UKC

Hi all, im pretty new to climbing and i get most of it but whats the difference between dragon cams and the 4CU cams ? i don't have cams yet and i don't know which is best to buy.

Also, its a toss up between rockcentrics on dyneema or torque nuts - any advice ?

cheers
Alex

In reply to 1906johns: The 4CUs have a double stem (u-shaped) whereas the dragons have a single stem and are therefore more flexible so supposedly better in insecure placements. The dragons also have a double axle so have a greater expansion range per unit.
Despite that i find myself reaching for the 4cus far more often than the dragons. I just find them nicer to use and place (plus they are a lot cheaper).

In reply to aretherenoneleft: ok thanks for that, very interesting, certainly given me food for thought

the tearing point for me is the 4cu's havent got extendable slings...

In reply to 1906johns:
double stem on 4cus is a major drawback. Personally I much prefer Camalots over either.

Dont get any hexes of any kind, waste of time. You only need nuts and cams.

In reply to 1906johns:

DMM 4cu cams do.

this is probs a bit of a silly question but can you put draws onto cam slings ?

In reply to 1906johns:

Yes they have.

And the other chap was wrong when he said:


An insecure placement will be insecure regardless of the stem or frame design. Single stems designs are slightly better if placed with the axle aligned vertically, but this isn't very common - for example an open but shallow pod in an otherwise hairline crack.

I have both, Dragons (or Camalots) have a greater range due to the double axle design, whilst 4CUs are lighter and cheaper per unit. All work very well.

In reply to 1906johns:

Yes!

In reply to Si dH:

Isn't that a pretty stupid to make, unless of course you were being sarcastic?

I mean there are so many routes that can benefit from Hex's being on your rack. They are also lighter and the newer models can be cammed really well (regardless of the make).

I think that it's short sighted not to consider Hexs as they really a workhorse piece of gear.

In reply to 1906johns:

With regards to the hex's I would suggest either. Both have thier pros and con's.

You get more units with Hexcentrics but then again you might find you don't carry all of them. Torque nuts can be extended and you'll find that 4 is usually adequate for a normal rack.

Personally I own a set of torque nuts and I think that they are great.

thanks for the advice

In reply to 1906johns:

I never saw the point of hexes until I borrowed a mate's Torque Nuts. They're awesome. Extendible slings are great and they seem to bite really well. I now have a set too.

In reply to 1906johns:

If you can wait then wait.

You can get away without cams when starting out as you'll find them more useful as you progress through the grades.

A little later down the line you'll probably have played with other peoples gear and decided what works best for you.

As pointed out above you can cam with hexes/torque nuts etc, with a bit of faff.

Buy the 4 sizes of Omega cams. They may weigh a little more than standard cams but cover a much better range. They also cost more but are worth ever penny when you are fighting to get gear in. They also bite better in winter and don`t move around as much in summer. All my partners that use mine love them.

In reply to 1906johns: I think hexes shouldn't be underestimated. I like the fact they feel more solid as a placement, I trust them more than I do cams to be honest. As a beginner I think it's useful to just climb with nuts and hexes first, this gets you good at placing gear. Later you can go on to get cams, but hexes will always be useful. Good luck with your climbing.

In reply to Si dH:

not the best of advice in my opinion!!

get hexes, before cams or with them, & learn to use them, you may after a while end up not using them(although if you progress to winter climbing you most certainly will & you`ll be thankfull that you did get them &learn to place them!!)

you`ll get lots of advice on this forum..........not all of it will be good!!

davey.

i'd recommend torques over hexcentrics, you dont need to carry as many to get the same range and if you have a good range of cams you wont be finding yourself short of the right sizes, the extendable slings are also a great addition. If you are light on cams then the hexcentrics maybe a better idea and they overlap with the big nuts.

I wouldnt recommend going without as they give some bomber placements and i much prefer a hex for setting up anchors over cams.

In reply to Si dH:


You are joking there, aren't you?

That, or you don't know how to use them.

In reply to 1906johns:

Hexes have been defended enough but I'll chuck my two pence in anyway; don't write them off. I love them myself. Given that many modern nuts are shaped to give a camming action, then they can do the job of smaller hex sizes in some instances. Larger hexes are still invaluable and weigh a fraction of what a similar sized cam weighs. They can also be used as huge nuts in big cracks. You can also use a big hex as a belay device if you drop yours.

In reply to Si dH:

Couldn't agree less. I love cams(my personal favorites are Camalots) for parallel sided cracks, e.g. in granite , but for most British rock with its irregular-sided cracks, you do not need cams; in fact one can usually get bomber gear with passive devices. The staples for British rock are - small nuts on wires, larger ones on hi-tech cord or tape, and for the larger sizes hexes (such as Hexcentrics), which all provide very good value and protection for the price and the weight. The rule with cams is you take what you need when you have to.

