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I hate these onsighting forum rants... but......
I was looking at a poster the other day of Lucy Creamer on some limestone sport route in Margalef and the caption says 'Lucy Creamer onsighting bla bla bla 8b+'. Can't remember what the route was called.
So above Lucy's head on the picture is a line of really really really chalked holds. So, surely one of the main ingredients of an onsight is that the climber doesn't know what is coming, and more specifically, where the holds are. Granted she won't know what each hold feels like, that will have to be negotiated when she gets there, but if she has a trail of white splodges all the way up the route, showing here exactly what holds to go for, is that a 'real' onsight?
I was looking at a poster the other day of Lucy Creamer on some limestone sport route in Margalef and the caption says 'Lucy Creamer onsighting bla bla bla 8b+'. Can't remember what the route was called.
So above Lucy's head on the picture is a line of really really really chalked holds. So, surely one of the main ingredients of an onsight is that the climber doesn't know what is coming, and more specifically, where the holds are. Granted she won't know what each hold feels like, that will have to be negotiated when she gets there, but if she has a trail of white splodges all the way up the route, showing here exactly what holds to go for, is that a 'real' onsight?
In reply to CragRat11: yawn fooking yawn
In reply to CragRat11:
I think a key part of an onsight is getting the sequence right and knowing where you need to pause to rest, before climbing a harder bit further up.
This could still be a challenge with chalked holds to follow.
I see what you mean, but I don't know to what degree it alters the challenge to follow chalked holds.
It could be person and route dependent?
Cheers
Tim
I think a key part of an onsight is getting the sequence right and knowing where you need to pause to rest, before climbing a harder bit further up.
This could still be a challenge with chalked holds to follow.
I see what you mean, but I don't know to what degree it alters the challenge to follow chalked holds.
It could be person and route dependent?
Cheers
Tim
In reply to CragRat11:
Personally I ab down with a sponge and bucket of water to clean all the chalk marks off before I onsight a route.
Personally I ab down with a sponge and bucket of water to clean all the chalk marks off before I onsight a route.
In reply to EddInaBox: Cheat! You need to get someone else to do this for you (and wait for it all to dry - no yarding up the nice damp patches!)
In reply to EddInaBox: I like to do a good few laps on a top rope before i even think about going for the onsight...
In reply to CragRat11:
Hi CragRat11
The committee have met and declared it an onsight. Further, some routes are harder to onsight when the wrong holds are chalked, one committee member declared as it had happened to her recently (what a feeble excuse).
Hope this helps.
Hi CragRat11
The committee have met and declared it an onsight. Further, some routes are harder to onsight when the wrong holds are chalked, one committee member declared as it had happened to her recently (what a feeble excuse).
Hope this helps.
In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC:
>some routes are harder to onsight when the wrong holds are chalked, one committee member declared as it had happened to her recently
That's the "anti beta flash", even better than an onsight!
>some routes are harder to onsight when the wrong holds are chalked, one committee member declared as it had happened to her recently
That's the "anti beta flash", even better than an onsight!
In reply to Blue Straggler:
A "beta sandbag flash" is the official terminology.
> That's the "anti beta flash", even better than an onsight!
A "beta sandbag flash" is the official terminology.
In reply to Karl Lunt:
It's not cheating if you wear a blindfold when washing the holds, or if you do it on a really dark night.
> Cheat! You need to get someone else to do this for you (and wait for it all to dry - no yarding up the nice damp patches!)
It's not cheating if you wear a blindfold when washing the holds, or if you do it on a really dark night.
In reply to CragRat11:
Perhaps the 8b+ grade for this route already takes into account that all the holds will be visibly chalked as the route is unlikely to ever have chalk-less holds again?
Perhaps the 8b+ grade for this route already takes into account that all the holds will be visibly chalked as the route is unlikely to ever have chalk-less holds again?
In reply to CragRat11:
It is just a matter of how to use words really.
under your assumptions "onsighting" on any ovehanging wall would be impossible, and still a complicated matter for slabs in dry climates (you'd have to be the first on the route after the last heavy rain)
is it more interesting to reward as "better style" 20 ascents out of 100, or only 2?
If you think about it a little you'll realize why chalk and rubber maks, despite being "beta" , don't devalue an onsight ascent to flash.
(similar issue : in sport climbing we've lost the word "pinkpoint", ie redpointing on pre-placed draws. Everybody pinkpoints his/hers hardest routes today.
