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Am I going to die?

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 The Norris 05 Jul 2011
... or kill anyone for that matter?

A month or so ago I visited a friend in the Peaks, who took me up a few classic grit routes (which I seconded) - a couple were multi pitch and I made a point of looking at what my mate had done to set up the belay at each pitch.

On the same trip I led a few single pitch routes at Windgather, with my mate scrambling up afterwards to show me how to create the anchor (I used 3 points, all connected to an HMS krab on my belay loop by a clove hitch to allow me to equalise the anchor). I'm fairly confident i know how to recreate this system at the top of most single pitch routes.

My question is probably difficult to answer, but I'm wondering whether it would be wise for me to start leading easy multi-pitch (diffs and Vdiffs) with an even less experienced second?

Perhaps this is a question that only I can really answer, so another way of putting it is... How experienced at ropework do you have to be to start leading multi pitch? Can you get away with knowing a few simple techniques like the one i described?

My main worry is that if i come across a belay stance i've not come across before, i wont know what to do. Do you just modify what i know already to overcome obstacles? As i've done very little trad, i dont really know what's out there!
 Andy Hardy 05 Jul 2011
In reply to snaresman:
> ... I visited a friend in the Peaks,

Careful, or Al Evans will be round!

... How experienced at ropework do you have to be to start leading multi pitch? Can you get away with knowing a few simple techniques like the one i described?
>
Yes, of course you can. Get to it.
 Tall Clare 05 Jul 2011
In reply to snaresman:

a lot of it is common sense, but yes, you can modify what you already know. You might find yourself having to attach to further-away anchors using slings, but if you can get hold of a book like the RockCliming+ Rockfax one it will explain all of this. You could always pitch a scramble for practice, though I'd make sure it wasn't a busy/popular one so you're not getting in people's ways.

One thing to think about with multipitch is that you've got to think about forces not just from below but from above. This might affect how and where you place your anchors.
 The New NickB 05 Jul 2011
In reply to snaresman:

Yes....








But hopefully not for at least 50 years. I am sure will be fine, sounds like you have the basic skills.
 Mike Nolan 05 Jul 2011
In reply to snaresman: A lot of multipitch routes at Diff and V Diff will have large ledges at belays, so it will just be like leading a few single pitch routes on top of eachother, with a bit more exposure.

Perhaps you could look out for some of these routes in order to gain a bit of experience?

Saying that though, my first multipitch included various hanging belays etc. As long as you can build a decent anchor, you'll be alright!
 GrahamD 05 Jul 2011
In reply to snaresman:

A surprising number of people have managed just go out and work it for themselves in the past so I'm sure you'll be fine.
 stonemaster 05 Jul 2011
In reply to snaresman: Yes..
OP The Norris 05 Jul 2011
In reply to snaresman:

I've read a couple of books and watched a few tutorial videos and its got to the stage where i'm not really learning anything new (apart from the crevass rescue stuff, but i can imagine i'll need that any time soon!)

Right! thanks for the encouragement, time to get the missus and get out to the crag!
 Tall Clare 05 Jul 2011
In reply to snaresman:

ah, the missus... I take it you've also familiarised yourself with the finer points of the 'crag domestic'?

OP The Norris 05 Jul 2011
In reply to Tall Clare:

Oh yes. We've suffered the stares from passing tourists, as I 'encourage' her up the wall!
 Harry Ellis 05 Jul 2011
In reply to snaresman: It sounds like you have the right attitude. If you are cautious enough to check you are not being reckless before you start, you are probably going to be cautious generally when doing it and that probably means you will be safe.

A few basic rules kept in mind will prevent disaster, for example
-Always make sure both people are attached to the system at all times
-As was mentioned above consider the direction of forces caused by both a leader fall and a second's slip.Alongside this consider the belayers position and orientation.
- When leading off a stance (rather than off the ground) always put a runner in ASAP to protect the belay (by preventing a factor two fall).

As long as you are, as you said, well within your grade and sensible as to the locations and style of route you choose, you will be fine. You may be slow to start with and you will no doubt get yourselves into tangles at times but you will have fun and learn a lot by teaching someone else what you know.
HTH

 muppetfilter 05 Jul 2011
In reply to snaresman: I am learning how to drive ... Should I get on the motorway without supervision .... You answer.
The learning curve in leading is very steep and the best attitude is one of not getting into a situation you can't get out of. What would your less experienced second do if you got hurt ? Learn different ways of setting up belays , how to safely abseil , how to navigate up a multi pitch route. How to cheat and aid up difficult bits , how to downclimb and all the other skills that go into multi pitch climbing. Gets lots more practice leading single pitch and see if you can get out with some more experienced climbers , try your local club or post a note at the wall .

Would you want to get cragfast and have to involve the mountain rescue ?
 CurlyStevo 05 Jul 2011
In reply to snaresman:
personally I'd get a good book and read the important sections prior to heading out.

