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Ideas for early season routes: What's In And What's not ?

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sphagnum 27 Sep 2011

I was thinking it could be useful for all if we share our views, tips and experiences of our good, bad and darn right ugly early season route choices.

What early season conditions do folk consider 'good nick' ?

Tales of ripping turf, tottering blocks and all night epics welcome !
 3leggeddog 27 Sep 2011
In reply to sphagnum:

You have seen the forecast for this week haven't you?
 DaveHK 27 Sep 2011
In reply to sphagnum:
>
>
> What early season conditions do folk consider 'good nick' ?
>
> Tales of ripping turf, tottering blocks and all night epics welcome !

If you wait till it's white and frozen then you don't get that stuff.


 drunken monkey 27 Sep 2011
In reply to sphagnum: Its only September.
sphagnum 27 Sep 2011
In reply to DaveHK:
> (In reply to sphagnum)
> [...]
>
> If you wait till it's white and frozen then you don't get that stuff.

Any bad route choices early season you would care to share ?
Do you consider minus 1 temps and a blasting of powder on rock good nick ?
sphagnum 28 Sep 2011
In reply to sphagnum:

'How to get on (and up) early season routes
By James Edwards
The early climber catches the first route. Or was it something about a bird? Anyhow, it’s dark it’s cold and the calendar says it should be winter so lets cry havoc and release the dogs of winter! Or maybe not. Back in the day, tales abound of ‘I did Point five in August under 20m of neve; it’s not real winter these days. These young climbers are kidding themselves scratching up these routes and spoiling them for everyone!’ Well granddad is often grumpy because he knows that the only way he can get up Fall Out Corner, the VI,7 classic of the northern corries, is in summer and then at the end of a very tight rope. But, before we dismiss the generations before us as being passed it and jealous, let’s think on what’s gone before us and pause before we let fly the tools.

There is no doubt that climbing ethics are changing; I don’t want to put a value judgement on it, that’s the job of another article. But in some regard the changing nature of the game is a product of our changing conditions; when the neve is thick there are queues on the out there routes on the Indicator wall on the Ben. But for the other 95% of the time when bare slabs abound it’s the traditional gullies that see the traffic. Those hiking up the Ben path who want to get away from the crowds are now venturing more and more onto the high quality Nevis mixed lines as these days it’s once in a blue moon that you’ll see the white stuff dribbling down over those blank Ben walls.

And so: the rise and rise of mixed climbing. In the 70’s some thought of mix climbing as something to do when conditions weren’t in and saw it as a curious thing to want to do when it was obvious that any right thinking climber would want to climb ice and neve. Well these days beggars can’t be choosers and mixed climbing is now arguably the most popular aspect of Scottish Winter climbing.

But here lies the rub; it’s a limited resource, a route changes with the number of ascents, particularly if it suffers the weight of those climbers who aren’t quite patient enough to wait for the big freeze to come and turn the turf from a Gardener’s Question Time exhibit to a winter climber’s frozen dream. But, hey, life is short and I’ve driven all this way and I can see another party over the other side of the corrie on a route, so my route must be in good condition? Mustn’t it? Well not necessarily so. I first climbed Fall out Corner in the 90’s. That year it was the first route of the season for me. We’d waited out the days of quasi winter and watched 4 days of cold northerly winds riding in from the Arctic such the heat out of the high hills. The result was every placement in the corner pitch was on bomber ice and turf. It was so enjoyable that I was forgetting to put gear in and Sam kept calling up from the belay reminding me that 10m falls weren’t pretty. The thing was, I couldn’t have fallen off if I’d wanted to; the turf was that good. About 8 years later I climbed the route again and it felt like a different route. All the turf had gone and I was scratching hooks and torques out of the corner now. This still gave interest but I, and many others, preferred it with the turf. OK, I’m harping on now. We’ve all seen great lumps of greenness on the crag aprons and shook our heads, but I bet a fair lot of us have also had a placement rip because it wasn’t properly frozen...'
http://www.thefrontpoint.com/default.aspx?PageID=EarlySeasonClimbing
 CurlyStevo 28 Sep 2011
In reply to sphagnum:
on the plus side some of the summer rock routes are now on quite nice clean rock and there's been some activity new routing in resent years on traditional winter lines!
 Andy Moles 28 Sep 2011
In reply to CurlyStevo:

Absolutely. Ruined winter routes, improved rock routes, net gain
 Jamie B 28 Sep 2011
In reply to sphagnum:

> What early season conditions do folk consider 'good nick'?