Occasional "real redpoints", done placing the draws on lead, are either the result of practical issues that have nothing to do with the climb itself, or of an insane mind.
So there is no practical need to differentiate the two cases, and we dropped one word from our vocabulary)
It is just a matter of how to use words really.
under your assumptions "onsighting" on any ovehanging wall would be impossible, and still a complicated matter for slabs in dry climates (you'd have to be the first on the route after the last heavy rain)
is it more interesting to reward as "better style" 20 ascents out of 100, or only 2?
If you think about it a little you'll realize why chalk and rubber maks, despite being "beta" , don't devalue an onsight ascent to flash.
(similar issue : in sport climbing we've lost the word "pinkpoint", ie redpointing on pre-placed draws. Everybody pinkpoints his/hers hardest routes today.
Occasional "real redpoints", done placing the draws on lead, are either the result of practical issues that have nothing to do with the climb itself, or of an insane mind.
So there is no practical need to differentiate the two cases, and we dropped one word from our vocabulary)
In reply to CragRat11:
There is no question that a route is 'easier to Onsight' when the holds are chalked!
I don't think though 'traditionally' it is considered to invalidate the Onsight ascent, certainly not in my view!
However, people who claim that it doesn't make the ascent easier are talking shite IMO. More so as the grades increase, when the chalking becomes more and more helpful for Onsight success!
> I hate these onsighting forum rants... but......
>
> I was looking at a poster the other day of Lucy Creamer on some limestone sport route in Margalef and the caption says 'Lucy Creamer onsighting bla bla bla 8b+'. Can't remember what the route was called.
>
> So above Lucy's head on the picture is a line of really really really chalked holds. So, surely one of the main ingredients of an onsight is that the climber doesn't know what is coming, and more specifically, where the holds are. Granted she won't know what each hold feels like, that will have to be negotiated when she gets there, but if she has a trail of white splodges all the way up the route, showing here exactly what holds to go for, is that a 'real' onsight?
>
> I was looking at a poster the other day of Lucy Creamer on some limestone sport route in Margalef and the caption says 'Lucy Creamer onsighting bla bla bla 8b+'. Can't remember what the route was called.
>
> So above Lucy's head on the picture is a line of really really really chalked holds. So, surely one of the main ingredients of an onsight is that the climber doesn't know what is coming, and more specifically, where the holds are. Granted she won't know what each hold feels like, that will have to be negotiated when she gets there, but if she has a trail of white splodges all the way up the route, showing here exactly what holds to go for, is that a 'real' onsight?
There is no question that a route is 'easier to Onsight' when the holds are chalked!
I don't think though 'traditionally' it is considered to invalidate the Onsight ascent, certainly not in my view!
However, people who claim that it doesn't make the ascent easier are talking shite IMO. More so as the grades increase, when the chalking becomes more and more helpful for Onsight success!
In reply to CragRat11:
Of course the obvious solution to this issue is the Chalk-a-Matic™ random magnesium carbonate cannon, I'm off to my shed to start inventing!
Of course the obvious solution to this issue is the Chalk-a-Matic™ random magnesium carbonate cannon, I'm off to my shed to start inventing!
In reply to Cragrat Rich: But does it not cut both ways i.e. some of the holds that are chalked up could be misleading and not the right holds which, if that is the case, could neutralise the benefit.
Al
Al
In reply to Cragrat Rich:
Which particular route are you talking about?
E
> (In reply to CragRat11)
> [...]
>
> There is no question that a route is 'easier to Onsight' when the holds are chalked!
>
> [...]
>
> There is no question that a route is 'easier to Onsight' when the holds are chalked!
>
Which particular route are you talking about?
E
In reply to CragRat11:
Couldn't be less interested in this topic but impressed that Lucy was onsighting 8b+ - she kept that one quiet!!
Couldn't be less interested in this topic but impressed that Lucy was onsighting 8b+ - she kept that one quiet!!
In reply to CragRat11: You could argue the ethical toss on this all day long - does reading the description in a guidebook beforehand, invalidate a true onsight? Does talking to a mate who's done it before invalidate an onsight ascent? Does studying the line from below whilst having a fag beforehand invalidate an onsight ascent?
And I refuse to use the terminology 'beta' because I'm too old to get down and hip with the kids, and more importantly, it's a silly word in the context of climbing
However, in the real world, defining an onsight lead is simple - it's leading a route you haven't done before, end of!
