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I've seen the article on abseiling past the knot but my question is. What knot is the knot? Are there any recommendations ? double fisherman's maybe. Don't slam me if its a stupid suggestion i really have no idea. Thanks all.
K
K
In reply to kyebrooks:
Double fisherman's is one standard answer. But myself I'd use a simple overhand, just because it's, well, simple. The simpler you keep things, the less there is to go wrong.
Double fisherman's is one standard answer. But myself I'd use a simple overhand, just because it's, well, simple. The simpler you keep things, the less there is to go wrong.
In reply to kyebrooks: Double fishermans with long tails and fig 8 tied using the tails as it gives somewhere secure to clip in to whilst passing the knot.
In reply to kyebrooks: Read this, then make up your own mind
http://www.needlesports.com/catalogue/content.aspx?con_id=75b7be92-45dd-474...
http://www.needlesports.com/catalogue/content.aspx?con_id=75b7be92-45dd-474...
In reply to dan: Are we talking a figure eight on the bite of each tail then clipping to two loops or joining the two tails and tying a figure eight with the two ends and clipping to the loop it will make with it and the double fisherman's.
And doesn't an overhand just become really tight and hard to undo.
K
And doesn't an overhand just become really tight and hard to undo.
K
In reply to kyebrooks: If you are not sure get someone to show you.. best not to get this one wrong. Personally I use an overhand with about 50cm of tail.
In reply to kyebrooks: Very interesting reading and I would agree with the whole article, but in my case I've been using a double fishermans with fig 8loop for many years climbing caving and for rope access and I know u can do it correctly every time, in the dark and half asleep.
Overhand! Dont bother tying double fishermans, just faffy. DONT use a fig 8!! there have been cases of them un rolling.
Just a simple overhand with long tails.
Just a simple overhand with long tails.
In reply to Luuuke:
From the article:
"The safest knot by far would be the Double Fisherman's"
I would make the effort and deal with the minimal amount of 'faff' involved in tying a double fishermans, as it is clearly the superior knot for the purpose.
> Overhand! Dont bother tying double fishermans, just faffy. DONT use a fig 8!! there have been cases of them un rolling.
>
> Just a simple overhand with long tails.
>
> Just a simple overhand with long tails.
From the article:
"The safest knot by far would be the Double Fisherman's"
I would make the effort and deal with the minimal amount of 'faff' involved in tying a double fishermans, as it is clearly the superior knot for the purpose.
In reply to Dean177:
Double fishermans everytime. long ends. good practise. Easier to undo after loading, safer.... oh and safer!
Double fishermans everytime. long ends. good practise. Easier to undo after loading, safer.... oh and safer!
In reply to kyebrooks: Not a reply to the question, but I was going to make a new thread but may aswell ask here. If you wish to abb down with two ropes like using double ropes, but the ropes are quite different in width, for example one half and one single rope, is there a knot to tie or is it just not really viable safely.
If in doubt use a double fishermans knot.
If you're feeling confident use an overhand knot (possible backed up with another) is an improvement because it reduces the chances of the knot getting stuck when you recover the rope. It is also faster. It is secure but takes a bit of confidence to believe that such a simple knot can work.
A figure 8 is good provided the ropes come out from opposite ends of the knot. It has been used where both ropes come out from the same end of the knot to reduce the chance of it getting stuck. This is _not_ safe, tied this way the figure 8 can invert / flip and if it goes beyond the tails the knot comes undone. which has lead to at least one fatality.
I've also abseiled on a reef knot backed up by a double fisherman's knot (ie stopper knots) which I believe is safe and has the advantage of being easy to undo.
All this is a bit complicated - the answer is:
* For easy situations and until you are confident a double fishermans.
*In more difficult situations eg when speed is important, cold, dark, where the rope is more likely to snag and this is important (say on a multipitch descent) a double overhand with big tails is better.
If you're feeling confident use an overhand knot (possible backed up with another) is an improvement because it reduces the chances of the knot getting stuck when you recover the rope. It is also faster. It is secure but takes a bit of confidence to believe that such a simple knot can work.
