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This video of Arnaud Petit making the first traditional ascent (FTA?) of The black bean, 8b, in the Biographie sector at Céüse, France. It's also the perfect illustration to why it's so much more difficult to climb 8b trad compared to 8b sport, especially so when there are only 9 possible spots for...Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=63953
In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC:
Wow. Inspirational stuff! E10 looks a little conservative... what is the holding power of those tufas rally like?
Wow. Inspirational stuff! E10 looks a little conservative... what is the holding power of those tufas rally like?
In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC: Wicked vid.
In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC:
Wow - that is pretty Awesome. I like Arnoud's expression " a bit stressful..."
Wow - that is pretty Awesome. I like Arnoud's expression " a bit stressful..."
In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC:
That's pretty awesome. Notice he had a quickdraw just in case tho. As would I!
Cannot wait to get to ceuse one day.
That's pretty awesome. Notice he had a quickdraw just in case tho. As would I!
Cannot wait to get to ceuse one day.
In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC:
Terrific ascent! If not terrifying...
On a side note: Krab clipped to a krab doesn't look like a good idea.
Terrific ascent! If not terrifying...
On a side note: Krab clipped to a krab doesn't look like a good idea.
In reply to Alkis:
Why is that? Its a myth.
> (In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC)
>
> Terrific ascent! If not terrifying...
>
>
> On a side note: Krab clipped to a krab doesn't look like a good idea.
>
> Terrific ascent! If not terrifying...
>
>
> On a side note: Krab clipped to a krab doesn't look like a good idea.
Why is that? Its a myth.
In reply to snoop6060:
A myth perpetuated by the instructions for many karabiners I've bought. But I think you could be right, for aluminium ones at least.
A myth perpetuated by the instructions for many karabiners I've bought. But I think you could be right, for aluminium ones at least.
In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC:
2 ropes, 2 belayers, peculiar double cams, hauling gear up halfway, alot of work no?
Made for good watching I suppose with those loooooong run outs but I don't find it nearly as impressive as the recent ground up/onsights at Pembroke and the Lakes...
All that faff..
Still maybe it'll rub off the French (unlikely) and they'll take a more rounded approach to equipping and first ascents and the like..
As stated; unlikely.
2 ropes, 2 belayers, peculiar double cams, hauling gear up halfway, alot of work no?
Made for good watching I suppose with those loooooong run outs but I don't find it nearly as impressive as the recent ground up/onsights at Pembroke and the Lakes...
All that faff..
Still maybe it'll rub off the French (unlikely) and they'll take a more rounded approach to equipping and first ascents and the like..
As stated; unlikely.
In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC:
Clocked this yesterday on UKB, awesome!
Why is there "nothing traditional about placing cams and nuts in limestone rock..."?
I placed loads in the Dolomites a month and a half ago?
Its perhaps not as compact as Ceuse (which is why I was following mainly cracks and corners and had no 15m run-outs), but thats a sweeping statement that is wrong.
Clocked this yesterday on UKB, awesome!
Why is there "nothing traditional about placing cams and nuts in limestone rock..."?
I placed loads in the Dolomites a month and a half ago?
Its perhaps not as compact as Ceuse (which is why I was following mainly cracks and corners and had no 15m run-outs), but thats a sweeping statement that is wrong.
In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC:
Mmmmh...
> To call this a traditional ascent is perhaps wrong, as there is nothing traditional about placing cams and nuts in limestone rock...
Mmmmh...
In reply to TheAvenger:
Placing the gear may be traditional, but climbing the route on bolts first, working out all the gear placements then redpointing it on gear is most certainly not.
But its a still a mindblowing effort, that's a bloody big and hard route!
Placing the gear may be traditional, but climbing the route on bolts first, working out all the gear placements then redpointing it on gear is most certainly not.
But its a still a mindblowing effort, that's a bloody big and hard route!
In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC: Lovely climbing.
