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Is it possible to improve strength and endurance at the same time? Typically I try to do both in most of my training sessions, starting with strength then switching to endurance when I'm too tired to climb as hard as I can.
I understand periodizing is the most efficient way to improve but my life and the Scottish weather aren't predictable enough to make it worth peaking for a certain period!
So, what I really want to know is whether what I'm doing is counter-productive and if I'd be better off sticking to one or the other in each session.
I understand periodizing is the most efficient way to improve but my life and the Scottish weather aren't predictable enough to make it worth peaking for a certain period!
So, what I really want to know is whether what I'm doing is counter-productive and if I'd be better off sticking to one or the other in each session.
In reply to Brendan:
Not sure that there is a correct answer to this, I think that its a case of finding out what works for you personally....
I don't do weights and cardio on the same day; in fact I find that hitting the same muscle groups with weights more than twice a week IS counter-productive for me.
Not sure that there is a correct answer to this, I think that its a case of finding out what works for you personally....
I don't do weights and cardio on the same day; in fact I find that hitting the same muscle groups with weights more than twice a week IS counter-productive for me.
In reply to Brendan:
Why not split over two sessions, one for strength and the other for endurance?
Hitting the same muscle more than once a week isn't counter productive IMO.
Why not split over two sessions, one for strength and the other for endurance?
Hitting the same muscle more than once a week isn't counter productive IMO.
In reply to Brendan:
i reckon so.
a ratio of about 2 minutes of active recovery to every 1 minute of strength and another 30 seconds of antagonizing movement, for 9 or more 'sets'.
whether its on a wall, a board, in a gym or outside it works as good foundational work for both.
in other sessions tweak it one way or the other - moves requiring more strength but less sets, less strength/more sets.
a regular ice session i do that follows just this is:
- 3mins hard overhanging stuff (feet free hand switches, pull ups, fig fours etc)
- 90secs push ups, simple lifts
- 6 minutes sled drag/medicine ball/easy bouldering/step up etc
i reckon so.
a ratio of about 2 minutes of active recovery to every 1 minute of strength and another 30 seconds of antagonizing movement, for 9 or more 'sets'.
whether its on a wall, a board, in a gym or outside it works as good foundational work for both.
in other sessions tweak it one way or the other - moves requiring more strength but less sets, less strength/more sets.
a regular ice session i do that follows just this is:
- 3mins hard overhanging stuff (feet free hand switches, pull ups, fig fours etc)
- 90secs push ups, simple lifts
- 6 minutes sled drag/medicine ball/easy bouldering/step up etc
In reply to Removed User:
hitting the same muscle group more than twice a week may or may not be counter productive but there are many things to consider. in the past i have trained leg with heavy weights (up to about 180kg squats) 3 times a week and made good progress but normally wouldnt hit muscle groups more than once or twice a week.
hitting the same muscle group more than twice a week may or may not be counter productive but there are many things to consider. in the past i have trained leg with heavy weights (up to about 180kg squats) 3 times a week and made good progress but normally wouldnt hit muscle groups more than once or twice a week.
In reply to JTDL:
possible but its a bit like chasing two rabbits at the same time
> (In reply to Brendan)
>
> Why not split over two sessions, one for strength and the other for endurance?
>
>
> Why not split over two sessions, one for strength and the other for endurance?
>
possible but its a bit like chasing two rabbits at the same time
In reply to lost1977:
which is what the OP wants to do...
Works well split over 2 sessions say in one week, one strength/power and the other endurance.
which is what the OP wants to do...
Works well split over 2 sessions say in one week, one strength/power and the other endurance.
In reply to Brendan:
Have you thought about using microcycles? You can work on power for a week or two, then switch to endurance for a week or two. You then end up with a bit of a juggling act, whereby sometimes your power is optimal and sometimes your endurance is optimal, but neither will ever drop far. I doubt you'll gain much very rapidly though.
If you really want to improve quickly, then I think that proper periodisation is probably important - really focus on your strength for a decent period of time. Gains you make in this area won't be reversed easily, especially with a weekly maintenance session while you work other aspects.
Have you thought about using microcycles? You can work on power for a week or two, then switch to endurance for a week or two. You then end up with a bit of a juggling act, whereby sometimes your power is optimal and sometimes your endurance is optimal, but neither will ever drop far. I doubt you'll gain much very rapidly though.
If you really want to improve quickly, then I think that proper periodisation is probably important - really focus on your strength for a decent period of time. Gains you make in this area won't be reversed easily, especially with a weekly maintenance session while you work other aspects.
In reply to JTDL:
training strength and endurance on the same day can work but its far from optimal
training strength and endurance in the same week can work but its far from optimal
training separately in a well planned periodisation much better
(notice the use of can and optimal)
training strength and endurance on the same day can work but its far from optimal
training strength and endurance in the same week can work but its far from optimal
training separately in a well planned periodisation much better
(notice the use of can and optimal)
In reply to Brendan:
Hi Brendan,
Something I am intending to do a lot of this winter is strength training in the morning with an Aerobic Capacity session in the evening. AeroCap is at a slightly higher level of intensity than what is commonly practiced for ARC/SACC work. A typical AeroCap workout is a 4x4 where you do 4sets of 4 routes back-to-back about 3/4 grades below your normal onsight level. This can also been done on bouldering circuits. Various regimans are possible.The AeroCap work shouldn't be especially counter-productive re strength gains and may offer good recovery benefits once you get used to it.
Hi Brendan,
Something I am intending to do a lot of this winter is strength training in the morning with an Aerobic Capacity session in the evening. AeroCap is at a slightly higher level of intensity than what is commonly practiced for ARC/SACC work. A typical AeroCap workout is a 4x4 where you do 4sets of 4 routes back-to-back about 3/4 grades below your normal onsight level. This can also been done on bouldering circuits. Various regimans are possible.The AeroCap work shouldn't be especially counter-productive re strength gains and may offer good recovery benefits once you get used to it.
1
In reply to shark: That's interesting, would you say that doing that workout (or a ARC/PE workout) straight after strength training is counter-productive? Unfortunately doing two workouts in a day isn't possible for me because of my work schedule.
I'm judging from your profile that you know a lot about training!
I'm judging from your profile that you know a lot about training!
In reply to Brendan:
It should be fine.
I'm finding doing circuits a lot less hassle and better for getting the intensity right for AeroCap. I'm doing 20/10's where you do 20moves and take 20 secs rest followed by 10 moves with 10secs rest 4 times to make 120 moves for a set. 10 mins rest betwen sets for 3 or 4 sets.
Be aware that if all your sessions are like this ie Strength followed by AeroCap then you are missing out training strength endurance (on routes or boulder circuits) so you need to think how and when you will work this into your schedule as well.
It should be fine.
I'm finding doing circuits a lot less hassle and better for getting the intensity right for AeroCap. I'm doing 20/10's where you do 20moves and take 20 secs rest followed by 10 moves with 10secs rest 4 times to make 120 moves for a set. 10 mins rest betwen sets for 3 or 4 sets.
Be aware that if all your sessions are like this ie Strength followed by AeroCap then you are missing out training strength endurance (on routes or boulder circuits) so you need to think how and when you will work this into your schedule as well.
In reply to shark: Cool,thanks.
In reply to ice.solo: crickey that sounds like a rocky montage, do you do it to music?
In reply to Brendan:
Sorry missed that bit where you mentioned PE. Power(Strength) Endurance after a Strength workout is not a good idea - maybe OK if you are at a higher level of development (onsighting 8a's?)
Sorry missed that bit where you mentioned PE. Power(Strength) Endurance after a Strength workout is not a good idea - maybe OK if you are at a higher level of development (onsighting 8a's?)
In reply to shark:
I bust out some ARC (or, less frequently, aerocap) at the end of strength sessions. I think saving PE for it's own session is better (and it's after these sessions that I ususally do my aerocap).
I bust out some ARC (or, less frequently, aerocap) at the end of strength sessions. I think saving PE for it's own session is better (and it's after these sessions that I ususally do my aerocap).
In reply to abarro81:
Makes sense
For anyone confused about the terminology broadly reflect trainable physiological processes that are different enough to training seperately.
There are diffrent ways to cut the cake depending on who is doing the cutting but broadly:
ARC/SACC - Usually continuous traversing with a very mild pump
AeroCap - Like ARC but more intense (2grades harder?) usually broken down into sets (ie4x4) with a terminal pump to be avoided at all costs
AnCap/PE (Strength Endurance)Hard continuous moves leading to terminal pump/shutdown
Strength - Hard bouldering, campussing, max deadhangs, bar work, bachar laddering etc
For further investigation / maximium confusion look at page10 here: http://ukbouldering.com/media/pdf/principlestraining.pdf
Makes sense
For anyone confused about the terminology broadly reflect trainable physiological processes that are different enough to training seperately.
There are diffrent ways to cut the cake depending on who is doing the cutting but broadly:
ARC/SACC - Usually continuous traversing with a very mild pump
AeroCap - Like ARC but more intense (2grades harder?) usually broken down into sets (ie4x4) with a terminal pump to be avoided at all costs
AnCap/PE (Strength Endurance)Hard continuous moves leading to terminal pump/shutdown
Strength - Hard bouldering, campussing, max deadhangs, bar work, bachar laddering etc
For further investigation / maximium confusion look at page10 here: http://ukbouldering.com/media/pdf/principlestraining.pdf
In reply to shark: Hi Shark.
Would you be able to explain what the difference is between AeroCap and AeroPow, also AnCap and AnPow? I thought I understood Endurance, Power endurance and Power but not this. Are they just splitting Endurance and PE into 4 regimes?
Also am I right in thinking the four (An/Aero/Cap/Pow) are just stamina/PE regimes, and basic strength (recruitment and muscle growth) is not factored in at all?
Thanks!
Would you be able to explain what the difference is between AeroCap and AeroPow, also AnCap and AnPow? I thought I understood Endurance, Power endurance and Power but not this. Are they just splitting Endurance and PE into 4 regimes?
Also am I right in thinking the four (An/Aero/Cap/Pow) are just stamina/PE regimes, and basic strength (recruitment and muscle growth) is not factored in at all?
Thanks!
In reply to long:
Hi long (Andy?)
I would if I could! AeroPower and AnPower are things I struggle getting my head around from a theory point of view. They are part of the Binney model which as you rightly point out centres on energy systems but undoubtedly the AnCap and AnPower work that you would do would lead to recruitment and muscle growth as a consequence.I have sat in front whilst Dave Binney has explained how they differ but it has left my head spinning!
The name "AerobicPower" seems almost a contradiction in terms but the table on page6 explains the metabolic effects of each and the table on page 10 gives practical guidance for constructing the exercises/sessions.
