UKC

...to put a Brit on the podium

I know we are only a 'shortlisted' sport, but lets imagine that climbing is going to be in the 2020 olympics. However IF it makes the cut, we have just over eight years to try and put a Brit on the podium.

That means that there is possibly someone just starting to climb now at a Kids Club at a climbing wall/centre somewhere in the UK that could be in with a chance to compete in the Olympics. So a few questions:-

1) Whats keeping Brits off the podium at the moment in international comps?
2) What can/could/should we do to turn it around?
3) I know we have had a few podium finishes over the years and a few recently, but compared to say Ondra and other top competitors, just how far off the pace are we?
4) Would it be important for you to see the UK climb well in the Olympics?

Thanks

In reply to Mark Reeves: The lack of replies makes me thinks that the answer to question 4 for the people that have read this is an emphatic NO

In reply to Mark Reeves:

The reason I didn't reply is that I got tired of the few but vociferous merchants of doom and gloom on the last Olympics thread, and I half expected this thread to be diverted/hijacked in a similar way.

I would very much like to see British climbers do well at Olympic level and I'm sure if/when it comes to it there will be thousands of British climbers glued to screens if we have any real chance of a medal.

In reply to Mark Reeves:

Maybe because the country got to a good enough point of global awareness and freedom of backwards nationalistic ideas so that citizens are able to support sporting individuals of their choice regardless what country the competitor's mother broke her waters in?

Maybe flag waving is just not that important for people any more.

Just a thought

In reply to Mark Reeves:

I think Britain needs a whole new look at it's climbing training, if someone somewhere starts training now like patxi for the next 9 years and dodges injuries then I'm pretty sure we could get a podium. But it's more down to the individual and whether they're motivated enough to train that hard and for that long.

9 years... I'd be 30 but that's still young right?

In reply to Mark Reeves:

Let me reverse the question.

Why is it important for you that somebody who was born in the same country as you, outperforms in one event people who were born in another country?

In reply to Mark Reeves: I think that it would take the same kind of commitment as other Olympic sports. All the best sportsmen and women in the world have the the same three things, the means to practice, the opportunities and the dedication. We need to provide programs for gifted youngsters that will give them everything they need, including mentors.

Most people can't afford to climb 4 or 5 times per week, or are too knackered from work to do so. The dreaded, soul destroying sponsorship from large companies plays a huge role in giving people the opportunity to climb to their hearts content on a multitude of different rock and in different environments.

Organisation and structure is the key for putting a youngster on the podium, I think.

I would love to see climbing at the Olympics, and, I love to see us win anything

In reply to TheAvenger:

Do you ever get the feeling that you take life a little too seriously?

In reply to Mark Reeves: I`m not sure I understand what Olympic Climbing is about,does it consist of eating a full breakfast at Petes Eats then a mad dash to the Cromlech Boulders in clapped out Mini`s for a few routes followed by the compulsory race back to the Vaynol? If so I`m in.

In reply to TheAvenger:

Let me ask you a question:

What's wrong with having a bit of pride in the nation that you were raised or born in?

Competition is healthy, why not support your own nationals who have the ambition to put themselves out there and test themselves against the very best?

In reply to Mark Reeves:

What form will the climbing take?

There needs to be a good competition structure, well publicised with a clear way of heading up the ladder. People need to know how to access competition at various levels. Climbers aren't generally doing it (my perception) in order to be better than someone else but to enjoy the sense of freedom / achievement / other. Competition structure that is ingrained in the sport, supported by local facilities and a club structure is a starting point. People have to appreciate what the ultimate level they are looking for feels like, and how they can progress towards it.

Coaching (really important), clubs (swell the numbers doing this for competitive reasons), full time athletes, building of facilities clearly aligned to what an Olympic route would look like, sports science research behind the scenes, specialist physios ... ...

In reply to Monk:

I'm just bored...

In reply to wushu: lol It is possible, just think yourself lucky you're not a gymnast. . . you would be screwed.

In reply to Mark Reeves:

I don't like the sound of it. I've never seen a competition but all those young people having fun are destroying climbing and the BMC should commit collective suidice for inventing climbing walls, or something. But then again, it would be very inspirational if global multinationals controlled the sport and climbers were finally ruled by a sinister conspiracy between the government, the BMC and Graeme Alderson.

In reply to Mark Reeves & John Arran

I would suggest that Brit climbers don't care enough about competition. Or the best ones don't.

Reversing that would be a big step towards competition success.

In reply to Mark Reeves:

Are there more lead climbing comps now? I've always fancied competing in one, but there never were any apart from the nationals. If you really want competitive climbing to thrive, then we need to actually have access to some competitions (I realise that the BRYCS goes quite a long way towards this).

One way of finding out what is wrong with the current system is to find out why some of the youth stars from the last 10 years didn't progress to the adult comps. Is it because they discovered the outdoors? Is it possible to contact them and canvas opinion? Jemma Powell is one that springs to mind, but there are loads more.