"This long section without protection is exciting"! Vraiment
"This long section without protection is exciting"! Vraiment
In reply to Cornelius Kite:
Yeah, "exciting" when facing a 30m fall is some way of putting it! I'm surprised he managed to climb this hauling such a big pair of brass balls... :-P
Yeah, "exciting" when facing a 30m fall is some way of putting it! I'm surprised he managed to climb this hauling such a big pair of brass balls... :-P
In reply to Jon Read:
My thoughts exactly. I'm guessing he hasn't done many calculations as to the loads generated by a 13.5deg cam when taking a big whipper. Or maybe he has and he's got nuts like pineapples.
In any event, chapeau!
<doffs cap>
> [...] what is the holding power of those tufas rally like?
My thoughts exactly. I'm guessing he hasn't done many calculations as to the loads generated by a 13.5deg cam when taking a big whipper. Or maybe he has and he's got nuts like pineapples.
In any event, chapeau!
<doffs cap>
In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC:
Inspiring stuff. Has given me the footsweats, socks and shoes off time!
Inspiring stuff. Has given me the footsweats, socks and shoes off time!
In reply to 999thAndy: I take it you saw the big whipper at about 10min 30sec? Couldn't tell what he was falling onto, presume the kit near the first belay station.
In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC:
His name is Arnaud, not Arnoud.
You might like to correct that mistake.
> This video of Arnoud Petit making the first traditional ascent..
His name is Arnaud, not Arnoud.
You might like to correct that mistake.
In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC:
Jesus, an 80m trad pitch! No wonder he dropped the first rope, that drag would have been immense.
Not sure I would have liked to fall on the 'gift from nature' thread. Bon effort.
Jesus, an 80m trad pitch! No wonder he dropped the first rope, that drag would have been immense.
Not sure I would have liked to fall on the 'gift from nature' thread. Bon effort.
In reply to Jon Read:
It looks like the hole that marks the first gear since the belay chains, so it was onto the "only bomber gear on the route" according to him. I don't imagine he took many whippers onto the flake or tufas!
It looks like the hole that marks the first gear since the belay chains, so it was onto the "only bomber gear on the route" according to him. I don't imagine he took many whippers onto the flake or tufas!
In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC: I simply have no idea what to say
In reply to mloskot:
What has he ever done on grit?
> (In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC) I simply have no idea what to say
What has he ever done on grit?
In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC: What a manic! What a video! Effort.
In reply to Jon Read:
I didn't see that. I just checked on the CC website to see if P. Harding's article on the forces generated by gear taking falls, but P66 - 71 of the 1996 Journal isn't online . Anyways the important thing is that somewhere near unity fall factor and depending on degree of flaring the sideways load on that tufa will be in the range 5 - 10x Arnaud's bodyweight. I'm no geologist but I always thought tufas were like stalactites - i.e pretty damn fragile and I for one wouldn't risk it.
> (In reply to 999thAndy) I take it you saw the big whipper at about 10min 30sec? Couldn't tell what he was falling onto, presume the kit near the first belay station.
I didn't see that. I just checked on the CC website to see if P. Harding's article on the forces generated by gear taking falls, but P66 - 71 of the 1996 Journal isn't online . Anyways the important thing is that somewhere near unity fall factor and depending on degree of flaring the sideways load on that tufa will be in the range 5 - 10x Arnaud's bodyweight. I'm no geologist but I always thought tufas were like stalactites - i.e pretty damn fragile and I for one wouldn't risk it.
In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC: I like the handmade topo with 'E10 7a' on. Maybe that's where I'm going wrong? I need to create a diagram in advance of the route, complete with numbering and colour coding for each piece of gear
In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC: Fantastic video !
Smooth, very smooth. And well filmed as well, I'd like to see "the making of" to see how they filmed it from so many different angles.
In reply to mvr:
Thought so too i wonder if he red id some sequences off bolts for the final edit as there is some very good pulling focus as he reaches for 2 finger pockets and perfect composition stuff going on. Any body want to be filmed doing this at Malham? You could make up for lack of tufa's by using blutack.
