of action in dealing with the faulty cams. As well as going the extra mile by giving out free stuff to compensate. I don’t know of too many companies that do that.
Their response may not have been fast enough for some people but the general opinion is that they have done a good job. For such a small company dealing with so many recalls I personally think their response has been more than adequate.
If you compare with large and supposedly better organised companies (Toyota springs to mind) DMM performed very well. I don’t see car manufacturers handing out free spare tyres/full tanks of fuel to compensate for their cock-up’s.
Be glad we have world class manufacturers such as DMM in the UK. Support them as much as you can. But if you don’t want to support them, fine, just air your opinions in an appropriate manner i.e directly to DMM. A careless comment can be very damaging to such small companies in such niche markets.
Myth
In reply to mlmatt:
I've found the DMM customer service to be excellent as well, and really like what they make - I don't agree with the "buy British" thing that comes up whenever they are praised on this forum though.
Isn't it more in DMM and their customers' interest if people buy (and are known to buy) their gear because they produce competitive products, rather than out of nationalist sentiment?
I've found the DMM customer service to be excellent as well, and really like what they make - I don't agree with the "buy British" thing that comes up whenever they are praised on this forum though.
Isn't it more in DMM and their customers' interest if people buy (and are known to buy) their gear because they produce competitive products, rather than out of nationalist sentiment?
In reply to Mike Nolan:
I hope your day improves!
All the best.
> (In reply to nickinscottishmountains) I'm not quite sure why you decided to copy retain phrases from my message? Prick.
>
Mate, calm down. I copied selected words to illustrate a point, that with a lot of assumptions made, perhaps in reality it is not quite as you think it is. If you disagree with my comment, that's cool, please just feel free to say so rather than just insulting me. This is a forum for discussion, not a forum for insulting people, and everyone else here has managed to keep it to discussion rather than insult.>
I hope your day improves!
All the best.
In reply to nickinscottishmountains: some context for the thread... i sent my cam to metolius for repair and they sent me a new one because that was quicker.
In reply to franksnb: Very interesting, thanks for posting that.
In reply to nickinscottishmountains: Well the way you wrote made it look like you were trying to take the piss or something. If you didn't mean it that way, then sorry for overreacting.
The only reason I'm slightly annoyed with DMM is because they made no contact with me and after already waiting 2 weeks (including the time it was in the post) they still told me it would be another 2 weeks before they sent it.
Fair enough, in general they've dealt with it pretty well. However, people were told the turnaround would be 'quicker' than the last lot. For your average climber, who has no idea how long these things take, almost a month seems a long time to wait.
The only reason I'm slightly annoyed with DMM is because they made no contact with me and after already waiting 2 weeks (including the time it was in the post) they still told me it would be another 2 weeks before they sent it.
Fair enough, in general they've dealt with it pretty well. However, people were told the turnaround would be 'quicker' than the last lot. For your average climber, who has no idea how long these things take, almost a month seems a long time to wait.
In reply to KeithAlexander:
I'll conceed it is really only a minor point. Buying British shouldn't be your reason for choosing one product over another, but it just happens in this case the product is question is by a British Manufacturer.
I now own a dragon cam as a replacement for an only friend 2 I sadly lost. Over the years I've used camalots, friends, dragons, HB quad cams, camp aircams, camp jet cams, old school solid stem jobs, even some rock+run cams. In my personal experience dragon cams offer the best design features for a British Trad climbing market, especially for the price which comes in cheaper than several other brands. This is the reason I'll support DMM, them being part of Britain is a bonus.
I'll conceed it is really only a minor point. Buying British shouldn't be your reason for choosing one product over another, but it just happens in this case the product is question is by a British Manufacturer.
I now own a dragon cam as a replacement for an only friend 2 I sadly lost. Over the years I've used camalots, friends, dragons, HB quad cams, camp aircams, camp jet cams, old school solid stem jobs, even some rock+run cams. In my personal experience dragon cams offer the best design features for a British Trad climbing market, especially for the price which comes in cheaper than several other brands. This is the reason I'll support DMM, them being part of Britain is a bonus.
In reply to nickinscottishmountains: Three weeks, I wish it took that but in reality it was three months. Tried emailing them but no reply and when I finally called them turns out they sent my cams to someone else with the same returns number, not great. At least they are sending me two new cams but since they'd been used a handful of weekends it wasn't a great help. Will see what is in the parcel before making my final judgement on their customer service.
In reply to Hannes:
Comments like this make me wonder whether rather than employing people to email and call customers to ensure that they know what's going on with backorders and returns we should just give out some free stuff. A krab must only cost DMM a couple of quid so it could easily work out cheaper than actually dealing with customers.
> Will see what is in the parcel before making my final judgement on their customer service.
Comments like this make me wonder whether rather than employing people to email and call customers to ensure that they know what's going on with backorders and returns we should just give out some free stuff. A krab must only cost DMM a couple of quid so it could easily work out cheaper than actually dealing with customers.
