UKC

Hi,

I'm not a professional outdoor provider neither a qualified instructor, but I randomly monitor job postings in outdoor business. One thing strikes me frequently.

One of latest offers is on climbing instructor vacancy in London, the capital of wealthiness!

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=471254

The offer says: £8.22 per hour

It looks and feels not a bad rate, generally. It looks and feels little, specifically, in London.

Here is another offer at the Castle Climbing Centre in London:

http://www.castle-climbing.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view...

Given that it is a chef vacancy, starting at £9.50 per hour, it does feel this ~20% better indeed.

I wouldn't even dare to think chef job is less involving in terms of skill and effort, but comparing both offers leads to an impression there is something wrong happening around. However, what I'm sure about is that climbing instructor is more risky, puts more responsibility on instructors shoulder, it needs constant professional skills development what is expansive as hell, because you can't learn this stuff from books and experimenting in your own kitchen...

The climbing game is way more popular now than ever, so one may think it's the golden age for outdoor providers. But, my own impression is slightly different, even if I'm sitting not entirely on the same side of the fence (I'm not instructor, but I am climber).

Reading this and stories like the one of Mike Barter, a homeless mountain guide, make me think only bad things about the whole situation on the market.

In reply to mloskot: It might be down to the fact that in the wider scheme of things climbing etc is a leisure activity .. I think most leisure jobs are poorly paid. Now that may be a generalization but I can't think of one highly paid leisure job? Unless of course say your the MD of a leisure company or a manager??

In reply to mloskot:

I think as was said above jobs in the leisure industry can be quite low paid unfortunately. As a comparison I know of people working in the equine industry as full time grooms. They get an old caravan to live in and work full time (often 6 and even 7 days a week at times) for £100 a week. They do it however because they love it and there are other perks such as riding the horses at the yards they work on etc. When looking at it like that £8.22/hour doesn't look too bad if you love climbing.

In reply to mloskot:

I think it's one of those things where you need to be at the top of the game to really make money. The kind of guys who did the camera crew rigging for the Great Climb and stuff like that.

I imagine the only people who make any money at climbing centers are the people who own it. Everyone else works there because it's a passion, it gets them close to climbing. (also free use of facilities etc, lets face it, most climbers are stingey)

In reply to mloskot:

When I worked in an outdoors shop, it used to annoy the hell out of me that I got paid the same (minimum!) wage as people filling shelves in supermarkets, despite being expected to have a fairly extensive product knowledge (range available and technical details) and customer-focussed skill set to be able to advise on appropriate equipment and fit, etc.

In reply to mloskot:
The higher pay may be compensation for fewer hours available and thus less earning potential.

In reply to andic:
and as previously stated free climbing must be worth a few quid ad to be able to take advantage with an hour straight after work is priceless

In reply to mloskot: All points taken and they seem to confirm what I experience myself. I wasn't actually asking for any kind of confirmation, just was being curiously frustrated

I might be biased and disappointed by the overrated and overpriced perspective of London.

Thanks!

In reply to mloskot:
Hi there, I have worked as a climbing instructor, multi activity instructor and raft guide for the last 5 years and your post struck a chord with me..
The wage advertised above is ,in my experience ,quite abit higher than what most outdoor and indoor centers pay but then it is in London so the general cost of living is higher.
I have found it pretty hard to find outdoor jobs in the UK that pays a reasonable wage..and by reasonable I mean one can afford to pay rent and eat and maybe run a car.

Thats not to say it's all bad though, as others have pointed out if you are working at a climbing centre you get to use it for free.. which is great for the first few months but if you have just put in a 9 hour day there then its quite hard to want to stay at work for another hours climbing and if you have a day off the last thing you feel like doing is going into work as its pretty inevitable that you'll end up covering a session or helping out around the centre in some way. The upside though is the amount of contacts you make, the people you meet and its never hard to find partners to go outdoors with.

To be honest though I have only worked at one climbing centre in the UK so it could be quite a different story at others.. the following is a run down of the various jobs i have been doing and what they pay.. Make of it what you will

First job at a multi activity centre in scotland: £60 a week with food and accommodation, 10 to 12 hours a day, 1 day off a week but due to staffing levels sometimes we would go two to three weeks with no days off.
If i had held any qualifications then i would have been on £100 a week.

Large multi activity centre in the South of France, I was head of climbing so had a better deal than most. £50 into bank account plus 70 euros cash in hand and accommodation (was a leaking tent, i provided my own gaffer tape) and food provided. One day off a week

Indoor climbing centre in the UK working full time as instructor, on reception, and route setting.
Wage was about £6.50 an hour working 4 days on 3 off but days were 9 hours days and days off were not 3 in a row.. take home was about £800 to £900 a month. I was living with my parents and paying pretty low rent to them.