Turf frozen, impossible without tools, aesthetically white.

The last-named is admittedly open to some interpretation, but the first two are pretty unambiguous.


sphagnum 28 Sep 2011
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
> (In reply to sphagnum)
>
> [...]
>
> Turf frozen, impossible without tools, aesthetically white.
>
> The last-named is admittedly open to some interpretation, but the first two are pretty unambiguous.

Probably comes down to what type of route it is and maybe personal taste. Assuming the turf is frozen a southern highlands style turf route for example could only require a blasting of snow. mcofs say 'The cliff should have a ‘winter’ appearance with snow, hoarfrost, rime-ice or verglass covering rock, not just snow covering ledges.'
But, 'Summer routes that are of good quality and in particular classic climbs, often have little vegetation or even ice. They should only be attempted in winter when fully coated with snow and ice in order to prevent damage to the underlying rock.'

That suggest to me that the newly established summer rock routes on the Pottage should only be attempted when they can be protected from damage !
 Jamie B 28 Sep 2011
In reply to sphagnum:

> 'Summer routes that are of good quality and in particular classic climbs, often have little vegetation or even ice. They should only be attempted in winter when fully coated with snow and ice in order to prevent damage to the underlying rock.'

Whoever wrote that had limited understanding of snowed-up rock; the suggestion that this type of route can ever be "protected" by some sort of snow/ice plating was well-intentioned but unrealistic.

 CurlyStevo 28 Sep 2011
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
turf frozen isn't necessary for routes pretty much entirely on rock like fingers ridge. Impossible without tools would rule out a lot of the routes undergrade V a lot of the time in the northern corries. Easier with tools than without is more realistic.
 Jamie B 28 Sep 2011
In reply to CurlyStevo:

I've backed off the first pitch of Fingers 'cos the turf was mush, and I'd certainly want some of the blocks higher up to be glued in. Possibly not the best example, but yes, there are routes which will go unfrozen.
sphagnum 28 Sep 2011
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
> (In reply to CurlyStevo)
>
> I've backed off the first pitch of Fingers 'cos the turf was mush, and I'd certainly want some of the blocks higher up to be glued in. Possibly not the best example, but yes, there are routes which will go unfrozen.

They could go but would they be in winter nick ?
Surely if you climb an unfrozen winter(?) route this probably be after a very recent snowfall, say early season or during a thaw, and this would tend to be something thats teds not to be advisable.

Is there an general consensus that there are certain routes in the northern corries that dont rely on turf and dont require otherwise loose blocks to be frozen in place that are fair game in semi winter nick ?

Mixed climbing wise, if the turf is unfrozen would this not mean temperatures would likely not have been below freezing, or, the turf is insulated under powder (in which case you would probably be scraping away heaps of wet snow to reveal black, wet rock) and the crag is just not in winter condition ?
In reply to sphagnum:

A cliff can be white but not in nick?

Routes can have ice or verglas on them, again not in good nick.

Ice streaks/frozen ground can be climbed with surrounding rock black.

I think that different crags, require different conditions, to determine whether their in or not. Only gathered experience from different rock types, previously climbed routes on the crag, what direction cliff faces and the climbers judgement on the day, would justify if it's in or not!

I also think snowed up rock, can be frozen, plastered, meeting all the criteria, yet not in 'prefered' nick for that type of ascent. Climbing is meant to be fun, after all!!

Stuart

 CurlyStevo 28 Sep 2011
In reply to sphagnum:
Certain routes I've climbed like hidden chimney direct very rarely rely on much neve, there is a bit of turf on the asy ground that may not be frozen because it can get burried under loose powder when the rest of the route is in fairly usual condition early season but you can pretty much avoid it. Actually I think it's not that ususual early season for routes do be in very acceptable nick but with the turf on easier ground that is well burried still not properly frozen, certainly doesn't imply that the snow is going to be wet and the rock black.

Admitedly I did fingers ridge in winter mid season and any turf would have been frozen but I didn't think the route had much turf on it when I did it in summer and that the loose block factor was also fine (apart from the massive loose tower near the top but it wasn't that bad!)
 CurlyStevo 28 Sep 2011
In reply to sphagnum:
fingers ridge also has quite a few ticks in novemvber and for every year for the last 6 or so seasons so likely not a bad early season choice IMO!
 TobyA 28 Sep 2011
In reply to CurlyStevo:

> Admitedly I did fingers ridge in winter mid season and any turf would have been frozen

The first pitch might just be steep snow wander then? When I did it in November (could have even been late october) the first pitch was rather nervy - trying to find the turf under the snow. A bulldog was my only runner as I remember it.
sphagnum 28 Sep 2011
In reply to Stuart the postie:
> (In reply to sphagnum)
>
> A cliff can be white but not in nick?
>
Certainly can.

