UKC

Steve Scott takes a look at the ever-present winter conditions debate ahead of a meeting in the Lake District.

To have your say come to the 'live' debate arranged by the Lakes Area BMC at the Hawkshead Brewery, Mill Yard Steveley nr. Kendal on November 30th starting at 8pm. Dave Birkett, Max Biden, Simon Webb are speaking with Nick Colton keeping control from the chair.

Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=4170

In reply to UKC Articles:

See also:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=480341

In reply to UKC Articles:

Can this debate be filmed? I'd like to see the outcome.

In reply to UKC Articles:

I would like to wish Nick Coulton the very best of luck. Chairing that meeting is a sourly poisoned chalice.

In reply to Franco Cookson:
ill ask can do it

In reply to UKC Articles:
An interesting point you may want to discuss is how to achieve ethical recognition and understanding...
We, climbers of a certain experience, seem to think that newbies should know better.
It took me years of going out and very good tutoring by well versed winter climbers to recognise conditions and understand the difference between what was right and what was wrong.
In this process I have done a few climbs that were not in nick, not proud of it and probably around 5-10% of all my winter climbs... mostly when I first went without the aforementioned gurus.

A book with pics a bit like that of Ian Parnell's (winter climbing+?) with clear photos, weather patterns could be produced? I hate the idea because I think it's more valuable to learn on the ground but if you're so concerned might be worth it? After all you do have less hills and more climbers in England-shire (I know I'm cheeky but then do not pay attention to anything I say, I'm but a frog!)

In reply to French Erick:

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter whether there is a milimetre or an 3 inches of hoar, the rock will still get scratched. The question is whether scratching is such a problem and any worse than polish and mass-devegitation.

I hope this debate doesn't get caught up with what is 'in condition', as it makes very little difference to the summer rock climber.

The debate is about everyone living together happily, which means turf preservation for winter climbers (already pulled out in the majority of places) and the preservation of rock features.

A chap climbing up bowfell buttress in July doesn't care if the rock he is climbing on was scratched in good conditions or when the crag was bare. That doesn't mean it's alright to go up out of condition stuff, just that it shouldn't be the emphasis of the debate.

In reply to simondgee:
I think that there are many people who live and climb in Scotland who have a vested interest in the debate, but won't be attending so yes i would very much like to see debate. Whilst i and others in the North may only do a few routes in our life times in the lakes i think that this debate could be interesting as it may influence the direction of the future game.
I remember a lakes debate about bolting that was filmed and posted and this was very useful.
So, please can an unedited fly on the wall film be made.
Many thanks
James

In reply to simondgee:


That would be ace. Thanks.

In reply to UKC Articles:
"He points out, before these summer routes were climbed on Gable Crag some preparation was needed, they "poured petrol down the crag and set fire to it. The same people were also it's strongest "environmental" supporters in the light of (the) winter 'destruction'.""

Did this really happen? Who are 'they' that set fire to the crag? It has more than the slightest hint of bullshit about it.

George.

In reply to UKC Articles:

The MCofS guidelines were considered by SMC winter guidebook authors to be hostile to winter climbers and to have no evidence that rare plants were being damaged. Also many of the classic winter routes did not obey the guidelines. It was felt they could not be quoted in guidebooks which then went on to describe those routes. So I hope that any guidelines do not just reflect the majority of rock climbers over winter climbers, and an apparent sour grapes that they are enjoying theselves in an off-season. Having said that, winter climbing on low level unfrozen crags, especially on rock types which scratch easily, is selfish.

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

Why does the altitude matter? If a crag is out of condition, it's out of condition.

In reply to GPN:

I thought this happened on Great End Crag - the one with Banzai pipeline on it & prone to rapidly getting overgrown. Not sure if it was a natural fire or not.

