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Noticed that three of the in situ pegs at the Castell Helen abseil point have been clipped with screwgates and then had resin over the gates preventing you from removing or opening then, can someone explain the advantage of this!
In reply to dannymitch: nobody nicks the screwgates :p
In reply to chrisbaggy: But why do you have to leave them there adding to the pegs, why not just equalize the pegs with some tat and leave that there
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In reply to dannymitch:
On the subject of the abseil I felt the nut around the pegs pop as I abseiled about a month ago. It turns out the rock around the nut split...
Back those pegs up as much as possible!
On the subject of the abseil I felt the nut around the pegs pop as I abseiled about a month ago. It turns out the rock around the nut split...
Back those pegs up as much as possible!
In reply to James Oswald:
Set up a secure abseil station ( yes-with bolts) before someone is killed!
Set up a secure abseil station ( yes-with bolts) before someone is killed!
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In reply to Last Thursday:
I wouldn't be against that!
I wouldn't be against that!
In reply to James Oswald: Oh dear. This could be interesting... <settles back with a jumbo coke and a bucket of popcorn>
In reply to Last Thursday:
Bolted abseils do not prevent people being killed - they just encourage less experienced folk to 'give it a go'. Abseiling accidents very rarley involve anchors failing and nearly always involve things like abbing off the end of the rope or clipping into the tails rather than the main rope.
Bolted abseils do not prevent people being killed - they just encourage less experienced folk to 'give it a go'. Abseiling accidents very rarley involve anchors failing and nearly always involve things like abbing off the end of the rope or clipping into the tails rather than the main rope.
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In reply to mike kann: I think that that bolts where placed at Castell Helen a good few years but then removed.
In reply to mike kann: Here we go again, salted or toffee?
In reply to Jimbob11: Definately toffee to counter the bitterness.
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In reply to dannymitch:
i like to post this every time we have a thread on Castell Helen ab station...
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=117356
i like to post this every time we have a thread on Castell Helen ab station...
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=117356
In reply to mike kann: Good choice!
In reply to Dom Whillans: I think that may need backing up!
In reply to GrahamD:
Your comments ,in general, are true,but this particular location is different.
It is hardly likely that beginners will " have a go" at this location.
It is heavily used and in this day and age , abseiling from pitons is surely only acceptable if there is no alternative.
I do not see what the objection is to a secure abseil station . It is simply an access point to a lot of popular climbs.
Your comments ,in general, are true,but this particular location is different.
It is hardly likely that beginners will " have a go" at this location.
It is heavily used and in this day and age , abseiling from pitons is surely only acceptable if there is no alternative.
I do not see what the objection is to a secure abseil station . It is simply an access point to a lot of popular climbs.
In reply to Last Thurs
Why? Nobody has to go down there if they aren't happy with the anchors.
> Set up a secure abseil station ( yes-with bolts) before someone is killed!
Why? Nobody has to go down there if they aren't happy with the anchors.
In reply to dannymitch:
Who would we be trying to protect by bolting it? Those who have made an informed decision that the abseil is acceptable to them, or those with not enough experience to be able to make that decision?
As a climbing community, we're under no responsibility to try and protect others from their own informed decisions under basic principles of autonomy.
And no matter what steps are taken, we will never be able to protect inexperienced climbers from ill-informed decisions (nor, in my opinion, should we try).
Who would we be trying to protect by bolting it? Those who have made an informed decision that the abseil is acceptable to them, or those with not enough experience to be able to make that decision?
As a climbing community, we're under no responsibility to try and protect others from their own informed decisions under basic principles of autonomy.
And no matter what steps are taken, we will never be able to protect inexperienced climbers from ill-informed decisions (nor, in my opinion, should we try).
In reply to Ed Brighteldman: Without getting into the whole bolting debate, I just cannot see the point of clipping some screwgates into the pegs and then putting resin over the gates so you cannot remove or open them just seems pointless,
In reply to dannymitch:
Sorry, that wasn't actually a reply to the OP!
I agree that it seems a bit pointless. There's no reason why you shouldn't just use your own screwgates. In situ screwgates are useful where you would otherwise have to leave your own gear behind, but it doesn't make much sense here.
All it does is ensure that once they're rusted and unsafe, the whole system has to be removed and replaced...