A figure 8 is good provided the ropes come out from opposite ends of the knot. It has been used where both ropes come out from the same end of the knot to reduce the chance of it getting stuck. This is _not_ safe, tied this way the figure 8 can invert / flip and if it goes beyond the tails the knot comes undone. which has lead to at least one fatality.
I've also abseiled on a reef knot backed up by a double fisherman's knot (ie stopper knots) which I believe is safe and has the advantage of being easy to undo.
All this is a bit complicated - the answer is:
* For easy situations and until you are confident a double fishermans.
*In more difficult situations eg when speed is important, cold, dark, where the rope is more likely to snag and this is important (say on a multipitch descent) a double overhand with big tails is better.
In reply to kyebrooks:
Three overhand knots in a row. (OK maybe two will do.) Should be enough to stop it rolling, not too hard to undo, and the asymmetry should help to avoid snagging on the way down. Also much quicker than a double fisherman's and very hard to get wrong.
Three overhand knots in a row. (OK maybe two will do.) Should be enough to stop it rolling, not too hard to undo, and the asymmetry should help to avoid snagging on the way down. Also much quicker than a double fisherman's and very hard to get wrong.
In reply to Sam Marks:
I've done it numerous times with a 10.5 mm full rope and 8.5 mm half rope tied together with 2 overhand knots, one immediately behind the other with around 50 cm of tail after the second knot. Never had any problems.
> (In reply to kyebrooks) Not a reply to the question, but I was going to make a new thread but may aswell ask here. If you wish to abb down with two ropes like using double ropes, but the ropes are quite different in width, for example one half and one single rope, is there a knot to tie or is it just not really viable safely.
I've done it numerous times with a 10.5 mm full rope and 8.5 mm half rope tied together with 2 overhand knots, one immediately behind the other with around 50 cm of tail after the second knot. Never had any problems.
In reply to kyebrooks:
Double Overhand is the knot to use. You can do 20 abs and still untie it. If you did the same with a double fisherman's you'd be there all night trying to untie it.
Double Overhand is the knot to use. You can do 20 abs and still untie it. If you did the same with a double fisherman's you'd be there all night trying to untie it.
In reply to kyebrooks:
Overhand with 50cm tails unless the ropes are of significantly different diameters when I'd use a double fisherman's.
ALC
Overhand with 50cm tails unless the ropes are of significantly different diameters when I'd use a double fisherman's.
ALC
In reply to kyebrooks: The only time you should have to pass a knot is if you have tied ropes together to extend the length of the abseil beyond the normal practice of joining two ropes at the anchor point.
To all of you recommending the double fishermans can I suggest that you try abseiling 15 or more pitches in freezing cold and wet with a storm brewing. Your efforts to undo the knot at the bottom as the storm closes in will put you off the double fishermans for the rest of your climbing career.
Al
To all of you recommending the double fishermans can I suggest that you try abseiling 15 or more pitches in freezing cold and wet with a storm brewing. Your efforts to undo the knot at the bottom as the storm closes in will put you off the double fishermans for the rest of your climbing career.
Al
In reply to Franco Cookson:
Ive done multiple abs (upto 11 in a row) on double fishermans with no trouble whatsoever. Double overhand is superior in places where a rope snag is possible otherwise there is little difference.
Ive done multiple abs (upto 11 in a row) on double fishermans with no trouble whatsoever. Double overhand is superior in places where a rope snag is possible otherwise there is little difference.
In reply to Offwidth (and others!):
I've never quite understood that logic. If you had any doubts about the safety of an overhand / double overhand, you wouldn't use it at all. If you'r prepared to use it when getting the rope stuck is a significant risk (which, lets face it, is most of the time), and it's quicker and easier to tie & check, why not use it all the time?
> (In reply to Franco Cookson)
>
> Ive done multiple abs (upto 11 in a row) on double fishermans with no trouble whatsoever. Double overhand is superior in places where a rope snag is possible otherwise there is little difference.
>
> Ive done multiple abs (upto 11 in a row) on double fishermans with no trouble whatsoever. Double overhand is superior in places where a rope snag is possible otherwise there is little difference.
I've never quite understood that logic. If you had any doubts about the safety of an overhand / double overhand, you wouldn't use it at all. If you'r prepared to use it when getting the rope stuck is a significant risk (which, lets face it, is most of the time), and it's quicker and easier to tie & check, why not use it all the time?