In reply to UKC Articles:

I hope this debate will help to address the issue of the (seeming) increase in dry tooling in the South Lakes area over the last few years. Hopefully a 'consensus' over suitable venues will limit damage to established (and popular) rock routes. See links below for background information.

http://www.frcc.co.uk/climbs.asp?guide_id=10&crag_id=94&climb_id=30...

http://lakesbloc.blogspot.com/2011/04/farleton-dry-tooling-continues.html

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=404783

http://ukbouldering.com/wiki/index.php/Dry_Tooling_Damage_Log

In reply to pasbury:

There was a fire on Great End Crag (Borrowdale) in the 1950s - this I believe led climbers up there to climb the likes of Slime Corner, Redberry Wall and Styx - now grown back - gardened in the 1970s - could do with a very dry summer again and another fire (caused by nature - that would be a natural occurance)

Back to scratches again - scratches on rock whether done when a route is in or out of condition are still scratches.

Putting both the above together and we had some really cold conditions Great End Crag in Borrowdale could be awesome.

In reply to Ron Kenyon:

Who's to say the last fire wasn't natural? After all, Mick Ryan is a product of nature.

In reply to AndyGrey86:

It seems as if UKC is trying to cover something up and makes me wonder whether this rumour is in fact true.

In reply to AndyGrey86:

It was (strongly suspected to be) Bentley Beetham in the 50's.

In reply to UKC Articles:

The photos in the article are dated 27th October 2011, that can't be right?

We are currently having Cumbrian summer!

In reply to James Edwards:

I think Mick Ryan filmed that, (Woody in full flow in the Golden Rule if my memory serves me correctly!) he may well be able to do the same for the winter debate.

In reply to Franco Cookson:


Because if there is some sense of altitude (Ben Nevis good, Glen Nevis bad) or perhaps region (mixed climbing is something you do in the Scottish Highland, not in the Southern Uplands, or in the Lake District, not the Peak District) then just because a crag that isn't in the mountains is "in condition", it's still not in condition.

In reply to Exile:

Surely Mick Ryan has a conflict of interest, when it comes to impartially filming the debate to create an accurate representation, if he is suspected by some of starting the fires, that rendered winter climbing on Gable and Great End ruined for many years?

In reply to TobyA:

I don't understand that argument. Why should winter climbing be restricted to one area in England? There is a long history of winter climbing in the NY Moors for example and it has been going on with-out a hitch for decades.

In reply to Franco Cookson: Well obviously you would bring that up as a) you seem to have a biological need to mention 'the Moors' in every third post and b) you put up all your pictures of climbing there, so obviously would need to justify it.

But if winter climbing on single pitch edges in North Yorkshire is OK, I have no idea how you justifiably say to Callum and co. that doing it in South Yorkshire isn't ok.

Fortunately most people see mixed climbing as mountaineering, and mountaineering as something done in the mountains so these issues don't arise to often. Fortunately, ice is ice and is good anywhere you are lucky enough to find it.

In reply to TobyA:

The sacred ground is soft rock that is climbed on in summer. All the mixed venues in the moors are places where people don't climb in summer, or VERY few people climb on in summer ( <one person a year).

I don't see a difference between gimmer and Scafel though, although you should only be out with crampons if it's in winter nick.

In reply to UKC Articles:

It seems to me that there several issues to be dealt with here, and perhaps this could form the basis for a constructive agenda at the meeting.

1. To what extent does the winter climbing community want to minimise damage to rock?
2. Which winter techniques damage rock the most?
3. Are we going to simply stop climbing summer rock routes in winter?
4. If not then can we minimise this damage and maximise high quality ethical winter climbing in Cumbria?
5. What are acceptable conditions for an ethical winter ascent of a Cumbrian summer rock climb?
6. Can we develop a unique winter ethic for Cumbrian winter rock routes that recognises the value of Cumbrian rock as a summer and winter venue and helps to preserve it?


1. Clearly the winter climbing community needs to be on board. I'm a Scottish expat Cumbrian died in the wool summer trad climber (!) and I value both aspects of Cumbrian climbing highly. Summer rock is a large part of why I moved here (that and the beer). I've recently got back into winter climbing too. As a winter climber I don't want to wreck rock routes, I want to climb them in style. I think rock routes that are quality lines in winter condition are fair game, and I'll be climbing them. I'm not going to set out to damage them, and I certainly won't be pegging. I have my eye on quite a few lines, and I agree that care needs to be taken to minimise damage. Some wear and tear on the rock is going to happen in both summer and winter aspects of our sport, but on an ascent by ascent basis, the potential for damage in winter is much greater.