And I refuse to use the terminology 'beta' because I'm too old to get down and hip with the kids, and more importantly, it's a silly word in the context of climbing
However, in the real world, defining an onsight lead is simple - it's leading a route you haven't done before, end of!
In reply to CragRat11:
Strange question that no-one seems to have asked, the poster that is in question. Are the holds that are chalked up actually on that route ?
I ask because I have seen a number of routes cross one another, meaning that some of the holds for one route are also used on another.
Strange question that no-one seems to have asked, the poster that is in question. Are the holds that are chalked up actually on that route ?
I ask because I have seen a number of routes cross one another, meaning that some of the holds for one route are also used on another.
In reply to ashley1_scott: Yes the chalked holds are definately on that route.
If I climb something onsight, the thrill I get is down to not knowing what is coming, where to go, and whether it might be too hard for me. So I just wondered whether following a line of chalked holds affects that feeling of 'not knowing what is coming' and makes it a different experience. I will admit that I have very little interest in climbing really steep limestone though, so I am no authority on any of this.
I think the route was called Sativa Patetica or something. Can't really remember the name properly or the exact grade, it was on a poster that I was passing.
If I climb something onsight, the thrill I get is down to not knowing what is coming, where to go, and whether it might be too hard for me. So I just wondered whether following a line of chalked holds affects that feeling of 'not knowing what is coming' and makes it a different experience. I will admit that I have very little interest in climbing really steep limestone though, so I am no authority on any of this.
I think the route was called Sativa Patetica or something. Can't really remember the name properly or the exact grade, it was on a poster that I was passing.
In reply to CragRat11:
That's where you are "wrong" i think.
The beauty of onsight climbing, to me, is that you have many elements to make an informed guess about what will come next (and, the more experience you have, the more elements you will be able to read. Even without any chalk).
But you do not have anything "sure", of course.
Onsighting at it's best is dynoing to something that looks like a jug, without being 100% sure that it is really a jug. Did you guess it right?
Still, you dyno because it looks like a jug, because you're close to "knowing" that it is one...
If we really were "blind" about the route, onsighting will be a game of holding on as long as possible while moving up slowly and statically and testing each next hold.
Every onsight would be climbed as a death-route on choss, even the safest sport climb on the most bombproof rock ever.
>
> If I climb something onsight, the thrill I get is down to not knowing what is coming, where to go, and whether it might be too hard for me.
> If I climb something onsight, the thrill I get is down to not knowing what is coming, where to go, and whether it might be too hard for me.
That's where you are "wrong" i think.
The beauty of onsight climbing, to me, is that you have many elements to make an informed guess about what will come next (and, the more experience you have, the more elements you will be able to read. Even without any chalk).
But you do not have anything "sure", of course.
Onsighting at it's best is dynoing to something that looks like a jug, without being 100% sure that it is really a jug. Did you guess it right?
Still, you dyno because it looks like a jug, because you're close to "knowing" that it is one...
If we really were "blind" about the route, onsighting will be a game of holding on as long as possible while moving up slowly and statically and testing each next hold.
Every onsight would be climbed as a death-route on choss, even the safest sport climb on the most bombproof rock ever.
In reply to ghisino:
So you are saying that what I experience when I onsight something is "wrong" ? That makes no sense what so ever. Or are you saying that my definition of an onsight is "wrong" ?
So basically, you can make an informed guess, but you don't really know what to expect from the route.
Thats a load of rubbish, or I'm struggling to understand what you are saying. Onsighting is not just a series of dynos to a line of jugs.
Surely onsighting something steep is a bit of a game of holding on as long as you can. You get to a difficult move, if you can work out the sequence and get the move right first time than you carry on, if not you fall off.
I can't believe I am arguing about this rubbish.
> (In reply to CragRat11)
> [...]
>
>
> That's where you are "wrong" i think.
>
> [...]
>
>
> That's where you are "wrong" i think.
>
So you are saying that what I experience when I onsight something is "wrong" ? That makes no sense what so ever. Or are you saying that my definition of an onsight is "wrong" ?
> The beauty of onsight climbing, to me, is that you have many elements to make an informed guess about what will come next (and, the more experience you have, the more elements you will be able to read. Even without any chalk).
> But you do not have anything "sure", of course.
> But you do not have anything "sure", of course.
So basically, you can make an informed guess, but you don't really know what to expect from the route.
> Onsighting at it's best is dynoing to something that looks like a jug, without being 100% sure that it is really a jug. Did you guess it right?