In reply to kyebrooks: double overhand, just because its so easy to tie even when tired, stressed, cold and in a hurry.
In reply to kyebrooks:
I have only ever abbed past a knot once (Mercury, N Devon) - we used a double fisherman's knot and a large figure of eight device and the knot fitted through the device which saved a heap of messing around.
Chris
I have only ever abbed past a knot once (Mercury, N Devon) - we used a double fisherman's knot and a large figure of eight device and the knot fitted through the device which saved a heap of messing around.
Chris
In reply to kyebrooks:
Make your own mind up
http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/journal/climb-qclab/qclab/qc-lab...
Make your own mind up
http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/journal/climb-qclab/qclab/qc-lab...
In reply to george mc:
Then there's the Zeppelin Knot or an alpine butterfly with the two ropes joined first via a double fishermen's thus it incorporates a loop for knot passing.
Then there's the Zeppelin Knot or an alpine butterfly with the two ropes joined first via a double fishermen's thus it incorporates a loop for knot passing.
In reply to kyebrooks:
More data on the strength of the overhand - just scroll down the thread and look for the data from Tom Moyer (under a poster's name of JayB)
http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/32220/
More data on the strength of the overhand - just scroll down the thread and look for the data from Tom Moyer (under a poster's name of JayB)
http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/32220/
In reply
That to me is the safest and easyest to untie of all.I don't feel easy on the over hand knot( which is hard to undo)The figure 8 is also hard to undo(and not safe unless done with the ends coming out of opposite sides). So is the double fishermans.I feel the issue may be the big knot getting caught when pulling the ropes,but if you know that before hand it's easy to take care.So every time for me it's the reef knot with double fishermans as stoppers.Even on odd sized ropes. Passing a knot on abb may be a whole other issue, which also is very rare to need, in fact never unless you are going looking for it.
> I've also abseiled on a reef knot backed up by a double fisherman's knot (ie stopper knots) which I believe is safe and has the advantage of being easy to undo.
That to me is the safest and easyest to untie of all.I don't feel easy on the over hand knot( which is hard to undo)The figure 8 is also hard to undo(and not safe unless done with the ends coming out of opposite sides). So is the double fishermans.I feel the issue may be the big knot getting caught when pulling the ropes,but if you know that before hand it's easy to take care.So every time for me it's the reef knot with double fishermans as stoppers.Even on odd sized ropes. Passing a knot on abb may be a whole other issue, which also is very rare to need, in fact never unless you are going looking for it.
Ok the overhand IS NOT THE EURO DEATH KNOT! A fig 8 is the euro death knot.
For joining two ropes of varying diameter (or any) if you really want to be uber secure you would use a sheepshank double fishermans combo.
Another advantage to the simple over hand is that the knot lies reletively flat reducing the risk of it getting stuck.
For joining two ropes of varying diameter (or any) if you really want to be uber secure you would use a sheepshank double fishermans combo.
Another advantage to the simple over hand is that the knot lies reletively flat reducing the risk of it getting stuck.
In reply to Luuuke:
Actually I think both knots have been called the EDK, it just depends who you're talking to.
> Ok the overhand IS NOT THE EURO DEATH KNOT! A fig 8 is the euro death knot.
Actually I think both knots have been called the EDK, it just depends who you're talking to.
In reply to Charlie_Zero: See http://www.paci.com.au/downloads_public.php for a look at the Zeppelin Bend page 26. Also has analysis of the other knots used for joining. There are better knots than the EDK that are less complex than the combinations described by other posters, but what ever the advantage on paper you have got to be able to tie it in extremis and I guess that's where the EDK comes in if you aren't a knot geek.
In reply to steveshaking:
Sorry - ambiguous post from me above!
My intention was to point out that the term "European Death Knot" does generally refer to the overhand bend.
Thanks for the good link anyway.
Sorry - ambiguous post from me above!
My intention was to point out that the term "European Death Knot" does generally refer to the overhand bend.
Thanks for the good link anyway.
In reply to bz:
Better thought of as a double fisherman's with a reef knot in the middle to stop it overtightening. Same thing (and safe for the job if you like it), but the reef knot's not a bend, there have apparently been fatalities caused by folk treating it as such and it seems sensible to avoid descriptions which might imply that it is when it's so widely-known and frequently misunderstood because of its ubiquity.
