UKC

Live and exclusive: we're fitting an external door right now. Due to opening irregurality we have a flush fit top and bottom of door but large spaces (approx 10 cm) at sides.

I understand windows and doors should be fixed at sides rather than top and bottom. In this case we can easily and securely fix top and bottom and then pack / fill sides as necessary. Essentially though the only fixing would be top and bottom.

I've had a quick look on the internet but can't find anything that says why top and bottom of a door / window can't be used for the fixing rather than sides. Anybody know why we 'must' fix at sides or can we just fix top and bottom only?

Thanks!

In reply to ksjs:

Well, the first bit of me says "get a wider door", but I guess that's not an option or you would have?

Can't see any particular reason against that plan, apart from the sides will be a long length with no solid fixing, so the catch will flex the door frame every time you open/close the door.

I'd be inclined to screw a piece of solid timber into each side of the door opening to fill the gap (or several short bits, if it's that irregular) and then screw the sides of the door into these. Then you can cover over the timber over.

In reply to ksjs:

10cm is huge! You need to build up the wall. Make it with whatever the original construction is - masonry/timber frame. Remember to put insulation and seal any remaining gap with foam sealant. The structural opening of the wall should be about 10mm wider on each side than your door frame. If you just pack a wide gap with block of timber without insulation, it will create a cold bridge.

A lot of doors and windows companies make size to fit. Usually they are not much more expensive than the stock sizes.

In reply to LastBoyScout: That's just packing though rather than fixing. Obviously however this (packing) will decrease any possible flex.

And yes, the gap exists due to irregularity in stone work and fact that door sits in a flared reveal (and it's easier to pack / fill around the door than build up new wall to reduce gap / make it non-flared).

In reply to jamestheyip: The door has been made to 'fit'!

In reply to ksjs:

If it doesn't conform with the measurements you provided, surely they have to make it again and get it right?

The better solution to packing it out is to make a little timber studwork 20cm x door height and fix this, then fix the door frame to it.

In reply to MHutch: It has been made to correct size. The door's depth and the flare / irregular stonework serve to create this gap, it's unavoidable without building out the wall and we chose not to. Also, it's not 10 cm both sides at all heights, it's generally much less. Forget about the gap issue!

The question is:

Can we fix top and bottom only rather than sides? Assuming obviously that subsequent packing and expanding foam serves to support door frame.

In reply to ksjs: Also, there's a laziness / economy issue at play here: where the gap is small enough, we would be able to fix into stone but this means hiring suitable drill / buying appropriate bit (as the rock is super hard) which we'd like to avoid if possible. We have necessary drill and bits for fixing into wooden lintel above and concrete floor below.

In reply to ksjs:

Normally, frames are fixed at the sides because the hinges (bearing the weight of the door) are on the sides. You might find that the frame twists and flexes if its only fixed top and bottom.

In reply to ksjs: What I'd do for fixing into irregular stonework is to rake out 3 or 4 joints in the stonework on either side with a plugging chisel and then cut wedges from 3X2 using a hand axe and then drive them into the joints. Cut them off plumb and square on either side and you can then screw or nail into the wedges. After backfilling with mortar, your frame should be held firmly in place. Fixing into the lintel and floor isn't a problem, just make sure you don't pull your frame out of square.
Hope that helps, themuppet

In reply to themuppet:

Neat solution.

In reply to themuppet:

The wedges should have a slight twist to them so they hold better. Traditionally they were cut using an axe since this was the easiest way of making them with a twist.

In reply to JSA: I still cut them using an axe, taking off the opposing corners from one end to create a bit of twist and tapering them to fit whatever gap you have in the stone.

In reply to themuppet:

Yeah, that's the one

I haven't cut one in years and the sharp axe was always just sat in the box just in case.

In reply to JSA: I did some just a few weeks ago fitting a frame in an outbuilding for some doors. Had to sharpen my axe first though as mrs muppet had been chopping kindling with it on a concrete floor!

In reply to themuppet:

Oh dear, you haven't got a log to cut them on then? nightmare

In reply to JSA: There are logs and offcuts of wood aplenty but despite being shown what to do many times I think mrs muppet just chooses not to use them to punish me for not cutting the kindling myself!

In reply to ksjs: As pointed out above as long as your frame is fitted square and level having your main fixings in the top and bottom shouldn't cause you a problem.

Wooden blocks wedged and amobolted to the stonework and then the door in turn fixed to those will add extra rigidity. If that's not possible expanding sudafoam adds a surprising amount of support!

To be honest I've fitted plenty of uPVC and a number of wooden doors just fixed top and bottom, so long as your frame stays where you want it you won't have a problem!

In reply to ksjs:
So you've got an irregular opening so you couldn't get the door to fill the entire gap?
You need to either build a full frame or make specific shaped spacers out of largish lumps of wood. You'd normally fit the door with a big screw through the frame and the spacer into the wall. With 10 cm gap you'll probably need to fix the spacer to the wall first then fix the door to the spacer because you probably won't have long enough fixings.

In reply to themuppet: Cheers, good post - thanks. We ended up belt and braces so hired suitable drill and fixed along sides. We figured best to do sides as it's a door and a heavy one and the sides are the long axis and obviously house the hinges. We did try the wooden wedge thing but the stones are laid really tightly and are quite square so no real space for wedging.

All packed, fixed, foamed, glazed and in place now with door opening and closing as intended.

Thanks all for replies / help.

In reply to ksjs:
Make a wider door

Get a strip of wood of similar wood to the door.
cut it slightly thicker/wider than you need
Glue and screw it to the door (hinge or lock side should not matter)
When glue set, remove screws get a plane and trim back the the correct dimensions.
Re hange & Add locks
For extra strength security, counterbore the previous screw holes and reinsert the screws under the flush & fill holes.
Paint/stain.