Sorry, that wasn't actually a reply to the OP!
I agree that it seems a bit pointless. There's no reason why you shouldn't just use your own screwgates. In situ screwgates are useful where you would otherwise have to leave your own gear behind, but it doesn't make much sense here.
All it does is ensure that once they're rusted and unsafe, the whole system has to be removed and replaced...
In reply to Robert Durran:
Thats not the point, all Im suggesting is removing a potential objective danger that is unecessary.
What is the issue here? The pegs will eventually fail. The natural gear placements are far from satisfactory. Sorry , I do not understand the objections to a permanent anchor station.
Thats not the point, all Im suggesting is removing a potential objective danger that is unecessary.
What is the issue here? The pegs will eventually fail. The natural gear placements are far from satisfactory. Sorry , I do not understand the objections to a permanent anchor station.
In reply to dannymitch:
you tie your ab rope into the screwgates and away you go, and no one pinches the screwgates.
you tie your ab rope into the screwgates and away you go, and no one pinches the screwgates.
In reply to Last Thursday:
All dangers in climbing are unnecessary. How do you determine which ones you want to sanitise and which ones you don't?
> all Im suggesting is removing a potential objective danger that is unecessary.
All dangers in climbing are unnecessary. How do you determine which ones you want to sanitise and which ones you don't?
In reply to Dom Whillans: So once you have tied your re-threaded fig of 8 into the first how do you recommend we connect to the other two Krabs?
In reply to Dom Whillans:
What was wrong with using your own or just tying into the pegs directly?
> (In reply to dannymitch)
> you tie your ab rope into the screwgates and away you go, and no one pinches the screwgates.
> you tie your ab rope into the screwgates and away you go, and no one pinches the screwgates.
What was wrong with using your own or just tying into the pegs directly?
In reply to dannymitch:
You could just tie more than one knot to try and equalise it all together... I mean if you're abseiling in at castel helen I'm going assume you're a trad climber and therefore you might know something about equalising things?
You could just tie more than one knot to try and equalise it all together... I mean if you're abseiling in at castel helen I'm going assume you're a trad climber and therefore you might know something about equalising things?
In reply to mlmatt: Yes Matt I am a trad climber and I do know how to equalize anchors however when you are unable to open the screwgates because of the resin it does make the whole job a lot harder so you generally end up clipping another screwgate into the ones that are already there, so it is pretty pointless in them been there1
In reply to mlmatt:
that's about the size of it...
> (In reply to dannymitch)
>
> You could just tie more than one knot to try and equalise it all together... I mean if you're abseiling in at castel helen I'm going assume you're a trad climber and therefore you might know something about equalising things?
>
> You could just tie more than one knot to try and equalise it all together... I mean if you're abseiling in at castel helen I'm going assume you're a trad climber and therefore you might know something about equalising things?
that's about the size of it...
In reply to Ed Brighteldman:
Seems like a needlessly reductive argument that would result in no-one bothering with maintaining or re-equipping routes that rely on fixed gear, and all climbers taking needless risks because of it.
Climbing involves managing risks, so you're right from that perspective. We all make choices about how high a level of risk is taken. But once we're talking about a poor ab station with half a dozen pegs in various stages of decay lodged in shattered rock that approach reaches a logical crisis.
If it is dangerous, let's get serious about a sustainable and safe access point to Castell Helen.
Jim
>
> All dangers in climbing are unnecessary. How do you determine which ones you want to sanitise and which ones you don't?
> All dangers in climbing are unnecessary. How do you determine which ones you want to sanitise and which ones you don't?
Seems like a needlessly reductive argument that would result in no-one bothering with maintaining or re-equipping routes that rely on fixed gear, and all climbers taking needless risks because of it.
Climbing involves managing risks, so you're right from that perspective. We all make choices about how high a level of risk is taken. But once we're talking about a poor ab station with half a dozen pegs in various stages of decay lodged in shattered rock that approach reaches a logical crisis.
If it is dangerous, let's get serious about a sustainable and safe access point to Castell Helen.
Jim
In reply to dannymitch:
Re-threaded overhands on bights? Not suggesting the mess has been improved by gluing krabs into it, simply that closed rings don't preclude you from tieing into them.
