UKC

Training season is upon us once again and having failed to achieve much of merit this year (various reasons: motivation, distraction etc etc) I've started to think about training.

Previous significant gains have seemed to come from improved fitness and stamina, not so much getting stronger or better, simply being in better shape when I arrive at the crux/top. Being injury prone (creakyoldmiserygutssyndrome) it strikes me this is probably still the most sensible approach if I'm to stand a good chance of ending the winter better than I started it. I'm happy to boulder but with the emphasis on ~V3/4 volume.

If I'm aiming for high F7s RP* on uk rock can I still get away with this soft approach to training, simply taking whatever incidental strength gains come with it?

*maybe a 2-3 grade increase on this year (didn't actually tick much this year hence the handwavyness)

I'm open to ideas. What worked for you?
jk

In reply to jkarran:

I'm in a similar situation as you at the moment. My tactics over the winter are to focus on training power, as that appears to be becoming the dominant weakness in my armoury. Stamina has never been a real issue for me, but now that I'm aiming for the high 7's too, it's evident that I can no longer "finesse" my way up routes, as is often possible in the low/mid 7's. Time to start training and climbing hard, so for that, the obvious solution was to focus on bouldering more than in the past.

I'm not positive that this will work but I reckon that if I put in the work over the next 3-4 months, then come the spring I should be fitter and stronger than previous years and in a better position to RP the routes at 7c/+ and upwards. Time will tell.

Hopefully shark et al will contribute ot this thread as I'd be interested in his thoughts on the subject.

In reply to jkarran: It should work.

This year I've mainly worked out routes (repointing and onsighting) and done very little "training" or bouldering. When I was away in El Chorro I managed to sneak my way up a 7c 3rd RP and 7b onsight (both a new lifetime bests).

I've always been a reasonable boulderer (V8ish), but since I knackered my knee 1.5 years ago, I've done very little.

The last few weeks I've started a bit of a bouldering power/strength phase and am feeling surprisingly strong for the lack of bouldering. Probably about the V6/Font7A mark. Stuggling on proper steep ground though.

So, I think with all that waffle I was trying to say: you should be able to gain strength by just doing routes, It's most likely that it'll transfer best to whatever angle you're climbing on and it'll happen more slowly than if you bouldering.

So, slow and steady, rather than fast and broken!

In reply to jkarran:

Looking at the same kind of grades as you, I'm trying some power endurance training. There's some good articles on the Depot's website at the moment (http://www.theclimbingdepot.co.uk/blogs) which go through the various kinds of strength and how to train them.

I'm working on the basis that if I can do multiple crux sections of english 6a moves, then some good ticks should present themselves next year.

It goes a bit like this: Find a boulder problem of a reasonable length, maybe 8-12 moves, at about 75% of your onsight limit. Then do 5 or 6 repetitions with a 30-45sec rest. The first time you do the problem it will feel okay, but not absolutely straightforward. Then you gradually improve technique as your power falls away. The last repetition should be an absolute battle in terms of strength but you can get through it because you know how to do the moves.

Then have a 8-10 minute break so it feels as though you've totally recovered. The whole session should cover 5 or 6 problems and take 1hr30 to 2hrs.

It also works well with a training partner as you substitute the rest between repetitions with your partner's climbing time.

Last time I did this system properly - i.e. twice a week for 10 weeks and a rest day of easy route climbing in between - I managed to get into the 7b/b+ range and felt as though both technique under pressure and stamina had improved significantly.

Jim

In reply to Fultonius: Also, I've heard a few times that V5 will get you up a lot of 8as, but V3/V4 might be more around the 7c mark?

However, being able to boulder V4 while very fit and with good technique might see you getting towards the 8s.

In reply to Fultonius:

Go to the right place and V2 strength will get you up the 8s if you can hang on forever (and have the time/mental fortitude to siege a 50m route).

Not the UK though - v5 obligatory for nearly all high 7s imo. I also reckon there are plenty 7c's in the UK with v7 or harder cruxes. At least that's my excuse for failing on them...

