UKC

To take the wind out of the sails of some posters on the Roaches Management thread, I am interested to know what folk would consider to be the UK's premier crags. This could be based on any personal value such as: historical significance, popularity, accessibility, route quality, grade range, desire to return again and again etc.

Sometimes the best crags, aren't the premier venues i.e. I'd rather while a day away at Callerhues over Bowden Doors anyday, however, Bowden is undoubtedly (in my opinion) the more premier crag (if you can get 'more' premier, which I don't hink you can, but we'll allow it for this)!

I always thought you could get a good measure of someone by their album collection, so perhaps our crag choices could be used to the same effect.

In no particular order, and limited to 10:

Roaches
Almscliff
Stanage
Bowden
Gogarth (Main Cliff)
Pembroke (Huntman's Leap?)
Scafell (East Buttress)
Tremadog (Bwlch y Moch)
Bosigran
Glen Nevis (Lochaber)

hmmm, that's nowhere near right....

In reply to andi turner:
These 3 must be on any list
Malham
Kilnsey
Goredale

Andy F

In reply to andi turner: based on popularity all the southern sandstone crags win hands down

In reply to andi turner:

The premier crag of Pembroke is clearly St Govans, even though it's rubbish compared to Mother Carey's, Bosherston Head, etc.

Dinas Cromlech is the premier crag of the Pass, although Dinas Mot should probably be on the list too, given the importance of the Pass (despite it always being wet and/or crowded).

If grit can have 3 crags, the Lakes should have at least a couple. I'd add Gimmer, Langdale's biggest attraction.

Diabaig may be the premier crag of the NW highlands - not big, but so brilliant and well-loved it must be on the list. At the top.

In reply to andi turner:

Fairhead
Gogarth Main Cliff
Huntsmans Leap
Cloggy

In reply to andi turner:

Hobson Moor. Best ever.

In reply to andy farnell:

Only if that list is a list of godawful sport climbing and ridiculous hard trad venues made of polished nonsense.

My votes go to:

Fairhead
Chair Ladder
Lower Sharpnose
Lundy (it's basically one big crag)
Scafell
The Needle and associated crags on Great Gable
Ben Nevis
Carnmore
Gogarth Main Cliff
Mother Carey's

In reply to andi turner:

Mounton Valley Rocks

In reply to andi turner:
Main cliff
Wen Zawn
Red Wall
Left hand red wall
yellow wall
mousetrap zawn
easter island gully
upper tier
north stack
castell helen

thats my 10

In reply to victim of mathematics:
Malham has classic trad from VS. Goredale is as much about adventure as Sport. Some of Kilnsey's best routes have E grades. And the sport climbing is the best in the UK. Sport climbing is only godawful if you are at climbing.

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell: Kilnsey wouldn't make it into the top 100 crags in the UK.

In reply to andi turner:

Roughly From South to North:

Huntsman'e Leap
Clogwyn Du'r Arddu
Gogarth main cliff
Stanage
Malham
Scafel East Buttress
Bowden Doors
Creag an Dubh Loch
Sron Na Ciche
Dun Mingulay

In the interests of variety and Geograhical spread I have left out the at least equally worthy:

Dinas Cromlech
Carn Dearg buttress
Shelter Stone Crag
Pink Wall (Pabbay)
Far East Wall (Beinn Eighe)

If I had gone entirely on quality, then only three or so would probably have made it from South of the border.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

No. It is clearly Huntsman's.

In reply to Robert Durran:
I think there may have been some sarcasm in what Jon said. "Stoney by the sea.."

Gogarth Main Cliff
Huntsman's Leap
Malham Cove
Pentire Head
The Plantation
Bosigran
Gordale
Cloggy
The Rainbow Slab
The Cromlech

I'd probably have Scafell if it is as good as people say.
I fully admit to having done very little north of the border, or indeed even been to Fairhead.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I like portland and swanage.

Cheddar has a certain charm too.

Millstone or cratcliffe for grit, lundy for granite, slate is simply awesome stuff - coupled with the semi industrial nature of the quarries makes it fantastic to be around. More dimensions than just the routes, which are also full of character.

