UKC

Whilst on nights at work i've been doing a bit of a boring search for climbs on here. Having read a few peoples comments on the rat race, gogarth, it seems as though they would give it E2 or soft E3.

Now i've done quite a bit at gogarth, 94 individual routes, and quite a lot of the E3's. I done the route with a mate who has also done a load of tricky routes at gogarth, and I felt it to be a real adventure and fully workth the E3 grade. The crux is steep and pumpy, with good gear, and the chimney pitch is serious.

Was I having a bad day or is there a heap of sandbaggers on here?

centurion05

In reply to centurion05:

I agree, I found the chimney pitch of Rat Race terrifying. I could have been having a bad day but I spoke to one Gogarth luminary who also said it was one of the most terrifying pitches he'd done there.

In reply to centurion05: I am with you, its good value ...in fact I cant remember any of the E3's in that part of town being cheap.

I was years ago mind, Might have to go back and do it again next summer.

In reply to centurion05:

Only done one Gogarth E3 but think my opinion still counts... I thought it was well worth E3. Didn't find the chimney too off putting once I got going but the crux was steep, pumpy and required a bit of confidence to press on.

In reply to gforce: I did it this year, Fell off due to grease but I too thought it was full on E3 and definitely not any easier.
Thankfully I didn't lead the Chimeny!

In reply to Dangerous Dave:

Definitely E3. But, as with all sea cliffs, conditions are everything. Gogarth can get really soapy - just try the first pitch of T Rex on one of those days.

In reply to centurion05: This is one of those routes that's high on my list (for next year). I was really hoping someone would say "I don't know what all the fuss is about that chimney pitch, it's Vdiff".

So I'm doing that route until I find a volunteer for the chimney. Happy to do the 'crux' though.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

I'll do the chimney pitch if you like!

The time i done it I opted for the chimney pitch, my mate lead the first and tried to lead the second in one pitch, he ended up getting lost and tried to climb the crux of ordinary route, the sea was rough and I couldn't be heard. After a great effort, he fell off. After falling off he saw the way it went! He pulled back on and tried the crux but by this point was tired, a few more falls and he resorted to the positron belay. I seconded the first pitch and got the joy of the crux with pre-placed gear. I built the belay out of a load of average kit and brought owain up. 'It'll just be easier if you lead the chimney now, rather than trying to swap the belay!!!' Owain lead off back and footing the way up before pulling over lip, and pulling off a large block. i seconded the pitch with a small bag on my back and found it very tricky. Two further pitches and a lovely top pitch.

6 pitches of awesome climbing on the main cliff at E3, does it get any better???

Centurion05

In reply to centurion05: Sounds like a memorable day (and reads a bit like Hard Rock)! I might take you up on that offer in the summer...I want to get stuck into E3 on Main Cliff and tick all the biggies by the end of the season if I can.

In reply to centurion05: This is the only climb that I have been 'bombed off' by gulls, halfway up the first pitch. I don't think it's effected by the bird ban but it was over 20yrs ago. Reading the above comments I'm glad we didn't get any further!

In reply to centurion05:

It was always given standard E3 when I did it back in the day. Has anything changed?

In reply to centurion05:
Well I've done several E3's at Gogarth, but i've not managed the crux of Rat Race clean in 2 attempts so I don't think it's a soft touch. Having said that the crux was wet on both occasions i'm sure.
Also, at 6'5" the chimney pitch is a nightmare just to second - definitely a short persons pitch.

NB. In June 1990 I rested my brand new guidebook on a very small ledge at the top of the chimney pitch and it slipped and fell 2-3ft down a guidebook sized slot at the back of the ledge - I was gutted at the time and refused to replace it for years. Anyway when I did it again in 2008 it wasn't there so I reckon some wily climber managed to extract it (or the weather eroded it away completely).

In reply to Jon Stewart:

>I was really hoping someone would say "I don't know what all the fuss is about that chimney pitch, it's Vdiff".