Thought so too i wonder if he red id some sequences off bolts for the final edit as there is some very good pulling focus as he reaches for 2 finger pockets and perfect composition stuff going on. Any body want to be filmed doing this at Malham? You could make up for lack of tufa's by using blutack.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Or Dave 'there's nowt harder than E9' Birkett, with fag in mouth.
Seriously though, what a stunning route. Seems like Pearson's assertion that with a bit of Euro sport fitness, trad can be taken to a new level - is right on the mark.
> (In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC)
>
> Wonder if Dave M will be in there next summer to downgrade it?!
>
> jcm
>
> Wonder if Dave M will be in there next summer to downgrade it?!
>
> jcm
Or Dave 'there's nowt harder than E9' Birkett, with fag in mouth.
Seriously though, what a stunning route. Seems like Pearson's assertion that with a bit of Euro sport fitness, trad can be taken to a new level - is right on the mark.
According to the topo he uses 2 different types of cams, camolots and totems (new manufacturers of alien cams), and there are numerous climbs that mention specific protection. Llanberries at Tremadog a Jonny Dawes climb is an example.
One interesting point is his comment about getting the belayer to run if he fell at a specific point to shorten the rope. This sounds like a rather dodgy plan
One interesting point is his comment about getting the belayer to run if he fell at a specific point to shorten the rope. This sounds like a rather dodgy plan
In reply to Mr Lopez:
I don't remember, I'd need to re-watch the Hard Grit (he's featured there).
However...Arnaud Petit from interview for Polish climbing paper:
"At some moment I was able to onsight 8a in trainers"
http://wspinanie.pl/serwis/201106/16arnaud-petit-interview.php
I remember he was showing off in trainers on British ground too, perhaps in grit
> (In reply to mloskot)
> [...]
>
> What has he ever done on grit?
> [...]
>
> What has he ever done on grit?
I don't remember, I'd need to re-watch the Hard Grit (he's featured there).
However...Arnaud Petit from interview for Polish climbing paper:
"At some moment I was able to onsight 8a in trainers"
http://wspinanie.pl/serwis/201106/16arnaud-petit-interview.php
I remember he was showing off in trainers on British ground too, perhaps in grit
In reply to Alkis:
And if I'm not mistaken I saw some extenders that were cut dyneema with overhand knots on the ends... I was always under the impression this was very bad idea as dyneema is so slippy knots can come undone.
> (In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC)
>
> Terrific ascent! If not terrifying...
>
>
> On a side note: Krab clipped to a krab doesn't look like a good idea.
>
> Terrific ascent! If not terrifying...
>
>
> On a side note: Krab clipped to a krab doesn't look like a good idea.
And if I'm not mistaken I saw some extenders that were cut dyneema with overhand knots on the ends... I was always under the impression this was very bad idea as dyneema is so slippy knots can come undone.
In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC:
I'd have been a lot more impressed if he had chopped the bolts before leading it. I mean he had a potential bail out every few moves. Hardly any commitment at all. Total lightweight.
I'd have been a lot more impressed if he had chopped the bolts before leading it. I mean he had a potential bail out every few moves. Hardly any commitment at all. Total lightweight.
In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC:Great video....practice makes perfect.I still claim that practice reduces the difficulty of a climb by at least two grades.Trad used to be on sight ground up and find the placements,carring what you think you might need.
In reply to Alkis:
Are you suggesting that the woos is even scared of a load of irate skinny sport climbers?
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
> That would have probably resulted in his death, and not by climbing.
>
> That would have probably resulted in his death, and not by climbing.
Are you suggesting that the woos is even scared of a load of irate skinny sport climbers?
In reply to JH74:
What a prat. You don't know what you're talking about. Better to remain silent in that case.
> Still maybe it'll rub off [sic] the French (unlikely) and they'll take a more rounded approach to equipping and first ascents and the like..
>
> As stated; unlikely.
>
> As stated; unlikely.