2. I think that most people would agree that torquing axes, hammering gear and axes, and scarting about are probably the most damaging things we can do techniquewise whilst winter climbing. Perhaps equally (although of less concern to rock climbers), climbing unfrozen turf is bad too. Hooking leaves marks, but not on a par with torquing or bad footwork.

3. I personally believe that the rock doesn't belong to summer or winter climbers, but that an ethic needs to be found which minimises or excludes major damage. Minor damage and wear and tear is an inevitable part of summer and winter ascents. I do think that when in good winter condition, summer rock routes are totally fair game, and that it is inevitable that wear and tear will occur.

4. So how can we approach our ascents with a view to view to minimising the most damaging techniques? Perhaps we need to move towards an ethic that acknowledges that high quality ethical winter ascents of summer rock routes emphasises a different set of techniques than that which is appropriate in the Scottish corries? Certainly for me, pegging is out, and hammering gear looks like it should become unacceptable too. Are there any other techniques that we could rule in or rule out? A bit like on the soft sandstone in Germany where metal gear is out, can we develop a local ethic here to preserve classic lines from getting trashed in winter? Torquing and hammering axes and hammering axes are fairly high wear. Do we rule these out and move to a hooking based technique? Or do we just accept the damage and plough on?

5. How do we identify a clearer Cumbrian ethic for making judgements based upon conditions? Do we do this on a route by route basis? Crag by crag? Can we make a database that emphasises vulnerable routes or crags? Do we need to rewrite the conditions ethic so that Cumbrian classics don't get trashed like the Norries? If we go down this road how do we get it into the public domain?

6. So can we develop an ethic fro Cumbria that emphasises which techniques and conditions
are valid. I think we need this due to the unique and growing dual summer and winter use of Cumbria's crags. I want to climb in winter but not at the expense of trashed summer routes. I'm willing to restrict my winter activity to some degree but I also accept that wear will occur if winter climbing in Cumbria is to grow in the modern idiom.


So could this be the basis for an agenda?

Frith Wood

In reply to greenroom:

A slipping hook causes more damage than a good torque. I agree with the majority of what you say though.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Yeah very valid point. No easy answers.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Well, if that's the standard then many of Scottish Highland valley crags would be "fair game" if white, but very few Scottish mixed climbers would think that was sensible of sporting.

In reply to TobyA:

Yes but this isn't Scotland. Different circumstances lead to different pressures.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

I can see a couple of reasons other than the conditions for the mountain crags vs smaller, lower outcrops thing:
One is the limiting effect on the traffic - it takes a bit of effort and commitment to get up to a high mountain crag so only so many people are going to bother, whereas if winter climbing was considered alright at roadside venues then every punter who can borrow a pair of axes would turn up for a go. If you're able to deal with scratched up rock in moderation but wouldn't like it to get excessive then this is one way of keeping it limited without having to install a turnstile...

The other is that at a smaller lowland crag, the aesthetic appeal of the climb has more to do with the piece of rock in front of you. If you find that the crampon scratches on the Cuillin or Tower Ridge detract from the experience then you probably need to stop, take a breath, and look around you. At a random outcrop the focus on the next piece of rock is kind of a bigger part of the experience.

In reply to Ramblin dave:
NB I'm not saying that that's a clinching argument or anything, just punting it out there.

In reply to Ramblin dave:



I'm pleased you're not, because it 'holds no water at all'. I was talking about crags like gimmer, which are hardly road side, but even with a road side crag, your argument is harping back to effectively say that summer climbers have more of a right to be there than winter climbers. (not to mention the fact that low crags won't be in condition as much, which will act as a limit on ascents.)

In regard to the other argument on the important of aesthetics, I think it's weak. All most all low level climbing venues relied on the destruction of vegitation in their development, which inhibited future winter climbing. Scratches hinder summer climbing in no way: so you're effectively putting the aesthetics in one person's climbing above the necessities of another person's.

In reply to greenroom:

Good post.