So what do I use? Overhand, of course!
> I've also abseiled on a reef knot backed up by a double fisherman's knot
Better thought of as a double fisherman's with a reef knot in the middle to stop it overtightening. Same thing (and safe for the job if you like it), but the reef knot's not a bend, there have apparently been fatalities caused by folk treating it as such and it seems sensible to avoid descriptions which might imply that it is when it's so widely-known and frequently misunderstood because of its ubiquity.
So what do I use? Overhand, of course!
In reply to kyebrooks: A very sensible question. The answer depends on whether you will be hanging in space at the change over as you pass the knot. If it is free hanging a double fisherman's or many other knots would be fine, if though you will be hands free, e.g. ledge or a grass slope (think Lundy) at the passing point then a flemish bend with a double fig 8 tail is real neat.
In reply to kyebrooks:
There's been quite a lot of tests on this, and basically the answer is:
Overhand: Dodgy. Fine dry, dodgy when wet or sloppily tied.
Fig 8: Dodgy in any circumatances.
Double Fisherman's. In every test, regardless of how badly tied or how wet, the rope broke before the knot did.
Since its hard to untie when tightened, I always put a reef knot in the middle, which solves that problem.
Since if your ab rope comes apart you are dead, I've always worked on the basis that taking chances is a no-brainer - I won't take the chances if there is an opportunity not to do so.
Double fishermans - in my case with a reef in the middle - every time.
Incidentally, the only reason the reef is there is to make it easy to untie. The reef, on its own, is instant death. More or less as soon as it is loaded it starts moving up the rope to butt up against the end of the double fishermans.
There's been quite a lot of tests on this, and basically the answer is:
Overhand: Dodgy. Fine dry, dodgy when wet or sloppily tied.
Fig 8: Dodgy in any circumatances.
Double Fisherman's. In every test, regardless of how badly tied or how wet, the rope broke before the knot did.
Since its hard to untie when tightened, I always put a reef knot in the middle, which solves that problem.
Since if your ab rope comes apart you are dead, I've always worked on the basis that taking chances is a no-brainer - I won't take the chances if there is an opportunity not to do so.
Double fishermans - in my case with a reef in the middle - every time.
Incidentally, the only reason the reef is there is to make it easy to untie. The reef, on its own, is instant death. More or less as soon as it is loaded it starts moving up the rope to butt up against the end of the double fishermans.
In reply to John_Hat:
What I said, two posts above!
> Incidentally, the only reason the reef is there is to make it easy to untie. The reef, on its own, is instant death.
What I said, two posts above!
In reply to John_Hat:
I've not heard that the overhand is unsafe when tied in wet ropes. Do you have any further info on the tests that led to that conclusion? Thanks.
> (In reply to kyebrooks)
>
> There's been quite a lot of tests on this, and basically the answer is:
>
> Overhand: Dodgy. Fine dry, dodgy when wet or sloppily tied.
>
>
> There's been quite a lot of tests on this, and basically the answer is:
>
> Overhand: Dodgy. Fine dry, dodgy when wet or sloppily tied.
>
I've not heard that the overhand is unsafe when tied in wet ropes. Do you have any further info on the tests that led to that conclusion? Thanks.
In reply to Charlie_Zero:
This has been discussed here before (surprise, surprise). There were a number of abseiling deaths in the USA due to the figure of eight being used as the tying knot but it was originally reported as being the overhand that was used - after all the fo8 is a bigger knot so it *must* be better -
of course even once the truth came out the name stuck.
ALC
This has been discussed here before (surprise, surprise). There were a number of abseiling deaths in the USA due to the figure of eight being used as the tying knot but it was originally reported as being the overhand that was used - after all the fo8 is a bigger knot so it *must* be better -
of course even once the truth came out the name stuck.
ALC
In reply to kyebrooks:
Do you mean joining two ropes to make a single strand abseil longer (eg a cock-up while caving) or joining two ropes to make a full-length retrievable ab on two strands (eg bailing off High Tor)?