What a prat. You don't know what you're talking about. Better to remain silent in that case.
what ever the guy's method of climbing the route it is a step in the right direction if you are a purest, a reminder to the climbing community that if you have the bottle you can achieve great things. Someone somewhere may now step up and onsight the route in a totally trad style (and chop the bolts.. thereafter..that would make another interesting forum !!). It does prove that bolting a route is just a safe way of climbing a rockface and that really at some point in the future that bolted route can be climbed free by someone with the talent and a huge amount of self belief.... accept this accent for what it is, an amazing climb. practiced or not, safe cop out at hand or not the skill and commitment required to climb it in that style is to be applauded.
In reply to mrjonathanr:
Well put, my sentiments exactly.
> (In reply to JH74)
>
> [...]
>
> What a prat. You don't know what you're talking about. Better to remain silent in that case.
>
> [...]
>
> What a prat. You don't know what you're talking about. Better to remain silent in that case.
Well put, my sentiments exactly.
In reply to Gaz McShee: I think you are reading too much into it. There is no evidence that Arnaud was using this ascent to make some kind of anti-bolt statement.
In reply to Morgan Woods: Soz Morgan, I was just poking fun at the possible uproar that chopping the bolts would cause not dismissing the ethics of the climber. Whatever your climbing background there is no doubt that bolting routes has pushed the standards of what is possible on rock and many people can climb far more difficult routes than they would using trad methods it just goes to show that even the hardest routes are climbable free.
In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC:
Absolutely fantastic bit of film-making; one of the best bits of climbing material I've ever seen.
My heart is however sinking at the thought that some dickhead may well post the link as defence for their preposterous "you dont have to clip the bolts" defence of unilateral bolting...
Absolutely fantastic bit of film-making; one of the best bits of climbing material I've ever seen.
My heart is however sinking at the thought that some dickhead may well post the link as defence for their preposterous "you dont have to clip the bolts" defence of unilateral bolting...
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
Yes, Hakey will probably be along shortly....
> My heart is however sinking at the thought that some dickhead may well post the link as defence for their preposterous "you dont have to clip the bolts" defence of unilateral bolting...
Yes, Hakey will probably be along shortly....
In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC:
Great vid, but I was rather hoping for a naughty glimpse of Stephanie Bodet.
Great vid, but I was rather hoping for a naughty glimpse of Stephanie Bodet.
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
I would have liked it to feature more of his wife because, frankly, she's luuuuuurvvvvely. But the films shows why she went for the M. Petit. What a dude!
> Absolutely fantastic bit of film-making;
I would have liked it to feature more of his wife because, frankly, she's luuuuuurvvvvely. But the films shows why she went for the M. Petit. What a dude!
It certainly is very impressive, powerful but controlled climbing.
But it just comes over as French showmanship. Climbing as performance art as opposed to an individual exercise.
He's climbing on a sport cliff, in a region where on limestone, it's expected that lines will be bolted regardless of the availability of natural pro.
And the line's bolted anyway.
I'm all for trad climbing, and I've done plenty myself (brought up on grit, graduated on Llanberis and Gogarth), but that just seems like a quixotic gesture.
But it just comes over as French showmanship. Climbing as performance art as opposed to an individual exercise.
He's climbing on a sport cliff, in a region where on limestone, it's expected that lines will be bolted regardless of the availability of natural pro.
And the line's bolted anyway.
I'm all for trad climbing, and I've done plenty myself (brought up on grit, graduated on Llanberis and Gogarth), but that just seems like a quixotic gesture.
In reply to Animal:
>
Yes, and what a fantastic bit of performance art it was to.
>
>
> But it just comes over as French showmanship. Climbing as performance art as opposed to an individual exercise.
>
> But it just comes over as French showmanship. Climbing as performance art as opposed to an individual exercise.
>
Yes, and what a fantastic bit of performance art it was to.
In reply to TobyA: Agreed. Mme Stephanie est tres belle...
http://www.kairn.com/images/articles.img?id=1465
Maybe I'D climb F8a trad-style with HER holding my rope-end?
http://www.kairn.com/images/articles.img?id=1465
Maybe I'D climb F8a trad-style with HER holding my rope-end?
In reply to Animal:
No different to any other head point really, other than the fact that he could, should he choose to, clip into a bolt if he got in trouble.