I also agree with Andy F about Malham, what a venue! The grandness is inspiring, routes unlikely and grades elitist. Perfect if you are fortunate.

Pembroke and north devon coast crags are winners too.

However, I have also climbed into bed at a Premier Inn, one person's interpretation of premier might not be all that after all.

What I really like is the fact that I haven't climbed on a number of other peoples crags. So much yet to explore!

Regards, bottoms up, K

In reply to andi turner:
I'm seeing two types of climber on this thread. Those who put Fairhead at the top of their list, and those who haven't climbed at Fairhead

In reply to victim of mathematics: If Lundy is one big crag - cant you say the same for range east and west?

My list (limited to england and wales I'm afraid)

Cloggy
Bosigran
Gogarth - main cliff to wen zawn
Dinas Cromlech
Bwlch y moch (if thats how you spell it)
Scafell
Stanage
Old Redoubt (berry head)
Cheddar
carn gowla

In reply to Kevster:

I was going to accuse you of clear bias towards your local venues, but the I saw you live in East Anglia, so you don't actually have any local venues.
Must just be poor taste then.

In reply to andi turner: Fairhead, Fairhead, Fairhead. My top 3.

In reply to andi turner:
I don't like the word 'premier' associated with crags. When you see it on free porn sites it always denotes the section you have to pay for.

In reply to Aigen:

That's actually only one. What are your other nine?

In reply to andy farnell: Even as a Yorkshireman, I have to disagree. Malham should probably be included at a polished push.

In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat:

Really?

In reply to andi turner: Wot? No votes for Bell Hagg?

In reply to andi turner:

Compared to most Peak Lime crags (and some Grit crags), Malham is virgin. Plus, its setting is stunning, the wings and upper tier offer some of the most atmospheric climbing in the UK.

Andy F

In reply to Toby Dunn: How can you not include Kilnsey???

Andy F

In reply to Curiously Austrian IP:

Which shows how little you know about UK climbing. It made Extreme Rock, which isn't a bad start. Fawcett loved the place. Ondra thought it worthy of repeated visits. Trad and Sport sit comfortably side by side. Stunning architecture, amazing lines, what more do you want?

In reply to andi turner: Bowden doors for sure, The ben (both north and south sides of it) and shephards crag in the lakes. all have history, popularity and the draw back factor.

In reply to andy farnell:

Because it's shit?

In reply to rnotman67:

I was wondering about this. Bowden is quite good, maybe even the best crag in Northumberland, but it's not really anywhere on a list of the best crags in the UK now, is it?

In reply to victim of mathematics:

Maybe you'd appreciate it a bit more if you learnt to climb harder than 6b?

In reply to alabalackshaw:

Maybe it would be a better crag (perhaps even one of the UK's premier crags) if it had some things worth climbing at a sensible grade...

In reply to andi turner:

In order of greatness:

1. Lower Sharpnose
2. Lower Sharpnose
3. Lower Sharpnose
4. Lower Sharpnose
5. Lower Sharpnose
6. Lower Sharpnose
7. Lower Sharpnose
8. Lower Sharpnose
9. Lower Sharpnose

Can't think of a 10th...

In reply to andi turner:

Lower Pen Trwyn.

In reply to andi turner:

I can't wait to see Franco's list.......

In reply to rnotman67:

The Ben is a mountain, not a single crag.

Shepherds' isn't even the best cliff in Borrowdale.

Chris

In reply to rnotman67:

South? Poll Dubh? It's good, but come on.

In reply to victim of mathematics:

I haven't been there, but it being shit is most definitely a good reason for it not being in a Top 10.

In reply to Nic Robinson:

I can't wait to see the ensuing row after Heathcliff has posted his list. He needs un-banning.

In reply to alabalackshaw:

What is it with the obsession to climb hard all the time. Isn't it all about getting out in the fantastic British countryside with people whose company you enjoy and having a good time? I would say that a vote for any crag is valid (well, perhaps Bell Hagg is pushing things a bit too far), but stop criticising other people's choices. If someone likes Malham or Kilnsey, then that's their preference, even if they are wrong. And as for stating that all the best crags are North of the Border, ...