On a more serious note: I wouldn't chop it were it to be cleaned up and sensibly bolted. Nor would I bat an eyelid at abseiling off what's there, it's just that what's there sometimes feels rather more like a surrealist art installation poking fun at us than a fixed belay. Ho hum.
Castel Helen ab mess trolls are surely the new '3PS grade!?!'.
jk
> (In reply to Dom Whillans) So once you have tied your re-threaded fig of 8 into the first how do you recommend we connect to the other two Krabs?
Re-threaded overhands on bights? Not suggesting the mess has been improved by gluing krabs into it, simply that closed rings don't preclude you from tieing into them.
On a more serious note: I wouldn't chop it were it to be cleaned up and sensibly bolted. Nor would I bat an eyelid at abseiling off what's there, it's just that what's there sometimes feels rather more like a surrealist art installation poking fun at us than a fixed belay. Ho hum.
Castel Helen ab mess trolls are surely the new '3PS grade!?!'.
jk
In reply to dannymitch:
I guess that's rather the point.
As it was (in its rare tat free state) the first team there clips the pegs, probably all of them because they're rusty and team one is s***ing it a bit. The next team either has to use team one's ropes (many won't for various reasons) or tie into team one's krabs or clip team one's crabs. Then team three, four etc are faced with the same dilemma. Meanwhile team one finishes and goes to de-rig their ab and finds they're faced with extricating their kit and re-rigging everyone elses. It's annoying and there's scope for a serious f*** up especially is team one is a bit wet behind the ears (lets face it, Castel Helen is very much beginners Gogarth). Now lets say team four decide to bail up the ab rope (can't say I'd fancy it but people occasionally do). Is the belay how they left it, is it still safe?
The tat solves some of these issues but then it's ugly and people don't trust it so it gets cut away from time to time. Rings on the pegs actually aren't such an awful idea (if the pegs must stay). Glued (alloy I'm presuming) krabs are however a pretty shoddy implementation given they'll be ruined within a year by the sea air.
jk
> Yes Matt I am a trad climber and I do know how to equalize anchors however when you are unable to open the screwgates because of the resin it does make the whole job a lot harder so you generally end up clipping another screwgate into the ones that are already there, so it is pretty pointless in them been there1
I guess that's rather the point.
As it was (in its rare tat free state) the first team there clips the pegs, probably all of them because they're rusty and team one is s***ing it a bit. The next team either has to use team one's ropes (many won't for various reasons) or tie into team one's krabs or clip team one's crabs. Then team three, four etc are faced with the same dilemma. Meanwhile team one finishes and goes to de-rig their ab and finds they're faced with extricating their kit and re-rigging everyone elses. It's annoying and there's scope for a serious f*** up especially is team one is a bit wet behind the ears (lets face it, Castel Helen is very much beginners Gogarth). Now lets say team four decide to bail up the ab rope (can't say I'd fancy it but people occasionally do). Is the belay how they left it, is it still safe?
The tat solves some of these issues but then it's ugly and people don't trust it so it gets cut away from time to time. Rings on the pegs actually aren't such an awful idea (if the pegs must stay). Glued (alloy I'm presuming) krabs are however a pretty shoddy implementation given they'll be ruined within a year by the sea air.
jk
In reply to Hephaestus:
That's the concept I struggle with I'm afraid. Climbing is itself a needless risk.
Who says that abbing off a bunch of old pegs is needless compared to climbing a route with dodgy belays or minimal gear? But (hopefully) you wouldn't think about bolting those.
Once you start removing the danger of a slightly dodgy abseil, what danger do you stop at? There's a big old runout on Kalahri 50m away which is pretty dangerous that would be made a lot safer with a couple of bolts...
Personally, having to really think about abseils just adds an extra element of excitement to sea cliff climbing. I don't see why that should be taken away.
> and all climbers taking needless risks because of it.
That's the concept I struggle with I'm afraid. Climbing is itself a needless risk.
Who says that abbing off a bunch of old pegs is needless compared to climbing a route with dodgy belays or minimal gear? But (hopefully) you wouldn't think about bolting those.
Once you start removing the danger of a slightly dodgy abseil, what danger do you stop at? There's a big old runout on Kalahri 50m away which is pretty dangerous that would be made a lot safer with a couple of bolts...