> But it just comes over as French showmanship. Climbing as performance art as opposed to an individual exercise.
No different to any other head point really, other than the fact that he could, should he choose to, clip into a bolt if he got in trouble.
In reply to andybenham:
What? Like he did when he took the massive winger on the end credits???
What? Like he did when he took the massive winger on the end credits???
In reply to creag: Yeah, but what's he ever fallen off on grit?
In reply to Cornelius Kite:
Didn't fancy the look of the double sideways nuts at the chain, especially as he was untieing thhe rope!
Didn't fancy the look of the double sideways nuts at the chain, especially as he was untieing thhe rope!
In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC: If anyone out there is wondering who Arnaud is and what he has done check out Parois De Legende the World edition. 100 of the worlds greatest multi pitch routes. Sport, Trad and Altitude including Trango and Salto Angel. Countries covered in his travels are Italy, Swiss, France, Italy again (Sardinia), Spain, Marocco, Algeria, Mali, Namibia, Madagascar, Jordan, Turkey, Canada, USA, Mexico,Brazil, Chlie, Pakistan and Venezuela. It is an absolute must for anyone who wants some holiday ticks. There are routes for everyone with grades from 6.....into the upper 8's. Currently it is only available in French.
Oh yeah he has climbed on the grit but funnily enough Valkyrie didnt make it into the list
Oh yeah he has climbed on the grit but funnily enough Valkyrie didnt make it into the list
In reply to Owen W-G:
Really? I thought they looked pretty bomber - certainly more so than any other bits of gear on the route.
> (In reply to Cornelius Kite)
>
> Didn't fancy the look of the double sideways nuts at the chain, especially as he was untieing thhe rope!
>
> Didn't fancy the look of the double sideways nuts at the chain, especially as he was untieing thhe rope!
Really? I thought they looked pretty bomber - certainly more so than any other bits of gear on the route.
In reply to andybenham: oh dear.
In reply to whoever made the comment about the french: double oh dear.
seriously impressive climb from a wonderful climber. nuff said.
In reply to whoever made the comment about the french: double oh dear.
seriously impressive climb from a wonderful climber. nuff said.
In reply to Michael Gordon:
I thought they looked decidedly dodgy; not a lot of contact!
> (In reply to Owen W-G)
> [...]
>
> Really? I thought they looked pretty bomber - certainly more so than any other bits of gear on the route.
> [...]
>
> Really? I thought they looked pretty bomber - certainly more so than any other bits of gear on the route.
I thought they looked decidedly dodgy; not a lot of contact!
In reply to gaz parry:
Gaz, depending on which Valkyrie you mean, in Froggatt or Roaches, I'm surprised
> Oh yeah he has climbed on the grit but funnily enough Valkyrie
> didnt make it into the list
> didnt make it into the list
Gaz, depending on which Valkyrie you mean, in Froggatt or Roaches, I'm surprised
In reply to Animal:
I reckon most climbs are essentially quixotic gestures; the whole activity is ultimately meaningless in the grand scheme of things. But kinda fun while you're doing it...
> I'm all for trad climbing, and I've done plenty myself (brought up on grit, graduated on Llanberis and Gogarth), but that just seems like a quixotic gesture.
I reckon most climbs are essentially quixotic gestures; the whole activity is ultimately meaningless in the grand scheme of things. But kinda fun while you're doing it...
In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC: Amazing effort! Video had my hands sweating like so many other people on here.
The big whipper is surely onto the good gear at the chain as the pocket he lets go of (or falls off) is the one where the hand+foot+purple cam action goes on.
I think its sad that people on this forum just want to believe this is a showing off act. Are you just jealous of this mans amazing abilities? Or does he not warrant your respect till he has chopped the bolts and led it again without them in place?
Whoever said it was possible to climb at the highest level on trad as well as bolts: This is 8b, not 9b, so no. The hardest sport routes will always be harder than the hardest trad routes (and you can quote me on that :P ).