For the former: Something that forms a loop. The loop is used for back up while you pass the knot. A fig8 on the bight rethreaded from the loop side with the third strand (the extension rope) then properly stoppered is one option. I'd suggest some reading/instruction then practice in a safe environment.
For the latter: A simple overhand works for me. Some people prefer to use two back to back, others prefer a pair of double-fishermans, they all work. Avoid using a fig8, reef knot, sheet bend etc. Again, I'd suggest some reading or instruction on the subject before you put your life on the line.
jk
Do you mean joining two ropes to make a single strand abseil longer (eg a cock-up while caving) or joining two ropes to make a full-length retrievable ab on two strands (eg bailing off High Tor)?
For the former: Something that forms a loop. The loop is used for back up while you pass the knot. A fig8 on the bight rethreaded from the loop side with the third strand (the extension rope) then properly stoppered is one option. I'd suggest some reading/instruction then practice in a safe environment.
For the latter: A simple overhand works for me. Some people prefer to use two back to back, others prefer a pair of double-fishermans, they all work. Avoid using a fig8, reef knot, sheet bend etc. Again, I'd suggest some reading or instruction on the subject before you put your life on the line.
jk
In reply to kyebrooks:
I always use a single overhand knot, very well tightened and double checked by my partner. So does everyone else I climb with. Well some use double overhands, but mainly singles.
I always use a single overhand knot, very well tightened and double checked by my partner. So does everyone else I climb with. Well some use double overhands, but mainly singles.
In reply to kyebrooks:
For years I used to use a double fishermans. I now use an overhand knot.
I'm slightly puzzled by all the comments saying the overhand is hard to undo whereas the double fishermans isn't - my experience is totally the opposite (and the main reason I changed).
For years I used to use a double fishermans. I now use an overhand knot.
I'm slightly puzzled by all the comments saying the overhand is hard to undo whereas the double fishermans isn't - my experience is totally the opposite (and the main reason I changed).
In reply to John_Hat:
Ah yes, in a small post after your main one, which I didn't notice. Please excuse my carelessness.
Ah yes, in a small post after your main one, which I didn't notice. Please excuse my carelessness.
In reply to bpmclimb:
Just read through the test results. The figures (from those particular tests) would seem to indicate that the overhand is significantly less secure when wet.
However, that's assuming that the rope referred to is "rope 1" (the 11mm climbing rope) and not "rope 2" (the 8mm accessory cord). This isn't completely clear from the table, IMO.
These tests may well have been done with scientific rigour, but I note that they were done by an individual "in his front yard", that the results have not been tabulated clearly (IMO), that a relatively large number of variable parameters were tested, and that I personally haven't heard of other data that confirm the wet rope findings. So, although there is now some doubt in my mind about the security of wet overhands, I'll suspend final judgement until I see some more evidence.
Perhaps other tests have been done on abseil knots tied in wet ropes?
Just read through the test results. The figures (from those particular tests) would seem to indicate that the overhand is significantly less secure when wet.
However, that's assuming that the rope referred to is "rope 1" (the 11mm climbing rope) and not "rope 2" (the 8mm accessory cord). This isn't completely clear from the table, IMO.
These tests may well have been done with scientific rigour, but I note that they were done by an individual "in his front yard", that the results have not been tabulated clearly (IMO), that a relatively large number of variable parameters were tested, and that I personally haven't heard of other data that confirm the wet rope findings. So, although there is now some doubt in my mind about the security of wet overhands, I'll suspend final judgement until I see some more evidence.
Perhaps other tests have been done on abseil knots tied in wet ropes?
In reply to Toreador:
Same here, very puzzled
The double fisherman's is definitely much harder to untie, in all the ropes I've ever used, anyway.
> (In reply to kyebrooks)
> For years I used to use a double fishermans. I now use an overhand knot.
>
> I'm slightly puzzled by all the comments saying the overhand is hard to undo whereas the double fishermans isn't - my experience is totally the opposite (and the main reason I changed).
> For years I used to use a double fishermans. I now use an overhand knot.
>
> I'm slightly puzzled by all the comments saying the overhand is hard to undo whereas the double fishermans isn't - my experience is totally the opposite (and the main reason I changed).
Same here, very puzzled
The double fisherman's is definitely much harder to untie, in all the ropes I've ever used, anyway.