I'd add avoid dragging inexperienced climbers up duel-classic winter lines/summer rock routes as seconds as they have a huge capacity to damage the route. Some benefits of the top climbers on winter rock lines is there are not many operating at that standard so traffic is low and their technique is usually good. Many of us have almost given up on challenging the mess created by poor crampon technique on popular routes of this type (eg Bowfell Buttress) but if this extended to all rock routes of that grade it would be tragic. I'd add that people forget that the long winter tradition being used as justification wasn't started with modern sharp crampons or modern axes.

In reply to Offwidth: No, it was started with nailed boots, which are also great at damaging the rock. Bowfell Buttress was first winter climbed in the 1930s and is as much a classic winter climb as a classic summer one.

Personally I think low level crags should be left alone in winter on established routes Also a crag's aspect is important too - high level, north facing ones are fair game I think, whereas I am pretty dubious about how appropriate the winter effects of Asterisk and D route on Gimmer.

In reply to MattG:

Springbank was in last year and if it's in again next year it'll get done (unless someone does it this year). That'll be the winter line of the lakes I reckon and perfectly legit.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Aye......the chances of someone who lives in Innsbruck being at Gimmer when it's in condition seem somewhat remote. I suspect Gimmer was "in condition" for about 3 days last winter - and that in itself is a rare occurance.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Are you on coke?

In reply to Franco Cookson:

That shows very little imagination Franco.

The thing with gimmer is that on the rare occasions that it is in condition, it is almost impossible to get to.

In reply to 3leggeddog:

I say,this young chap seems aptly named for some of the views he propounds.

In reply to Jim Crow:

What I am saying Jim, is that Gimmer is rarely in nick and when it is it is usually in a storm which has made the road impassable. Should have made myslef clearer.

In reply to 3leggeddog:

Oh, I'm so sorry if I caused confusion - I understood you perfectly and entirely agree. It's that Franco chap I meant to reply to!

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Unless it was very heavily iced up, springbank would make a poor choice of winter climb. For me as a summer and winter climber that's not my idea of fair game. It can be done, but to what useful end? Twenty winter climbers on Springbank could easily change it beyond recognition for summer climbers. I drear to think what it would look like after one hundred climbers. When you are sharing resources in society with other groups it is not enough to do what you like without consideration for those groups. I don't think that this is the way for the debate to go, it's immature to pull out obviously inappropriate summer climbs, Springbank isn't even in the grey area. Do we really need to go into the debate at this level?

Let's try to raise the standard of discussion even just a little, and inject some realism. Yes of course we can all climb whatever the hell we want to however we want, but is that really the way we want things to go in Cumbria?

Is there no room for compromise, no value at all in minimising damage? I for one think that the road you are taking Franco is shortsighted at best. Yes vegetation was removed from summer climbs that would have made them more suitable for winter, but that's the way it is now. It's not as if it was premeditated. That doesn't mean it's right or good to act as if the vegetation is still there and as if we have some kind of god given right to make a mess of things - "they took our grass so we get to scratch their rock". If the removal of vegetation was wrong, then the wrecking of rock is also wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right, even in this self centred, I can do what I want, when I want to, and who cares about how it affects others society of ours.

So I return to my theme. Winter climbs will be done. Some of them will cause damage, some of that damage will be in routes in the grey area. How can we develop a workable ethic based around minimising the damage to routes and crags which are at risk of damage?

Franco, any useful input that could take this further?

Anybody else?

Frith

In reply to greenroom:

"Springbank could easily change it beyond recognition for summer climbers"

I'm pretty sure you could recognise spring bank, with a few scratches on it. I genuinely don't see what the big deal is with the odd crampon scratch. Like this article points out, they actually help plants grow and only change a summer climb aesthetically.

In reply to greenroom:

PS. The damage that has been done by summer climbing isn't irreversible. If you left Springbank for 20 years, the grass would return. So which ever path you choose- summer or winter- you are lessening the other climbers' enjoyment. Please don't approach this like you 'have a god given right to rock climb on gimmer'.... Although, to be honest, I think we all have a god-given right to climb on it in summer and winter.