In reply to jkarran:

Seems I'm not the only one who's had a similar thought though it's clearly not the only path.

My bouldering is *very* average, even when I was totally focused on it for a year or two progress was slow and distinctly unspectacular. V6 is a really big tick for me, I get maybe a couple a year but I've yet to come across a crux on the (admittedly few and all <=7c) UK limestone routes I've tried that I can't figure out in a handful of goes (V4?).

I keep hearing there are big stamina are 8s at V3/2/1<end exaggeration wherever you want> but we don't have them here in Yorkshire and I don't have anything like the route fitness to bag one in a week long trip to France. Realistically I need to focus on what I have available, thankfully it's 15-25m of superb steeply leaning Yorkshire limestone. Do I really need to get stronger? Please say it's not so

jk

In reply to jkarran:

It's not so...

Except it is, go get stronger!

In reply to catt:

Really? It's *so* much easier to get fit and I'll have to fix all my niggly injuries if I'm going to get strong

jk

In reply to jkarran:
>

If you can do the odd V6 you're theoretically strong enough for plenty of classic Yorkshire 7c / +s

Here's a few classics with my guesses at V grades for the hardest moves(probably rubbish since I don't boulder outside generally)

New Dawn 7c, V5 for the bottom then pumpy with nothing harder than V2/3
Free and Easy 7c, V3/4
Tremelo, 7c, V4
Mescalitio 7c+, V4
Herbie 7c+, V4
L'Obsession, 7c+ V5/6
Dominatrix 7c, V3
The Ashes 7c+, V3/V4

In reply to jkarran:

I'm hoping to break into 7c by the end of next year (need to do a few 7b+ first!) but am approaching it from the opposite ability spectrum to you (reasonable bouldering strength, pathetic stamina).

I understand the injury risks associated with a strength training plan, falling victim to them plenty of times myself. Have you thought of adding in separate non-climbing related weights and stuff, antagonist exercises for shoulders, elbows (wrist curls) etc? could provide a good base for hard bouldering.

Everyone loves playing to their strengths (I’ve not done a route above 7a+ that is more than 11m long!) but just think how easy those V3/V4 moves will feel when you can crank out V8s.

In reply to Ian Patterson:

Cheers Ian, the only one of those I've tried is Dominatrix and I'd say you're not far out (though perhaps a little on the mean side Looks like there is hope, V3/4 at least isn't too intimidating in isolation.

In reply to Eagle River:

It would be fantastic to have that kind of strength but I've somehow never found it even when I was bouldering a lot back in the Isle of Man. I've gone through phases of additional exercise/stretching but my attention span isn't great. Usually it's in reaction to an injury or problem rather than proactively, perhaps as a result my enthusiasm is intense at first and wanes rapidly once the results begin to show (or time heals the injury!). I do have the kit and a mate with similar goals (different training needs!) I could rope in for some friendly competition. Might be worth a shot!

In reply to jkarran:

I know what you mean, I always do that sort of exercise in rehab rather than as a rule. However, the advantage of having not done it before means there should be room for improvement by doing it now. Hopefully that improvement will manifest itself as a resistance to injury enabling a longer period of pulling hard to get stronger!

What is usually stopping you bouldering harder? I'm guessing it's not technique (could be steepness-specific technique perhaps?), is it ability to hold on to small holds (fingerboarding could help), is it an inability to lock off statically on holds (pull up variations, frenchies etc could help), is it a problem with moving and latching holds dynamically?, keeping your feet on the wall when on steep ground? (core exercises?)

Personally moving from V4-V6/7 pretty much just involved bouldering on steep boards and trying as had as possible every session but more targeted work leave you less susceptible to injury?

lots of questions!

In reply to jkarran:

I guess I'm simlar to you in what I would like to redpoint next year. One thing I have noticed when climbing with my usual partners is that, irrespective of the grades we climb, it usually takes the same length of time to work the moves out on our respective routes.

