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Two-sided Triangle

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Removed User 15 Aug 2011
In a major change from the usual TPS is VS bollocks...

Two-sided Triangle. What grade if:

a) No use of the flake on the left, and no gear in it.

b) No use of the flake but a cam/nut in it

c) Use of the flake for gear + a cheeky pull here and there.

I would say:

a) E1 5b
b) HVS 5b
c) HVS 5a

What is the correct way to do it? Is this climb lamer than TPS?
 John_Hat 15 Aug 2011
In reply to Removed User:

Worryingly, I agree with the grades above Though whilst sticking gear in the flake makes you feel better (hence HVS) the problem would be you'd still hit that ledge on the way south and break your legs (hence NOT VS)
 Skyfall 15 Aug 2011
In reply to Removed User:

I did it as per your b) many years ago and agree that whilst 5b it wasn't E1. HVS probably, as you say.

This actually felt the natural way to climb it to me.

Yes, definitely a lamer route than TPS; as evidenced by the debate about what's in or out. At least with TPS, the debate is only really about grade (ignoring the slight variation finishes).
 Swig 15 Aug 2011
In reply to Removed User:

Lamer: It's a bit escapable but the moves are alright.

I think there's a least one harder move than the crux of TPS so 5b. (Leaving the flake out).

I did (b) just stepping left and sticking some gear in the bottom of the flake. I thought it was a soft E1. Escapable and not very satisfying but the moves are ok. Does the flake take gear higher up?

a) E1 5b (but daft to risk anything for this route)
b) E1 5b (soft)
c) ?
 LakesWinter 15 Aug 2011
In reply to Removed User:

b is the correct way to do the climb as it's not a side runner if you can reach it and place it from the route in question.

Also the route is a shite line with a couple of decent moves.
 Offwidth 15 Aug 2011
In reply to MattG: We graded it in the Froggatt guide without the 'side-runner'. I take your point but b) and c) are both a cop-out.
 Swig 15 Aug 2011
In reply to Offwidth:

Maybe a cop out but it doesn't seem like a good line to excessively risk injury on and the side runner is trivial to place.
 John_Hat 15 Aug 2011
In reply to Swig:

Could be said of a lot of routes. Plenty of harder routes are next to something easy which you can stuff with gear. Not sure of your point?

 gingerwolf 15 Aug 2011
In reply to Swig:
> (In reply to Offwidth)
>
> Maybe a cop out but it doesn't seem like a good line to excessively risk injury on and the side runner is trivial to place.

I agree, cant afford broken legs - it isnt worth it!
however, i think this route is a bit crap anyway - much rather do 3PS anyway!
 Swig 16 Aug 2011
In reply to John_Hat:

Yep. And you top rope most grit routes. What's your point?

Seriously, I understand your point, but for me, keeping this particular route pure by omitting an easily placed side runner wasn't worth it.
 John_Hat 16 Aug 2011
In reply to Swig:
> (In reply to John_Hat)
>
> Yep. And you top rope most grit routes. What's your point?

Not sure of you comment here. I top-rope grit routes very occasionally (1 so far this year) when they are E5-and-above with no gear, and its always with the intention of subsequently leading them. Otherwise I always on-sight lead or more normally on-sight solo.

>
> Seriously, I understand your point, but for me, keeping this particular route pure by omitting an easily placed side runner wasn't worth it.

Fair enough, horses for courses I am deeply unstressed about this particular route and have done it both with and without the side runner. What other's do is entirely up to them and bothers me not at all
 Offwidth 16 Aug 2011
In reply to Swig:

So are the siderunners on Chalk Storm or Impossible Slab or any other number of routes normally graded without the side runner. People are free to climb how they want.
 Swig 16 Aug 2011
In reply to Offwidth:

Yes, and I've seen grades including the "normally used" siderunner.
 Offwidth 16 Aug 2011
In reply to Swig:

Peoples' concepts of 'normal' differ. For a start I suspect a sizable number of ascents are solo or highball.

In our view the challenge and quality of the route was best appreciated without a side-runner.
 Swig 16 Aug 2011
In reply to Offwidth:

I think normal is a fairly widely understood concept. The difficulty is acquiring statistics about the styles of ascent that the route gets.

I've now spent more time discussing the route than climbing the bugger! I'd have got to this point much sooner if I hadn't faffed around with that siderunner.
 Offwidth 16 Aug 2011
In reply to Swig:

I think normal is a very much abused word and what is normal for one person is different from another and the reality in our example is indeed hard to define. Thing about solos is they happen quickly and often at quiet times and more often than not as an nth ascent. In contrast siderunner faffers (I've been there too) can be there for some time and will be less likely to want to do it again.

The discussion time is fine unless you could be climbing...
In reply to Removed User:

This is genius; it's like a meta troll.
 teflonpete 16 Aug 2011
In reply to Removed User:

My mate led it and placed gear where this guy has and then fell off from about where matey is in this picture.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=178782

He didn't hurt himself, came down, pulled the ropes and re-led it clean on the pre-placed gear.

I led it after him on the same pre-placed gear (having led TPS a little while before). It said HVS5b in Rockfax so that's what we figured it was. It was my 3rd lead at the grade at the end of my first summer's climbing and I didn't know about the ethics of grades only counting for the onsight and all that back then.

FWIW, I agree with your grading and think it's definitely not as satisying as TPS.

Personally, I think CMC slab at the side of Heather Wall with a side runner placed in the Heather Wall Crack at each of the breaks makes a more satisfying slab climb at HVS, but each to their own.
 Ropeboy 17 Aug 2011
In reply to :

Wasn't the first ascent a solo by Gary Gibson?
I think that says a lot about what gear (or not) is allowed.
I've done it as a solo without recourse to the flake and makes for a good line.

J
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