I share what I guess is your unease that off-the-wall recruitment and muscle growth work doesn't appear integrated, or even mentioned. But perhaps that is the way it should be i.e. the place for weights, campusing or fingerboarding should only being supplementary add-ons. I've just blogged about this as I am trying to construct my winter training programme.
Hi long (Andy?)
I would if I could! AeroPower and AnPower are things I struggle getting my head around from a theory point of view. They are part of the Binney model which as you rightly point out centres on energy systems but undoubtedly the AnCap and AnPower work that you would do would lead to recruitment and muscle growth as a consequence.I have sat in front whilst Dave Binney has explained how they differ but it has left my head spinning!
The name "AerobicPower" seems almost a contradiction in terms but the table on page6 explains the metabolic effects of each and the table on page 10 gives practical guidance for constructing the exercises/sessions.
I share what I guess is your unease that off-the-wall recruitment and muscle growth work doesn't appear integrated, or even mentioned. But perhaps that is the way it should be i.e. the place for weights, campusing or fingerboarding should only being supplementary add-ons. I've just blogged about this as I am trying to construct my winter training programme.
In reply to long:
Here's my understanding of it. No doubt it's wrong, but maybe Tom will be along shortly to explain properly.
ARC - base endurance (like long gentle runs for a run/bike/swim equivalent)
AeroCap - slightly harder base endurance (like tempo runs)
AeroPower - same as what we might normally call PE or anaerobic endurance, or at least the slightly more E end of PE (i.e. boxed out of your mind). Can be thought of as peak enduro stuff since it builds on the above base. (Like interval training/sprints)
AnCap - base strength (where we're thinking about sequences normally encountered on routes, i.e. not super short), also the cross over range between strength and the P end of PE (i.e. power down)
AnPow - peak strength stuff (again for slightly longer sequences)
None of this covers short strength, which is why you need to throw some hangs and shorter boulders in there somewhere too I think.
Here's my understanding of it. No doubt it's wrong, but maybe Tom will be along shortly to explain properly.
ARC - base endurance (like long gentle runs for a run/bike/swim equivalent)
AeroCap - slightly harder base endurance (like tempo runs)
AeroPower - same as what we might normally call PE or anaerobic endurance, or at least the slightly more E end of PE (i.e. boxed out of your mind). Can be thought of as peak enduro stuff since it builds on the above base. (Like interval training/sprints)
AnCap - base strength (where we're thinking about sequences normally encountered on routes, i.e. not super short), also the cross over range between strength and the P end of PE (i.e. power down)
AnPow - peak strength stuff (again for slightly longer sequences)
None of this covers short strength, which is why you need to throw some hangs and shorter boulders in there somewhere too I think.
In reply to abarro81:
AnCap should be somewhat equiv. to hypertrophy weights work if I've understood correctly.
Also, peak strength phase involves lots of explosive bouldering to sort out recruitment, contact strength, power before your trip/comp/whatever
AnCap should be somewhat equiv. to hypertrophy weights work if I've understood correctly.
Also, peak strength phase involves lots of explosive bouldering to sort out recruitment, contact strength, power before your trip/comp/whatever
In reply to abarro81:
Thanks for the above description. Have also looked at Dave Binney's and Tom Randall's stuff on UKb plus various Gresham articles etc... Have been fairly confused about a few of those terms/muscle systems for a while. Have also been trying to follow a periodised plan, with a view to peaking for a xmas trip, based on much of their ideas but have struggled to actually train all the systems they describe (there are only so many days in the week!!).
The following is what I have attempted for each of the systems:
ARC: I stay on a 30deg board for 40 mins, trying to continuously move and shift any pump.
Aerocap: Not sure....!!!
AerobicPower: 4x4s on a route at or just above my onsight level (really hard session. I alternate this session with a session of repeating a 50 move circuit on a 45board 5 times.
Anaerobic Capacity: 4x4s on a hard 12 move circuit on a 45 board.
Anaerobic Power: Boulder sessions.
Plus I try to do a bit of campusing and fingerboarding...
Pretty interested in what you or anyone else who trains, actually does. Especially would like to know about aerocap as I am not sure I actually have a session for this.
As I think Shark mentioned either here or on the other channel, I understand in general terms the idea of the muscle systems but am personally pretty unsure as to where we are meant to throw in finger strength training! After all for climbing it is this aspect that takes the longest to gain and is probably the biggest limiting factor. So where in amongst the above sessions of beasting is one meant to slip in a cheeky fingerboard session!?
Hope the above rambling post makes sense!
Dave
> (In reply to long)
> Here's my understanding of it. No doubt it's wrong, but maybe Tom will be along shortly to explain properly.
>
> ARC - base endurance (like long gentle runs for a run/bike/swim equivalent)
> AeroCap - slightly harder base endurance (like tempo runs)
> AeroPower - same as what we might normally call PE or anaerobic endurance, or at least the slightly more E end of PE (i.e. boxed out of your mind). Can be thought of as peak enduro stuff since it builds on the above base. (Like interval training/sprints)
>
> AnCap - base strength (where we're thinking about sequences normally encountered on routes, i.e. not super short), also the cross over range between strength and the P end of PE (i.e. power down)
> AnPow - peak strength stuff (again for slightly longer sequences)
>
> None of this covers short strength, which is why you need to throw some hangs and shorter boulders in there somewhere too I think.
> Here's my understanding of it. No doubt it's wrong, but maybe Tom will be along shortly to explain properly.
>
> ARC - base endurance (like long gentle runs for a run/bike/swim equivalent)
> AeroCap - slightly harder base endurance (like tempo runs)
> AeroPower - same as what we might normally call PE or anaerobic endurance, or at least the slightly more E end of PE (i.e. boxed out of your mind). Can be thought of as peak enduro stuff since it builds on the above base. (Like interval training/sprints)
>
> AnCap - base strength (where we're thinking about sequences normally encountered on routes, i.e. not super short), also the cross over range between strength and the P end of PE (i.e. power down)
> AnPow - peak strength stuff (again for slightly longer sequences)
>
> None of this covers short strength, which is why you need to throw some hangs and shorter boulders in there somewhere too I think.
Thanks for the above description. Have also looked at Dave Binney's and Tom Randall's stuff on UKb plus various Gresham articles etc... Have been fairly confused about a few of those terms/muscle systems for a while. Have also been trying to follow a periodised plan, with a view to peaking for a xmas trip, based on much of their ideas but have struggled to actually train all the systems they describe (there are only so many days in the week!!).
The following is what I have attempted for each of the systems:
ARC: I stay on a 30deg board for 40 mins, trying to continuously move and shift any pump.
Aerocap: Not sure....!!!
AerobicPower: 4x4s on a route at or just above my onsight level (really hard session. I alternate this session with a session of repeating a 50 move circuit on a 45board 5 times.
Anaerobic Capacity: 4x4s on a hard 12 move circuit on a 45 board.
Anaerobic Power: Boulder sessions.
Plus I try to do a bit of campusing and fingerboarding...
Pretty interested in what you or anyone else who trains, actually does. Especially would like to know about aerocap as I am not sure I actually have a session for this.
As I think Shark mentioned either here or on the other channel, I understand in general terms the idea of the muscle systems but am personally pretty unsure as to where we are meant to throw in finger strength training! After all for climbing it is this aspect that takes the longest to gain and is probably the biggest limiting factor. So where in amongst the above sessions of beasting is one meant to slip in a cheeky fingerboard session!?
Hope the above rambling post makes sense!
Dave
In reply to davo:
I remember reading an old article by Gresham that outlined just the main three: ARC, PE, and strength / power. In this particular article he suggested that focusing on just the two poles, ARC and strength / power, for much of the time, might be the way to go as these are the areas that take the most time and effort to shift, and for some climbers at least, partly given the imprecision of the categories, focusing on these two might create some kind of PE effect as well.
Shark - your programme is a lot more complex, but am I right in thinking that at its core is the focus Gresham was suggesting?
I remember reading an old article by Gresham that outlined just the main three: ARC, PE, and strength / power. In this particular article he suggested that focusing on just the two poles, ARC and strength / power, for much of the time, might be the way to go as these are the areas that take the most time and effort to shift, and for some climbers at least, partly given the imprecision of the categories, focusing on these two might create some kind of PE effect as well.
Shark - your programme is a lot more complex, but am I right in thinking that at its core is the focus Gresham was suggesting?
In reply to davo:
That session sounds like aerocap to me, unless you have the endurance of a 9a climber. ARC = no pump or very light pump, you know you're doing something but it's just a bit of extra blood flow. AeroCap = pumped but in control. If you can stay on a 30degree board for 40minutes and it fits into ARCing then you should really be onsighting 8b!#
If you mean standard 4x4 structure, that doesn't sound like AnCap, that sounds like PE. AnCap would be doing the hard 10-15 move problem, then resting twice (or I sometimes find best to rest more) the climb time (usually means you rest between 1-2mins depending on how fast you climb). You should be powered down rather than pumped.
Think that just fits into basic strength, though I guess long boulders should fit well to AnPow? AnPow should be super-intense power down I think? Not so sure about this one though.
I believe Tom throws in 2 hangs sessions per week, wherever fits best in his structure. I'm doing some as part of bouldering/AnCap sessions - I don't think you need a whole session to be AnCap, you can e.g. boulder/hang for an hour and a half then do 30min AnCap.
> (In reply to abarro81)
> [...]
>
>
> ARC: I stay on a 30deg board for 40 mins, trying to continuously move and shift any pump.
> Aerocap: Not sure....!!!
> [...]
>
>
> ARC: I stay on a 30deg board for 40 mins, trying to continuously move and shift any pump.
> Aerocap: Not sure....!!!
That session sounds like aerocap to me, unless you have the endurance of a 9a climber. ARC = no pump or very light pump, you know you're doing something but it's just a bit of extra blood flow. AeroCap = pumped but in control. If you can stay on a 30degree board for 40minutes and it fits into ARCing then you should really be onsighting 8b!#
> Anaerobic Capacity: 4x4s on a hard 12 move circuit on a 45 board.
If you mean standard 4x4 structure, that doesn't sound like AnCap, that sounds like PE. AnCap would be doing the hard 10-15 move problem, then resting twice (or I sometimes find best to rest more) the climb time (usually means you rest between 1-2mins depending on how fast you climb). You should be powered down rather than pumped.
> Anaerobic Power: Boulder sessions.
Think that just fits into basic strength, though I guess long boulders should fit well to AnPow? AnPow should be super-intense power down I think? Not so sure about this one though.
> So where in amongst the above sessions of beasting is one meant to slip in a cheeky fingerboard session!?