In reply to Monk:

Alot to do with funding would be my first guess.

In reply to TheAvenger:

Interesting point - Is sport the last acceptable form of nationalism ? Would it be good for mankind if we abandoned nationalism althogether and took a global viewpoint.

Well it would make sport a lot less interesting, and I think there are benefits to society as a whole from encouraging people to take up sports.

Even if we could eliminate the tribalism, would it be a good thing - it does foster a certain cohesion within the tribe, and following a team through thick and thin is good for the soul.

I could argue the point further, but I rather suspect you aren't really interested, are merely a wind up merchant, and England have just taken another wicket against India....

In reply to Mark Reeves:

There was a lack of structure for the Senior lead team, that has changed and moving forward now... The bouldering Team have done well and they are getting better with lots of support, funding for many is the issue and not being able to go to lots of internationals.


Funding/Sponsorship/Support/Raise the profile of comps...


It is the Juniors now that we are needing to look at and support... if you look at the current rankings and kids taking place we are not that far of the mark, Shauna qualified in First but then fell off the mark, not sure why as havn't spoken to her but she is a junior that has just moved into the seniors, so prehaps lack of experience, Tara in her first year in Youth B mad a final and finished in 6th, Molly just missed out, Ed is doing well as is Kitty, although injured, if the older juniors continue then they will inspire the younger ones and keep them motivated..


Yes.

In reply to AlisonSmiles:

I've generally got nothing against competition climbing, but this seems like a really scary way of putting it!

"Most climbers are doing it because they enjoy it or they like to test themselves against their personal goals rather than by competing against other people - so we need to get competition structure ingrained in the sport so they see the error of their ways and learn the importance of winning competitions."

In reply to Mark Reeves:

I'm not really interested in Climbing as a competition sport.

When you compare the numbers who we see going to indoor walls with the number who actually compete in indoor competitions, then I would suggest that most indoor climbers aren't interested either.

I'm pretty certain that the (overwhelming) majority of outdoor climbers and mountaineers aren't interested.

I mean all this in the way that I'm an occasional cyclist, who does watch the odd bit of cycling at Olympics/World Champs/Tour de France when it comes on the TV, and does prefer a Briton to do well. But I wouldn't go out of my way to watch it.

If competition were a completely self-contained unit, which supported its' own people, without financial input (other than governmental) from others, I would be quite happy for it to prosper.
However it obtains its' finances from BMC members, who I would suggest are mainly uninterested in the indoor competitions, and would rather the money was directed toward Access and so forth.

I believe the finance it obtains is way out of line to that received from indoor only climbers, let alone the miniscule number (when compared with BMC membership) that compete.

I worry that if it becomes an Olympic sport, then governmental interference (GOVERNING body remember, not what the BMC is all about) then the tail will wag the dog.
I see NO reason why those who feel like me should then be forced to leave the BMC - it's OUR organisation, and OUR money in the bank.
Why can't the sport climbers set up their own entity, where they can set their own rules, and provide their own finances - and get their own sponsorship.

In reply to Iain McKenzie:

And if the chosen discipline is speed climbing?

In reply to fred99:


Like I said earlier: "The reason I didn't reply is that I got tired of the few but vociferous merchants of doom and gloom on the last Olympics thread, and I half expected this thread to be diverted/hijacked in a similar way."

Looks like I wasn't far wrong.

In reply to jimtitt:

Bridge ... cross... get there...

We are currently also looking into the need for a British Junior Bouldering Team as there is now a number of EYC Bouldering events, but again... it will have to be something to consider at a later date.

Hopefully once the IFSC sort out what discipline will be pushed then decisions will be made but that is in the hands of the IFSC and the member federation votes.

In reply to john arran:

Would it be worth framing the discussion with a hypothetical "if climbing was accepted as an olympic sport and hence competitive climbing started qualifying for government funding (and attracting more sponsorship) and had an independent body (with close links to but financial independence from the BMC) set up to administer the nonzero but not huge amount of money that they were now getting..."

In reply to Mark Reeves:

Doing my best to prevent this thread being similarly derailed by repeated attempts at dividing the whole climbing community, let me get back to answering the original questions:

1) In bouldering, very little, as our athletes are close to the very highest level and they are coming through in numbers. All it will take will be for one of those with enough talent to truly believe they can win and want it enough. In leading we are miles off the pace, largely because very few top UK climbers are inspired to put in the effort. Results are much more promising among juniors though, so maybe the dire present situation won't last too much longer.

2) One thing that will help is if we stop listening to all these folk who want to return climbing to the '70s. Yes it was fun at the time but the world moves on and young climbers nowadays gain inspiration from many different sources. Some of them nowadays are even women! (which doesn't seem to be the case among those wanting to return the BMC to the dark ages, curiously enough.)