The big whipper is surely onto the good gear at the chain as the pocket he lets go of (or falls off) is the one where the hand+foot+purple cam action goes on.
I think its sad that people on this forum just want to believe this is a showing off act. Are you just jealous of this mans amazing abilities? Or does he not warrant your respect till he has chopped the bolts and led it again without them in place?
Whoever said it was possible to climb at the highest level on trad as well as bolts: This is 8b, not 9b, so no. The hardest sport routes will always be harder than the hardest trad routes (and you can quote me on that :P ).
In reply to gaz parry:
Also, some further interesting stuff on his and Stéphanie Bodet's site here:
http://www.vagabondsdelaverticale.com/
> (In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC) If anyone out there is wondering who Arnaud is and what he has done ....
Also, some further interesting stuff on his and Stéphanie Bodet's site here:
http://www.vagabondsdelaverticale.com/
In reply to Fraser: Fantastic link! From there I can watch Stéphanie and a wacky French chap dressed in yellow lycra! http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gS3g4G_Vepo This has significantly brightened my day.
And are there some actual easy routes at Ceuse?!
And are there some actual easy routes at Ceuse?!
In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC: Its a great effort, but is this sort of thing to be encouraged? The talk of breaking flakes and fragile tufas suggests that the route might be damaged more by trad then by sport. Wouldn't it be a shame if what looks like a brilliant route was damaged by an expanding cam?
In reply to TobyA:
There's also a link to the trailer for 'Tough Enough', a video of the pair and 2 others doing immense stuff in Madagascar. Not seen it for a while, but worth a second peek.
There's also a link to the trailer for 'Tough Enough', a video of the pair and 2 others doing immense stuff in Madagascar. Not seen it for a while, but worth a second peek.
In reply to Robert Durran:
Well maybe. I suppose anything would be welcome after the runout from those tufa cams!
Well maybe. I suppose anything would be welcome after the runout from those tufa cams!
In reply to JKinsella:
It's quite common already, especially in the USA.
That be true.
> (In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC) Its a great effort, but is this sort of thing to be encouraged?
It's quite common already, especially in the USA.
> Wouldn't it be a shame if what looks like a brilliant route was damaged by an expanding cam?
That be true.
In reply to Gaz McShee: And 'great things' are not achieved by sport climbers?
In reply to Anoetic: Think its Fixe that are the new manufacturers of Aliens.
In reply to Animal: He says as much at the end - a vain pursuit...
In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC: excellent video but the chap could really use a big set of tricams
In reply to ksjs: I'm sure I said that bolts have pushed what is possible on rock so yes sport climbers have achieved great things, but the rock was there before the bolt and surely a clean accent is the holy grail and many sport climbers would not be climbers if the safety of bolts was not present. Having spent many years soloing up to E3 until I fell off a VS and shot both legs I can say that I know just what it takes to climb whilst trying not to worry about the consiquence of a fall and I still solo to this day (but with extra baggage). This climb is as I said amazing and a step forward.
In reply to Gaz McShee: Yes, a 'clean ascent' (trad) may be considered the holy grail but that view raises various problems:
It denigrates some amazing, ie equivalent to olympic gold / world record / world champion, efforts and appears to belittle sport climbing generally.
Would there be 9b/+ climbing without bolts?
Would there be E11/12 without bolts?
Some people don't climb trad and never really get the chance. Should they be denied sport routes?
Do we never bolt anything in case it can be done on natural gear at some point in the future?
What about just going out and enjoying the physical (athletic, technical) aspects of climbing without being overly occupied by risk? That's a valid form of climbing and as with many things, it's healthy and natural that there is a spectrum of choice.
There's room for everyone and everything and having a hard and fast rule that says x is better than y seems too rigid.
It denigrates some amazing, ie equivalent to olympic gold / world record / world champion, efforts and appears to belittle sport climbing generally.
Would there be 9b/+ climbing without bolts?
Would there be E11/12 without bolts?
Some people don't climb trad and never really get the chance. Should they be denied sport routes?
Do we never bolt anything in case it can be done on natural gear at some point in the future?