I believe Tom throws in 2 hangs sessions per week, wherever fits best in his structure. I'm doing some as part of bouldering/AnCap sessions - I don't think you need a whole session to be AnCap, you can e.g. boulder/hang for an hour and a half then do 30min AnCap.
In reply to John Gillott:
I used to think that was a good way to go - i.e train the two ends of the spectrum and tie them together for a peak but its not the way the structure advocated by Binney/Randall works. Whilst being stronger and having good capillarity might indirectly help with PE a bit it is nowhere near as good as actually training it.
Binney/Randall advocate that the programme needs to build a good base/volume of AeroCap and AnCap which then tapers but that work supports/prepares the more intense stuff towards the end of the progamme (which is probably more neuro based??)where the adaptions are quicker.
> (In reply to davo)
>
> I remember reading an old article by Gresham that outlined just the main three: ARC, PE, and strength / power. In this particular article he suggested that focusing on just the two poles, ARC and strength / power, for much of the time, might be the way to go as these are the areas that take the most time and effort to shift, and for some climbers at least, partly given the imprecision of the categories, focusing on these two might create some kind of PE effect as well.
>
> Shark - your programme is a lot more complex, but am I right in thinking that at its core is the focus Gresham was suggesting?
>
> I remember reading an old article by Gresham that outlined just the main three: ARC, PE, and strength / power. In this particular article he suggested that focusing on just the two poles, ARC and strength / power, for much of the time, might be the way to go as these are the areas that take the most time and effort to shift, and for some climbers at least, partly given the imprecision of the categories, focusing on these two might create some kind of PE effect as well.
>
> Shark - your programme is a lot more complex, but am I right in thinking that at its core is the focus Gresham was suggesting?
I used to think that was a good way to go - i.e train the two ends of the spectrum and tie them together for a peak but its not the way the structure advocated by Binney/Randall works. Whilst being stronger and having good capillarity might indirectly help with PE a bit it is nowhere near as good as actually training it.
Binney/Randall advocate that the programme needs to build a good base/volume of AeroCap and AnCap which then tapers but that work supports/prepares the more intense stuff towards the end of the progamme (which is probably more neuro based??)where the adaptions are quicker.
In reply to abarro81:
Cheers for that!
Yeah had wondered about whether I was actually ARCing or whether it was aerocap? Am generally having to shift a lot of pump during those 40 mins and it certainly doesn't feel like I am just moving blood around. Unfortunately I am not a 9a climber so back to the drawing board for that session.
Hmm... so 4x4s on a short fairly intense circuit are just power endurance. That is kind of what I thought but to be honest I kind of thought that was anaerobic capacity?? So if I made that 12 move problem quite a bit harder (ie much closer to my max) and then did it and rested for 2 mins the repeated. How many times would you aim to repeat said problem?
Anaerobic power I guess would be shorter problems (5-8 moves?) repeated?
Yeah I kind of try to fit in about 2 fingerboard sessions a week at moment but it is tricky. I also kind of do what you suggest and combine a short campus session at start with a circuits session later on is session.
Out of interest what do you do on a regular basis?
Cheers Dave
Cheers for that!
Yeah had wondered about whether I was actually ARCing or whether it was aerocap? Am generally having to shift a lot of pump during those 40 mins and it certainly doesn't feel like I am just moving blood around. Unfortunately I am not a 9a climber so back to the drawing board for that session.
Hmm... so 4x4s on a short fairly intense circuit are just power endurance. That is kind of what I thought but to be honest I kind of thought that was anaerobic capacity?? So if I made that 12 move problem quite a bit harder (ie much closer to my max) and then did it and rested for 2 mins the repeated. How many times would you aim to repeat said problem?
Anaerobic power I guess would be shorter problems (5-8 moves?) repeated?
Yeah I kind of try to fit in about 2 fingerboard sessions a week at moment but it is tricky. I also kind of do what you suggest and combine a short campus session at start with a circuits session later on is session.
Out of interest what do you do on a regular basis?
Cheers Dave
> Binney/Randall advocate that the programme needs to build a good base/volume of AeroCap and AnCap which then tapers but that work supports/prepares the more intense stuff towards the end of the progamme (which is probably more neuro based??)where the adaptions are quicker.
That is pretty much what I have tried to do over the last two months in preparation for a 3 week trip to Spain over Xmas/New Year. Your thoughts about the intense stuff being more neuro based is exactly what I have been thinking.
In general terms I did a massive amount of volume/base endurance/aerocap through September and into October. I have slowly lowered the volume and increased the anaerobic capacity/power endurance stuff. With 6 weeks to go I am now increasing the power/strength component, just doing endurance maintenance and trying to move the power endurance from longer power endurance down to shorter power endurance. In the last couple of weeks I was going to lower the volume massively and increase the intensity/campusing/fingerboarding/bouldering, with just a couple of maintenance sessions of the other things.
My main issue is that any strength gains will just be neurological recruitment rather than actual strength gains and rely on how strong I fundamentally am rather than giving me an increase in power/strength...
Dave
In reply to shark:
OK, apologies if this is a stupid question, but why not train power/strength endurance after strength? Is this just because you'll be too tired from the strength training to do it effectively?
I put up the original post because just now I finish doing strength stuff then basically go and destroy myself doing long traverses then go home when I literaly can't climb any more. I don't feel I'm improving very quickly considering the amount of effort I put in!
I can imagine people slapping their heads at my naivety when they read this but I'd really appreciate some guidance.
OK, apologies if this is a stupid question, but why not train power/strength endurance after strength? Is this just because you'll be too tired from the strength training to do it effectively?
I put up the original post because just now I finish doing strength stuff then basically go and destroy myself doing long traverses then go home when I literaly can't climb any more. I don't feel I'm improving very quickly considering the amount of effort I put in!
I can imagine people slapping their heads at my naivety when they read this but I'd really appreciate some guidance.
In reply to Brendan:
I can't put it any better than Arran Deakin: "You should only train the minimum amount necessary to induce adaptations, anymore than that is only going to increase the time needed for recovery and compromise your next training session.....with training there is an optimal amount of work that can be done in an individual session beyond which there will be no additional stimulus for improvement, only the need for a longer recovery period and a greater chance of injury. "
http://www.theclimbingdepot.com/blogs/training/blog-1-the-principles-of-tra...
It sounds like you are trying to get your money's worth at the wall rather than working out the optimal effects you are seeking from your training and why. Its a big and complicated subject and no one has all the answers but we can grope in generally the right direction.
I can't put it any better than Arran Deakin: "You should only train the minimum amount necessary to induce adaptations, anymore than that is only going to increase the time needed for recovery and compromise your next training session.....with training there is an optimal amount of work that can be done in an individual session beyond which there will be no additional stimulus for improvement, only the need for a longer recovery period and a greater chance of injury. "
http://www.theclimbingdepot.com/blogs/training/blog-1-the-principles-of-tra...
It sounds like you are trying to get your money's worth at the wall rather than working out the optimal effects you are seeking from your training and why. Its a big and complicated subject and no one has all the answers but we can grope in generally the right direction.
In reply to davo:
Sounds like you've got it nailed and I can't believe that work won't have given you "actual" strength gains.
Sounds like you've got it nailed and I can't believe that work won't have given you "actual" strength gains.
In reply to davo:
Yeah, that sounds like a good aerocap session to me. For ARC I just trav around on a vert/slightly overhanging wall.
Yeah, Tom said it should be hard enough that you couldn't flash it. Think it;s ~10 reps (=30min ish workout), but you can fail on a few of the later ones and that's not an issue I believe. Randall is the man with all the proper knowledge, I just get my info from him and tweak it a bit to what I feel works well for me.
I believe it's 5-8 moves at high intensity, rest time less than or equal to climb time, repeat 4 times. Then rest 10-20 mins before doing another set. Would have to check what I've written down to be sure I've remembered that right but all my info is on my home computer and I'm in uni until this eve... I figured it would fit well with some campus exercises since it's easy to make it intense, and if we're just doing it when close to a peak it's good to be doing explosive stuff anyway.
I just had a year off and went on a big trip, in theory now I'm back and doing a PhD I have a structure to follow, but until I hurt my knee last weekend I've been climbing outside far too much to follow anything very well! Too much free time Anyway, my base was supposed to involve 2xhangs, 2xancap, 1xpe per week with bouldering/routes outside on weekend (plus ARC/aerocap), and some bouldering as part of hang/ancap sessions. Peak phase will be more focused on PE, explosive bouldering, campusing.
> (In reply to abarro81)
> Cheers for that!
>
> Yeah had wondered about whether I was actually ARCing or whether it was aerocap? Am generally having to shift a lot of pump during those 40 mins and it certainly doesn't feel like I am just moving blood around.
> Cheers for that!
>
> Yeah had wondered about whether I was actually ARCing or whether it was aerocap? Am generally having to shift a lot of pump during those 40 mins and it certainly doesn't feel like I am just moving blood around.
Yeah, that sounds like a good aerocap session to me. For ARC I just trav around on a vert/slightly overhanging wall.
> So if I made that 12 move problem quite a bit harder (ie much closer to my max) and then did it and rested for 2 mins the repeated. How many times would you aim to repeat said problem?
Yeah, Tom said it should be hard enough that you couldn't flash it. Think it;s ~10 reps (=30min ish workout), but you can fail on a few of the later ones and that's not an issue I believe. Randall is the man with all the proper knowledge, I just get my info from him and tweak it a bit to what I feel works well for me.
> Anaerobic power I guess would be shorter problems (5-8 moves?) repeated?
I believe it's 5-8 moves at high intensity, rest time less than or equal to climb time, repeat 4 times. Then rest 10-20 mins before doing another set. Would have to check what I've written down to be sure I've remembered that right but all my info is on my home computer and I'm in uni until this eve... I figured it would fit well with some campus exercises since it's easy to make it intense, and if we're just doing it when close to a peak it's good to be doing explosive stuff anyway.
> Out of interest what do you do on a regular basis?
I just had a year off and went on a big trip, in theory now I'm back and doing a PhD I have a structure to follow, but until I hurt my knee last weekend I've been climbing outside far too much to follow anything very well! Too much free time Anyway, my base was supposed to involve 2xhangs, 2xancap, 1xpe per week with bouldering/routes outside on weekend (plus ARC/aerocap), and some bouldering as part of hang/ancap sessions. Peak phase will be more focused on PE, explosive bouldering, campusing.
In reply to shark:
I disagree with your assessment that the Binney/Randall approach is fundamentally different to the Gresham approach.
My view of the Binney/Randall approach is that you do focus on the 2 ends of the spectrum in your base (since these have the longest adaptation times):
The 'bottom' end being base endurance - ARC and aerocap
The 'top' end being base strength (static focus) - hangs, ancap, boulder
(N.B. I do PE maintainence too)
As you move to peak phase the PE/aeropower/whatever-we-want-to-call-it ramps up (top end endurance), and the explosive bouldering replaces the static hangs and ancap (for peak power, recruitment, contact strength etc)...
