UKC

Heading to the Ben this weekend, is it all wet and black or is there some white stuff needing crampons and axes ?

Thinking tower ridge, I know it was in full winter condition a couple of weeks ago then it got warm and wet again - did any of the snow survive ?

In reply to Pids: The mountain is pretty much snow free again. There are a couple of patches here and there but they shouldn't be a problem for you on Tower ridge in it's present state. They are forecasting snow for the highest summits again by the end of the week again though.

In reply to Pids: Hope your bringing your sharp things Martin - I'm banking on it being winter!

In reply to Pids:

Been very mild & wet here in Fort William and looks set to continue until the weekend. Would be surprised if there's anything more than a few patches of slush up there - certainly looked black from Torlundy today.

In reply to Pids:

Meant to freeze during the nights this weekend. Pity there's nothing to freeze! You might want to watch out for verglas if it's been wet though.

In reply to Pids:

Sorry to disappoint I dont think tower ridge was in full winter condition 2 weeks ago.

In reply to sphagnum: It was wintery enough... http://alanhalewood.blogspot.com/2011/10/wintery-on-tower-ridge.html

In reply to hexcentric: Yes, I caught James and co up on the walk in. They did Ledge Route and I did Tower Ridge- which would have been impossible for me without axe and crampons.

In reply to hexcentric:

Full winter condition pfffft !

Depends on how you define "full winter condition"!

In reply to Pids: good forecast looks brilliant-i would go for it

In reply to tom.fox: ps i would always take axes crampons rope a few slings etc on tower ridge!

In reply to sphagnum: Yeah quite a difference between acceptably snowy and full winter nick. I read the report on TR and it was quite a way off what I'd call full winter nick, only the top section wasn't a bit melty right. Also ledge route in good nick is not really a snowed up rock route is it, its normally these long neve snow ramps/shallow gullies with pretty much the only exposed rock you climb on being the crux which is very short lived.

In reply to tom.fox: What even in summer?

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Look again at my photo from Ledge Route on that day - it was definitely in winter nick. Obviously no neve, but how is it not in "full winter nick" when there is snow covering everything and rime ice on at least half of the route?

I caught up with Al Halewood on the way down after he had climbed Tower Ridge - in my opinion we had both definitely climbed something in winter nick, however "full". It was mid October.

In reply to JamesRoddie: Ok we are arguing symenatics. Read Als blog again and tell me if you REALLY think that describes full WINTER conditions or early season autumn just about in style nick. He describes the snow as being wet and some areas of rock being black until above the eastern traverse which is above the top of ledge route. I'm not slagging you off just saying that in full winter nick ledge route doesn't have rocks pokeing out of it as per your ascent and the route is on neve (I guess you must have done it mid season before right?) I'd be interested in what the initial ramp was like on the day as that can't be much higher than the snowline was. Anyway good on you for getting out and gettting a route done on the day but don't kid your self that the ben only has a few inches of wet snow covering rocks and some calf deep drifts in mid winter.

In reply to CurlyStevo: Ummm actually it was a lot more wintery than I expected and than on many occasions when I've done it in the middle of the season. "I didn't see bare rock very often" and that was only below the little tower really. What surprised me was the fact that the rock was almost all ice clad from the moment I hit the ridge when in past early season ascents I've got away without crampons until the Little Tower. Yes the ice and snow that was there was wet and had begun to thaw but I got more winter than I'd bargained for.
I guess it depends a little on your definition of winter.... I've done Tower Ridge many times in wintery conditions and in many months of the year. I've done it with perfect neve and bare rock in spring, Alpine-like conditions, a heavy dusting of fresh snow and verglas in February, wet rock and thawing snow and ice in January and buried under huge amounts of mid season snow where hardly any rock was visible at all. Its different to climb every time and the conditions vary hugely and can seem more or less 'wintery' at any time of the season. I usually deliberately avoid calling it in 'winter' condition on early season ascents (I'll say 'wintery' instead) now to avoid arguments. However on this occasion, and comparing it to many season round ascents, I'll come off the fence. It was in one of the many types of winter conditions we see and caught me a little unawares as to how full on a 'winter condition' it was in. If my blog post gives another impression that's down to my writing but thought I'd comment.
Al

In reply to AlH:
OK fair enough. When I did tower ridge around feburary some years back there was several feet (or more) of good neve over much of the ridge covered with 6 inches to a foot of powder. There was ice all over the shop and quite a lot of largish icicles around and about. There certainly wasn't anything melting!