However, the time taken to then redpoint for me is always significantly more. maybe 4-5 redpoints to their 1-2 redpoints.

For me its alwyas a problem with this so called power endurance. I generally only boulder about v4, but I often fall off things mid crux sequence (Peak limestone), but without any rest at all can then finish the sequence and usually the route no problem.

Reps of 1-3-5 on the capmus board up and down to failure with my feet on is helping. And it feels structured as well. Not too bad on the elbows either or fingers.

Regards
mark

In reply to jkarran: I haven't done much in Yorkshire (did have a good w/e there this year though) but I guess there's a fair similarity in terms of grading between North Wales, where I mainly climb, and Yorkshire. There's nothing really long here however so can't comment on that end of things.

There seems to be quite a few cruxy 7b+s around here and I'd say V4/5 wasn't exceptional for these and that's in the space of a few moves so quite hard! Also, it's all very well being able to boulder x but x will feel significantly harder after 10M or whatever of climbing. Ideally therefore I reckon you want a bit in hand on the route. Having said all that, there's longer and less cruxy stuff around so maybe worth aiming for this?

From the few 7s I've done in Yorkshire I would have thought:

- doing lots of bouldering around the V4 mark i.e. make it your aim to tick one or two of these every session you go out;
- working towards something around V7? as a multi-session project; and
- lapping a 6b - 6c route (indoors as they're typically more sustained) 4 times once or twice a week for a month or 2 (increasing grade as you gain stamina)

would help. Mind you, this is based on no expertise whatsoever, but I guess better fitness and a bit more strength are what you're after so that lot could work.

This all makes me think of my own plans for Yorkshire action this winter / next year - really looking forward to long weekends on non-tidal stuff that I can't do!

In reply to Fraser:> I'm not positive that this will work but I reckon that if I put in the work over the next 3-4 months, then come the spring I should be fitter and stronger than previous years and in a better position to RP the routes at 7c/+ and upwards. Time will tell.


Just for you http://27crags.com/climbers/shark/blog/how-to-put-a-plan-together

Invoice is in the post

In reply to jkarran:

I know what worked well for me this year but I'm not sure it's generally applicable (losing some reasonable amounts of weight, finishing exams so having effectively 2 months more a year to devote to climbing, and doing more sport during that climbing time instead of dabbling whilst mainly doing trad, if you're asking).

My one thought though is that if you think you're too creaky to push hard on your max "short boulder" grade, how about trying to train extending that level of difficulty out for a few moves more instead - really work on the "powering out" sort of region which I think a lot of UK stuff seems to fall into, say 7-15 moves or whatever? Might be strengthy enough to be useful whilst leaving each move just about non intense enough to minimise the injury potential.

Just a thought really...

In reply to Ian Patterson:

Bl**dy hell Ian?!

I'd rate myself at pushing V5, but the cruxes on those are right at my limit. Mind you, I think you've been very consistent across the routes.

New dawn, not V2 in the top bit surely?

Free and easy? I did the lower bit with a one fingertip mono move, V3? ouch.

Tremelo? I can latch the crux 1/10 times, V4 really?

Herbie V4? harsh

Dominatrix? maybe, yes V3, still a tricky bit in the middle there.

--

in relation to the OP - for the top high 7's I'd reckon you'd need to be looking at indoor-wall V5/6, maybe outdoor V4. For 7b/7b+ level, i.e. me, you might be looking more at indoor level V4.

In reply to richardh:

I'm not trying to be harsh, I always struggle to assign bouldering grades to routes. My starting point is that New Dawn start is V5 (and bloody hard) - non of the routes mentioned have sequences as hard as this except L'Obsession and maybe Tremelo (though I find this easier than ND start).

No more than V3 certainly, pumpy moves but on big holds.

I didn't think the crux was too bad but did have a bit of a sneaky sequence I think.

See above.

Again the crux is quite tough but not as hard as New Dawn start if you're tall, maybe V5 for the short I guess.