I disagree with your assessment that the Binney/Randall approach is fundamentally different to the Gresham approach.
My view of the Binney/Randall approach is that you do focus on the 2 ends of the spectrum in your base (since these have the longest adaptation times):
The 'bottom' end being base endurance - ARC and aerocap
The 'top' end being base strength (static focus) - hangs, ancap, boulder
(N.B. I do PE maintainence too)
As you move to peak phase the PE/aeropower/whatever-we-want-to-call-it ramps up (top end endurance), and the explosive bouldering replaces the static hangs and ancap (for peak power, recruitment, contact strength etc)...
In reply to shark:
That's a great quote, cheers.
"Its a big and complicated subject and no one has all the answers but we can grope in generally the right direction."
Amen. The more I read the more confused I get!
> (In reply to Brendan)
>
>
That's a great quote, cheers.
"Its a big and complicated subject and no one has all the answers but we can grope in generally the right direction."
Amen. The more I read the more confused I get!
In reply to abarro81:
AnCap is a world apart from ARC - top end of the bottom end of a spectrum WTF? so if we are talking of spectrums its in the middle (green) though I would prefer to think in chunks. It may be that John is misquoting/over simplifying what Gresh said but if you want to pick an argument cos your injured and bored then I concede defeat as you're a scientist who climbs much harder than me.
> (In reply to shark)
>
> I disagree with your assessment that the Binney/Randall approach is fundamentally different to the Gresham approach.
>
> My view of the Binney/Randall approach is that you do focus on the 2 ends of the spectrum in your base (since these have the longest adaptation times):
> The 'bottom' end being base endurance - ARC and aerocap
> The 'top' end being base strength (static focus) - hangs, ancap, boulder
> (N.B. I do PE maintainence too)
>
>
> I disagree with your assessment that the Binney/Randall approach is fundamentally different to the Gresham approach.
>
> My view of the Binney/Randall approach is that you do focus on the 2 ends of the spectrum in your base (since these have the longest adaptation times):
> The 'bottom' end being base endurance - ARC and aerocap
> The 'top' end being base strength (static focus) - hangs, ancap, boulder
> (N.B. I do PE maintainence too)
>
AnCap is a world apart from ARC - top end of the bottom end of a spectrum WTF? so if we are talking of spectrums its in the middle (green) though I would prefer to think in chunks. It may be that John is misquoting/over simplifying what Gresh said but if you want to pick an argument cos your injured and bored then I concede defeat as you're a scientist who climbs much harder than me.
In reply to shark:
I'll see if I can find the article in my pile of old mags.
I was reminded of it partly though because I got the impression that you were going back to something a bit simpler for your winter training plan after your year of following the Randall programme. Did I get that wrong? Perhaps in reality it's just that you're not doing much PE and are concentrating on other things, which you break down into more than two categories.....?
I'll see if I can find the article in my pile of old mags.
I was reminded of it partly though because I got the impression that you were going back to something a bit simpler for your winter training plan after your year of following the Randall programme. Did I get that wrong? Perhaps in reality it's just that you're not doing much PE and are concentrating on other things, which you break down into more than two categories.....?
In reply to John Gillott:
I'm still agonising over it. I think my main issue was that most the sessions I followed werent convenient or enjoyable. Rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater I am devising alternative replacement sessions that are more convenient and specific for the routes I want to do in the spring.
Depending what the physio says about my golfers elbow this afternoon may mean I have a couple more weeks to tinker with the spreadsheet !
I'm still agonising over it. I think my main issue was that most the sessions I followed werent convenient or enjoyable. Rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater I am devising alternative replacement sessions that are more convenient and specific for the routes I want to do in the spring.
Depending what the physio says about my golfers elbow this afternoon may mean I have a couple more weeks to tinker with the spreadsheet !
In reply to abarro81:
Brilliant! Cheers for that, I appreciate the info. Really helpful to actually chat to someone who puts the stuff into practice.
Think I may tweak my an cap session towards harder problems. Think I also need to stick in an ARC session somewhere but overall I can recover pretty well so might not do too much of that.
Know what you mean about climbing outdoors interfering. The only way I have managed to deal with that is to call some of my outdoor sessions a specific thing. E.g. in September I was outside a lot so called any redpointing a Power Endurance session and if I was just working the moves I decided that was my boulder session! Not exactly scientific but about the best I could manage. Right now I don't have a lot of time to get out so can just stick with the plan.
I agree with what you said about the necessity to keep fingerboarding (hangs) as this is the base static strength that takes ages to develop.
Dave
Brilliant! Cheers for that, I appreciate the info. Really helpful to actually chat to someone who puts the stuff into practice.
Think I may tweak my an cap session towards harder problems. Think I also need to stick in an ARC session somewhere but overall I can recover pretty well so might not do too much of that.
Know what you mean about climbing outdoors interfering. The only way I have managed to deal with that is to call some of my outdoor sessions a specific thing. E.g. in September I was outside a lot so called any redpointing a Power Endurance session and if I was just working the moves I decided that was my boulder session! Not exactly scientific but about the best I could manage. Right now I don't have a lot of time to get out so can just stick with the plan.
I agree with what you said about the necessity to keep fingerboarding (hangs) as this is the base static strength that takes ages to develop.
Dave
In reply to shark:
I only wish that I did have it "nailed"! Really hard a lot of the time to actually know if what you are training is actually making a difference. Inside at the wall, the answer is yes but outdoors sometimes it is not so clear cut.
As to strength gains, hmm... about 2 weeks ago I would have said absolutely no! But since I have just moved into prioritising short power endurance and introducing campusing, bouldering and fingerboarding, I actually feel about as strong as I ever have (in other words, still as weak as before!). Hopefully with a few more weeks as the focus switches to power/recruitment etc... I should see a peak. Well that is the theory anyway!!
Okay got to do some work, thanks for chat
Dave
> (In reply to davo)
>
> Sounds like you've got it nailed and I can't believe that work won't have given you "actual" strength gains.
>
> Sounds like you've got it nailed and I can't believe that work won't have given you "actual" strength gains.
I only wish that I did have it "nailed"! Really hard a lot of the time to actually know if what you are training is actually making a difference. Inside at the wall, the answer is yes but outdoors sometimes it is not so clear cut.
As to strength gains, hmm... about 2 weeks ago I would have said absolutely no! But since I have just moved into prioritising short power endurance and introducing campusing, bouldering and fingerboarding, I actually feel about as strong as I ever have (in other words, still as weak as before!). Hopefully with a few more weeks as the focus switches to power/recruitment etc... I should see a peak. Well that is the theory anyway!!
Okay got to do some work, thanks for chat
Dave
In reply to davo: Thank you for the answers Barrow and Shark. I have just skimmed the following discussion but will definetely read it in more detail.
In reply to Brendan:
Best thread on this I've read for ages.
Thanks to those who've broken down the theories into their application.
In my mind the logical way to periodise would be this (these are the main focus - I would see the opposite end of the spectrum being maintained throughout):
ARCing - to build base endurance and tolerate high volumes of work
Strength: hypertrophy - for 2+ months to build functional muscle fibres in forearms etc. I see this as increasing your strength potential.
Strength: recruitment - for a month or so to recruit your new fibres so that your actual strength approaches your potential
Aerocap - for a few weeks. Builds up your volume again and starts to teach you to apply strength for more moves in a row without starting to feel pumped.
Ancap - for a few weeks (isn't this the one where if you do it for too long your lactic acid starts to break down your muscle?) I see this as the one that allows you to keep going longer when you already are pumped.
Aeropower/Anaeropower - for a few weeks. I see this as the one that gives you the fitness to do cruxes that are near your strength limit for several moves in a row.
Then you're peaking and just maintain each element.
Best thread on this I've read for ages.
Thanks to those who've broken down the theories into their application.
In my mind the logical way to periodise would be this (these are the main focus - I would see the opposite end of the spectrum being maintained throughout):
ARCing - to build base endurance and tolerate high volumes of work
Strength: hypertrophy - for 2+ months to build functional muscle fibres in forearms etc. I see this as increasing your strength potential.
Strength: recruitment - for a month or so to recruit your new fibres so that your actual strength approaches your potential
Aerocap - for a few weeks. Builds up your volume again and starts to teach you to apply strength for more moves in a row without starting to feel pumped.
Ancap - for a few weeks (isn't this the one where if you do it for too long your lactic acid starts to break down your muscle?) I see this as the one that allows you to keep going longer when you already are pumped.
Aeropower/Anaeropower - for a few weeks. I see this as the one that gives you the fitness to do cruxes that are near your strength limit for several moves in a row.
Then you're peaking and just maintain each element.
In reply to RockSteady:
I don't like what you put there. Sorry.
The way I see it, periodisation breaks down into 2 neat phases. You can break them up if required, but basically:
Base: focus on ARC/AeroCap and AnCap/hangs/bouldering(particularly static work)
Peak: focus on PE/AeroPower, AnPower, explosive bouldering, power.
How much you focus on each thing will depend on your strengths/weaknesses and goals.
I don't like what you put there. Sorry.
The way I see it, periodisation breaks down into 2 neat phases. You can break them up if required, but basically:
Base: focus on ARC/AeroCap and AnCap/hangs/bouldering(particularly static work)
Peak: focus on PE/AeroPower, AnPower, explosive bouldering, power.
How much you focus on each thing will depend on your strengths/weaknesses and goals.
In reply to RockSteady:
Why is this here rather than at peak?
With an ~8 week adaptation time, this needs to be done for longer
You're confusing it with PE/aeropow. This has longest adaptation time so needs to be done for a long time.
Personally, I think you can work ARC/aerocap and strength/ancap at the same time, no need to split them up. This may not apply at the top end with Ramon, Schubert etc, but sub grade-9 I don't think it needs to go so complex. (and in my experience, unless you're super deadicated you wont stick to it if its that complex)
If in doubt get a session off Randall when he's back to talk about all this stuff.
> Strength: recruitment - for a month or so to recruit your new fibres so that your actual strength approaches your potential
Why is this here rather than at peak?
> Aerocap - for a few weeks. Builds up your volume again and starts to teach you to apply strength for more moves in a row without starting to feel pumped.
With an ~8 week adaptation time, this needs to be done for longer
> Ancap - for a few weeks (isn't this the one where if you do it for too long your lactic acid starts to break down your muscle?) I see this as the one that allows you to keep going longer when you already are pumped.
You're confusing it with PE/aeropow. This has longest adaptation time so needs to be done for a long time.