My memory of ledge route is that the majority of it is really a kind of series of shallow gullies and to be in good nick these will be hard neve of quite some depth, certainly wouldn't be expecting to see partially snow covered rocks here.

Anyway I wasn't trying to take anything away from the ascents good on you all I'm clearly jealous. I'm not in anyway saying that I wouldn't have been there cllimbing too if I could have been. However I think you'll agree that typical good mid season conditions (which is what I would call full winter perhaps with some hardcore weather thrown in) would be quite different to what was experienced during less than 1 week of wintry conditions in early autumn last month!

I would say your blog is slightly disparate to your above description, your blog clearly says that the snow on the ridge was wet and mentions thawing ice/snow being problematic until the eastern traverse, also that 1cm of ice was present on steep windward rock rather than cladding everything. Also there was some mention of occasional black/wet rock.

In reply to munri:
what a load of rubbish I never said or implied that.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Even on Ledge Route the snow stopped being wet only just above the first ramp and it was (surprisingly deep) powder just like it can be at any other point in the season. I've been up Ledge Route in very similar conditions in December last year after over a month of full winter weather and freeze.

Anyway Stevo I'm not after an argument, I just think the definition of "full winter nick" can mean many different things to different people.

Hope you manage to get some winter climbing in this season, let's hope it'll be another good one.

James

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Geez, does the UK climbing scene REALLY need such pencil pushing?

In reply to stoopidstu:

I suppose it depends on whether the pencil is in "Acceptable winter nick"...HaHa!

Everyone knows winter climbers don't know how to use pencils. Communication is only achived through grunts, swearies and rope tugs. Ever tried to ask where the milk is in rope tugs?

In reply to CurlyStevo:

If we were talking about a steep turfy mixed route then this might be an argument worth having. But to my mind Tower Ridge and Ledge Route are mountaineering objectives (ridges) that can be done in any condition, common sense taken into account of course.

In reply to Michael Gordon:
good god I never said any different. It was mearly a meant to be a bit of banter regarding the difference between a bit of snow in the autumn and the type of nick you'd expect mid winter.

In reply to Pids: I'd take a dozen cans of Stella if I were you Martin!

In reply to CurlyStevo: OK never mind then, no offence intended.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

... and that is totally acceptable and what the forum is about. Purely as an observation you might consider that the way your posts are written they come across to some OPs as more 'black and white' statements of incontrovertible fact rather than 'banter' or 'discussion'. From your last post this is not your intention but it can make other posters defensive. In the same way as my blog post didn't come across to you in the way I intended it to your posts may not be being perceived by others in the way you think they will. This is the weakness of the internet... we can't see your face, hear your tone or ask instantly for confirmation if we are interpreting things correctly as in a conversation. This isn't necessarily any form of criticism, just an observation.

Al

In reply to AlH:

Quite right. And in the same way photos of routes can be extremely deceptive and fail to convey what things were actually like on the ground, especially when it comes to winter conditions - another hazard when it comes to blogging your routes.

James

In reply to AlH:

Well said! Although I am a lot less experienced than you, I had a similar idea of what acceptable winter conditions were (including on Tower Ridge, which I have done once).

M

In reply to Pids: With the warm weather here and the great wkend forecast, I'm wondering if a rock ascent of obs ridge would be a goer. Anybody any idea how quickly this route dry's off? I've experianced wet Ben Nevis rock before and don't wish to replicate the experiance. I appreciate this is not a 'winter climbing' question but seems more appropiate here based on the original title of this thread. Still have hopes for this route after a shite summer!

In reply to glaramara: The hardest bits dry the quickest. The long easier sections are frequently damp for some time after rain. I've done it in the rain and it was pretty slippery. If you don't mind damp mountaineery VDiff give it a try.

In reply to glaramara:

I think it would take a couple of days on average but it hasn't been very dry recently(!) nor is it summer anymore.

It will still be an adventure though!

In reply to AlH: Hmmm heavy rain 2nite and possibly a bit showery 2morrow. Looking a bit unlikely actually as i'd have to do it saturday.

In reply to glaramara: Aye, I'd no sooner posted than the heavy rain hit 'sunny' Corpach. Wet it will be.

In reply to glaramara: I've done it in the wet after been rained off The Long Climb... It's class but only if you are comfortable on wet rock...

E

I work next to Ben Nevis, is all clear! And for this weekend weather looks good!