> Routes can have ice or verglas on them, again not in good nick.
>
> Ice streaks/frozen ground can be climbed with surrounding rock black.
>
> I think that different crags, require different conditions, to determine whether their in or not. Only gathered experience from different rock types, previously climbed routes on the crag, what direction cliff faces and the climbers judgement on the day, would justify if it's in or not!
>
Agreed, it's a lot more complex than 'the cliff should have a wintry appearance'. Particualar conditions are required to make certain routes feasabile and I think that this can cause confusion, for example when folk see pictures of someone on a steep line that may not have ice or appear to be not that white and they either think, thats 'not in', or thats acceptable conditions to climb other more traditional winter routes in.

> I also think snowed up rock, can be frozen, plastered, meeting all the criteria, yet not in 'prefered' nick for that type of ascent. Climbing is meant to be fun, after all!!
>
> Stuart

sphagnum 28 Sep 2011
In reply to CurlyStevo:

I hear what your saying about turf being less likely to be insultated on the steeper climbs and therefore frozen, this could obviously then mean that the grade VI may be in prime nick when the II/III next door aint.

I did fingers on neve/ice so didnt have to worry about the turf !
 CurlyStevo 28 Sep 2011
In reply to TobyA: Maybe the reason you found it tricky was you were looking for something that doesn't exist? Interestingly Andy Nesbit seems to agree with me also I quote from the new cairngorms guide "a very good winter route that does not rely on frozen turf or the build up of ice" .... Sorry Toby !
 CurlyStevo 28 Sep 2011
In reply to sphagnum: Yeah it's quite common to hear early season reports along lines of exposed turf was bomber but anything well buried still mush isn't it. To get this in perspective I've done relatively little climbing in november and only once come across unfrozen turf and that was as described burried under powder on easy ground halfway up the route and by the time we'd realised and at the next Possible ab point we were past it, and encountered no more on the rest of the route.
 Jamie B 29 Sep 2011
In reply to sphagnum:

> turf less likely to be insultated on the steeper climbs and therefore frozen, this could obviously then mean that the grade VI may be in prime nick when the II/III next door ain't.

Precisely. Which is why early-season conditions suit higher-grade climbers better. Unfortunately history shows us that if Climber X makes a big noise about getting an early-season tick of the grade VI, Climber Y misinterprets this and goes and rips the turf out of the II/III.

How early do you mean by "early season"? In October it's extremely rare for turf to be frozen and you're talking about high, normally harder snowed-up rock routes in the Cairngorms and Ben Nevis, with other quartzite cliffs like Beinn Eighe and Foinaven being a possible long-shot. But turf-freezing Northerly blasts are more common in November than some would have you believe; I've climbed in Glencoe, Grey Corries, Kintail and Beinn an Dothaidh in mint conditions in previous years. And consider the modest height of Stac Pollaidh and that some FAs were done there in November too by someone prepared to think outside the box...


 Jamie B 29 Sep 2011
In reply to CurlyStevo:

Funny you should mention Hidden Chimney Direct. I did it in piss-poor conditions a couple of seasons ago - snow sliding off dripping wet rock but enough older neve still sticking to it to mean that it wasn't just an exercise in wet-tooling.

I didn't find it very satisfying, but it was marginally more so than walking out of the Corrie or vandalising a grade III. I think people have to make their own ethics, and if they dont materially damage the route then there is no harm done. Of course exposure to piss-taking is now an occupational hazard and I dont see this as unhealthy either.
 CurlyStevo 29 Sep 2011
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
It's one of the few grade III's in the area that is a good bet in typical early season conditions which last about 2 weeks before a thaw comes along.

I've done the direct myself and walked by it quite a few times at differing times through the season and I've never seen much build up on the crux start to it.
 TobyA 29 Sep 2011
In reply to CurlyStevo: I don't quite get your point, we were just following the guidebook description. There could be an alternative first pitch? Or it might just be a steep snow slope later in winter, but we did what our guide book said.
 CurlyStevo 29 Sep 2011
In reply to TobyA:
the point was you were suggesting the route depended on frozen turf on your ascent and mine maybe was banked out.