In reply to Chris Craggs:
It might be Chris for those that have got muddled or have an arse elbow recognition issue.
It might be Chris for those that have got muddled or have an arse elbow recognition issue.
In reply to Toreador:
Yes so am I. After one epic retreat in the Alps in a gathering storm with frozen ropes and after numerous abseils neither myself nor 3 friends could get the double fishermans undone. We had to re-distribute the gear and put both ropes in one rucksack. Never again, overhand for me every time now. It took me some time to be convinced but now that is all I use.
Al
> (In reply to kyebrooks)
> I'm slightly puzzled by all the comments saying the overhand is hard to undo whereas the double fishermans isn't - my experience is totally the opposite (and the main reason I changed).
Yes so am I. After one epic retreat in the Alps in a gathering storm with frozen ropes and after numerous abseils neither myself nor 3 friends could get the double fishermans undone. We had to re-distribute the gear and put both ropes in one rucksack. Never again, overhand for me every time now. It took me some time to be convinced but now that is all I use.
Al
In reply to kyebrooks:
Why knot (see what I did there) tie a double fisherman's knot but with both working ends facing the same direction? Doesn't distort, easy to untie and stands up as to avoid snagging!
Harder to tie than a simple double overhand, although Edelrid did some tests to show that a double overhand would invert...
Why knot (see what I did there) tie a double fisherman's knot but with both working ends facing the same direction? Doesn't distort, easy to untie and stands up as to avoid snagging!
Harder to tie than a simple double overhand, although Edelrid did some tests to show that a double overhand would invert...
In reply to Offwidth:
I only cos last time I flagged it up on here (the over-hand knot = EDK) I was told otherwise and pointed at various links.
"Anyone can make a mistake, it takes a fool to make the same mistake twice"
Chris
> (In reply to Chris Craggs)
>
> It might be Chris for those that have got muddled or have an arse elbow recognition issue.
>
> It might be Chris for those that have got muddled or have an arse elbow recognition issue.
I only cos last time I flagged it up on here (the over-hand knot = EDK) I was told otherwise and pointed at various links.
"Anyone can make a mistake, it takes a fool to make the same mistake twice"
Chris
In reply to bpmclimb:
No idea. Feel free to do so.
Personally the results referenced put in my mind a little question over the performance of the overhand in situations where it is wet. Given that as we unfortunately don't control the weather, and hence keeping the rope dry is not 100% within our power, then even though the question is a small one, I will take the "dead cert" double fishermans over something with an admittedly very small question mark, but a question mark nonetheless.
> (In reply to bpmclimb)
>
>
> Perhaps other tests have been done on abseil knots tied in wet ropes?
>
>
> Perhaps other tests have been done on abseil knots tied in wet ropes?
No idea. Feel free to do so.
Personally the results referenced put in my mind a little question over the performance of the overhand in situations where it is wet. Given that as we unfortunately don't control the weather, and hence keeping the rope dry is not 100% within our power, then even though the question is a small one, I will take the "dead cert" double fishermans over something with an admittedly very small question mark, but a question mark nonetheless.
In reply to Chris Craggs: Going back to the OP, why would you ever want to abseil past a knot, except in some totally committing situation which involves abseiling on one strand and abandoning two ropes?
In reply to MG:
Rarely, but as you've intimated, when you do, you really need to, and it's no place to learn.
> (In reply to Chris Craggs) Going back to the OP, why would you ever want to abseil past a knot, except in some totally committing situation which involves abseiling on one strand and abandoning two ropes?
Rarely, but as you've intimated, when you do, you really need to, and it's no place to learn.
In reply to kyebrooks: British death knot (over hand) every time. Just remember its got that name for a reason, it can undo when you first load it if it isn't tight. A double fisherman won't come undone even when you try.
t
t
In reply to Paul-Michael:
I think you will find that the European/English Death Knot is in fact the Figure of 8. This has been done to 'death' already on here.
Chris
> British death knot (over hand) every time. Just remember its got that name for a reason, it can undo when you first load it if it isn't tight. A double fisherman won't come undone even when you try.
>
>
> t
>
>
> t
I think you will find that the European/English Death Knot is in fact the Figure of 8. This has been done to 'death' already on here.
