UKC

Loss of fixed pro affecting route grade

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 mlmatt 27 Sep 2011
Slowly fixed protection (in it's many forms, single bolt runners, pegs, slings, wooden wedges, stuck wires etc) is going to degrade to the point where it becomes unuseable or at least not safe enough to take a fall.

All I'd like to ask is what routes around the UKC would suffer (ie thier grade would have to increase/decrease) or the character of the route would change significantly if any fixed protection was removed after it had rotted out.

 Richard Hall 27 Sep 2011
In reply to mlmatt:

> All I'd like to ask is what routes around the UKC would suffer (ie thier grade would have to increase/decrease) or the character of the route would change significantly if any fixed protection was removed after it had rotted out.

A lot of routes at Avon. This is not allowed to happen on the better routes however. The gear is replaced.
In reply to mlmatt: That list would be far too long to post on here but some crags deserve a mention. Gogarth and the Avon Gorge spring to mind as do most sea cliffs with significant amounts of peg protection.

Al
 Jonny2vests 27 Sep 2011
In reply to mlmatt:
> Slowly fixed protection (in it's many forms, single bolt runners, pegs, slings, wooden wedges, stuck wires etc) is going to degrade to the point where it becomes unuseable...

Lost of stuff has already. Stuff in Huntsmans Leap for instance. Topically (and debatably although I've not been on it) Eroica.
OP mlmatt 27 Sep 2011
In reply to mlmatt:

I appreciate that there would quite clearly be alot of routes but so far no-one has named a single one. The thing is there has to be some classic routes or cases where this would/has happened.
 Jonny2vests 27 Sep 2011
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:
> (In reply to mlmatt) That list would be far too long to post on here but some crags deserve a mention. Gogarth and the Avon Gorge spring to mind as do most sea cliffs with significant amounts of peg protection.
>
> Al

Avon hasn't been a sea cliff since the Carboniferous. Yes, I did just Wikipedia that
 Jonny2vests 27 Sep 2011
In reply to mlmatt:
> (In reply to mlmatt)
>
> I appreciate that there would quite clearly be alot of routes but so far no-one has named a single one.

Ahem.
 Richard Hall 27 Sep 2011
In reply to mlmatt:
> (In reply to mlmatt)
>
> I appreciate that there would quite clearly be alot of routes but so far no-one has named a single one. The thing is there has to be some classic routes or cases where this would/has happened.

Well all the 1 and 2 bolt routes at Avon would go from E4/5/6 to E7/8/9. Do you really names?
 Richard Hall 27 Sep 2011
In reply to Richard Hall: But the fact is this won't happen in the near future as most the bolts have already been replaced and will be again if necessary.
In reply to jonny2vests: What! Not even Sea Walls?

Al
 agibb 27 Sep 2011
In reply to mlmatt:

I was part of an interesting discussion on this very topic last night. A few thoughts:

- if you remove some piece of fixed protection altogether, is it still the same route with a different grade, or a different route?
- Placed-on-lead fixed gear, such as pegs, provide a far greater degree of security to the first ascentionist than to some later climber who has less knowledge about the condition of the gear. In effect, making the route harder for later climbers.
- Depending upon how you deal with risk on the lead (in your own mind, in terms of decision-making) a shoddy bit of fixed gear can be worthless anyway, and might as well not be there.

There was one route discussed yesterday, which I don't remember the name of. The sole bolt protected against an otherwise unprotectable ground fall. Some of those "in the know" suggested the route would go from E6 to E9 were the bolt removed.
 Jonny2vests 27 Sep 2011
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:
> (In reply to jonny2vests) What! Not even Sea Walls?
>
> Al

Touche.
 Richard Hall 27 Sep 2011

> There was one route discussed yesterday, which I don't remember the name of. The sole bolt protected against an otherwise unprotectable ground fall. Some of those "in the know" suggested the route would go from E6 to E9 were the bolt removed.

Exactly.

6c moves by a good bolt = E5/6
6c moves above a death fall = E8/9
OP mlmatt 27 Sep 2011
In reply to jonny2vests:

Sorry Jonny2vests. I apologise!

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