Having climbed pitch 1 in summer I can say there isn't much turf atall on the initial slabs and that after that it's not exactly a turfy route and not one that strikes me as being dependent on turf, which is inline with the guide book desription no?
 TobyA 29 Sep 2011
In reply to CurlyStevo:

> the point was you were suggesting the route depended on frozen turf on your ascent and mine maybe was banked out.

Not really, I was just remembering that the first pitch was a bit nervy (not hard though) when I did it and turf helped a lot - it was Jamie's comment about backing off that reminded me. My mate got sick at that point and our third partner who is a doctor didn't want him to walk out alone, so unfortunately we all had to ab off from the start of pitch two. So I never got to do all the fun looking mixed stuff on the ridge itself.
sphagnum 29 Sep 2011
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
> (In reply to sphagnum)
>
> [...]
>
> Precisely. Which is why early-season conditions suit higher-grade climbers better. Unfortunately history shows us that if Climber X makes a big noise about getting an early-season tick of the grade VI, Climber Y misinterprets this and goes and rips the turf out of the II/III.
>
Aye, and unfortunately climber Y may not realise that climber X is very experienced and that climber X has hand picked a route that X knows will lend its self to the lean conditions.

> How early do you mean by "early season"? In October it's extremely rare for turf to be frozen and you're talking about high, normally harder snowed-up rock routes in the Cairngorms and Ben Nevis, with other quartzite cliffs like Beinn Eighe and Foinaven being a possible long-shot. But turf-freezing Northerly blasts are more common in November than some would have you believe; I've climbed in Glencoe, Grey Corries, Kintail and Beinn an Dothaidh in mint conditions in previous years. And consider the modest height of Stac Pollaidh and that some FAs were done there in November too by someone prepared to think outside the box...

Yes a bit hit or miss. Also in November ive had good conditions on Ben Lomond and Coire Brochain (whilst the crags in an t'Sneachda were black).
Quite fancy heading to Sputan Dearg this season.
 TobyA 29 Sep 2011
In reply to sphagnum:
> Also in November ive had good conditions on Ben Lomond and Coire Brochain (whilst the crags in an t'Sneachda were black).

Where's Coire Brochain? But what you say about Lomond rings true because I was going to add to Jamie's list the Southern Highlands and Arrochar, we climbed there plenty pre-Xmas when I was living in Glasgow. The guidebook said something about "a frost to freeze the turf and a sprinkling of snow is all you need" which is sort of true.
 CurlyStevo 29 Sep 2011
In reply to TobyA:
"Where's Coire Brochain"
Braeriach, a big journey in to those cliffs during winter espeicially those darker months of nov - jan but an enjoyable one
sphagnum 29 Sep 2011
In reply to TobyA:
> (In reply to sphagnum)
> [...]
>
> Where's Coire Brochain?

Braeriach, cnut of a trek to get too.
Routes on the western section seemed to hold the most snow and were fairly sheltered from the sun.
 niallk 29 Sep 2011
In reply to TobyA:
> (In reply to sphagnum)
> [...]
>
>I was going to add to Jamie's list the Southern Highlands and Arrochar, we climbed there plenty pre-Xmas when I was living in Glasgow. The guidebook said something about "a frost to freeze the turf and a sprinkling of snow is all you need" which is sort of true.

Ditto.

 CurlyStevo 29 Sep 2011
In reply to niallk:
> (In reply to TobyA)
> [...]
> >I was going to add to Jamie's list the Southern Highlands and Arrochar, we climbed there plenty pre-Xmas when I was living in Glasgow. The guidebook said something about "a frost to freeze the turf and a sprinkling of snow is all you need" which is sort of true.
>
> Ditto.

however if you get a big dump of snow or a lot of snow transportation as previously mentioned it may take some time for the turf to freeze properly, it's certainly quite common for this to be the case especially on routes grade III/IV and under, hence why more rocky venues are often more reliable early season, or atleast routes not too dependent on turf.
 TobyA 29 Sep 2011
In reply to CurlyStevo: I'm sure that's possible and of course the Northern Corries have always been the classic "first route venues", but I don't remember back off S. Highland routes because of lack of frozen turf, normally it was the other way - turf rock solid but not really enough snow to make it 'feel' wintery. But Bridge of Orchy always seemed to be the goldilocks area of just right - reasonably high, inland-ish for hard frosts, and some snow. Don't remember people climbing in Glencoe very often early season, but the other side of the moor was often colder.
 CurlyStevo 29 Sep 2011
In reply to TobyA:
glencoe is certainly one of the more fickle areas especially considering the height of SCNL.
 Jamie B 29 Sep 2011
In reply to CurlyStevo:

> Glencoe is certainly one of the more fickle areas especially considering the height of SCNL.