What about just going out and enjoying the physical (athletic, technical) aspects of climbing without being overly occupied by risk? That's a valid form of climbing and as with many things, it's healthy and natural that there is a spectrum of choice.
There's room for everyone and everything and having a hard and fast rule that says x is better than y seems too rigid.
In reply to ksjs:
You also have to consider the cultural difference. A "clean ascent" (trad) is not always the holy grail or the purest form of climbing outside of the UK, and especially not in France. A huge majority of the French crags are bolted and most of the trad climbing happens while mountaineering or on multi pitch mountain type routes.
French people don't consider sport climbing is a lesser form of climbing and a nice onsight of a sport pitch is just as "clean" as that of a trad pitch. I'm pretty sure Arnaud Petit would genuinely be wondering why someone would say that we can now "chop the bolts" on that route.
This whole Trad vs Sport thing really is a UK (and to a lesser extend US) problem. The rest of the world seems quite happy with climbing.
You also have to consider the cultural difference. A "clean ascent" (trad) is not always the holy grail or the purest form of climbing outside of the UK, and especially not in France. A huge majority of the French crags are bolted and most of the trad climbing happens while mountaineering or on multi pitch mountain type routes.
French people don't consider sport climbing is a lesser form of climbing and a nice onsight of a sport pitch is just as "clean" as that of a trad pitch. I'm pretty sure Arnaud Petit would genuinely be wondering why someone would say that we can now "chop the bolts" on that route.
This whole Trad vs Sport thing really is a UK (and to a lesser extend US) problem. The rest of the world seems quite happy with climbing.
In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC:
This was a stunning watch and makes me want to weep. I've been away from climbing for too long. Watching this affirms that.
This was a stunning watch and makes me want to weep. I've been away from climbing for too long. Watching this affirms that.
In reply to Animal:
Vive la France!
Vive la France!
In reply to Seb: As I mentioned earlier I was poking fun at the fact that chopping bolts would cause quite a stir...... judging by a few reactions I was right.
In reply to ksjs: 9b/+ under the current grading system would not exist without bolts. there are a Very small amount of climbers who can / could climb E11/E12 without bolts, there are also people who can/could climb 9b/+ on bolts and E11/E12 trad. No one should ever be denied the chance to achieve their goals ! As this climb proves sport and trad can exist along side each other (please observe local ethics !! ) And to be totally honest in this day and age with the amount of indoor walls around there should be no need for anyone to miss out on the chance to climb if they wish without ever touching real rock. Oh and I also climb bolted routes and know that I feel more alive after a trad/solo accent than a sport route. Try it you may get a surprise.
In reply to Gaz McShee:
Comedian, or just parading your ignorance?
I can't believe some of the things I'm reading in response to Petit's amazing ascent.
> (In reply to ksjs) many sport climbers would not be climbers if the safety of bolts was not present. Having spent many years soloing up to E3
Comedian, or just parading your ignorance?
I can't believe some of the things I'm reading in response to Petit's amazing ascent.
In reply to mrjonathanr: please read all my posts, you may find that I to am amazed by this guy's accent.
In reply to Gaz McShee:
What's so special about it? He just sounded French to me.
> you may find that I to am amazed by this guy's accent.
What's so special about it? He just sounded French to me.
In reply to TobyA: haha, nice to know the karma police haven't taken everyone.
In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC:
ive watched it 3 times now and am captivated by it, both the route and the guys attitude to it.
only question i have is: what does alex honnold think?
ive watched it 3 times now and am captivated by it, both the route and the guys attitude to it.
only question i have is: what does alex honnold think?
In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC: A fantastic effort, no question. As an American, I'm a bit surprised at some of the debate over here, since the ascent is, to my eyes, the equivalent of British headpointing, except of course the climb itself is so much longer. This site has plenty of reports of "trad leads" of routes that where assiduously top-roped before they were led with gear, and this effort is fundamentally no different.