In reply to nickinscottishmountains: An example of why I think DMM customer service is excellent:
I contacted DMM (Simon Marsh) to ask about fitting clipper leashes to my DMM flys (I have the older version with the hollow rivets).
Simon not only explained how to do this but provided me with the fitting kits to do so.
I contacted DMM (Simon Marsh) to ask about fitting clipper leashes to my DMM flys (I have the older version with the hollow rivets).
Simon not only explained how to do this but provided me with the fitting kits to do so.
In reply to Lemony:
Isn't that exactly what they are doing?
I love DMM gear, I have always had great customer service from them and I love the company ethos, but I do think that this Dragon issue has dented confidence quite badly.
> (In reply to Hannes)
> [...]
>
> Comments like this make me wonder whether rather than employing people to email and call customers to ensure that they know what's going on with backorders and returns we should just give out some free stuff. A krab must only cost DMM a couple of quid so it could easily work out cheaper than actually dealing with customers.
> [...]
>
> Comments like this make me wonder whether rather than employing people to email and call customers to ensure that they know what's going on with backorders and returns we should just give out some free stuff. A krab must only cost DMM a couple of quid so it could easily work out cheaper than actually dealing with customers.
Isn't that exactly what they are doing?
I love DMM gear, I have always had great customer service from them and I love the company ethos, but I do think that this Dragon issue has dented confidence quite badly.
In reply to KeithAlexander:
True. But most of the manufacturers of climbing gear are top quality and hard to chose from. The buy british arguement comes in to play when all other things are even, with me anyway. I have a wide range of brands on my rack. But It does seem I favour DMM.
> (In reply to mlmatt)
.>
> Isn't it more in DMM and their customers' interest if people buy (and are known to buy) their gear because they produce competitive products, rather than out of nationalist sentiment?
> Isn't it more in DMM and their customers' interest if people buy (and are known to buy) their gear because they produce competitive products, rather than out of nationalist sentiment?
True. But most of the manufacturers of climbing gear are top quality and hard to chose from. The buy british arguement comes in to play when all other things are even, with me anyway. I have a wide range of brands on my rack. But It does seem I favour DMM.
In reply to franksnb:
I dont think its fair to compare a single cam repair against a recall. For DMM to have done the same would have meant throwing away thousands of otherwise perfectly serviceable cams, horrendously wasteful by any measure.
> (In reply to nickinscottishmountains) some context for the thread... i sent my cam to metolius for repair and they sent me a new one because that was quicker.
I dont think its fair to compare a single cam repair against a recall. For DMM to have done the same would have meant throwing away thousands of otherwise perfectly serviceable cams, horrendously wasteful by any measure.
In reply to remus:
They wouldn't throw them away - they'd send out replacements quickly and repair the originals to sell as seconds at their leisure. I suspect unused cams sent back by shops got replaced with new instantly, but they're probably repairing used ones as it's cheaper than my solution above.
> (In reply to franksnb)
> [...]
>
> I dont think its fair to compare a single cam repair against a recall. For DMM to have done the same would have meant throwing away thousands of otherwise perfectly serviceable cams, horrendously wasteful by any measure.
> [...]
>
> I dont think its fair to compare a single cam repair against a recall. For DMM to have done the same would have meant throwing away thousands of otherwise perfectly serviceable cams, horrendously wasteful by any measure.
They wouldn't throw them away - they'd send out replacements quickly and repair the originals to sell as seconds at their leisure. I suspect unused cams sent back by shops got replaced with new instantly, but they're probably repairing used ones as it's cheaper than my solution above.
In reply to Toerag: There is no way theyd be able to sell used cams, theres no way of verifying that they havent been abused in some manner.
Assume any new cams ordered recently will not have the same faults? Put an order in with DMM for a set of cams a few weeks ago.
In reply to lizzie789: Nope, the recall is 4 months old so no new cams will be affected.
In reply to remus: Thanks
In reply to Lemony:
To be fair their customer service was excellent before I got my cams back, I emailed them and they tried to sort out the returns by bringing them to one of their events but they weren't ready at that point. They could easily have done what petzl did with my axes and basically said here are your axes back after a month but we're not going to bother try and reimburse you in any way shape or form for the bother, at least DMM try to make an effort.
> Comments like this make me wonder whether rather than employing people to email and call customers to ensure that they know what's going on with backorders and returns we should just give out some free stuff. A krab must only cost DMM a couple of quid so it could easily work out cheaper than actually dealing with customers.
To be fair their customer service was excellent before I got my cams back, I emailed them and they tried to sort out the returns by bringing them to one of their events but they weren't ready at that point. They could easily have done what petzl did with my axes and basically said here are your axes back after a month but we're not going to bother try and reimburse you in any way shape or form for the bother, at least DMM try to make an effort.
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