If it helps, it looked about V Diff to me. Before my partner failed miserably and declared we'd go round the side after all, that is.

jcm

In reply to centurion05:
This was my first pitch on the main cliff, so I'd asked Kevin for a gentle introduction(!) I led the 5c pitch and had to rest at the crux overlap. Like Dave R, it was damp at the overlap when I did it. Kevin led the chimney, which I found a little technically easier, but far more scarey - I seem to recall making a comment about "digestive biscuit holds" on reaching the top. Of course it was a great day out, very character building.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Probably not V Diff but after leading the chimney pitch in 1978 and again this year, I reckon that if it was a single pitch Grit route it would be standard HVS ( and ** ). Rick ( 6 ft ish )

In reply to Rick Graham: Thanks Rick. It's quite often helpful to compare stuff to grit to talk yourself into them. I reckon The Strand is like a couple of (soft) grit HVSs strung together, and Branflake is definitely HVS.

The only problem is, I avoid grit chimneys like the plague. My preferred option is for someone else to lead it!

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Right, you must stop there, there is no way, at all, that you can compare gogarth with grit pish. It just doesn't compare.

centurion05

In reply to Rick Graham:
Agreed if it was a single pitch grit route it would be around HVS. That's because you wouldn't be worried about holds breaking off and gear ripping....but this is one of the more character building bits of Gogarth...

Paul

In reply to Jon Stewart:

What pish!!

Why is it that folk compare everything to Grit?
Its short safe and not that exciting!
Admittedly I haven't done loads on grit but what I have done never felt hard for the grade and certainly wasn't better than many other routes I have done.

Grit is not the be all and end all. Folks that think it is should get out more!

In reply to Dangerous Dave:

Tend to agree except that it's not very safe! However ' It's like 2 on grit routes on top of each other' isn't much help because after your first few minutes completing your first grit route you can wander around, have a rest, lie down etc before doing your next one!

In reply to Dangerous Dave: The reason people from Sheffield compare everything to grit is because that's what they climb as 'bread and butter'.

In summer, I'd much rather be having an adventure on Gogarth than on some little outcrop; there is no implication by comparing the difficulty of other stuff to grit routes that they're comparable in terms of experience. But at Gogarth particularly, stuff is graded for grip, seriousness, slime etc, and often the physical difficulty of the climbing is not great as great as the grade suggests. I have come across the exceptions to this rule on Main Cliff though...

Not all grit routes are hard for the grade by any means, loads are piss. However, HVS grit cracks are f^cking nails compared to pretty much anywhere except Cornish granite. So for people who climb a lot of grit (and people who climb grit tend to climb it a lot as it's easy to get to in the evenings and you can get a few routes done several times a week), it's a good way to talk yourself into something which seems hard (top of your grade on a big serious cliff).

I don't get why everyone's so touchy/defensive whenever grit is used as a benchmark - it's not because it's the be all and end all of climbing - that's grit highballs, not routes - it's because it's very popular and it's purely about technical difficulty and boldness, since there is no adventure element. Makes it an excellent benchmark for technical difficulty and boldness.

In reply to Bulls Crack:

That's why it's slightly more difficult. Great route though, fantastic setting and a far more memorable experience than climbing something in a grit quarry twice.

In reply to centurion05:

It definitely felt disapointing qualitatively to me. I also remember thinking it was a bit of a path but I guess I was strong in those days.
We had just done the 7th free ascent of Barbarossa with one fall.
Can't recall the chimney at all except that neither Chris nor I wanted it!

In reply to Christheclimber:

Back in what day?
E2 in Alec Sharp's guide.

In reply to centurion05:

What is baffling to me is the UKC descriptions for things like Rat Race (Mild for the grade) and The Big Groove (Low in the grade. Even without the pegs) at Gogarth.

They're both full on at E3 and they make The Moon look about HVS.

I wrote to Rich Kirby (the crag mod) after doing Big Groove this year, urging him to change the description - no response. At the start of P2, the route involves a tenuous & gearless traverse rightwards above a leg breaking ledge. The rest of the route is no pushover after that either.

The description for Rat Race also says 2 pitches!

In reply to jonny2vests:

The Moon is NOT E3. It is a total path. Astral Stroll is harder but less exposed.
Big Groove used to be a giveaway but without the pegs it will be pretty serious.

In reply to Ian Jones:

You're preaching to the converted.

In reply to Ian Jones:

Exactly! Two of the best routes I've ever done, almost identical and as you say Astral Stroll is probably harder.

In reply to jonny2vests:

i agree, It didn't help that when i first tried the big groove, i had the ground up NWR guide which put it the incorrect distance from the black pinnacle. I flailed around on the first pitch getting more and more frustrated. My mate tried to go up and continued in the same trend as myself. We retreated up nightride. I've since been back and thought it good for the grade.

i've submitted a request to rich kirby about the description, hopefully he'll get it changed.

reply to Ian Jones - I'm sure if you'd just repeated Barbarossa, rat race would seem easy. Bit of a pointless comment.