This one is pretty much considered to be the best just now
http://www.rockrun.com/products/Rock-Climbing-Essential-Skills-%26-Techniqu...
 JLS 05 Jul 2011
In reply to snaresman:

>"the anchor (I used 3 points, all connected to an HMS krab on my belay loop by a clove hitch to allow me to equalise the anchor)."

Doing this style of set-up on a multipitch is going to be a bit of a faff to re-arrange if the second isn't going to lead the next pitch.

Perhaps some of the instructors here about might care to talk about the powerpoint method.
Tim Chappell 05 Jul 2011
In reply to snaresman:

I think you should get specific. Identify *exactly* what questions you need answering, and ask someone you trust to answer them.

As to leading-- well, you have to step off that diving-board some time
OP The Norris 05 Jul 2011
In reply to muppetfilter:

I'm probably looking in the wrong places, but I cant seem to find a great deal of easy single pitch near me (Bristol), hence me asking about multi pitch.

I've done a couple of the single pitch VD's at cheddar (bolted lower-offs tho so dont feel i'm really learning anything new) and one at goblin combe, and looked at the wye valley but it mostly seems to be multi pitch. Anyone got any recommendations on where else i should go? (bare in mind i'm a skint student so cant really afford long distance travel)

 sandy 05 Jul 2011
In reply to snaresman: I'm sure you could go out and have a good time.

However one thing you might want to try is doing a route with another pair of (more experienced) climbers. They could climb ahead of you (which would help you with route finding, when to stop and belay etc. all of which can be trickier then you may think!), be around when you arrive at a belay (and give advice on how to set things up if you are not sure), or they could climb behind you and perhaps give some help or encouragement to your second/wife...

I've done this a few times with people just getting into climbing and it can be great fun for everyone (and is how I started doing multi-pitch). You get to do a route, but with slightly less worry and help if you need it. The more experienced team gets a nice day out, and to see the route through the eyes of someone climbing for the first time (which can be a lot of fun), Everyone has someone to chat with on the belays and share the experience with in the pub at the end of the day. Don't worry about, being too slow or any of that, if the people you go with are anything like most climbers I know they will have a great time introducing you to the thing that they love (they may not want to do it every week, but now and again can be a great thing to do)... For many this is how it works in a club, but you don't have to join a club to do it...

Have fun...
 Harry Ellis 05 Jul 2011
In reply to snaresman: Good advice that, there are probably plenty of folk who would be happy to take you and your partner out, the climbing wall is probably a good place to start. As for single pitch venues , Forest of Dean?
Y
 Stefan Kruger 05 Jul 2011
In reply to snaresman:

The good thing about anchor setting and rope work is that much of it can be practiced either on the ground, or on easy, safe terrain. You would almost certainly be perfectly fine - many people learn this time-honoured way.

The principles are simple, but experience do count - climb a few multi pitches with a more experienced friend seconding you who can check your rigging.
 Route Adjuster 05 Jul 2011
In reply to snaresman:

Familiarise yourself with the concept of fall factors and make sure that when leaving belays you get used to placing gear ASAP to reduce the factor of a potential fall. A high factor fall onto a poorly arranged belay is not something you want to try.

Also get on lots of easy multi-pitch routes to gain some experience and confidence. As your confidence grows then try organising belays using less obvious ledges and gear placements, it isn't uncommon on harder multi-pitch routes to have to work hard or think creatively to get a good belay.
XXXX 05 Jul 2011
In reply to snaresman:

Yes you will die. You will die because you will be very slow and faffy, you will not have a good communication system in place, your partner will not know what you're doing and will get cold and grumpy on the belay below. Hours will pass that you won't even notice, but they will. By the time they reach the top they will have spent 6-7 hours standing cold and wet on ledges and only about 20 minutes climbing easy stuff with a rope that is either too tight or banging them in the face whilst they attempt to extract your gear. It will be at this point that they throw you off the cliff.

Enjoy.

 Emily_pipes 05 Jul 2011
In reply to Eric the Red:

Yes, that perfectly describes one of my first multipitch mountain routes. I was seconding and my pal who was the leader had only slightly more experience than I. I'm not sure who wanted to throw who off the cliff more. LOL.
OP The Norris 05 Jul 2011
In reply to Eric the Red:

Hehe I'm enjoying the completely contradictory replies! Gotta love internet forums!

As the missus is particularly grumpy when she is cold, I think i'll try and find somebody to take me out a few times before I go it alone!
 jkarran 05 Jul 2011
In reply to snaresman:

> Perhaps this is a question that only I can really answer, so another way of putting it is... How experienced at ropework do you have to be to start leading multi pitch? Can you get away with knowing a few simple techniques like the one i described?
> My main worry is that if i come across a belay stance i've not come across before, i wont know what to do. Do you just modify what i know already to overcome obstacles? As i've done very little trad, i dont really know what's out there!

If you understand what you're trying to achieve (as opposed to 'how to') and are confident using the limited knowledge you have you should be ok. If you're unsure or nervous then get some more practice and instruction (even if just from a book) in a less committing environment first. It's no fun if you're constantly s**t scared you've made a mistake.

jk
 Swig 05 Jul 2011
In reply to snaresman:

Yep, whatever you do don't piss your missus off by biting off more than you can chew.