I would say outdoor V5 for high 7's though could maybe manage a bit lower if very fit and picked routes, indoor grades depend too much on the wall.

In reply to Ian Patterson:

Not especially for Ian, but... If V3, 4 or 5 is all you need for many french 8a's, why are so many strong boulderers not ticking the high sport grades? I realise stamina and actually getting on the routes with vigour might be part of the picture but from where I stand, it still strikes me as a low crux grade for the 8's. Obviously, if it was 3-4 short V4's in a row then would it not be a sustained/highball V5 equivalent?

Anyway, I am hoping that blindly climbing away in the low 7's and more importantly trying to belive I am good enough to ascent the harder routes without failure will carry me into the 7c range this comming year.

Good luck JK, and all the others witth aspirations. You just gotta tie in!

In reply to jkarran:

I guess in theory that if you had a lot of time and a very positive mental attitude then a maximum bouldering grade (i.e. that is your hardest possible) would get you up one of the Spanish 8as. However I do think it could take a long time as only being able to boulder v3/4 would not leave you a lot of extra power/strength when you did the crux. Yes some of them may not have anything harder than v2/3 but it certainly doesn't feel like v2/3 when you are pumped!

As to Yorkshire limestone, in all honesty I think you need to be stronger to tick any of the 7c+s. Someone posted above that the Ashes is only V3/4, technicallly that could be true but it felt a lot harder than that to me! I would hazard a guess that if you could up your bouldering grade to V4/5 then a lot of the 7cs would become realistic, V5/6 would get you some selected 7c+s and if you could do V6/7 then there are a few 8as that are feasible.

Just to be clear I am not saying that the cruxes on those routes are that grade, just that in my opinion being able to boulder that grade would give you just enough spare power/strength on the cruxes to make them realistic propositions. Admittedly having just looked at it again, if your absolute max was V5/6 then there are quite a few Yorkshire 7c+s that would be desperate!!

So in answer to your question earlier, I reckon that if you are generally a fit climber then it is probably best to put a bit more effort into strength training. A slow and progressive build up on a fingerboard would be good, plus some bouldering on a steep board once a week.

Good luck Dave

In reply to Kevster:
>
If you can boulder V8 then you are easily strong enough for 7c / 8a. My hardest boulder problems ever are V7 outdoors though it's possible that I may have climbed V8 indoors at Broughton, I'm not at that sort of strength this year and still managed a few 7c's and one 7c+.

It sometimes seems that you get 2 sorts of sport climbers - those who are strong who think that getting stronger is the solution to the next grade, those who are fit who think getting fitter is the answer. I guess this is often driven by the attraction of working your strengths, and in reallity the opposite approach might be better.

In reply to Ian Patterson:

I think the examples you gave are whack.

A couple of years ago I rewrote the table in Self Coached Climber as a guide to indicate the hardest moves or short section you are likely to encounter on a given sport route. Nobody felt it was much out of kilter.

It isn't totally inclusive so there will be plenty of examples of unusually cruxy short routes or with boulder problem starts or long pumper routes that fall outside either end of the range. The range is aiming to cover the majority of UK sport routes, say 9 out of 10 at any given French grade.

6a English 5a-5b
6a+ English 5b
6b English 5b-5c
6b+ English 5b-5c
6c English 5c - 6a or V1
6c+ English 5c–6a or V1-V2
7a English 6a-6a/b or V2-V3
7a+ V2-V3
7b V3-V4
7b+ V4-V5 or Font 6b+ to 6c
7c V4-V5 or Font 6b+ to 6c
7c+ Font 6c+ to 7a
8a Font 6c+ to 7a
8a+ Font 7a+ to 7b
8b Font 7b to 7b+

In reply to davo:
>I would hazard a guess that if you could up your bouldering grade to V4/5 then a lot of the 7cs would become realistic, V5/6 would get you some selected 7c+s and if you could do V6/7 then there are a few 8as that are feasible.
Sounds about right to me.