Give me Stanage, Froggatt and Lawrencefield and you can keep the rest. Oh and throw in somewhere in Pembrokeshire.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Shepherds, if you take away the conveinence, is arguably one of the worst crags in Borrowdale.

In reply to RichS-Bristol: Bell Hagg is a brilliant crag, possibly the birthplace of highball bouldering.

In reply to Curiously Austrian IP:

Your user name and comments lead me to think you're Franco Cookson, your Trad grade suggests you're not.

In reply to andi turner: It seems to me that too many people are confusing "Premier" with "comfortable and convenient". An indictment not just of this thread but UK climbing in general

In reply to Chris Craggs:

A-la interviewer: "Is Ringo Starr the best drummer in the world?" John: "Ringo isn't even the best drummer in the Beatles"

Some great replies, and it definitely does say a lot about who's making the suggestions as much as the suggestions made. It makes me think that maybe some sort of 'foreigner' test would sort the wheat from the chaff.

When I think of France, I think Ceuse, Buoux, Verdon and Font. They would be France's premier crags, even though Buoux is probably their equivalent to Malham?

In reply to kevin stephens: Maybe...but then again, some people also seem to think that hard to get to, remote and dirty, means that a crag is of particular worth (sometimes!). I think it can also depend on what mood you're in! If I could be transported to any crag in the UK this instant, at this moment in time I'd be thinking more '30 feet and sedimentary' than '150 feet and volcanic' if you catch my drift.

It doesn't mean however that I don't hink that some of the more remote crags couldn't do with a bit more attention. East Buttress on Scafell and even the Tophet Wall could really do with some more love, but seem to be in diminishing returns - who wants to walk an hour to a dirty crag? No one, so the crag gets dirtier and so on....

In reply to andi turner:
Doesn't score well on the popularity, accessibility & grade range criteria, so maybe not a premier venue as such, but one of the most awe inspiring crags I've been to in the UK is Sron Ulladale (it rained of course!).

In reply to Jon Stewart:
>>

Maybe I was over generous giving Grit three crags in the list, I'd have to drop Stanage ;o

When I think NW Scotland, I think Reiff, but it can't be a premier crag despite being a brilliant one.

In reply to RichS-Bristol:

Please show me where I have ever stated anything that suggests I'm grade obsessed?

I'm only pointing out to your mate that Kilnsey is actually a fantastic crag with loads to offer, and the fact that he can't actually climb any of the routes there doesn't make it 'shit'. Therefore, my point is that if he could climb a bit harder, maybe he would be able to offer a more valid opinion on the merits of the crag; clearly you can't decry something as shit or big it up to be brilliant if you haven't climbed at least some of the routes.

In reply to andi turner:

Fairhead isn't remote and dirty - it has a ten minute walk-in and most of the good stuff is clean. It may not fill all criteria but for the sheer quantity of brilliant climbing, it's as good a candidate as any for the best crag in the UK.

In reply to victim of mathematics:

Not really. Why would that make any difference? For someone operating in the 7s and Es, Kilnsey definitely is a premier crag; what you mean is that it's not got much to offer in the lower grades and you can't climb there. Why is that a prerequisite to being premier?

The crag clearly has excellent, three star classic lines on awesome rock and is an almost uniquely steep UK limestone buttress. They are obviously hardish, so if you're not operating at those grades you clearly won't have been able to climb any of the really good lines.

I therefore think it's just a bit of a silly comment to say that it's 'shit' when your opinion must be based on climbing lines that don't actually demonstrate the quality of the crag?

To be clear - I'm not slagging of your climbing standard, just questioning whether you can really back up your comment.

In reply to RichS-Bristol:

No, that is way too boring. It would be a pretty short debate if we didn't actually debate.

In reply to andi turner: Whitestone Cliffe, Wainstones, Danby, Clemitts Boulders. And maybe Shepheards? :P

In reply to Kevster:


Millstone is the premier grit crag for people who don't like grit. Cratcliffe is great, but there isn't much there and while it's got the best HVS, and some great E2s (and 3s?) it doesn't touch Stanage or The Roaches for grit greatness.