> Still, you dyno because it looks like a jug, because you're close to "knowing" that it is one...
Thats a load of rubbish, or I'm struggling to understand what you are saying. Onsighting is not just a series of dynos to a line of jugs.
> If we really were "blind" about the route, onsighting will be a game of holding on as long as possible while moving up slowly and statically and testing each next hold.
Surely onsighting something steep is a bit of a game of holding on as long as you can. You get to a difficult move, if you can work out the sequence and get the move right first time than you carry on, if not you fall off.
I can't believe I am arguing about this rubbish.
In reply to CragRat11:
I can't believe you brought it up in the first place.
> (In reply to ghisino)
>
> I can't believe I am arguing about this rubbish.
>
> I can't believe I am arguing about this rubbish.
I can't believe you brought it up in the first place.
In reply to Cragrat Rich:
Really? I can think of a couple of perma-chalked routes I've been on recently where there's at least five times as many 'holds' chalked as you actually use. Most of them aren't holds at all, they're things people fumble with then abandon onsight, they're things used for pulling back into the wall after a fall, they're bits of holds that turn out useless but get hit from time to time, the actual holds you need are hidden in a sea of chalked features! It's maybe no harder but it's certainly no easier for the all the chalk.
> However, people who claim that it doesn't make the ascent easier are talking shite IMO. More so as the grades increase, when the chalking becomes more and more helpful for Onsight success!
Really? I can think of a couple of perma-chalked routes I've been on recently where there's at least five times as many 'holds' chalked as you actually use. Most of them aren't holds at all, they're things people fumble with then abandon onsight, they're things used for pulling back into the wall after a fall, they're bits of holds that turn out useless but get hit from time to time, the actual holds you need are hidden in a sea of chalked features! It's maybe no harder but it's certainly no easier for the all the chalk.
In reply to metal arms: I know, I'm not proud.
In reply to CragRat11:
maybe i have a communication problem. Let's use images to illustrate my point.
youtube.com/watch?v=t-btPtpkMr4&
Let's forget the fact that it is a cutting-edge ascent.
It is still amazing for its form.
Quick, bold decisions. Flowy, almost continuous movement. No apparent hesistation. The route is close to his os limit, but he makes it look like a path.
It is as if he was climbing in a state of trance.
There's something irrational and dionysiac in it.
It sometimes happens to witness similar ascents, at any grade : i'm equally amazed, and especially amazed when it happens to a "beginner".
Now, when someone is onsighting close to his/her limit with a similar attitude and grace, no matter if the route is 6a or 7c or whatever...Does it really make it less magic and graceful if most of the holds are chalked???
and the magic/mystique of onsighting, at least for sport climbs...is it about this combination of talent, irrational boldness and luck, or about being in "full control" of the route?
maybe i have a communication problem. Let's use images to illustrate my point.
youtube.com/watch?v=t-btPtpkMr4&
Let's forget the fact that it is a cutting-edge ascent.
It is still amazing for its form.
Quick, bold decisions. Flowy, almost continuous movement. No apparent hesistation. The route is close to his os limit, but he makes it look like a path.
It is as if he was climbing in a state of trance.
There's something irrational and dionysiac in it.
It sometimes happens to witness similar ascents, at any grade : i'm equally amazed, and especially amazed when it happens to a "beginner".
Now, when someone is onsighting close to his/her limit with a similar attitude and grace, no matter if the route is 6a or 7c or whatever...Does it really make it less magic and graceful if most of the holds are chalked???
and the magic/mystique of onsighting, at least for sport climbs...is it about this combination of talent, irrational boldness and luck, or about being in "full control" of the route?
In reply to CragRat11:
Can you onsight a route indoors? If so, the holds there are clearly marked with a colour, so what's the difference between coloured holds indoors and chalked holds outdoors?
Can you onsight a route indoors? If so, the holds there are clearly marked with a colour, so what's the difference between coloured holds indoors and chalked holds outdoors?
In reply to teflonpete:
With regards to Indoors, most gyms have the draws permanently attached too, so there goes the O/S.
I remember belaying my mate on Orestes at Arapiles and the guy next to me said he was going for the o/s of 'Have a nice flight'. The draws were already on it and was also chalked to buggery. I just smiled and looked away.
With regards to Indoors, most gyms have the draws permanently attached too, so there goes the O/S.