Chris
In reply to Andrew Lodge:
As a scientist, I found that Needle Sports article, and references therein, excellent when I first started worrying about this same topic a few years ago. Having read them, I decided to go with a well-dressed double-overhand knot with long tails (>50cm) every time, and feel very confident doing so.
Got a bit of a shock whilst climbing (or rather, abseiling) with the Swiss in the Alps though: they won't budge on using a single figure-of-eight, and my heart was in my mouth on a number of occasions...
As a scientist, I found that Needle Sports article, and references therein, excellent when I first started worrying about this same topic a few years ago. Having read them, I decided to go with a well-dressed double-overhand knot with long tails (>50cm) every time, and feel very confident doing so.
Got a bit of a shock whilst climbing (or rather, abseiling) with the Swiss in the Alps though: they won't budge on using a single figure-of-eight, and my heart was in my mouth on a number of occasions...
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Clearly, decisively not true : the "EDK" is an offset water knot,
"double overhand", "...". "EDK-8" is the offset fig. 8 joint.
To the OP, use the offset water knot, with --if applicable-- the thinner line positioned to be what *chokes* the main lines, and tie off its tail (only its) with a back-up overhand knot around the thicker line's tail, set snug to the first knot's body (thus preventing the knot from being pried open).
cf. www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=344686
&
www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgipost=2091962;search_string=offset%20fig.9;#2091962
*kN*
Clearly, decisively not true : the "EDK" is an offset water knot,
"double overhand", "...". "EDK-8" is the offset fig. 8 joint.
To the OP, use the offset water knot, with --if applicable-- the thinner line positioned to be what *chokes* the main lines, and tie off its tail (only its) with a back-up overhand knot around the thicker line's tail, set snug to the first knot's body (thus preventing the knot from being pried open).
cf. www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=344686
&
www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgipost=2091962;search_string=offset%20fig.9;#2091962
*kN*
In reply to knudeNoggin:
And a further reference, showing the orientation of diff.-dia. ropes in the knot:
www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2454662;
Talk about testing is somewhat funny. You can do pretty much all of the reasonable testing yourself, bouncing your own body weight (supplemented, if desired) against a single strand knotted line, and check for behavior in YOUR ropes. In use, expect half this force, with the knotted lines being just one side of the double-line abseil. Breaking strength? What possible difference could that make?!
*kN*
And a further reference, showing the orientation of diff.-dia. ropes in the knot:
www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2454662;
Talk about testing is somewhat funny. You can do pretty much all of the reasonable testing yourself, bouncing your own body weight (supplemented, if desired) against a single strand knotted line, and check for behavior in YOUR ropes. In use, expect half this force, with the knotted lines being just one side of the double-line abseil. Breaking strength? What possible difference could that make?!
*kN*
In reply to knudeNoggin:
Well there you go. When this came up a year or two ago I was convinced the overhand knot was the EKD but I was persuaded by various links that it was actually the Fo8. Now I don't know any more.
Chris
PS ....and no longer really care!
> (In reply to Chris Craggs)
>
> Clearly, decisively not true : the "EDK" is an offset water knot,
> "double overhand", "...". "EDK-8" is the offset fig. 8 joint.
>
>
> Clearly, decisively not true : the "EDK" is an offset water knot,
> "double overhand", "...". "EDK-8" is the offset fig. 8 joint.
>
Well there you go. When this came up a year or two ago I was convinced the overhand knot was the EKD but I was persuaded by various links that it was actually the Fo8. Now I don't know any more.
Chris
PS ....and no longer really care!
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Well EDK is not a technical name - its been applied to various knots even over the period I've been using the forum. I've seen it refer to either the overhand or fig 8 (offst ....etc.).
Well EDK is not a technical name - its been applied to various knots even over the period I've been using the forum. I've seen it refer to either the overhand or fig 8 (offst ....etc.).
In reply to kyebrooks: stay safe. Double Fisherman's is bombproof.
In reply to michael00693:
As someone who hasn't had to consider running away for a while, I'm buggered if I can remember how to tie a double fisherman's knot, but would struggle to feck up an overhand even if my mind were frazzled by the sort of circumstances that would demand it, I suspect I'd be safer with the latter even if there were a realistic chance (random elephant strike?) that I would require a stronger knot...
