UKC

just watched the excellent steve long video on this. But i have a question and that is why is there so much emphasis put on escaping the system and never any put building a belay where you are not in the system making rescue /help even quicker.
This is something that I have done and taught to others for the last 20 years and yet it still isnt main stream.
Just wondering ?
Again the video is excellent.

In reply to shaun stephens:

Because the need to escape the system is very very rare and it doesn't matter compared to the preference between direct and indirect belays. I know people that use both and so I just dont get what you mean by what is or is not mainstream (I think you mean more common).

In reply to shaun stephens: building a belay that you are not part of is only recommended if your anchors are completely bomber. I also find it easier, especially on grit crags, to be part of the system for belaying. Each to their own but you can guarantee that the day you need it, you'll be in the system!

In reply to shaun stephens: nothing wrong with either answer but both missing the point.
That is that is that when ever this topic comes up of 'escaping the system' the answer of not being in it is never put forward as an alternative. I have climbed in many places with many people had many epics as we all have and have not yet had to escape the system due mainly to having been prepared in the first place by ensuring that i am not in that system in the first place

In reply to shaun stephens:

The reasons for this probably stem from how people learn to build belays. Using the rope is the simplest way to build a belay, and more importantly it uses the least "special equipment" (there is no need for slings or cordelettes etc). Once you've learnt how to build a belay with the rope then you'll always be able to build a belay.

In reply to mlmatt: There is no different gear used for either system just less for the one where you are not in it.

In reply to shaun stephens: I see where you are coming from but I almost always make myself part of the system and I know a lot of other climbers who do the same as it's not always practical to not be part of the system.

Another way of looking at it is - I have a knife permenantly attached to my harness, it's a tool I never hope to use for its intended purpose and I never have had to use it for anything other than cutting cheese and Chorizo but it doesn't mean it won't ever get used.

In reply to mlmatt:

But its not difficult (with bombproof anchors) to build a belay with the rope where you aren't directly part of the system.

I see shauns point that this isn't stated often enough but also see that 'if in doubt about anchors, be part of the system'

Building a belay where you are not part of the system is surely more likely on crags than it is on The Ben in winter on some knarly multi pitch mixed climb?

In reply to shaun stephens: Hi guys, could anyone give me a few pointers for setting up a direct belay in a normal climbing situation using the climbing rope?

The simplest way I can see would be to add an extra clove hitch into the system to allow you to remove the central point from your harness. So, the rope would run like this

Excess rope - clove hitch - anchor - clove hitch - anchor - clove hitch - fig 8 on harness. Obviously on a big HMS. I think I would then extend it with a short sling to another biner to belay from, to reduce clutter on the HMS.

Sorry for the noobish question, its not something I've done before.

In reply to Milesy: It shouldnt make any difference I've used it in all weathers and conditions

In reply to shaun stephens:

I think you are missing the point. Many climbers use your system, many others suggest it as a good alternative belay method (even occasionally on this site) and its not a big deal either way.

In reply to Offwidth: its quite hard to miss the point of my own thoughts would'nt you think?

In reply to shaun stephens:

Out of interest, what is the system that you use? The issue I always have with direct belays is that they are great for belaying a second, but less suited to belaying a leader. What do you do?

In reply to Cheese Monkey:

I'm also a bit of a noob, but i was recently taught the exact system that you've just described, and it seems to work very well in the situations that i've (so far) been in.

I have heard that this can get into a bit of a tangle on multi pitch however, but i'm yet to put this to the test!

I'm sure you'll get a better answer at some point!

In reply to shaun stephens:

Not if they are based on misconceptions You are right that such belays are oddly under-emphasised in the UK. However, escaping the system is a useful skill even if you mainly don't use that belay method.

In reply to snaresman: Nice one, thanks. I think I would only set it up on harder pitches at a seconds limit or something. The extra faff would be worth it then I think. Would be good to be able to have a back up system that I could use to help my gf up a harder pitch. It would also give her the confidence to get up and try stuff thats she not sure of.

In reply to shaun stephens: As a climber, I always thought escaping the system meant giving up your job and living out of a van.

In reply to DJonsight:

Very good. made me chuckle.

Al

In reply to DJonsight: nice one

In reply to shaun stephens:

Although building a direct system may appear to make it easier to escape but in reality it wont make a lot of difference and under most circumstances is unnecessary. The advantages of using an indirect belay usually outweigh the need to be seperate from the system.

Belaying using a belay plate in a direct system is more difficult because it needs to be in front of the belayer and tends to flop about - an italian hitch or magic plate works, but not suited to belaying a leader. If you try to use a direct system on a multi pitch crag you will soon find it is not suited to belaying a leader unless the upward pull has been planned for - this creates unnecesary faff on is not as safe. If you are not part of the system you add no strength to the system. It is much easier to give assistance to a second if you are part of the system - like on the video. All the disadvantages above combined with the frequency for escape to be required mean folk typically use an indirect system, its just easier, usually safer, and more flexible. The exception being when guiding or instructing when a direct system is often used but thats not just because you can escape from it.

Being able to escape only has any relevence if you know what to do next, on a single pitch crag the answer is usually lower them to the floor. If you have the skills to sort out the problem that has caused you to need to escape on a big crag you will not find escaping from an indirect belay using a couple of prussics and a sling a problem.

In reply to Alan Pearson:
The advantages of using an indirect belay usually outweigh the need to be seperate from the system.
I would be interested to know what these advantages are. I have used direct belays whenever possible for many years now and find it far more convenient. Admittedly escaping the system is one of the perceived advantages but not something I have found myself having to do in over 40 years of climbing so not very high on my list of priorities.

Al

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

No-one responded to me earlier - what direct belay system do you all use to belay leaders on multi-pitch climbs?

In reply to Monk: I don't, I transfer the belay plate and krab to the loop on my tie in at the waist. The alternative would be to use an italian hitch for both second and leader but I find that very awkward with double ropes.

Al

In reply to Monk:
Virtually no-one direct belays a leader because you need a belay that will take a high loading from any conceivable direction (and a few that aren´t conceivable as well) so we are talking about a bolt belay, a big thread or the entire contents of a climbing shop carefully arranged over about 11/2 hours work. And it has to be exactly the right height so you can safely and conveniently work the belay device.
Fundamentally it´s going to be a bolt belay and de-rigeur is then to use a HMS, at least on the continent.

Jim