Of course, calling any of these trad ascents raises the newly contentious question of what trad is, with most people who grew up doing trad climbing feeling that trad is not synonymous with the use of removeable gear, and that one might even need a term like "gear climbing" to distinguish things like this ascent from "traditional trad."
As for chopping the bolts, with all due respect, that is preposterous. The bolts were an essential part of the ascent. They were needed for both the rehearsal of the moves and the locating and rehearsal of the gear placements, and this is part of why this can't really be viewed as a trad ascent, at least not in the traditional sense of the term. (I know, I've now coined the term "trad trad.")
None of this is meant to detract in any way from the feat itself as a fantastic headpointing accomplishment.
Of course, calling any of these trad ascents raises the newly contentious question of what trad is, with most people who grew up doing trad climbing feeling that trad is not synonymous with the use of removeable gear, and that one might even need a term like "gear climbing" to distinguish things like this ascent from "traditional trad."
As for chopping the bolts, with all due respect, that is preposterous. The bolts were an essential part of the ascent. They were needed for both the rehearsal of the moves and the locating and rehearsal of the gear placements, and this is part of why this can't really be viewed as a trad ascent, at least not in the traditional sense of the term. (I know, I've now coined the term "trad trad.")
None of this is meant to detract in any way from the feat itself as a fantastic headpointing accomplishment.
In reply to henwardian:
No. It's a great sequence of hard, gymnastic moves.
Just saying clip the bolts and enjoy the moves as is the tradition in those parts.
> Are you just jealous of this mans amazing abilities? Or does he not warrant your respect till he has chopped the bolts and led it again without them in place?
No. It's a great sequence of hard, gymnastic moves.
Just saying clip the bolts and enjoy the moves as is the tradition in those parts.
In reply to Gaz McShee: 9b/+ could exist without bolts just like you can get 8a climbing on an E8 for example. By the way I do climb trad and have soloed a couple of things so I have some idea of what I'm talking about.
Your post(s), no offence, seem a bit confused; I'm not saying trad and sport can't co-exist while you previously seemed to suggest not bolting stuff because it prevents future generations from climbing E15 or whatever.
Your post(s), no offence, seem a bit confused; I'm not saying trad and sport can't co-exist while you previously seemed to suggest not bolting stuff because it prevents future generations from climbing E15 or whatever.
In reply to rgold: Now I'm really confused: surely trad is synonymous with removeable gear?
In reply to ksjs:
Not if you are an American of a certain age.
> (In reply to rgold) Now I'm really confused: surely trad is synonymous with removeable gear?
Not if you are an American of a certain age.
In reply to flaneur:
Interesting. Could you elaborate on that, please?
> (In reply to ksjs)
> [...]
>
> Not if you are an American of a certain age.
> [...]
>
> Not if you are an American of a certain age.
Interesting. Could you elaborate on that, please?
In reply to robinsi197:
I think in the States "trad" can be more to do with being established ground up rather than with preinspection, so ground up bolting would be deemed trad whereas bolting on rappel and preinspection on a top rope might not be.
I think in the States "trad" can be more to do with being established ground up rather than with preinspection, so ground up bolting would be deemed trad whereas bolting on rappel and preinspection on a top rope might not be.
In reply to ksjs:
Depends how easily you can get the pegs out again!
> (In reply to rgold) Now I'm really confused: surely trad is synonymous with removeable gear?
Depends how easily you can get the pegs out again!
In reply to robinsi197:
The origin of the term "trad" is from an article by Tom Higgins in Ascent in the mid 80s. The article is called 'tricksters and traditionalists' and is available online.
The term was intended to refer to the style of climbing rather than the type of protection. This seems to me to be a much more meaningful distinction that its current usage, but it is rare (over here at least) to find anyone who uses it in the original sense.
> Interesting. Could you elaborate on that, please?
The origin of the term "trad" is from an article by Tom Higgins in Ascent in the mid 80s. The article is called 'tricksters and traditionalists' and is available online.
The term was intended to refer to the style of climbing rather than the type of protection. This seems to me to be a much more meaningful distinction that its current usage, but it is rare (over here at least) to find anyone who uses it in the original sense.
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