Personally, having to really think about abseils just adds an extra element of excitement to sea cliff climbing. I don't see why that should be taken away.
In reply to dannymitch:
I've tested it good and proper when I did something a little bit stupid on my way down to the niche once.
Basically, I needed 2 abs to get to the niche cos I only have 50m ropes, so I went to the ledge and anchored a second ab on the the first rope so I didn't have to leave gear behind or use the crappy pegs. I got a sudden sinking feeling when I started the second ab because I didn't get all the slack - derr.
Anyway, my conclusion: bomber belay.
I've tested it good and proper when I did something a little bit stupid on my way down to the niche once.
Basically, I needed 2 abs to get to the niche cos I only have 50m ropes, so I went to the ledge and anchored a second ab on the the first rope so I didn't have to leave gear behind or use the crappy pegs. I got a sudden sinking feeling when I started the second ab because I didn't get all the slack - derr.
Anyway, my conclusion: bomber belay.
In reply to Ed Brighteldman:
If I was able to get to all the routes I wanted to do without abseiling, I would never abseil again. But unfortunuately that won't happen. The next best thing is for all the abseils to be as safe and as well maintained as possible.
I'd rather save my adrenaline fix for the routes coming back up than for accessing them in the first place. Then everyone can choose just how risky it all is. After all, it seems unfair to someone looking for a VS sized fix to have to undertake a E4 equivalent abseil when it would be really easy to make the whole process much safer.
> (In reply to Hephaestus)
>
> [...]
>
> That's the concept I struggle with I'm afraid. Climbing is itself a needless risk.
> ...
> Personally, having to really think about abseils just adds an extra element of excitement to sea cliff climbing. I don't see why that should be taken away.
>
> [...]
>
> That's the concept I struggle with I'm afraid. Climbing is itself a needless risk.
> ...
> Personally, having to really think about abseils just adds an extra element of excitement to sea cliff climbing. I don't see why that should be taken away.
If I was able to get to all the routes I wanted to do without abseiling, I would never abseil again. But unfortunuately that won't happen. The next best thing is for all the abseils to be as safe and as well maintained as possible.
I'd rather save my adrenaline fix for the routes coming back up than for accessing them in the first place. Then everyone can choose just how risky it all is. After all, it seems unfair to someone looking for a VS sized fix to have to undertake a E4 equivalent abseil when it would be really easy to make the whole process much safer.
In reply to Hephaestus:
That's a valid opinion, but I personally don't agree. I think access to climbing is an intrinsic part of the climbing experience. What makes Scotland special is partly the remoteness of getting to where you want to climb. In the same light, what partly makes Gogarth so exciting is getting to the base of the routes in the first place (the abb down Wen slab is spectacular, for example, and a huge part of the experience for me). But I do recognise that as my own opinion.
As for it being unfair to a VS leader. I agree it might be, but who said climbing has to be fair? If the best VS pitch in the world was halfway up an E6, would anyone think of making a bolt ladder so that the VS leader could aid up to it?
Basically, there are a group of people who want to keep the excitement and a group of people who want to make it safer and more accessible. Obviously, the two will never agree on what needs to be done. And in absence of an agreement, the only feasible alternative is to retain the status quo.
> If I was able to get to all the routes I wanted to do without abseiling, I would never abseil again. But unfortunuately that won't happen. The next best thing is for all the abseils to be as safe and as well maintained as possible.
That's a valid opinion, but I personally don't agree. I think access to climbing is an intrinsic part of the climbing experience. What makes Scotland special is partly the remoteness of getting to where you want to climb. In the same light, what partly makes Gogarth so exciting is getting to the base of the routes in the first place (the abb down Wen slab is spectacular, for example, and a huge part of the experience for me). But I do recognise that as my own opinion.
As for it being unfair to a VS leader. I agree it might be, but who said climbing has to be fair? If the best VS pitch in the world was halfway up an E6, would anyone think of making a bolt ladder so that the VS leader could aid up to it?
Basically, there are a group of people who want to keep the excitement and a group of people who want to make it safer and more accessible. Obviously, the two will never agree on what needs to be done. And in absence of an agreement, the only feasible alternative is to retain the status quo.
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