Personally, I think you can work ARC/aerocap and strength/ancap at the same time, no need to split them up. This may not apply at the top end with Ramon, Schubert etc, but sub grade-9 I don't think it needs to go so complex. (and in my experience, unless you're super deadicated you wont stick to it if its that complex)
If in doubt get a session off Randall when he's back to talk about all this stuff.
In reply to abarro81:
To clarify, I mean AnCap has long adaptation time, PE is one of the shorter ones.
> You're confusing it with PE/aeropow. This has longest adaptation time so needs to be done for a long time.
To clarify, I mean AnCap has long adaptation time, PE is one of the shorter ones.
In reply to abarro81:
Thanks for the response. Very interesting. I can accept that what I think is probably totally wrong - it seems that physical adaption doesn't proceed according to the way I think it should logically!
Yeah, I'm saving up to get some advice off Tom when he returns from crushing the US into submission.
Thanks for the response. Very interesting. I can accept that what I think is probably totally wrong - it seems that physical adaption doesn't proceed according to the way I think it should logically!
Yeah, I'm saving up to get some advice off Tom when he returns from crushing the US into submission.
In reply to abarro81:
So, for example, how would someone who has spent the last year just doing short routes and boulder problems structure their training for a week in Kalymnos in the first week of May?
So, for example, how would someone who has spent the last year just doing short routes and boulder problems structure their training for a week in Kalymnos in the first week of May?
In reply to Brendan:
I don't mid talking training, but I'm not going to make a training plan for you...
If you want proper advice I'd recomment contacting Randall, otherwise just take some principles, make it up and learn as you go along..
I don't mid talking training, but I'm not going to make a training plan for you...
If you want proper advice I'd recomment contacting Randall, otherwise just take some principles, make it up and learn as you go along..
In reply to abarro81: Randall?
In reply to RockSteady:
I agree with abarro on this.What he has written corresponds exactly with what I have read from the likes of Binney and Randall.
What they have written corresponds pretty accurately to a few articles I have read from other sports and a fairly long conversation with a swimming coach (currently coaching). Think they have had to make a few adaptations to the basic theory to get it to match climbing.
To me the only issue I have (I am not an expert just someone who trains and wants to get the best results out of my limited resources of time and energy) is that there is an awful lot of prioritisation of volume but little of finger strength training. This is okay if you have beast strength already but worries me if like me you have fingers of jelly! Still to be fair after following a periodised plan for about 2 months now I do feel like I am climbing better than ever, so maybe it isn't anything to worry about.
Sometimes I think a lot of this stuff comes down to actually trying it and seeing how it works for you. The problem is that to find out if it works, you have to give it quite a few months!
Cheers Dave
I agree with abarro on this.What he has written corresponds exactly with what I have read from the likes of Binney and Randall.
What they have written corresponds pretty accurately to a few articles I have read from other sports and a fairly long conversation with a swimming coach (currently coaching). Think they have had to make a few adaptations to the basic theory to get it to match climbing.
To me the only issue I have (I am not an expert just someone who trains and wants to get the best results out of my limited resources of time and energy) is that there is an awful lot of prioritisation of volume but little of finger strength training. This is okay if you have beast strength already but worries me if like me you have fingers of jelly! Still to be fair after following a periodised plan for about 2 months now I do feel like I am climbing better than ever, so maybe it isn't anything to worry about.
Sometimes I think a lot of this stuff comes down to actually trying it and seeing how it works for you. The problem is that to find out if it works, you have to give it quite a few months!
Cheers Dave
In reply to Brendan:
Lol!
Think you would need to have a read around, some of the stuff earlier up and if that doesn't help then potentially check out the diet, training and injuries section on UKb. There are a brilliant series of articles there that should help you design your own training program.
Dave
> (In reply to abarro81)
> So, for example, how would someone who has spent the last year just doing short routes and boulder problems structure their training for a week in Kalymnos in the first week of May?
> So, for example, how would someone who has spent the last year just doing short routes and boulder problems structure their training for a week in Kalymnos in the first week of May?
Lol!
Think you would need to have a read around, some of the stuff earlier up and if that doesn't help then potentially check out the diet, training and injuries section on UKb. There are a brilliant series of articles there that should help you design your own training program.
Dave
In reply to Brendan:
Tom Randall, one of the guys currently doing bad things to American cracks. He's who I've had more useful info/advice from than anyone else with regards to training.
Tom Randall, one of the guys currently doing bad things to American cracks. He's who I've had more useful info/advice from than anyone else with regards to training.
In reply to davo:
I have the same thoughts/concerns too, but similarly figure I actually need to just try it for a bit and see what happens...
> (In reply to RockSteady)
> To me the only issue I have (I am not an expert just someone who trains and wants to get the best results out of my limited resources of time and energy) is that there is an awful lot of prioritisation of volume but little of finger strength training. This is okay if you have beast strength already but worries me if like me you have fingers of jelly!
I have the same thoughts/concerns too, but similarly figure I actually need to just try it for a bit and see what happens...
In reply to davo: Haha, yeah, I guess that was a bit cheeky.
I've actually read a fair few training books - 9 out of 10 climbers, Self-Coached Climber, a couple by Eric Horst, plus the stuff on Neil Gresham's website and lots of other stuff on the web - but the more I read the more confused I seem to get! There just seems to be so much contradiction. Hence coming on here for advice.
I think part of the problem is not having a lot of confidence in my own plans, so then I don't stick with them for long enough to make a difference. That's why I mentioned earlier that I was keen to avoid periodization, it just seems like such a big commitment if you're not sure it's going to work. I guess I've just got to stick with it.
Anyway, thanks for the comments and I will check out the stuff on UkB.
And if I ever bump into Tom Randall I'll ask him too!
I've actually read a fair few training books - 9 out of 10 climbers, Self-Coached Climber, a couple by Eric Horst, plus the stuff on Neil Gresham's website and lots of other stuff on the web - but the more I read the more confused I seem to get! There just seems to be so much contradiction. Hence coming on here for advice.
I think part of the problem is not having a lot of confidence in my own plans, so then I don't stick with them for long enough to make a difference. That's why I mentioned earlier that I was keen to avoid periodization, it just seems like such a big commitment if you're not sure it's going to work. I guess I've just got to stick with it.
Anyway, thanks for the comments and I will check out the stuff on UkB.
And if I ever bump into Tom Randall I'll ask him too!
In reply to abarro81:
Alex, what's the reason for the static focus you mention on the strength work (you said the base stuff is aerocap/arc for the low end and hangs and bouldering (focus on static) and ancap for the top end)? I always tend to associate bouldering with fairly dynamic stuff but it looks like you're saving the power work for the peak phase. Do you actively focus on trying to do boulders statically rather than throwing for things in these sort of sessions?
Really useful thread on this stuff, given me some useful ideas to apply...
Andy
Alex, what's the reason for the static focus you mention on the strength work (you said the base stuff is aerocap/arc for the low end and hangs and bouldering (focus on static) and ancap for the top end)? I always tend to associate bouldering with fairly dynamic stuff but it looks like you're saving the power work for the peak phase. Do you actively focus on trying to do boulders statically rather than throwing for things in these sort of sessions?
Really useful thread on this stuff, given me some useful ideas to apply...
Andy
In reply to AJM:
I think the logic is that you build strength doing the more static stuff then do power on top of that since the strength adaptations are slow but once you have the strength turning it into power is fast. I don't force myself to go static, but i do mainly climb on the wave which lends itself to static stuff, and non-climbing exercises are hangs. When it gets closer to the trip I'll start climbing more on the board, deliberately picking explosive moves and campusing instead of hangs.. I've never really tried a lot of this before so I'll be interested to see how it goes!
I think the logic is that you build strength doing the more static stuff then do power on top of that since the strength adaptations are slow but once you have the strength turning it into power is fast. I don't force myself to go static, but i do mainly climb on the wave which lends itself to static stuff, and non-climbing exercises are hangs. When it gets closer to the trip I'll start climbing more on the board, deliberately picking explosive moves and campusing instead of hangs.. I've never really tried a lot of this before so I'll be interested to see how it goes!
In reply to Brendan:
It's been interesting reading through the thread at a time when I intend to plan some systematic training over the winter. But i'm still none the wiser on the important point of strength vs endurance.
My biggest weakness is upper arm and shoulder strength, fingers not too bad so long as I lose a bit of weight. Over four months or so would I be better:
1. spending 2 months concentrating on power, short moves on steep boards and weight training when I can't get to boards, followed by 2 months endurance (steep plead walls); or
2. spending a month or two working on endurance before progressing to power (board and weight) training?
Thanks
It's been interesting reading through the thread at a time when I intend to plan some systematic training over the winter. But i'm still none the wiser on the important point of strength vs endurance.
My biggest weakness is upper arm and shoulder strength, fingers not too bad so long as I lose a bit of weight. Over four months or so would I be better:
1. spending 2 months concentrating on power, short moves on steep boards and weight training when I can't get to boards, followed by 2 months endurance (steep plead walls); or
2. spending a month or two working on endurance before progressing to power (board and weight) training?
Thanks
In reply to kevin stephens:
I kind of think this is something you have to answer yourself unless you pay for a coach. If you read my replies earlier it is fairly obvious that I personally am doing endurance first and then the power stuff. However this is just my take on what I have read and I think it is the kind of stuff where you have to try it and then see if it works for you.
Good luck Dave
I kind of think this is something you have to answer yourself unless you pay for a coach. If you read my replies earlier it is fairly obvious that I personally am doing endurance first and then the power stuff. However this is just my take on what I have read and I think it is the kind of stuff where you have to try it and then see if it works for you.
Good luck Dave
In reply to Brendan:
I know what you mean about the info out there. It can certainly be pretty confusing and I have had the same problems as you trying to determine what would be a good plan. Certainly I don't have a huge amount of confidence in what I am doing but my opinion is that it is better to have a plan and stick with it rather than just go down the wall and do some climbing! Just going climbing may work for some people but for me just leads to an endless plateau!!
If it is any help, I thought 9/10 climbers was good for general strategies but not great for a specific training plan. Self-coached climber I thought was fairly good but haven't read it all and I think it is the one that talks about doing pyramids. This is good if you are early in your climbing career but not good if you have climbed for a long time and have a pretty good foundation. Eric Horst's website and articles I can personally take or leave and I haven't found much useful there. Neil Gresham's articles (the ones on UKb) about power endurance, endurance and interval training I have found to be pretty good for ideas of specific training sessions. On Ukb the Binney and Randall articles/pdfs are good but hardwork. It took me ages to get an idea of aerocap, aeropower, ancap etc... and to be honest judging by the chat with abarro earlier I am still not certain what exactly they are in climbing terms. I think part of the issue is that it is not always possible to make a straight forward adaptation from other sports and their training science to climbing as we are dealing with such tiny muscle groups (in the forearms).