The Hurt Lochain is a nightmare before it's well frozen, loose blocks everywhere. Personally I think it always needs a bit of refrozen snow in addition to frozen turf to feel in any way safe.

 Jamie B 29 Sep 2011
In reply to TobyA:

There's been a lot of new-routing on Dothaidh in previous Novembers, and I got primo early-season conditions there once when the Norries were swimming in powder. As you say, the key seems to be the Northerly blast coming before too much snow.
 CurlyStevo 29 Sep 2011
In reply to Jamie Bankhead: The last two years have hardly been typical early seaon though right. Interestingly the ne corrie does say in the guidebook I have needs snow build up and the other corrie needs several days of hard freeze to freeze water fed by the springs. Anyway I've never been there and as others have said every early season is different. I defo want to get over that way when it's in good nick
 Jamie B 29 Sep 2011
In reply to CurlyStevo:

The NE Corrie is full of good things and rarely busy, unless you have blinkers on for Taxus. One of my favourite crags in the country and definitely fair game at any time of the season; I think I've been there enough to state that with confidence. As Toby says it does have the magic formula of height, aspect and distance from sea.
 LakesWinter 29 Sep 2011
In reply to Jamie Bankhead: Yea most of the routes there can be done with a freeze and a dump of snow, it's only things like Cirrus and Taxus that need much build up
 Nigel Thomson 05 Oct 2011
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
> (In reply to CurlyStevo)
>
>
s. One of my favourite crags in the country and definitely fair game at any time of the season.

Agreed, there's a certain magic about this place. A quick drive from Glasgow and suddenly you're in the mountains with vistas to the north pretty special too.
drmarten 06 Oct 2011
In reply to the weegy:
My first visit was for Taxus (yes, blinkers) and the views of the crag and northwards were among the best I've seen - magical. A most annoying day to have left my camera in the car along with my mobile phone. Two years later I still kick myself for that.
 Jamie B 06 Oct 2011
In reply to drmarten:

On a clear day it's an amazing view - among the best in Scotland.
 Pids 06 Oct 2011
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

I always hate the walk in - either a soggy bog or a trudge on frozen ruts
Normally worth it though,but then curse it on the way out
 Erik B 06 Oct 2011
In reply to TobyA: I think your exagerating how often the s highlands come in nick early season..
 Erik B 06 Oct 2011
In reply to Pids: eh? its one the easiest and most pleasant walk-ins in scotland
 Erik B 06 Oct 2011
In reply to Jamie Bankhead: its also the perfect location when the jeffries are battling and braying their way off the snekta plateau in a full on northerly blizzard.....ooops im giving too much away here!
 Pids 06 Oct 2011
In reply to Erik B:
> (In reply to Pids) eh? its one the easiest and most pleasant walk-ins in scotland

sigh...
 TobyA 06 Oct 2011
In reply to Erik B: Well maybe, selection bias and all that. I can say that for the four years I lived in Glasgow we got various routes done there in what was the university 'Autumn' term. Some would have been December, but some as early as October. Maybe they were good years though.
 Erik B 07 Oct 2011
In reply to TobyA: that was a good spell for early nick, you are right
 SonyaD 13 Oct 2011
In reply to Pids: I went thigh deep into one of those bogs one year after wrongly assuming it was frozen enough to walk over, had a good covering of frozen armour on my breeks after that! I warned James about the same spot the next year and he did exactly the same thing :oD
 Erik B 13 Oct 2011
In reply to Jamie Bankhead: "And consider the modest height of Stac Pollaidh and that some FAs were done there in November too by someone prepared to think outside the box"

that was me thinking outside the box and the man with the beard who knows everything refused to believe the turf was frozen, it WAS frozen, route not possible without it. Positive Vegtation was the route name, and for a reason as it was positively frozen (and also a play on that glasgow techno classic), that face freezes very quickly due to exposed situation and sandy nature of the turf. an unusual wee coup and break from work midweek.

also, Fingers Ridge does rely on turf very early season, i.e the deceptively tricky and bold first pitch

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