UKC

My head tells me to trust the good cam placements but i just dont?

Non camming pro leaves me feeling so much safer!

Can you say anything that can change my mind?


Jonna

In reply to slapperv6:
I think I prefer a cam to nuts when climbing a route where the only protection is available in breaks. e.g Hargreaves Original on nuts certainly requires big nuts.

In reply to gribble:

I realise only cams will do in plenty of situations, and i use them readily, i just dont get the same psychological security.


J

In reply to slapperv6: i find cams easier to trust, as its more clear whether a placement is good. My friend 3 has taken sixteen proper falls without a slip!

In reply to jacobjlloyd:

Sounds like you fall off too much

In reply to slapperv6:

I have to say I much prefer a bomber nut placement, but that's because I place cams quite infrequently and am more used to assessing good nut placements than cam placements.

In reply to slapperv6:
You are wise to be sceptical about the security of cams - I don't think it is as easy to judge their placement compared to a nut (I advocate a degree of scepticism with nuts as well, but I am chicken). The factors you cannot judge include the frictional qualities of the rock (e.g. is it in smooth rock,a damp or dirty crack?)and how the cam will move due to the rope after you have climbed past it. I know of individuals who have pulled "bomber" cams out of parallel cracks in mountain crag rock - I also have fallen on a friend 0 in a very iffy placement which saved me from decking out.

Protection is only that if you know it will hold - all that sticks in a crack is not necessarily protection and gravity is an invariable we climb against.
Be safe and have fun

In reply to slapperv6:
My only ever trad fall was on a single piece of gear, a friend 0 in a wet slot only just deep enough to contain it. I stopped 6 inches from a large boulder headfirst upside down. I love them...

In reply to slapperv6:

It's all about the tricams

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Yes. Tricams are beautiful. I must buy some more!

In reply to slapperv6:I have always prefered a good nut placement. I have had quite a few cams pull out on me ,granted mostly in sandstone.I think something to think about is when a fall is taken there is a split second where the rope stretches then the bounce back takes the weight off the cam then back on ???

In reply to slapperv6: Given that both the nut and the cam placement is bomber, i will argue this point in favor of the cam;

when a nut is loaded, it's always trying to pull out of the placement, what is holding it is the rock around it..but when a cam is loaded it mechanically wants to stay in the rock more. The nut is fighting against you solely relying on the rock around it, a cam is on your side, doing it's best to stay in for you. No brainier for me...

C

In reply to slapperv6: Nothing is 100% - The most important thing (whether cams or passive pro) is to do your best to get your gear as bomber as you can placement wise.
Having taken lead falls on small nuts and cams they all work great.
I think the fact that cams move about tends to worry some people. But once those little suckers get exposed to any fall force they will grip like f@ck (especially on grit).

So just concentrate on placement and regularly place gear, then if the worst happens and a placement does fail the next will hold.

In reply to slapperv6:

I slightly prefer a nut in a good placement to a cam in a good placement. Two reason. One - I've had cams pull on me before from apparently good placements, and I've never had a good wire pull. Two - its slightly more difficult to ensure that a cam doesn't slightly alter its position after placement climbing above and past it. But the difference is marginal. I'd quite happily trust both and don't really think twice about it.

In reply to tetley: I dont understand - how is it possible to fall off too much? ; )

In reply to jacobjlloyd: I think the general idea is upward movement mate.

In reply to jacobjlloyd:







Maybe you'd fall less if you didnae carry a single axe and cotton T-shirt...

In reply to slapperv6:

I've only ever taken one leader fall and that was failing to get over a bulge and falling back a couple of metres onto a cam in a parallel crack. I'm happy with cams but note the comments below about checking the placements (true of all gear I guess).

In reply to slapperv6:

Given that 50% of my falls have been on a cam, and 50% on a nut, then I'm happy with cams!

PS, I have taken 2 trad falls, one onto a nut and the other a cam!

In reply to abbotsmike: i think it isn't about the peice of gear but the placement itself and more importantly the direction of forces should a fall occur.
took a lob (3mtr) yesterday onto a well placed friend one and it was fine.

In reply to slapperv6: I probably trust a bomber nut more than a friend but I trust a dodgy friend more than a dodgy nut simply because they naturally stay in more. Hexes on the other hand I can't say I trust any bigger than green torque nut as they are just so unwieldy

In reply to slapperv6: psychologically a bomber nut placement always does the trick however the biggest falls ive taken have all been onto cams and im here to tell the tale so they work .by there very nature they are prone to movement but place thoughtfully and use longer quickdraws or extend with slings they truly will become your friends .