In reply to Franco Cookson: For myself and I'm sure many others the aesthetic is a big part of what I love about rock climbing in this country. For yourself it is clearly less so.
In his article on here last winter Steve Ashworth said ""if in summer you are distracted by a few scratches, then you have missed the point." Well I would counter that "the point" is a very individual thing and that for many of us he is missing the point.

Different people climb for different reasons, a lot more people are going to climb these routes and be dissappointed about the increasingly ugly state of them in summer than are going to get the enjoyment out of scratching them up.

This seems to be a case of aesthetes vs. athletes but there has to be some kind of compromise achievable.

And we'll give you a shout when Gimmer's in 'acceptable' winter nick

In reply to thegoatstroker:

I agreed with much that you wrote until this "aesthetes vs. athletes". What a load of pig swill. Have you ever been mixed climbing on the classic crags in the lakes? I hate the idea of being an athlete; and the days out winter climbing are as far away from the world and the closest to the climbing gods as you can get in the UK.

Like I've said before, I whole heartedly contest the 'numbers' argument. There are far more people who go walking than climbing, so should we stop climbing on the high fells, because it makes walkers feel like they're in a less extreme location?

It would upset me if we banned winter climbing at somewhere like Gimmer, as it would leave a whole crag personality unexplored. For me climbing is all about getting to know different crags and lines at different times of the year and it can be pretty spiritual. So no, it isn't about the athletics, it's about the interaction between your's and the crag's soul.

In reply to Franco Cookson: I think you may have confused aestheticism and asceticism. However athletes vs. aesthetes may be a bit glib. As for banning winter climbing at Gimmer, well it is the numbers which prevent this from being necessary i.e. the number of days it is ever in winter nick are so small as to preclude significant damage.

I'm not sure where you're coming from on the walkers/climbers point. I don't think that most people go walking in the mountains because they want to be somewhere extreme, they go because they want to be somewhere beautiful and awe inspiring and impressive, to feel dwarfed by nature and to leave behind the ordinary. Would seeing people climbing spoil this?
As a walker if you want the mountains to yourself you don't go up Helvellyn on Easter weekend and perhaps there is a compromise to be drawn on this basis.
I suppose if you want to go and experience classic mountain VDiffs in an unspoiled state (and polished is not spoiled in the same way as badly scratched) then maybe nowadays you'd avoid Bowfell Buttress. Maybe some routes have to be "let go"?
However that needs to be agreed by consensus as to which are fair game and which should be left unscratched.
As I have said before, it is routes getting trashed by people who would not care about those routes in summer which i find unfair. I do beleive that if the Springbanks and Saxons of the Lakes cliffs were getting wrecked then more winter climbers would think twice.
I hope something like the suggestion in the new Welsh Winter Guide can be come up with for the Lakes and people can make compromises on both sides.
All the best
Harry

In reply to Franco Cookson: Hi Franco. Spoke to Martin Kocsis about covering the event for the BMC a couple of weeks ago, so there will be a film available afterwards. Dom

In reply to Land and Sky Media:

Capital. Thanks Give Martin a cuddle from me.

In reply to UKC Articles:

not sure if it's been linked but check this out for what Dave Birkett really thinks of Lakes winter effics:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNrdI1nUPmM&feature=channel_video_title

In reply to Morgan Woods: excellent

In reply to thegoatstroker:

There is nothing worse than being on a mountain route in summer and seeing hold polish, and gear placement erosion everywhere due to sheer numbers passing through. The tell tale sign of the presense of man is everywhere telling you that you are not in an unspoiled area. However in winter everything snow, ice, hoar and rime covered. When you are up some gully or on a buttress you have a much greater feeling of wilderness, being where man has never been or should never be.

For myself and I'm sure many others the aesthetic is a big part of what I love about winter climbing in this country. For yourself it is clearly less so.

In reply to UKC Articles:
Last night the Winter Ethics Debate was packed to standing and huddling room only and included a who's who of lakeland climbers from past through present. Chaired by Nick Colton it opened with 4 diverse presentations from Max Biden, Simon Webb, Dave Birkett,and Stephen Ashworth.
There followed the lively audience Q & A (seems posh term for it as there were Q's and A's from every corner of the room and across the room). It was lively, it was fun, it was at times reassuring and at others concerning. Pretty much all views were articulated and applauded or deplored simultaneously.