Raft guide and multi activity instructor in Norway. paid by the hour about £10 to £12 depending on the exchange rate. Accommodation was cheap as it had once been a brothel (Seriously.) at £100 a month, no set hours though so if there were no clients then no one would get payed. I was lucky to get all the expedition work taking groups out of anything up to 7 days and would get a flat rate of £100 a day for that. Did two seasons there.

Raft guiding in Australia near Sydney. Payed about $22 an hour, i cant recall what that is in pounds but made enough to pay rent just and eat some food.. ended up moving to Bondi and finding an apartment with 10 Norwegian 20 year old girls and got a temp job as a bin man/ road sweeper.. great fun and very chilled

And now? i am working for a friend of mine doing carpet cleaning.. he pays better than any outdoor freelance work i can find at the moment and is also a climber so we usually knock off at 2 and go climbing.. this is short term though as i am saving up to do more qualifications.

From all of the above work i have never really made much money, i don't own a car or house or anything of value really (apart from a mountain of gear) but i would not swap any of it for anything..
A friend once told me " the amount of money you earn is inversely proportional to the amount of fun you having making it" (i think i have got that right.. if not you get the idea!)

Sorry for the poor spelling and general english above, please don't crucify me for it people of UKC!

Giles

In reply to mloskot:


Comparisons are odious - and quite irrelevant. Pay is generally determined by the value to the employer of the job being done, and the scarcity of the skills required.

There isn't some great committee of bureaucrats assessing the inherent worth and effort required for each given job, just as well since they would be guaranteed, Quango-style, to determine that the most difficult job, most deserving of high pay, wonderful perks, generous index-linked pension etc ... was being a bureaucrat. Employers pay what they need to get the job done.

Simon - who is paid by the hour, and if he doesn't work, or nobody wants his services, doesn't get paid.

In reply to mloskot: Fair enough.

Don't work in the climbing sector then

Supply and demand and all that.

In reply to mloskot:

The reason being is because climbing walls get hundreds of applicants a day. If a member of staff complains about the wages then the wall can replace them with somebody who is happy! Work at a climbing wall for 8quid or work at a pub for minimum wage? hmmm....

In reply to mloskot:

It seems from my experience the pay in the North West of England is far better than London, however London has a culture of having 'site specific' trained instructors, whereas in the North West most instructors are qualified SPA or CWA. So I think the rates are lower due to the need of qualified people being less, and use of site specific trained instructors being more easily accessible.

But that's just my 2pence worth.

In reply to gi:

So, are outdoor ed/ instructors exploited? Are the companies employing them making a mint?

Giles. Thanks for your honesty on here

In reply to Blizzard:

Yes and no .. some companies offer qualifications as part of the pay package but it's an absolute mission to make them actually follow though on them in my personal experience.
I think the wages are pretty low when you consider the amount of responsibility that is placed on an instructor, for instance its not just that you are looking after peoples lives in some cases but that you are at times risking yours, there are no pensions and if you are injured working then you don't get paid.. I know of a few people hurt though working in the outdoors industry and if its bad then you are off home, end of job.

Some of the people you meet and have to work with are unpleasant, at times threatening and can be very abusive..

And yet I get to live work and play in some amazing and very beautiful places make friends all over the world and travel. I know I'm one of the lucky one's to have ended up being able to have this kind of a life as there is many many people who have started down this road and been unable to make it past the first or second season due to the money being so poor.. I was lucky in a way that I was hit by a car a few years before doing a instructor training course and the insurance paid out just before i began it, otherwise i would have never been able to afford to pay for the qualifications i have.

Are people being exploited?.. in some centers undoubtedly yes but my feeling and approach is that if you're there are feel that way then you need to squeeze every bit of training, experience and opportunity to get out and have fun from the centre at possible.

It is strange though, apart from in Norway, I have yet to meet a centre manager or owner who is getting rich from the industry.. most seem to be able to provide for their family's and take a holiday once or twice a year but i have yet to meet anyone how is making over 30,000 at a guess.
Thinking about it i haven't met the people who own or run Acorn or PGL for instance so that could be a different matter.

In spite of all of the negative stuff I have put up here it is only a small facet of an extraordinary way of life and I would hate for anyone to read the above an be put of the idea of working as an instructor.

I'm happy to answer any questions about this sort of stuff but would rather not give names of companies as it is a small world and these are only my opinions.. as with everything there is no black and white

Giles

In reply to JimmyKay:

Genuine question.. have you worked at a wall or centre where this is the case?

Because I've heard this from people outside of the industry before but not from any of the centre managers or other instructors I know.
I've also never heard of anyone being sacked or persuaded to leave their job for complaining about wages..