Centurion05

In reply to centurion05:

I had pretty much exactly the same experience. I went back with my old Gogarth guide and things were a lot clearer.


Nice one.


Also agree.

In reply to jonny2vests:

Strange, as the old (1990) Gogarth guide contains the same mistake (6m from the square block) as the first edition of NWR.

The second edition of NWR and Gogarth North have the correct (12m) distance.

In reply to Simon Panton:


Maybe its because everyone knew the distances in meters in the old CC guide were to cock and made allowances accordingly (although in my experience they usually over estimated distances in meteres rather than underestimated).

In reply to the OP:

I think the thing is there are better and more solid E3s in Gogarth so there's no real need to go on Rat Race if you don't fancy it.

In reply to centurion05:

Whilst searching through my diary for an entry for The Boldest (for the 'residual buzz' thread), I came across this entry which surprised me, but might be useful:

6 Sept 80
(... ) Rat Race XS - disappointing, and Syringe XS - brilliant.

In reply to Tyler:

The Alec Sharp guide from 1978 has the distance as 20 feet (i.e. 6m) too - it's an old error which was only spotted by Simon Marsh when he was researching the Main Cliff script for Gogarth North.

In reply to Simon Panton:

Maybe I'm mistaken and we were using Gogarth North. Yes, I think thats right.

I'm afraid I found the GN description for The Big Groove much more confusing than the 90s Gogarth guide. So much so that I binned doing the route first time round and escaped up Pentathol which also had some sort of typo in the description.

Don't get me wrong though, overall I think the guides are fantastic and do justice to such an important place.

In reply to jon:

That seems about right to me!
Did Syringe this year and found it extremely "memorable" - indeed so memorable that I certainly won't ever be in a rush to refresh my memory of it..... made Positron seem straightforward and friendly.

In reply to Jon Stewart: Interesting but... Branflake definiely is E2 (well, as definite as these things ever are).

In reply to Ian Jones: I led top pitch of The Moon earlier this year as a finish to The Cow. Now, I'm trying to be really objective in this but I thought it wasn't totally innocent and might be E3 in itself (certainly in the context of Kalahari being E3): some dubious rock, questionable fixed gear (most of it totally back-upable from memory) and a bit of space stepping.

This was though as dusk approached on a cold day and I'm not a seasoned Gogarth campaigner.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Really? That surprises me. But it was a good route though?

In reply to jon:

Yes, very good. But I thought both pitches were very awkward, strenuous 6a. And the first pitch was rather bold and crumbly above the crux (very glad it wasn't my lead!) In contrast, Positron seemd like 3 pitches of solid E3, albeit a bit pumpy and intimidating on the main pitch. Also very good of course.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I seem to remember a time when Positron was E4... could this be right? I also remember it got more ascents the day after Smiler beamed his way into the Padarn one evening and announced he'd done it, than ever before!

In reply to jon:

It's been E5 in every guidebook it's been in (well HXS in the '75 guiide but wasn't there an index in the back?), certainly in the 1980 supplement

In reply to Tyler:

Ah, memory probably fried.

In reply to Robert Durran:
I don't climb E5, but as i've done Syringe clean you've made Positron seem within range. Interesting...

I did think Syringe was quite cruxy - doesn't it get E4 now (or is that the Needle)?

In reply to Dave Rumney:

Yes, we were relieved after doing it to find it has been upgraded to E4!
Of course the fact that Positron seemed more straightforward to me may well say more about me than the route; I'm rubbish at weird awkwardness, but ok on sustained pumpiness.

In reply to Robert Durran:

OK, thanks for the insight.
don't worry, i'm not going to jump on it just because someone I don't know says its E3, but you have got me thinking that maybe I should make further enquiries with people I know who've done it.

Cheers

In reply to Ian Jones:

Back in the day 1980.
There were no E grades in the Alec Sharp guidebook!
In my first Guide by Peter Crewe (1969) it is given Extremely Severe
In my Alec Sharpe Guide (1977) it is also given Extremely severe.
In my third Edited by Geoff MIlburn (1990) it is given E3

In reply to Ian Jones:

Apologies Ian, I've just found my old diary and yes I recorded it as E2 5c in May 1980 not E3 as I stated earlier.