On the Ashes I genuinely don't think it has any hard moves if you're normal height - I possibly found the hardest move the one up to the eyes which is on the 'easier' part of the climbing, though I guess the move from the boss is quite hard as well. This doesn't mean I found the route easy (it's probably the second hardest I've ever done) just that the requirement is power endurance on steep rock mixed with stamina for a long route as opposed to top end strength.

In reply to shark:
Why? Do you think that the start of New Dawn is harder than V5 or the crux of Baboo is harder than V6? That's what I based my grades on so if I'm wrong on those then I'm wrong on the routes.

When I boulder I find V6 proper hard - I fail on many more than I succeed and I've done very few moves on routes that approach that sort of difficuly.

In reply to shark:

At the grades of routes I've been on (up to 7c) I'd say shark's list is pretty spot on, with of course a few outliers either side.

In reply to Ian Patterson:

Think you are right about The Ashes. Individually, if of normal height most of the moves are okay. Yeah, mostly you need the ability to recover at the eyes and then fairly decent power endurance.

My only point would be that if your top-end was V5, then the crux section on the ashes would be mightily close to what you can pull when you are fresh and stepping off the ground! It also makes working the route hard, as you would get knackered trying the moves and to be honest you might actually find getting to the eyes tricky! That move just past the boss, off the crimp would feel terrible if your max was V5!!

Shark, think your table is a reasonable reflection for UK routes.

Dave

In reply to shark:

Cheers, cheque is likewise! Will have a peek at this later.

In reply to Ian Patterson:

You need to wean yourself off V grades - its uncool. And don't use the word 'fail'. Thinking too much (longer than 30 seconds) about climbing x boulder grade to climb y sport grade is not healthy. I could go on..

In reply to shark:


Can't argue too much with that but doesn't change the fact that most of the routes I mentioned don't have really hard moves on them even for someone relatively weak like me.

I tried a couple of the font 7a (see, learning already) problems at the tor the other week after rp'ing Indecent Direct and they were desperate, much much harder than anything on the route.

In reply to jkarran: As a general observation good route climbers consistently underrate the bouldering grade difficulty of crux sections.

I don't know any upper 7 climbers who don't find V6/7a fairly straightforward.

So I think people are kinda telling you what you want to hear but I accept that Yorkshire is a foreign county and they do things differently there.

Out of pure interest, can someone tell me how Raindogs breaks down into problem/shake/rest sections? I know its famously no move harder than 6b but in modern currency?

In reply to Ian Patterson: Which ones? They're knacky and beta-responsive.

In reply to jkarran:


If you've got short V5/6 power, then I'd say no. I'm no expert, etc. etc. but.....in my non-expert opinion:

The reason you'd fail on the above type of routes is power endurance or lack there of. Even the likes of New Dawn come down to PE really as the rests are pretty much hands off. I'd stick with your bouldering volume strategy for now, then move towards training PE in the new year.

Simplest, well known(?) method for this (and what's been effective for me in the past) is the usual 25-30 move circuit with inadequate timed rest. You need to pick the difficulty so that after a handful of sessions on it, you should be able to make it round at least 4 times but fall off before 8 times. This usually equates to a circuit you'll just about manage in two halves on your first session. Ultimately, the rests in between should be more than 4 mins but less than 10 mins. You can also tweak the difficulty and/or style by changing/removing/allowing extra holds and forcing yourself to shake or climb slower, etc. as you go on. Obvioulsy, the closer in similarity it is to your project(s) the better it'll work.

Good luck

In reply to Ian Patterson:


by shark in reply to Ian Patterson:


You set yourself up for that one! Anyone who suggests boulder grades for sport routes is bound to get shot down by someone. It's hard enough to agree on boulder grades for boulder problems, never mind moves or sequences halfway up a route!

In reply to Stig:

I'm sure I posted something about this around the time I did it, when it seemed important. If you can be arsed to check my posting history it might be in there somewhere.