The only real help I can offer is that in my opinion if you put a periodised training program together with a view to peaking for Kalymnos and you stick to it, then you are likely to do better than bouldering all winter and then realising 2 weeks before you go that the ability to do a one armer on that pitiful crimp is not likely to help you much on a 40 metre stamina route at Kalymnos!! No you may not have put together the most professionally periodised plan ever and yes if you had the cash it would probably be better to pay to chat to a coach but still I reckon you would be fitter than ever and maybe a little bit stronger.
Well at least all of the above is what I am hoping works when I go to Spain over xmas and new year!! If not it will be back to the drawing board.
Dave
> I've actually read a fair few training books - 9 out of 10 climbers, Self-Coached Climber, a couple by Eric Horst, plus the stuff on Neil Gresham's website and lots of other stuff on the web - but the more I read the more confused I seem to get! There just seems to be so much contradiction. Hence coming on here for advice.
>
> I think part of the problem is not having a lot of confidence in my own plans, so then I don't stick with them for long enough to make a difference. That's why I mentioned earlier that I was keen to avoid periodization, it just seems like such a big commitment if you're not sure it's going to work. I guess I've just got to stick with it.
>
>
> I think part of the problem is not having a lot of confidence in my own plans, so then I don't stick with them for long enough to make a difference. That's why I mentioned earlier that I was keen to avoid periodization, it just seems like such a big commitment if you're not sure it's going to work. I guess I've just got to stick with it.
>
I know what you mean about the info out there. It can certainly be pretty confusing and I have had the same problems as you trying to determine what would be a good plan. Certainly I don't have a huge amount of confidence in what I am doing but my opinion is that it is better to have a plan and stick with it rather than just go down the wall and do some climbing! Just going climbing may work for some people but for me just leads to an endless plateau!!
If it is any help, I thought 9/10 climbers was good for general strategies but not great for a specific training plan. Self-coached climber I thought was fairly good but haven't read it all and I think it is the one that talks about doing pyramids. This is good if you are early in your climbing career but not good if you have climbed for a long time and have a pretty good foundation. Eric Horst's website and articles I can personally take or leave and I haven't found much useful there. Neil Gresham's articles (the ones on UKb) about power endurance, endurance and interval training I have found to be pretty good for ideas of specific training sessions. On Ukb the Binney and Randall articles/pdfs are good but hardwork. It took me ages to get an idea of aerocap, aeropower, ancap etc... and to be honest judging by the chat with abarro earlier I am still not certain what exactly they are in climbing terms. I think part of the issue is that it is not always possible to make a straight forward adaptation from other sports and their training science to climbing as we are dealing with such tiny muscle groups (in the forearms).
The only real help I can offer is that in my opinion if you put a periodised training program together with a view to peaking for Kalymnos and you stick to it, then you are likely to do better than bouldering all winter and then realising 2 weeks before you go that the ability to do a one armer on that pitiful crimp is not likely to help you much on a 40 metre stamina route at Kalymnos!! No you may not have put together the most professionally periodised plan ever and yes if you had the cash it would probably be better to pay to chat to a coach but still I reckon you would be fitter than ever and maybe a little bit stronger.
Well at least all of the above is what I am hoping works when I go to Spain over xmas and new year!! If not it will be back to the drawing board.
Dave
In reply to davo: Sage advice, cheers. I haven't read the stuff on UkB so I'll check it out as soon as I have time.
Once I've made a plan I'll post it on here for people to comment on/criticise/mock - should be interesting.
Once I've made a plan I'll post it on here for people to comment on/criticise/mock - should be interesting.
In reply to Brendan: One other thing...
Neil Gresham's website has an article called The Training Year. I found it really interesting because it includes quite a few things I hadn't found mentioned elsewhere, such as beginning the training cycle at a lower intensity than you finished the previous year at in order to over-reach.
Anyway, he has written out some sample training plans for each month but as far as I understand, they're not periodized at all. Any ideas as to why that is?
http://www.climbingmasterclass.com/training/trainingyear.asp
Neil Gresham's website has an article called The Training Year. I found it really interesting because it includes quite a few things I hadn't found mentioned elsewhere, such as beginning the training cycle at a lower intensity than you finished the previous year at in order to over-reach.
Anyway, he has written out some sample training plans for each month but as far as I understand, they're not periodized at all. Any ideas as to why that is?
http://www.climbingmasterclass.com/training/trainingyear.asp
In reply to Brendan:
????
They are periodised:
November 'Rest Phase' (or mini peaking for sport climbing + bouldering trips)
December: 'Foundation month' - building a base.
January: 'Commence core training' - target weaknesses.
February: 'Consolidation month' - increase volume & add variety.
March: 'Training climax' - increase intensity. The hardest month.
April: 'Tapering month' - reduce volume & intensity of training.
May: 'Peak commences' - Recruitment & tuning work.
June: 'Skills consolidation' - tips for onsighting.
July: 'Redpointing month' - more crag tactics for tearing it up.
August & September: 'System shockers' - late season maintenance training.
October: 'Tapering month' - to prepare for training season
> Anyway, he has written out some sample training plans for each month but as far as I understand, they're not periodized at all. Any ideas as to why that is?
????
They are periodised:
November 'Rest Phase' (or mini peaking for sport climbing + bouldering trips)
December: 'Foundation month' - building a base.
January: 'Commence core training' - target weaknesses.
February: 'Consolidation month' - increase volume & add variety.
March: 'Training climax' - increase intensity. The hardest month.
April: 'Tapering month' - reduce volume & intensity of training.
May: 'Peak commences' - Recruitment & tuning work.
June: 'Skills consolidation' - tips for onsighting.
July: 'Redpointing month' - more crag tactics for tearing it up.
August & September: 'System shockers' - late season maintenance training.
October: 'Tapering month' - to prepare for training season
In reply to shark: But the suggested monthly training schedules don't follow a periodized pattern (as I understand it) ie. target one aspect at a time specifically. For example stamina, then strength, then power endurance.
The weekly program for an all-rounder focusing on routes is:
Monday - rest, Tuesday - boulder, Wednesday - rest, Thursday - stamina, Friday - rest, Saturday - PE, Sunday - stamina
So training stamina, PE and strength all at the same time. The schedule on Neil's website stays pretty much the same from January to April, just gradually increasing the intensity.
Apologies again if I have got the wrong end of the stick, but I thought a periodized plan would be more like:
Jan - focus on stamina, Feb - focus on stength, March - focus on PE, April - peak.
The weekly program for an all-rounder focusing on routes is:
Monday - rest, Tuesday - boulder, Wednesday - rest, Thursday - stamina, Friday - rest, Saturday - PE, Sunday - stamina
So training stamina, PE and strength all at the same time. The schedule on Neil's website stays pretty much the same from January to April, just gradually increasing the intensity.
Apologies again if I have got the wrong end of the stick, but I thought a periodized plan would be more like:
Jan - focus on stamina, Feb - focus on stength, March - focus on PE, April - peak.
In reply to midgets of the world unite:
Yes, but if you read Neil's plan it does not seem to focus on any particular aspect at any point.
Yes, but if you read Neil's plan it does not seem to focus on any particular aspect at any point.
In reply to Brendan:
I don't get it - if you read the plans the emphasis changes throughout the year. Sometimes you're doing more power work, sometimes you're doing more stamina work. How is this not focussing on a specific aspect?
I don't get it - if you read the plans the emphasis changes throughout the year. Sometimes you're doing more power work, sometimes you're doing more stamina work. How is this not focussing on a specific aspect?
In reply to midgets of the world unite:
I was looking more at the training plan for January to April, rather than the whole year. I just expected there to be more of a change between the weekly training plans for different months.
I was looking more at the training plan for January to April, rather than the whole year. I just expected there to be more of a change between the weekly training plans for different months.
In reply to Brendan:
This whole thread has been a mix of interesting and confusing.
Did anyone see this?
http://climbstrong.wordpress.com/2011/10/04/the-simplest-climbing-training-...
This whole thread has been a mix of interesting and confusing.
Did anyone see this?
http://climbstrong.wordpress.com/2011/10/04/the-simplest-climbing-training-...
In reply to seankenny:
Interesting one, cheers - not sure with the "don't waste your time on ARC" advice though - certainly working more endurance (mainly nearer to aerocap mind you) has been a key thing for improving my on sighting and recovery this year.
Will have a look at the rest of the blog posts on that one later.
Cheers,
Andy
Interesting one, cheers - not sure with the "don't waste your time on ARC" advice though - certainly working more endurance (mainly nearer to aerocap mind you) has been a key thing for improving my on sighting and recovery this year.
Will have a look at the rest of the blog posts on that one later.
Cheers,
Andy
In reply to AJM:
Personally I'm not convinced anyone does "pure" ARC training. Perhaps those wtih enough time to spend hours out soloing on the grit. Big Ron comes to mind. But everyone else...?
Personally I'm not convinced anyone does "pure" ARC training. Perhaps those wtih enough time to spend hours out soloing on the grit. Big Ron comes to mind. But everyone else...?
In reply to seankenny:
Some issues with that link -
"That adaptation to these stressors plateaus after 3-4 weeks"
Not sure that's true for AeroCap or AnCap, at least not according to the adaptation times from Binney and Randall.
He slags off ARC and makes no real effort to include AeroCap. Anecdotally I've made major gains in endurance from this sort of training, and the fact that most brits don't do any of it is why a lot suck at enduro routes despite being super strong (IMO).
Some issues with that link -
"That adaptation to these stressors plateaus after 3-4 weeks"
Not sure that's true for AeroCap or AnCap, at least not according to the adaptation times from Binney and Randall.
He slags off ARC and makes no real effort to include AeroCap. Anecdotally I've made major gains in endurance from this sort of training, and the fact that most brits don't do any of it is why a lot suck at enduro routes despite being super strong (IMO).
In reply to seankenny:
I personally try to do something at least once a week that is at the high end of ARC and low-end of aerocap. To be fair probably more aerocap.
> (In reply to AJM)
>
> Personally I'm not convinced anyone does "pure" ARC training. Perhaps those wtih enough time to spend hours out soloing on the grit. Big Ron comes to mind. But everyone else...?
>
> Personally I'm not convinced anyone does "pure" ARC training. Perhaps those wtih enough time to spend hours out soloing on the grit. Big Ron comes to mind. But everyone else...?
I personally try to do something at least once a week that is at the high end of ARC and low-end of aerocap. To be fair probably more aerocap.
In reply to abarro81:
Totally agree with the above statement. Being brick strong on a crimp is useful but is probably not the limiting factor when on a 35metre endurance route in Spain. As with yourself, training endurance and gaining a good base level of ARC and aerocap fitness has given me good gains and has helped a lot in trips to Spain.