The old memory must have be playing up!

In reply to jonny2vests:


Had a route description, did you? Yoof of today! First visit to the main cliff, mid 70s. Asked my mate, "What we doing then?" "A big groove... in the middle of the crag." No guidebook. No beta. And that was, er, that, really.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:

...unwittingly making the first ascent of The Alien!

Don't believe all the b******s you read on UKC Dave. Positron is a different ball game to Syringe. The former is a low in the grade E5, on a good day with dry conditions. Syringe is overgraded in the latest guide. Solid E3.... on a good day in dry conditions.
PS Where's my silver crutch?!

In reply to pete johnson:

As I said earlier, opinions will vary depending on what an individual is better at. Presumably there was a concensus to upgrade Syringe to E4 (and equally a concensus that Positron is worth bottom end E5). I can honestly say that no pitch on Positron felt harder than top end E3 to me (I found the first pitch the toughest). In contrast, the first pitch of Syringe seemed awkward, strenuous, unobvious and insecure at the crux, then bold and crumbly above (I seconded it and would almost certainly have failed to lead it).

In reply to centurion05: Well, I have done it twice. One time it felt like it fully deserved E3, even though I think it was only graded XS in the old guide, then the other time I wondered what all the fuss was about, E2 for sure. So, like so many of our routes, you can't read too much into the grade on the day. There are too many other factors to consider, which is what makes Gogarth so special.

In reply to Christheclimber:

The Alec Sharp 77 guide does have E grades: go to the numerical pitch grading list, page 113 onwards.

Rat Race is given E2 (ha!), as is Camel (ha,ha!) and Syringe (ha, ha, ha!!!)

In reply to centurion05:
I had always thought there had been a rockfall around the chimney area which had reduced the protection and increased the grade from E2 to E3.

Certainly in the early 80's when I did this the chimney pitch was about 5a, whereas now you hear a few horror stories about there being no pro and it all being a bit exciting.

The route desciption in the Alec Sharp guide was very inspiring on the 5c pitch - something about traversing until you can stand in balance.

In reply to Simon Panton:

Does the fact rhat you give 3 ha's to Syringe but only 2 to Camel imply that you think Stringe is harder? Someone once told me a long time ago to do Camel and that if I got up it then Positron should hold no fears. I still havn't done Camel but it certainly looks a bit of a nightmare....

In reply to Simon Panton:

Well, in Sharp's defence, it was early days for E grades. You can't expect to get things spot on, immediately. Having said that, somehow I always got the impression he wasn't above a bit of sandbagging. (I may be wrong and, if so, apologies.)

Mick

In reply to Robert Durran: I suppose I've given the impression that each 'ha!' represents a +1 on the '77' E grade - actually, maybe that is right!

In my opinion (and note others will feel differently) both Syringe and Camel are tough leads. The former has has some hard physical sections and a rather spooky section (I recall a mate of mine who was dancing up E5s at the time spent about three hours leading the first pitch); the latter is just a good old fashioned fight, good gear, but quite brutal.

In reply to Mick Ward:

To be fair Alec Sharp wasn't far off on at least half of the routes. My post is more directed at those further up the thread spinning the line that because something was originally given a particular E grade it must still be true today - why would it when routes change, key holds break off, in situ gear deteriorates, modern gear improves, general fitness standards change, some routes with a big aura become trade routes etc...

I'm sure in 30 years time people will be ridiculing the grades in the Gogarth North first edition.

In reply to Simon Panton:

Couldn't agree more; things change. I've always felt that first ascents, particularly if they involve a lot of dubious rock, stress, etc, can bear little relation to the well-trodden paths they may subsequently become.

Didn't Crew make this point with 'Central Park', originally a considerable undertaking, which settled down to a reasonable grade?

Grades are grades. They're best estimates. Things change. All I would ask of any guidebook writer is that they do the best they can at the time.

And I somehow think you pass this test!

Mick

In reply to pete johnson:

LOL, cheers Pete, oh well.
Kev's got your well deserved award!!

Maybe I need something similar to "The Road to the Nose"
- The Path to Positron anyone?

In reply to Dave Rumney:

That nasty slippery one which goes down under the Upper Tier..... oh I see....

How about Bubbly Situation Blues - I would have though that would be a good E4 pump test to check readiness for Positron!

In reply to Simon Panton:

Thanks for reminding me.