Giles

In reply to gi:

I hope it didn't struck in any negative way. I didn't mean anything but expressing my own impressions.

Thanks Giles for sharing your experience, it's interesting. I've been thinking of going similar path since I was 18, but somehow, mostly by accidents of luck and lack of luck, I drifted in different direction. But I'm still dreaming of packing my bag, going to France or Switzerland and work as a guide...sometimes

Now, when you mentioned the apartment with 10 Norwegian 20 year old girls...I'll be thinking about that more often I guess

Cheers,
Mat

In reply to Simon4: Perhaps I wasn't clear, but I'm not trying to compare anything. I mean, my aim wasn't to compare for the sake of making scientifically proved conclusions. I'm comparing, let's say, my impressions after I saw the two referred job postings.

I understand the rules of market fairly well. Any job is worth as much as someone is willing to pay for it.

In reply to Wonko The Sane:

Simply, this topic just unveiled romantic side of my outsiderish personality that still believes in fair play and equality, etc.

(I used to live in a country driven by socialism,
so that may explain a lot )


Unfortunately, true.

In reply to mloskot: Sometimes it's not always about money or is it? I have a friend who earned around £24k as an outdoor instructor for a company, he hated it and so he set up his own outdoor company. In short he earns 50% less but, he is now his own boss, comes and goes as he pleases, has plenty of time off work and no doubt enjoys life more.

In reply to mloskot:

unfortunately its how it goes, reinforced by the fresh new polytech grads each summer who happily work for bugger all to get their hours up, believing they are being paid in 'lifestyle'.

'lifestyle'? yeah right. i know several high altitude guides - big names as both guides and climbers - who live on expedition partly because they earn so little its not worth going home.
and yet they hold the lives of dozens of people in their hands each season. people who are often in the six figure income bracket.

the money in guiding comes only when you go private, with select clients who book a process, not a one-off.

In reply to Jgh69:

Of course it is not. I'm miles away from saying it is.

In reply to ice.solo:

And those people own my all respect, it takes a lot of bravery to live your
dream, regardless of real life issues.

"It's better to live one day as a lion, than a thousand years as a lamb", I do believe so.

I must say, most of the answers I've received are encouraging and refreshing.

having been both a chef and a climbing instructor i can say that it is almost certainly harder per hour to chef. it was also more fun to instruct but what was said above about time off and under staffing is totally true, when i was a chef i worked 8 hour shifts 5 days a week, as an instructor the hours were much longer and i often worked 12days on the trot
from my experience though it didn't seam like anyone was making huge amounts of money. unfortunately climbing walls and activity centres have relatively high costs for replacing equipment and they still need to compete with pgl type places in which the activities are less involved so unqualified staff can be used. all of this effects wages.
but if your in the instructing business or working in a climbing shop then thats the price you pay for a more interesting job.

In reply to mloskot:

Haha! not necessarily in a negative way, more that it was something i have spent quite abit of time thinking about myself and discussing with other people.

I not sure the industry would function in its current state if people were paid 'normal' wages.. if they were then i imagine clients would be unable/refuse to pay the amounts required.

The apartment with the norwegians?.. it was pretty good im not gonna lie! getting home from work to find they'd baked cake and insisting i try some was a pretty regular event.. as was coming home to find most of the house hold in their swim-wear.. we lived close to the beach ,had no air-con and it was summer ..in all honesty though i have had even better set ups and fun times!

Depending on where you work and who with, the party lifestyle (especially in the rafting world) is one of the reasons people keep doing the work.. I have never seen anywhere quite like it when it comes to partying..

Giles

In reply to mloskot:

You are right to point this out. I worked as an Outdoor Pursuits Instructor for a few years many moons ago and the general consensus from employers was that they were almost doing you a favour - employing you in an area you enjoyed!

When the whole responsibility thing is thrown into the mix then it is difficult to understand why these wages have remained so low. It is testament to the quality of people still coming through that these low wages dont seem to attract poorly equipped instructors and we havnt had any Caingorm experiences of late!

I got qualified at Buxton and when there saw that to get decent terms and conditions you needed a teaching qualififcation and get work in an Authority run centre. Unfortunately there are not many of these centres left now and competition is high to get into them.

Btw when on teacher training I enjoyed teaching so much that I became a teacher!

In reply to mloskot:

Im not being mean when I say it. But come on, I worked in Greece teaching windsurfing when I was younger, I received £50 per week, food, a room (shared) and all the girls I could eat.

Hardly something I could complain about!

In reply to ice.solo:

Absolutely. The client who knows what they want, recognises the skills and empathy that a good guide brings...and is prepared to pay for what they want.