In reply to Stig:

Me, and plenty of others I would think. I do tend to avoid bouldery routes, partly because they miss the point of route climbing for me, but also because I often can't do them

I would try but I think I'm in enough trouble with Shark already!

In reply to Stig:


It's one long V8+
or
2 longish V7s
or
4 medium V5s
or
I'm off now

In reply to Ian Patterson:> I would try but I think I'm in enough trouble with Shark already!



Quite.

Stig. Refer to the chart above then ignore it. Ideally get a top rope on the route so you get a feel for the moves. The challenge is to do two sustained sections of about 10-12moves pulling off a semi dynamic (for most) move at the end of each section and you get an average shakeout between the two sections. Put together a plan that trains for that.

Overall the grade is...wait for it...benchmark 8a

In reply to Ian Patterson:

I defo think the crux of new dawn is harder than v5. I have never latched it once, its way harder than the crux of tremelo in my opinion. I can do the crux of tremalo no problem in isolation, but just struggle with the stamina to do it when I'm boxed.

I am short tho and am absolute max stretch when I get the undercut on ND and just cannot hold it. The more technical way up left seemed mega hard too, and this is meant to be the weak man's way!

In reply to snoop6060: There's another way for shorties, which shares the diagonal crimp and goes out right, low down. Get one of the weak girls to show you it next time.

In reply to Robertostallioni:

Haha, I may well have to do just that mate.

In reply to davo:

Might join you next year Davo... just need a little more strength in reserve first!

In reply to Richard Hession:

What, for your attempts at Overshadow

Andy F

In reply to Stig:

I know a good few. Myself included.

No, everywhere else is a foreign country compared to Yorkshire.


6c to the first bolt, 7a to the second, 7b to the third, 7c to the 4th, 8a to the belay. No individual move more than V3. Very few below V2. Good shake by the 3rd if you can get it.

Andy F

In reply to general thread:
Worth noting that there's a big difference between being strong enough to do a route and being strong enough to do a route quickly.
Also worth noting that, just like some people are strong on boulders but inexplicably weak with a rope on others are the exact opposite so their boulder grade may not really give an accurate representation of how strong they are.

In reply to abarro81: and there's those of us who are but inexplicably weak with a rope and bouldering.

Andy F

In reply to thread:

Ok, it seems that while I'm probably at the weak end of ideal I'm there or thereabouts strength wise. A little more strength probably wouldn't hurt nor would the ability to keep up the power output for longer between shakes. That 's not too intimidating a goal.

It's very hard to know where I'm at, as someone has mentioned already indoor grades are erratic at best and I haven't done much outdoor bouldering for a couple of years. My sport has been all over the place too, my recent holiday saw me totally shut down by a 6a+ (bolt to bolt, no hope of RP) and a 6b (bolt to bolt and no desire to redpoint), it also gave me my first 7b (ish) flash. Climbing is weird.

Interestingly someone up thread asked what my weakness is, what stops me bouldering harder, fingers, core, power etc? I thought about it for a good while and the simple answer is I just don't know, there just seems to be a point at which, irrespective of style I stop ticking things. Part of it has to be I'm poor at working stuff, usually I'll flash something, get it second go or spend the rest of the evening thrashing away at it. City Bloc is a good illustration, I can generally flash 90% of the grey circuit (hard?) yet I can typically only find one or two on the green circuit (vhard?) that'll yield to extensive work. Same deal at my (more erratically graded) local wall. Perhaps it's psychological, that'd be good wouldn't it </wishful thinking> Perhaps I really do need to figure that out. As nice as it'd be to simply train fitness and PE it is possible I'm just hearing what I want to hear and ignoring the real problem.

jk

In reply to jkarran:

well, there you go.

If you can do/flash 90% of citybloc greys - probably better than my ratio - you can rp 7b+! I've never done a green and mileage varies on the yellows. I think that sort-of demonstrates it's your route reading and PE that's lacking.

In reply to richardh:

LOL! Oh, is it yellow after grey? That might explain a lot. Oops, crappy memory, I've not been for a while