We need to be presenting competition climbing in its true light as a healthy and rewarding branch of the sport in general, so that young people who are interested in competing don't get a complex about it and feel psychologically compelled to join the has-been or never-was old folk in bumbling up Severes instead.

3) In leading the gulf is cavernous. This is mainly because our top climbers aren't competing, but even if they were the gap would be substantial. If comps and comp climbers weren't derided so much, more people would be happy to be more involved, some of them may find they had a particular aptitude for the discipline, and this could lead to very much better results. It would probably also lead to an increased willingness on the part of the better walls to cater for top lead-climbers by setting comp-style routes suitable for onsight training, which in turn could help improve results...

In bouldering there's precious little in it and I believe the thriving scene in Sheffield and other places could well lead to one or two genuine stars emerging in the very near future.

4) I think it should be similarly important to most UK climbers as seeing major super-Alpine first ascents by Brits or seeing Brits climb the world's hardest trad routes. It's all climbing, after all.

In reply to john arran:


Actually, this reminds me of a particularly pertinent point. A couple of years ago when I was fit and onsighting 7b+ indoors, I found that there just weren't enough/any routes at most walls at high grades, and certainly not enough to train on. Above 7a+ there tend to be a handful of routes up to 8a and very rarely anything above that. Now, these grades are absolutely miles off any sort of competition standard. Basically, there just aren't the facilities to available for good climbers to train and develop.

In reply to john arran and Ian Mac:

Thansk guys, this was the kind of answers I was looking for. As like 90% of climbers I don't really go out of my way to watch competition climbing. That said I caught a bit of the bouldering after Ian posted the link, and was really taken with the format for TV.

To me though, the chance of an olympic climbing format is one that made me ponder the questions I posed, as competeing is one thing, but I have grown up to really appreciate the Olympics and the effort people go to just to get to the games let alone win. I would personally love to see a brit doing well, regardless of whether that makes me nationalistic or not.

I too believe that in bouldering we are nearly there and in leading there is a significant gap. I also think I have a good reason why. One of which is motivation, I will hopefully explain below, but I don't thinks it is lack of motivation to train or compete.

I think we are there with bouldering because we have both great facilities (The works and others), but also we have so many excellent and hard problems in the UK. So whilst the training keeps people strong and develops technique, it is the striving to complete those classic hard problems across the UK and the world that adds that extra level of motivation.

However in lead climbing the lack of suitable indoor venues (how many lead walls in the UK are comp standard?!), but also the lack of enough hard sports routes in the UK, not to mention the weather is a real barrier to staying motivated for hard routes. Compared to europe where there are steep overhanging limestone routes everywhere. I flicked through the new provience guide and one of the crags had more F7c's and above than there are routes at LPT.

I am going to suggest that the likes of Roman and Ondra, have maintained motivation for climbing by being as good on rock as they are in comps. I would suggest that you can't have one without the other, but will be proved wrong, as if you want to onsight F7c or harder, would you be more motivated to do it outdoors or indoors? Or put it another way would you prefer to spend days at a sunny crag or days in a dusty room without seeing any light?!

I am trying to right something on the subject, and some of it has been enlightening. I am not even a cyclist for instance but enjoyed one afternoon watching those guys fly on the Tour Du France.

Thanks for all the input, well most of it!

In reply to Mark Reeves: Udo has posted quite a good write up on the Arco WC here that raises some interesting points; https://twitter.com/iain_mckenzie/status/95748684012195840

In reply to john arran and mark reeves:

Honestly, I think our current standing has very little to do with the quality of our climbing venues, both indoors and out. We have some of the best hard sport climbs in the world, and some of the best conditions too. Indoors, you can train very effectively for leading competitions on a bouldering wall (like, say, Patxi or Ramonet or Helena Alemán).

This on the other hand:

"If comps and comp climbers weren't derided so much, more people would be happy to be more involved, some of them may find they had a particular aptitude for the discipline, and this could lead to very much better results."

Sounds pretty much on the button. The same could also be said of most people's attitudes to training in general, but I think things are, slowly, starting to change...

In reply to Iain McKenzie:


A lot to do with discovering beer and members of the opposite sex would be my first guess.

As to the perceived lack of positive success in International competitions, that is a complex question, which many have already addressed. However, support and funding are huge. If the UK wants to win they need to support it. The exceptional level of animosity against competative climbing displayed in the other discussion shows a partial reason why there is not more success.

This being said, do not overlook the fact that, well, let's fae it, the UK is vertically challenged. We punch above our weight in most things, but it is akin to asking why we don't have the greatest women's downhill skiers in the world. When the Alps, the Rockies, the Dolomites and the Tatras are outside your back door you will climb them. Being a great outdoor climber will greatly improve your chances of indoor success.

Again though, take pride in what you do have: the UK has some very promising young climbers. The future is not bleak and there is great room fro future development.

In reply to Mark Reeves: http://www.youtube.com/worldbusiness#p/u/6/rT-YdC8eFi8