We filmed and audio recorded it.
This will be posted shortly on the BMC website.
It will be edited, (it 2.5hours and we were running between 3 and 4 cameras (that's 4 feature films worth).
The filming was done by ReelTime Adventure along with Justin Tracy, at zero invoice for the climbing community at large. Should anybody want full unedited versions please get in touch by personal Message.

In reply to simondgee:
Thanks, i'm keen to see the film once it is up.
James e (from the far North of Scotland)

In reply to simondgee:

Whack it on Vimeo Simon.

In reply to simondgee: Short clip here until Simon's film is ready:

youtube.com/watch?v=YG7IiUh7PiE&

By the way, I feel that it was clear that the feeling of the meeting was that:

People were largely in favour of the FRCC taking a stance.

There was considerable concern about the potential damage to rare plants casued by climbing in poor conditions.

The large majority did not care whether routes were done in one day or two.

There was no clear mandate for "banning" winter climbing on certain crags, or buttresses.

But there was strong feeling that mixed winter climbing of harder grade climbs might cause damage to crucial holds or nut placements which would substantially alter the grade and/or nature of the summer climb.

I would be inteested to hear from anyone who has anything to add to that or disagrees.

In reply to UKC Articles: I didn't make it on the night, as i realised that Stavely is almost 2 hours and 25quid petrol away from West Cumbria.

I hope that some "Bottom lines" were said, rather than arguing aimlessly around a flawed subject, although i guess that would be fun viewing.

The bottom line as i'm sure a lot of people are realising when you try to debate the subject is realy that, "winter conditions" is just something that we have bent the meaning of to meet our desire to mess around with axes and crampons.

Winter conditions means that it makes abit of rock/mountain/whatever, easier to climb with axes and crampons than in rockshoes. I'm sorry to be basic about it, but the day that we started scratching up hoared up rock with winter kit, was the day that things became illogical, and a contrived difficulty.

I don't see it much different from pooring fairly liquid down a route and claiming the first kitchen detergent ascent.

However, its great fun and i enjoy it a lot, and we've got so far down the development of this quirky sub-discipline of winter climbing its not gonna stop. But impossible to debate (with a conclusion), ethical issues are going to arise, due to the fundamental problem of its lack of black and whiteness (!), and contrived nature.

Will

In reply to Will Sim:

How's it contrived if it's the easiest way to climb a piece of rock at a certain time? I know you're a fan of belittling british rock, but climbing engineers in solid winter conditions is a lot easier in crampons than rock shoes.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Well i guess because you're having to wait for the two or three days (or even less) in a year when you could argue that's the case? amongst other reasons.

I have a feeling your latter comment was just abit of a Franco the troublemaker impulse which you'lkl shake off any year now .

Will

In reply to Will Sim: All climbing is contrived, there's nearly always an easier way up, easier to top rope it, easier to get the lift to the top, etc. But so what, it's brilliant.

In reply to Calum Nicoll: Ah, the guru of winter ethics speaks!

In reply to Stephen Reid:


I'm not sure I get this? In all the UK I can only think of the Needle as a winter route done with a bivvy, so do you mean trying it one day, abbing off and coming back the next day leaving ropes in or something?

In reply to TobyA:

I think that is a reference to Dave Birkett's Never Ever Say Never VIII 8 on Scafell that was done over two days.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=51628

There were rumours that it wouldn't make the guidebook as it wasn't done-in-a-day!

In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC: OK, thanks Mick. Makes sense. Actually the abbing in seems more of a debatable point to me than two days but its not really that important.

In reply to simondgee: Is it online yet? M

In reply to Martin Davies (KCLMC):
No, I had to go and get Stephen Ashworth's slides from his presentation today. Much of edit done...barring this. Expect to post Monday but prob. Tuesday.Will post link when it is? Send coffee and cakes.

In reply to TobyA:

Precisely. It applies to two Lakeland winter routes so far, Never Say Never and CB.

In reply to simondgee: Any progress? Really keen to see it! Cheers, M