I know people who in the same situation have had a bit of an epic on the lead and exchanged a few strongish words with their belayer/girlfriend and put them off climbing.
In reply to snaresman: I've only briefly browsed the responses so apologies if this has already been mentioned.

When multi-pitching it is VERY important that the leader of all subsequent pitches after the first pitch gets a runner in at the earliest opportunity to avoid the huge fall factors that would otherwise occur.

Al
 GrahamD 05 Jul 2011
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

Even clipping one of the belay anchors helps
 hexcentric 05 Jul 2011
In reply to snaresman:

Neil Gresham's dvd "Get out on Rock" is a pretty good basic summary of what you need to know - and quicker to digest than a book.
HenryJM 05 Jul 2011
In reply to snaresman:
Each anchor should be independent (tied off from each other, so if one fails, the others don't get shock loaded), equalized (equal weight on each one) and the angle between each one shouldn't be more than 90 degrees. You can use only two anchors if they are good (lots of metal/ rock contact). Perhaps practice your rope management (stacking the rope, organizing the stance) before you hit the crag.
On most starred v. diffs the stances are well used and it can be pretty obvious where the placements are.
Don't forget, back in the old days they used to just put the rope over their shoulder and hold on tight, so if your not feeling confident in the stance, make sure you are well braced, its surprising how easy it is to hold a fall on ground that isn't too steep. Get out there!
 stoneback 05 Jul 2011
In reply to snaresman:
> (In reply to muppetfilter)
>
> I'm probably looking in the wrong places, but I cant seem to find a great deal of easy single pitch near me (Bristol), hence me asking about multi pitch.
>

I've just taken the plunge and started leading trad routes. I'm in Bristol too and ive found a whole world of lower grade stuff in the lower wye valley and especially Symonds Yat. At Wintours Leap lots of the D and VD multi pitch routes have massive ledges after pitch one so you can anchor off and treat is as single pitch. S.Y has a nice selection of single pitch VDs which im working through too, its only an hour away tops and well worth the trip - look up Snoozin Suzy** on the crag finder, something to work towards, easy access too. Stay safe and enjoy it!

 Jimbo C 05 Jul 2011
In reply to snaresman:

To put it simply, if you're worried that you're not experienced enough to get it right when it matters, then you probably aren't. Get out and practice, practice in your house. Practice placing gear at ground level and weighting it to find out what works (but keep your face out of the way). Read a book or two. Your first multi-pitch lead should ideally have big ledges for belays. The simple techniques you've already learnt will be enough for most of the time but sometimes you'll need to have the knowledge and confidence to improvise.
 Bobling 05 Jul 2011
In reply to snaresman:

Corner Buttress at Wintours is the route you are after.
 bluerockman 05 Jul 2011
In reply to snaresman: My advice is read a few books that have already been mentioned then get some milage under your melt on single pitch stuff, even spend a day just messing around doing rope work. Once you've cracked it - and it won't take long at all for you to get your head into it then start Multi pitching. The last thing you want to do is be halfway up a route and come across a really weird belay that you haven't a hope of setting up.

Somewhere like Idwal Slabs in North Wales (assuming the weather is ok, is a good place to start. Straight forward routes, easy belays so should provide a good day out.

Finally you have got the rest of you life to climb so really you're in no rush, just enjoy it and don't feel like you are under pressure to lead stuff you are not comfortable with for you first few trips out there!
 Duncan Bourne 05 Jul 2011
In reply to snaresman:
The first thing to think about on and after setting up a belay is "What if?" What if your second falls off? what will happen to you or the belay? Will that anchor in the wobbly rock hold? Will that slack rope pull you off the top? Always a good exercise to think things through.
OP The Norris 06 Jul 2011
In reply to stoneback:

I've just gone and bought myself the Symonds yat guide, There's loadsa stuff! cant wait to get out there, thanks for the tip!

Thanks for all the other great tips everyone, I'm pretty risk averse so hopefully wont put myself into situations I cant get out of.

But hopefully my new found thirst for trad will soon be quenched!
 Offwidth 06 Jul 2011
In reply to snaresman:

I think contradictory posts are inevitable. The overly safety obsessed will say 'never' and give (valid) reasons like: what if the second gets stuck? What if you fall and get injured? What if the weather closes in? In contrast, the adventurers will say: yes go for it. Most will be somewhere between and will say: feel your way but be careful. You will even get good but largely irrelevant advice such as the avoidance of fall factor 2 lead falls (not exactly likely on multipitch mountain VDs

Fact of the matter is we don't know you and advice can lead to trouble if it's taken the wrong way or distracts you from your own proper risk assessmnet. It will however normally be helpful if you are sensible. In that spirit, my advice is find some more experienced climbers (join a club or post on this site) and climb with them and concentrate on mileage rather than difficulty when on your own, even more so on mountain multipitch.

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