I remember belaying my mate on Orestes at Arapiles and the guy next to me said he was going for the o/s of 'Have a nice flight'. The draws were already on it and was also chalked to buggery. I just smiled and looked away.
In reply to Offwidth: Rain could have helped, indeed.
May be we should face it and agree that in such situation there is no condition for onsight, swallow the big fat pill of ego, and confirm it as flash.
May be we should face it and agree that in such situation there is no condition for onsight, swallow the big fat pill of ego, and confirm it as flash.
In reply to ghisino: I think we are misunderstanding each other. Watching Ondra climb is amazing, watching anybody climb with style and grace is amazing, whether its onsight or pre-practiced.
But this isn't what I'm getting at. Heres the scenario.
If I went to onsight something at the top of my grade and it had no chalk on it what so-ever, any of the holds could be the the key to the sequence. I would have to make a judgement which hold to go for in the moment and if I made the wrong decision I could easily fall off.
It would feel different to onsighting a route where the right holds above me were clearly chalked. This would show me the right way to go, and to an extent, the right sequence. It would take away some of the uncertainty of the route above me and probably make a difference to the difficulty.
So, back to the original question. If you are following a line of clearly chalked holds, that show you the way up the wall and which holds to grab. How does that affect what we all call 'an onsight'?
I'm gonna keep digging
But this isn't what I'm getting at. Heres the scenario.
If I went to onsight something at the top of my grade and it had no chalk on it what so-ever, any of the holds could be the the key to the sequence. I would have to make a judgement which hold to go for in the moment and if I made the wrong decision I could easily fall off.
It would feel different to onsighting a route where the right holds above me were clearly chalked. This would show me the right way to go, and to an extent, the right sequence. It would take away some of the uncertainty of the route above me and probably make a difference to the difficulty.
So, back to the original question. If you are following a line of clearly chalked holds, that show you the way up the wall and which holds to grab. How does that affect what we all call 'an onsight'?
I'm gonna keep digging
In reply to Enty:
Elder Crack, Right Eliminate, Five Finger Exercise, Suicide wall, Crack of Doom, y'know, those routes where the line's not too well defined! ;-0
Steve
> (In reply to Cragrat Rich)
> [...]
>
> Which particular route are you talking about?
>
> E
> [...]
>
> Which particular route are you talking about?
>
> E
Elder Crack, Right Eliminate, Five Finger Exercise, Suicide wall, Crack of Doom, y'know, those routes where the line's not too well defined! ;-0
Steve
In reply to metal arms: I've done quite a few. Some yes, some no. Your clearly deviating from the point though eh.
In reply to CragRat11:Time to tell some people to change all ticks to with beta.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=162108
A chalked hold can sometimes make a situation worse, ever been indoors and trying a route, and half way up where every falls off you see a hold that is blatantly a only a foot hold a the grade but its covered in chalk. chalk isn't always beta sometime it's actually a key sign of where everyone goes wrong, so following the chalk can fail an on sight attempt.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=162108
A chalked hold can sometimes make a situation worse, ever been indoors and trying a route, and half way up where every falls off you see a hold that is blatantly a only a foot hold a the grade but its covered in chalk. chalk isn't always beta sometime it's actually a key sign of where everyone goes wrong, so following the chalk can fail an on sight attempt.
In reply to lm610: Good point.
I'm throwing the concept out there for people to discuss, not saying - THIS IS HOW IT IS!
Like some do on here. So I don't need or want to tell people that their onsight wasn't an onsight.
I'm throwing the concept out there for people to discuss, not saying - THIS IS HOW IT IS!
Like some do on here. So I don't need or want to tell people that their onsight wasn't an onsight.
In reply to CragRat11:
it gives you beta, of course. And the cases where chalk creates confusion are exceptions, or cases of poor chalk-reading skills.
the problem is that is not true that we all call "onsight" the same thing.
in sport climbing, at least above a certain grade, almost nobody really cares.
Why?
well if you say that chalk on the route invalidates an os, as i said before, some routes will be un-onsightable forever, after the first ascent. Many others could be onsightable only for the first ascent after the rain.
While clearly "more onsight" than a chalked one, an "unchalked" os is not interesting for a sport climber because it totally defies the purpose of having "rules" for what makes an os, a flash, a redpoint...
that is to provide some sort of repeatable challenges, in the sense that if i redpoint a certain 7a at 10 am, some guy might come in at 11 and flash it, and another might o/s it in the afternoon...
and so, as lame as it is, we all have this ranking in our heads where the last one is the better climber of the three and i am the worse.
saying that "chalked os" is not valid would be against such logic, that is the logic at the base of any sport that is really a sport.