> Anecdotally I've made major gains in endurance from this sort of training, and the fact that most brits don't do any of it is why a lot suck at enduro routes despite being super strong (IMO).
Totally agree with the above statement. Being brick strong on a crimp is useful but is probably not the limiting factor when on a 35metre endurance route in Spain. As with yourself, training endurance and gaining a good base level of ARC and aerocap fitness has given me good gains and has helped a lot in trips to Spain.
In reply to abarro81:
Thought this pdf he has about interval training is good for giving you ideas about what sessions to do.
http://climbstrong.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/interval-chart-for-climbing-...
Obviously one could go through it with a fine toothcomb and criticise it but overall I thought it was a pretty straightforward and practical guide to interval training.
I thought that the following statement on his site was pretty true:
1. Organized training plans always work better than random workouts.
2. Most people would rather not follow an organized training plan.
Thought this pdf he has about interval training is good for giving you ideas about what sessions to do.
http://climbstrong.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/interval-chart-for-climbing-...
Obviously one could go through it with a fine toothcomb and criticise it but overall I thought it was a pretty straightforward and practical guide to interval training.
I thought that the following statement on his site was pretty true:
1. Organized training plans always work better than random workouts.
2. Most people would rather not follow an organized training plan.
In reply to davo / barrows:
3rd vote for AeroCap to crush when overseas onsighting - especially in the Grand Grotte area.
I think AeroCap is hard to get the intensity right doing 4x4 on routes as well as being a ball-ache re partners and when the wall is busy with the temptation to overcook the grade for variety/ego. Circuits are better. I find the 20/10 structure works well i.e. 20moves 20secs rest, 10 moves, 10 secs rest x 4 = 120moves per set. 10mins between sets. 2-4sets.
3rd vote for AeroCap to crush when overseas onsighting - especially in the Grand Grotte area.
I think AeroCap is hard to get the intensity right doing 4x4 on routes as well as being a ball-ache re partners and when the wall is busy with the temptation to overcook the grade for variety/ego. Circuits are better. I find the 20/10 structure works well i.e. 20moves 20secs rest, 10 moves, 10 secs rest x 4 = 120moves per set. 10mins between sets. 2-4sets.
In reply to shark:
I'll either slot in at fourth or argue you should all go down a notch since I suggested it before Alex this morning
I'll either slot in at fourth or argue you should all go down a notch since I suggested it before Alex this morning
In reply to AJM:
Very interesting thread, I quite like Alex's proposed 2 stage periodisation with first stage concentrating on endurance / aerocap and strength and the second stage emphasing PE and power. It appeals to my need for something involving a bit more structure but staying relatively simple that can be done utilising limited number of sessions a week. Also concentrating on the 2 aspects in the first stage provides some variety / satisfaction in the training - I'd like to make an effort to train a bit more effectively this winter, but not the extent of not actually enjoying going down to the wall.
Very interesting thread, I quite like Alex's proposed 2 stage periodisation with first stage concentrating on endurance / aerocap and strength and the second stage emphasing PE and power. It appeals to my need for something involving a bit more structure but staying relatively simple that can be done utilising limited number of sessions a week. Also concentrating on the 2 aspects in the first stage provides some variety / satisfaction in the training - I'd like to make an effort to train a bit more effectively this winter, but not the extent of not actually enjoying going down to the wall.
In reply to Ian Patterson:
I suggest start by working out when you intend to finish your training programme. Having worked out how many weeks your training programme will last the divide in two for the two stages. If that is say 16 weeks then that gives you 4 blocks of 4 weeks. For each 4 week block aim to over-do it for 3 weeks and then have an easier 4th week. The first 8 weeks should major on volume, the second 8 weeks on intensity.
I suggest start by working out when you intend to finish your training programme. Having worked out how many weeks your training programme will last the divide in two for the two stages. If that is say 16 weeks then that gives you 4 blocks of 4 weeks. For each 4 week block aim to over-do it for 3 weeks and then have an easier 4th week. The first 8 weeks should major on volume, the second 8 weeks on intensity.
In reply to shark:
Sounds good - first target is to be fit for Spain trip, mid march so just over the 16 weeks, looking to move up from 3 sessions a week to 4 this winter (have got a fingerboard now) so overloading should be easy . Have always found I improved with a easier week every 3 to 4 weeks so that looks like a structure I could work with,
Sounds good - first target is to be fit for Spain trip, mid march so just over the 16 weeks, looking to move up from 3 sessions a week to 4 this winter (have got a fingerboard now) so overloading should be easy . Have always found I improved with a easier week every 3 to 4 weeks so that looks like a structure I could work with,
In reply to Ian Pattersonooking to move up from 3 sessions a week to 4 this winter (have got a fingerboard now)
Come on Ian - show some ambition. 5 sessions a week (minumum) is what you should be doing in the 3 "on" weeks. No excuses now you have a fingerboard.
Come on Ian - show some ambition. 5 sessions a week (minumum) is what you should be doing in the 3 "on" weeks. No excuses now you have a fingerboard.
In reply to shark:
I hasten to add I also do plenty of longer laps type stuff, not sure if this counts as AeroCap as I'm still as confused after reading this thread as before! If I do laps on routes, and at the end of four or five sets I'm pumped, then according to the definition above then it *isn't* AeroCap. God knows what it is. Whilst we're at it, how many angels on the head of a pin?
I guess what I liked about the link I posted is that it would provide something most climbers could actually use. I also thought the way of measuring 4x4 intensity was pretty cool.
I hasten to add I also do plenty of longer laps type stuff, not sure if this counts as AeroCap as I'm still as confused after reading this thread as before! If I do laps on routes, and at the end of four or five sets I'm pumped, then according to the definition above then it *isn't* AeroCap. God knows what it is. Whilst we're at it, how many angels on the head of a pin?
I guess what I liked about the link I posted is that it would provide something most climbers could actually use. I also thought the way of measuring 4x4 intensity was pretty cool.
In reply to seankenny:
If you're "boxed to the level where 5 sets is failure" then that's way harder than aerocap to my understanding. AeroPow at a guess? Happy to be corrected though.
To be fair though, if you're doing some climbing where there's minimal rest and you're getting and shaking out a pump then it's probably near enough to aerocap that's it's doing you some good.
The link is good, don't get me wrong, for the stuff it covers, but in the same way as Training For Climbing it doesn't really seem to cover the aerobic side of things so much.
If you're "boxed to the level where 5 sets is failure" then that's way harder than aerocap to my understanding. AeroPow at a guess? Happy to be corrected though.
To be fair though, if you're doing some climbing where there's minimal rest and you're getting and shaking out a pump then it's probably near enough to aerocap that's it's doing you some good.
The link is good, don't get me wrong, for the stuff it covers, but in the same way as Training For Climbing it doesn't really seem to cover the aerobic side of things so much.
In reply to AJM:
So let's say one does five sets of four routes, with breaks inbetween each set (in practical terms the break will be roughly equal to the climbing time as that's when your partner does her stuff), then what level of knackeredness should I be aspiring to? And what effect should this have on my overall climbing?
I would like to think it was doing *some* good
It's just a link to some stuff a guy wrote on a blog. I guess my problem with the ideas discussed in this thread is they're simply too complicated for most non-professionals to understand effectively and implement. I'm not sure if that's because the ideas are too complicated, or because they're not being well enough expressed.
> (In reply to seankenny)
>
> If you're "boxed to the level where 5 sets is failure" then that's way harder than aerocap to my understanding. AeroPow at a guess? Happy to be corrected though.
>
> If you're "boxed to the level where 5 sets is failure" then that's way harder than aerocap to my understanding. AeroPow at a guess? Happy to be corrected though.
So let's say one does five sets of four routes, with breaks inbetween each set (in practical terms the break will be roughly equal to the climbing time as that's when your partner does her stuff), then what level of knackeredness should I be aspiring to? And what effect should this have on my overall climbing?
>
> To be fair though, if you're doing some climbing where there's minimal rest and you're getting and shaking out a pump then it's probably near enough to aerocap that's it's doing you some good.
> To be fair though, if you're doing some climbing where there's minimal rest and you're getting and shaking out a pump then it's probably near enough to aerocap that's it's doing you some good.
I would like to think it was doing *some* good
>
> The link is good, don't get me wrong, for the stuff it covers, but in the same way as Training For Climbing it doesn't really seem to cover the aerobic side of things so much.
> The link is good, don't get me wrong, for the stuff it covers, but in the same way as Training For Climbing it doesn't really seem to cover the aerobic side of things so much.
It's just a link to some stuff a guy wrote on a blog. I guess my problem with the ideas discussed in this thread is they're simply too complicated for most non-professionals to understand effectively and implement. I'm not sure if that's because the ideas are too complicated, or because they're not being well enough expressed.
In reply to seankenny:
I'm a big fan of simplicity. But climbing ain't as simple pressing n x your bodyweight over your head. Doing straight laps will leave you pumped.I've tried it abnd it doesnt work for AeroCap. That's why the 20/10 regime is genius and much cooler. The first 20 is no bother or indeed the next 10 but with only 10 secs rest the next 20 is uncomfortable but at least you get 20 secs rest so the next 10 is ok but you only get 10 secs rest so the next 20 is HARD but you KNOW that after that you only have one lot of 20 to do so with 20 secs rest in the bag the next 10 is tough but OK but the last 20 is hard but you KNOW its the last 20 so that's OK and you get a sweet 20 secs rest which makes the last 10 piss and makes you think that overall the set has actually been OK really so another set after 10 minutes rest will be fine. So the answer is 120 angels on each pin and the key is how you stack 'em.
This message is brought to you coutesy of the rhone valley.
I'm a big fan of simplicity. But climbing ain't as simple pressing n x your bodyweight over your head. Doing straight laps will leave you pumped.I've tried it abnd it doesnt work for AeroCap. That's why the 20/10 regime is genius and much cooler. The first 20 is no bother or indeed the next 10 but with only 10 secs rest the next 20 is uncomfortable but at least you get 20 secs rest so the next 10 is ok but you only get 10 secs rest so the next 20 is HARD but you KNOW that after that you only have one lot of 20 to do so with 20 secs rest in the bag the next 10 is tough but OK but the last 20 is hard but you KNOW its the last 20 so that's OK and you get a sweet 20 secs rest which makes the last 10 piss and makes you think that overall the set has actually been OK really so another set after 10 minutes rest will be fine. So the answer is 120 angels on each pin and the key is how you stack 'em.
This message is brought to you coutesy of the rhone valley.
In reply to shark:
I'm reading this with rhone valley glasses on and it makes perfect sense.
I will try it this weekend...