In reply to USBRIT:

I doubt you would ever bounce back up, but, even if you did, I can't see why this would be a problem.

In reply to slapperv6:

I think the main thing to me is that cams will take a multi-directional pull, whereas nuts will tend to be fine in one direction, but submit them to a pull in another direction (especially upwards) then they tend to lift out.

I've taken some big falls on cams, including incredibly bad placements (the possibilities available at the time, not my own poor placement) and they've always saved me from serious injury.

However, like nuts, they take skill to place well. But placed well I would (and have) trusted them with my life.

In reply to slapperv6:

Personally I trust passive protection much more than actively camming protection just from experience. I've had cams pulled out in a fall before but been saved my nuts (or hexs) on many occasions.

Plus nuts are light so you get more protection for the same weight!

In reply to slapperv6:

It very much depends on the placement. However, on the whole, I agree and trust passive pro more than cams.

The only gear I've had rip out in a fall have been cams, which were admittedly poor placements (and therefore it's a little unfair to point the finger when nothing else was available). One cam was a micro where the rock exploded around it, the other a rubbish placement in limestone.

I always tend to feel that I know when passive pro is well placed and will then totally trust it. With cams, there's sometimes a niggle at the back of my mind. On the flip side, as JohnHat said, cams are multi-directional and that is sometimes a significant factor and comfort. There's just more think about with cams.

In reply to slapperv6:

Given the choice, I'd go for a good, solid nut or hex any day - but I'll quite happily shove in a cam if I can't find a solid nut placement or need to get something in in a hurry or in somewhere I can't see, even if that then gives me the security to find a good nut.

In reply to JonC:

Think you've hit the nail on the head Jon, its obvious when a nut is 100% whereas im never absolutley sure with a cam.

Good to hear all the lobs on to small/badly placed cam stories!

J

In reply to slapperv6: Yeah, would love to hear some more stories about big falls.

For my two-pence worth I was belaying a mate on a traverse was a six metre high warm up wall that overhangs. I set up pre-placed gear as it was incredibly fiddly to find decent gear in the weird sandstone breaks.

My buddy clipped a DMM 4CU 1.25 then traversed past it to the next pro. I started to pay out slack, thinking he was going for the clip. I then see he has sewing machine leg and realise he is about to bail. I pull in slack just as he pops off and takes a whipper of a pendulum. I swear to God his feet actually dragged along the deck (he wore my Evolv Defy's which bear the skid marks to this day) as he swung through his pendulum.

The cam held beautifully. It bit into the break and actually crumbled some stone but it held fast.

I think there is some exponential increase in its holding when subject to increasing force.

In reply to slapperv6:

I have total trust in both. It is my ability to place them that worries me.

In reply to slapperv6: I place cams on all possibly placements, over nuts. Faster, simpler and good enugh. I only use nuts for non-cam-placements. I have ripped two cams, one in a fall and one in a "hang", both was crappy for start.. In aid climbing situations i have ripped the same nut placements twice, it was a loose flake... Sometimes i trust gear, sometimes not, but it depends on the placement, not the gear. Cams are good enugh.

(Fyi, i don't trust that many bolts)

In reply to CragRat_Trad:


What? A cam isn't on anyones side, it's a few pieces of metal and plastic, it doesn't 'want' to do anything! It relies solely on the rock around it the same as any other sort of protection.

Personally I prefer a good nut over a good cam placement although I've fallen on both types of pro and neither have ever given way. My absolute favourite, however, is a good 'donk donk donk' hex placement. ;0)

In reply to subseasniper:
"I think there is some exponential increase in its holding when subject to increasing force."

It's not exponential, the force on each edge of the crack is approximately twice the force being pulled out/down on the cam stem.

In reply to slapperv6:
I believe a good large nut in a text book placement is more relieable than a cam:

Nuts don't have moving parts, there are no trigger wires to break, no springs to pop (which has happened to me once in the past), no bits to jam.

They are easier to inspect, small to medium cams are hard to properly inspect to see that all the cams are in good contact with the rock.

Cams exert more force on the rock than nuts and over a smaller area, the rock is more likely to fail.

There seem to be more stories of well placed cams failing inexplicably, nuts which pop are usually known to be average/poor placements when you put them in.

That said I would trust a good cam and climb above it, but if the moves were at my limit and I was high up I'd want more than one between me and the ground, but then the same goes for a nut.