It would make onsights such a rare occurrence that they would become totally irrelevant from the "sport" point of view, as solos, blindfolded ascents, etc...
Now : if you consider that for instance, trad climbing is not a sport, but rather a sort of yoga-like discipline, or a form of art, or a traditional dance up the rocks, i'm fine that in trad climbing chalk invalidates an ascent.
Just please don't apply the same logic to sport climbing, because it does not belong to it.
Otherwise, sport climbs wouldn't be cleaned from dirt and chosse before being made "public", and they woudn't even be bolted...
(ot : loose rock increase uncertainty to. Is a pre-cleaned face less "onsight" than the same face in its original chossy state?)
> So, back to the original question. If you are following a line of clearly chalked holds, that show you the way up the wall and which holds to grab. How does that affect what we all call 'an onsight'?
>
>
it gives you beta, of course. And the cases where chalk creates confusion are exceptions, or cases of poor chalk-reading skills.
the problem is that is not true that we all call "onsight" the same thing.
in sport climbing, at least above a certain grade, almost nobody really cares.
Why?
well if you say that chalk on the route invalidates an os, as i said before, some routes will be un-onsightable forever, after the first ascent. Many others could be onsightable only for the first ascent after the rain.
While clearly "more onsight" than a chalked one, an "unchalked" os is not interesting for a sport climber because it totally defies the purpose of having "rules" for what makes an os, a flash, a redpoint...
that is to provide some sort of repeatable challenges, in the sense that if i redpoint a certain 7a at 10 am, some guy might come in at 11 and flash it, and another might o/s it in the afternoon...
and so, as lame as it is, we all have this ranking in our heads where the last one is the better climber of the three and i am the worse.
saying that "chalked os" is not valid would be against such logic, that is the logic at the base of any sport that is really a sport.
It would make onsights such a rare occurrence that they would become totally irrelevant from the "sport" point of view, as solos, blindfolded ascents, etc...
Now : if you consider that for instance, trad climbing is not a sport, but rather a sort of yoga-like discipline, or a form of art, or a traditional dance up the rocks, i'm fine that in trad climbing chalk invalidates an ascent.
Just please don't apply the same logic to sport climbing, because it does not belong to it.
Otherwise, sport climbs wouldn't be cleaned from dirt and chosse before being made "public", and they woudn't even be bolted...
(ot : loose rock increase uncertainty to. Is a pre-cleaned face less "onsight" than the same face in its original chossy state?)
In reply to SteveSBlake:
Exactly!!
I fell off a route last week because the chalk led me up a blind alley - limestone face climb with holds everywhere. How does that fit in with the theory?
E
> (In reply to Enty)
> [...]
>
> Elder Crack, Right Eliminate, Five Finger Exercise, Suicide wall, Crack of Doom, y'know, those routes where the line's not too well defined! ;-0
>
> Steve
> [...]
>
> Elder Crack, Right Eliminate, Five Finger Exercise, Suicide wall, Crack of Doom, y'know, those routes where the line's not too well defined! ;-0
>
> Steve
Exactly!!
I fell off a route last week because the chalk led me up a blind alley - limestone face climb with holds everywhere. How does that fit in with the theory?
E
In reply to CragRat11: say what you like it cant possibly be onsite,its no different rom the chalk that was on Wellington Crack the other week..
In reply to ghisino: I get what you are saying now. I have little passion for sport and much for trad, so I suppose I am wrongly applying the idea to my sort of route. Which is a trad route.
Cool
Cool
In reply to Enty:
or, much more probably, you only notice it in those (rrelatively) rare cases of "too much chalk, it's all greasy" or "they chalked the wrong holds".
I don't say it does not happen, only that for one occasion where chalk marks mislead you, there must be at least three or four where they give you an advantage.
> (In reply to Enty)
>
> Ahh... just read Ghisino's post - I must have poor chalk reading skills wtf?
>
> E
>
> Ahh... just read Ghisino's post - I must have poor chalk reading skills wtf?
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> E
or, much more probably, you only notice it in those (rrelatively) rare cases of "too much chalk, it's all greasy" or "they chalked the wrong holds".
I don't say it does not happen, only that for one occasion where chalk marks mislead you, there must be at least three or four where they give you an advantage.
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