I'm reading this with rhone valley glasses on and it makes perfect sense.
I will try it this weekend...
In reply to shark: I think that's the best description I've read of anything ever.
In reply to shark: pmsl. i always found 20/10 uncomfortable but theyre just not cricket are they.
In reply to shark:
>>
A recentish article suggests this could be a good combination:
Kang et al 2009
Effect of preceeding resistance exercise on metabolism during subsequent aerobic session
European Journal of Applied Physiology
I wonder if tinkering with diet is of value here during training phases?
Burke 2010
Fueling strategies to optimise performance: train high or train low
Scand J Med Sci Sports
Heck et al 2004
Gene-Nutrition interaction in human performance and exercise response
Nutrition
Interesting thread, if not confusing at times. Might try those 20/10's if I'm ever forced to climb indoors again! k
>>
> Something I am intending to do a lot of this winter is strength training in the morning with an Aerobic Capacity session in the evening.
A recentish article suggests this could be a good combination:
Kang et al 2009
Effect of preceeding resistance exercise on metabolism during subsequent aerobic session
European Journal of Applied Physiology
I wonder if tinkering with diet is of value here during training phases?
Burke 2010
Fueling strategies to optimise performance: train high or train low
Scand J Med Sci Sports
Heck et al 2004
Gene-Nutrition interaction in human performance and exercise response
Nutrition
Interesting thread, if not confusing at times. Might try those 20/10's if I'm ever forced to climb indoors again! k
In reply to shark:
Hi again,
Can we relate these training parameters to the energy systems that are involved?
1.Anaerobic alactic (ready stored energy in muscles; mainly ATP,CP)
2.Anaerobic lactic/Glycolysis (ATP from glycogen/glucose giving LacticAcid)
3.Oxydative (Atp from Krebb's cycle)
I suspect some of the confusion in the terminology arises when you look at the various ways you can improve performance by increasing the relative contribution of oxygen (sparing stored energy and reliance on glycolysis)to what is largely considered an anaerobic sport. The same way maximal dead hangs, improve your strength endurance. k
> (In reply to lon
>
> I would if I could! AeroPower and AnPower are things I struggle getting my head around from a theory point of view. They are part of the Binney model which as you rightly point out centres on energy systems but undoubtedly the AnCap and AnPower work that you would do would lead to recruitment and muscle growth as a consequence.I have sat in front whilst Dave Binney has explained how they differ but it has left my head spinning!
>
> The name "AerobicPower" seems almost a contradiction in terms but the table on page6 explains the metabolic effects of each and the table on page 10 gives practical guidance for constructing the exercises/sessions.
> I share what I guess is your unease that off-the-wall recruitment and muscle growth work doesn't appear integrated, or even mentioned. But perhaps that is the way it should be i.e. the place for weights, campusing or fingerboarding should only being supplementary add-ons. I've just blogged about this as I am trying to construct my winter training programme.
>
> I would if I could! AeroPower and AnPower are things I struggle getting my head around from a theory point of view. They are part of the Binney model which as you rightly point out centres on energy systems but undoubtedly the AnCap and AnPower work that you would do would lead to recruitment and muscle growth as a consequence.I have sat in front whilst Dave Binney has explained how they differ but it has left my head spinning!
>
> The name "AerobicPower" seems almost a contradiction in terms but the table on page6 explains the metabolic effects of each and the table on page 10 gives practical guidance for constructing the exercises/sessions.
> I share what I guess is your unease that off-the-wall recruitment and muscle growth work doesn't appear integrated, or even mentioned. But perhaps that is the way it should be i.e. the place for weights, campusing or fingerboarding should only being supplementary add-ons. I've just blogged about this as I am trying to construct my winter training programme.
Hi again,
Can we relate these training parameters to the energy systems that are involved?
1.Anaerobic alactic (ready stored energy in muscles; mainly ATP,CP)
2.Anaerobic lactic/Glycolysis (ATP from glycogen/glucose giving LacticAcid)
3.Oxydative (Atp from Krebb's cycle)
I suspect some of the confusion in the terminology arises when you look at the various ways you can improve performance by increasing the relative contribution of oxygen (sparing stored energy and reliance on glycolysis)to what is largely considered an anaerobic sport. The same way maximal dead hangs, improve your strength endurance. k
In reply to seankenny:
Did you look at the UKB link? There's a good slide somewhere near the end that summarises how to train each type and gives samples of how you train for it in terms of actual "5 set of this".
Did you look at the UKB link? There's a good slide somewhere near the end that summarises how to train each type and gives samples of how you train for it in terms of actual "5 set of this".
In reply to seankenny:
In terms of the level of knackeredness to aspire to, the phrase I've heard is "pumped but in control" - a shakeout able pump. By the end of a session I am usually sweating and my arms are sort of feeling drained. My arms get pumped but it's never the sort of rock solid forearms pump.
Basically it gets you fit for long endurance stuff. I found my ability to shake out at rests increased massively both in terms of how fast I could recover and also what I could recover on.
I have a big bendcrete boulder that's about 50 moves round at my local wall, and it's got a variety of places you can shake out on it, and I just go round and round and shakeout wherever I need to in order to keep going. Gets kind of boring though!
In terms of the level of knackeredness to aspire to, the phrase I've heard is "pumped but in control" - a shakeout able pump. By the end of a session I am usually sweating and my arms are sort of feeling drained. My arms get pumped but it's never the sort of rock solid forearms pump.
Basically it gets you fit for long endurance stuff. I found my ability to shake out at rests increased massively both in terms of how fast I could recover and also what I could recover on.
I have a big bendcrete boulder that's about 50 moves round at my local wall, and it's got a variety of places you can shake out on it, and I just go round and round and shakeout wherever I need to in order to keep going. Gets kind of boring though!
In reply to koalapie:
Referring to page6 http://ukbouldering.com/media/pdf/principlestraining.pdf
AeroCap: Increase muscles ability to use oxygen for energy production
AnCap: Increase lactate production rate
AeroPower: Increase the % of aerobic capacity you can sustain for your climb
AnPower: Increase the % of anaerobic capacity you can sustain for your climb
Personally I am still hazy on the key physiological/metabolic/theoretical difference between "Capacity" and "Power" as defined by Dave other than on a practical level that the former provides a foundation for the latter at higher intensities or as Dave describes it "increasing operating potential".
I am sure that there is more to it than what he has put on the table in terms of relating it to a cellular type level - this was a presentation to climbing coachs rather than a science convention. I'm not sure whether he has published a paper on it. I googled but nothing was obvious.
> Can we relate these training parameters to the energy systems that are involved?
Referring to page6 http://ukbouldering.com/media/pdf/principlestraining.pdf
AeroCap: Increase muscles ability to use oxygen for energy production
AnCap: Increase lactate production rate
AeroPower: Increase the % of aerobic capacity you can sustain for your climb
AnPower: Increase the % of anaerobic capacity you can sustain for your climb
Personally I am still hazy on the key physiological/metabolic/theoretical difference between "Capacity" and "Power" as defined by Dave other than on a practical level that the former provides a foundation for the latter at higher intensities or as Dave describes it "increasing operating potential".
I am sure that there is more to it than what he has put on the table in terms of relating it to a cellular type level - this was a presentation to climbing coachs rather than a science convention. I'm not sure whether he has published a paper on it. I googled but nothing was obvious.
More on AeroCap - i.e. it doesn't just have to be about 20/10's !!
Binney advocates that you throw in a route (circuit!) at a higher intensity at the start of a set followed by lower intensity reps which Randall also describes in the latest edition of Climb i.e 1 one route at your onsight level followed by 4-8 routes at a comfortable level.
Another regime is "Cascades" described on the Moon site http://www.moonclimbing.com/endurance-training-c-334_364.html i.e a route at your onsight level followed by 3 up and downs at descending level of difficulty
There is another described as "On-the-minute" and of course 4x4's has been talked about extensively on other threads
Binney advocates that you throw in a route (circuit!) at a higher intensity at the start of a set followed by lower intensity reps which Randall also describes in the latest edition of Climb i.e 1 one route at your onsight level followed by 4-8 routes at a comfortable level.
Another regime is "Cascades" described on the Moon site http://www.moonclimbing.com/endurance-training-c-334_364.html i.e a route at your onsight level followed by 3 up and downs at descending level of difficulty
There is another described as "On-the-minute" and of course 4x4's has been talked about extensively on other threads
In reply to AJM:
Thanks Andy, checked out the link, very useful.
I probably go slightly over this when doing route laps at the wall, and end up with a fairly solid pump. Guess I need to dial it back a bit.
This actually reminds me of the bit in Jerry's book where he's training for the US and Supercrack, doing laps in a cave and shaking out on a big hold. It obviously worked for him - his onsight ability at that time was phenomenal - so guess it's worth putting up with the boredom. Also shows there's nothing new under the sun...
> (In reply to seankenny)
Thanks Andy, checked out the link, very useful.
> In terms of the level of knackeredness to aspire to, the phrase I've heard is "pumped but in control" - a shakeout able pump. By the end of a session I am usually sweating and my arms are sort of feeling drained. My arms get pumped but it's never the sort of rock solid forearms pump.
I probably go slightly over this when doing route laps at the wall, and end up with a fairly solid pump. Guess I need to dial it back a bit.
> I have a big bendcrete boulder that's about 50 moves round at my local wall, and it's got a variety of places you can shake out on it,
This actually reminds me of the bit in Jerry's book where he's training for the US and Supercrack, doing laps in a cave and shaking out on a big hold. It obviously worked for him - his onsight ability at that time was phenomenal - so guess it's worth putting up with the boredom. Also shows there's nothing new under the sun...
In reply to shark: Ok cool I'll have a look at those, thanks. I had a second look at that table and the one following it and admit it made a lot more sense the second time round. Also thinking about it regarding the initial higher intensity set at the beginning of Aercocap sounds consistent with the concept of oxygen debt. Rock climbing- an aerobic sport after all?!?
In reply to koalapie:
MVO2 Max - in case anyone gets the wrong idea !
> Rock climbing- an aerobic sport after all?!?
MVO2 Max - in case anyone gets the wrong idea !
In reply to davo:
I actually found doing ARC stuff led to the single biggest improvement in my climbing since starting bouldering.
I was climbing at quite a low grade at the time but I found doing half an hour of easy climbing at a time led to massive improvements in my foot placements, flow etc.
I guess it wouldn't be as effective for people climbing at a higher level.
I actually found doing ARC stuff led to the single biggest improvement in my climbing since starting bouldering.
I was climbing at quite a low grade at the time but I found doing half an hour of easy climbing at a time led to massive improvements in my foot placements, flow etc.
I guess it wouldn't be as effective for people climbing at a higher level.
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