> (In reply to kyebrooks) stay safe. Double Fisherman's is bombproof.
As someone who hasn't had to consider running away for a while, I'm buggered if I can remember how to tie a double fisherman's knot, but would struggle to feck up an overhand even if my mind were frazzled by the sort of circumstances that would demand it, I suspect I'd be safer with the latter even if there were a realistic chance (random elephant strike?) that I would require a stronger knot...
In reply to michael00693:
...but is slower to tie, much harder to undo, and more prone to getting caught when you pull the ropes through
> stay safe. Double Fisherman's is bombproof.
...but is slower to tie, much harder to undo, and more prone to getting caught when you pull the ropes through
In reply to Toreador:
I have always used a double fishermans with a reef in the middle to make it easier to untie (like an earlier poster mentioned) ... does anyone know of any disadvantage to this?
I have always used a double fishermans with a reef in the middle to make it easier to untie (like an earlier poster mentioned) ... does anyone know of any disadvantage to this?
In reply to kyebrooks:
Since I began climbing a mere 35 years ago, I always used the simple overhand knot for abseiling. Important is though to pull all 4 ends individual. It's the best knot for the job. Everybody in Europe uses it. It doesn't get stuck easily. And it never failed me nor any of my friends.
Happy abseil and stop worrying.
Since I began climbing a mere 35 years ago, I always used the simple overhand knot for abseiling. Important is though to pull all 4 ends individual. It's the best knot for the job. Everybody in Europe uses it. It doesn't get stuck easily. And it never failed me nor any of my friends.
Happy abseil and stop worrying.
In reply to MG:
To get to the start of American Beauty on Lundy?
CJ.
>
> ...why would you ever want to abseil past a knot...?
> ...why would you ever want to abseil past a knot...?
To get to the start of American Beauty on Lundy?
CJ.
In reply to Anonymous:
Your right. In that case I have abseiled past a knot twice!
Chris
>
>
> To get to the start of American Beauty on Lundy?
>
> CJ.
>
> To get to the start of American Beauty on Lundy?
>
> CJ.
Your right. In that case I have abseiled past a knot twice!
Chris
In reply to mathew:
>I have always used a double fishermans with a reef in the middle to make it easier to untie (like an earlier poster mentioned) ... does anyone know of any disadvantage to this?
If you have no obstacles, have plenty of time, warm fingers, warm brain then it’s ok in certain situations.
So if you are in the alps, tired, on multiple abs and time is of the essence then it is a bad idea.
However even in normal situations I always prefer an overhand, better to have practiced something and have confidence in the knot rather than worrying about it when you suddenly find yourself in that potential disaster scenario.
I guess those who still advocate the double fisherman’s have not yet had wide enough abseil experience. I used to be one of those people who used only this type of knot myself.
>I have always used a double fishermans with a reef in the middle to make it easier to untie (like an earlier poster mentioned) ... does anyone know of any disadvantage to this?
If you have no obstacles, have plenty of time, warm fingers, warm brain then it’s ok in certain situations.
So if you are in the alps, tired, on multiple abs and time is of the essence then it is a bad idea.
However even in normal situations I always prefer an overhand, better to have practiced something and have confidence in the knot rather than worrying about it when you suddenly find yourself in that potential disaster scenario.
I guess those who still advocate the double fisherman’s have not yet had wide enough abseil experience. I used to be one of those people who used only this type of knot myself.
In reply to kyebrooks: There's a few ways as far as I'm aware.
I've only ever used the Double fishermans and it did the job, only problem is it gets stuck and is a barsteward to untie when it has been loaded.
You can use an overhand knot with at least 15 cm of tails, good on things like trees as it has a smooth back end and mooves quite freeley.
A reef knot with a half double fishermans either side.
They're the only ones I'm aware of.
I've only ever used the Double fishermans and it did the job, only problem is it gets stuck and is a barsteward to untie when it has been loaded.
You can use an overhand knot with at least 15 cm of tails, good on things like trees as it has a smooth back end and mooves quite freeley.
A reef knot with a half double fishermans either side.
They're the only ones I'm aware of.
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