In reply to 1906johns:

I have a set of DMM Torque nuts. Don't have any complaints really, they seemed to get the best reviews.

In reply to Dave 88:

Really? That sounds extremely useful, how do you do it?

In reply to the OP - the advice to use hexes instead of cams when you first start climbing is worth listening to. Cams made me very lazy when placing gear.

In reply to James_D:

Just the same as you would with a tubular belay device; take a bite of rope, pass through the middle of the hex and clip that to your harness with a screwgate. It's not ideal but it does work if you get the right size hex for the rope you're using. Clip the wire/tape from the hex, to your harness to stop it moving up the rope.

It's probably easier to just use a munter hitch though!!

In reply to Dave 88:

also avoiding the sharpish edges on a hex. Cheers!

In reply to 1906johns:

The differences are in the details. All the mainstream UK/Euro/US made cams work well. IMO the most important difference between 4CU and Dragons is the price, 4CU sets on special offer can be great value.

Same with hexes, whichever you buy they'll work just fine. Personally I'm in the don't bother buying them camp but that's just my opinion, I have a set of hexes that very rarely see any action.

jk

In reply to 1906johns:

Hexes are only useful for hitting sea birds with when attacked.

In reply to 1906johns:
I tend to use my hexes for nice bomber belays, and if i'm getting nervous. I know they can all take a fall but in my head a whacking great hex just seems safer.
Cam wise my dragons are ace, a friend's set of friends are also nice. Play with you partners until you find what you like.

In reply to 1906johns: Hexes are really useful as giant nuts in normal tapering placements - cams tend to 'walk' in these sort of placements.

In reply to James_D: munter hitch ?

In reply to 1906johns:

I can't remember the last time I needed a hex!

In my opinion, they're about as useful as tricams when you've got a rack of cams i.e. occasionally you might find a niche placement. It's another vote for cams (Camalots, 3CU's and Aliens) and nuts (Wallnuts) from me!

A hex is useful on Rectum Rift at Almscliff, tricams are useful in shot holes. That's all I can think of

In reply to andi turner: how are the tricams different from the dragon/4cu cams ?

In reply to 1906johns: I know you are a beginner, but just googling the name of something and seeing a picture will help a lot.

Anyway, tricams: http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=1366

In reply to 1906johns:

They are specially shaped solid nuts that have a camming action when placed. They can also be used passively as nuts. You'll have to google to see.

I certainly prefer cams to hexes as I can't seem to place the latter effectively. On my one and only leader fall the hex ripped and the cam held. I thought the hex was bomber too.

In reply to 1906johns:

Are torque nuts on wire? If so don't bother and get something on tape/dyneema. If you think you may ever want to go winter climbing then get a few rockcentrics and learn how to place them.

4cu are on offer at Needle sports at the moment. Google Needlesports. So I'd get them as they're half the price of dragons or equivalent

In reply to MattG:

Joe Brown's offering a better deal on DMM 3CUs and 4CUs at £84 and £80 for a set of three respectively.

In reply to MattG:

They're on doubled (ie extendable) dyneema.

In reply to mlmatt, davey_briggs and fredt:

You really do surprise me. I had a full set of hexes when I started climbing and for a while I used to use them; then I realised that the number of placements you actually need them for (especially since the advent of No.11 walnuts) is very small if you have a full rack of nuts and cams.

Of course there will be an occasional placement that a hex is useful for, but the benefit this gives you is VASTLY outweighed by the effort of carrying them up a route just in case.

The argument that a beginner may be better off learning with hexes than cams is perhaps valid and something I hadn't considered - but they should find a friend to borrow some gear off and learn how to use it with them if possible. This to some extent is what I did - but I certainly think anyone climbing with hexes who has any experience and climbs above HVS-ish is missing a trick. And all the people I climb, I'm pretty sure, feel the same way.

In reply to 1906johns:

Tricams are completely useless bits of kit that fall out more than they stay in, but some people will tell you they're better than cams in icy cracks in Scotland - this may be true.

http://www.rockrun.com/products/Camp-Tri-Cam-Dyneema-Set.html

I believe Andi's point was that hexes are also useless if you have a decent rack.

In reply to Si dH:

I tend to agree. I haven't carried Hexes in anger for years (OK except for the odd gnarly crack in Pembroke) but I lent my cams to a friend(!) on Burbage one day and borrowed his Hexes - I reckon the fiddling involved adds a full grade to the routes!


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

I bought a set of hexes in 1997 and specially took them out for the first time this year cos they looked so sad and unloved! Placed three which made them all happy again.
Currently they are in Sicily and I´m not which is a fair indication of how usefull I think they are.

Jim

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Yep.

The way I look at it I can either carry hexes or cams and cams are lot more versatile than hexes.

In reply to dra:

good luck if you ever have any serviceability issues with them.