As for Almscliff (somewhere above)...pah! It's tiny, it smells of shit and it's got about 14 routes, most of which are eliminates, all of which are polished and overrated. It's only Yorkshire's premier crag because all the other crags (except Slipstones, which isn't really Yorkshire, not grotty enough) are so poor.

[I am aware that the second paragraph is silly and immature (while being true as well), but it fits the tone of the thread I think].

In reply to andi turner: Paviland on Gower Great crag for HS,VS,HVS,E1 climber some of my favourite routes in the world I have done they would be super stared and polished if in Pembroke

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Yes! Or maybe "Millstone is the premier grit crag for people who don't get on with grit".
I like it, I'm just a bit rubbish at it.


Yeah, maybe. But I'd say there's no E2s at Stanage that are a match for the Cratcliffe E2s.

In reply to alabalackshaw:

OK, fair enough, I was being rather facetious when I said that Kilnsey was shit.

But, I find sport climbing tremendously uninspiring (at least in this country, there are some pretty inspiring lines elsewhere - Fiesta de los Biceps anyone?), and I don't really rate limestone trad in the Peak or Yorkshire. Kilnsey is impressively steep, maybe even uniquely so (ignoring perhaps Sron Ulladale?), but that isn't sufficient reason to consider it a 'premier' crag.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that there are plenty of crags which I don't climb at because I'm not good enough. Some of those inspire me to get better so I can climb there, Kilnsey, Malham and Goredale don't. Whilst I respect that some people think they're the best crags in the world, I think it's a little one-eyed to suggest that any right-thinking person would include all of them (or even any of them) in their top 10 crags of the UK.

In reply to jonny2vests:


Does that make Cratcliffe better than Stanage? Should we really be asking which crags in the UK have the best E2s, as they would then be, by definition, the best crags?

In reply to victim of mathematics:

Just because you are shit at climbing is no reason to call a crag shit. Kilnsey is one of the most impressive crags I've have seen on first arrival. Those super steep walls and the capping roof. That capped with all the history of the place.

Malham, also in the same league. Truly, truly ispriring places. Enough to warrant a trip from the best climber in the world. Top top top classics.

I cannot believe you could write either of these crags off as shit. You're an embarassment.

In reply to victim of mathematics:

Victim - read it again. Especially the bit where I agree with him.

In reply to andi turner:

Reiff isn't really a crag though, it's the whole peninsula - it's almost like considering Stanage, Burbage etc the same crag.

None of the separate parts of Reiff come close to Diabaig, Seana Mheallan, Ardmair or Sheigra...never mind Beinn Eighe or Carnmore. And Skye and the Hebrides...

I don't much mind what's universally recognised as 'premier', imho NW Scotland is where it's at

In reply to andi turner: At the moment, the Llanberis Slate, of course!

In reply to andi turner:

Not climbed on that many of these and probably never going to be good enough to climb at several of them, but I reckon a premier league of 20 would look something like this:

• Fairhead
• Clogwyn Du’r Arddu
• Gogarth (Main)
• Scafell (East Buttress)
• Sron Na Ciche
• Huntsman’s Leap
• Stanage Edge
• Bosigran
• Craig an Dubh Loch
• Dun Mingulay

• Lundy
• Craig Bwlch Y Moch
• Dinas Cromlech
• Cheddar Gorge
• Bowden Doors
• The Roaches
• Malham Cove
• Chair Ladder
• Dow Crag
• Mother Carey’s

At at push I reckon the top 10 probably edge the second half of the list.

In reply to victim of mathematics:

I didn't say that Kilnsey is premier because it's steep - I said Kilnsey is premier because it's got amazing three star routes on excellent rock. You're conflating my points. And they're not all sport and it's not all steep - how about Deja Vu? That's a trad wall climb and I'd say it's a pretty awesome line: how can you not 'rate' that?

Again, I didn't say that Kilnsey/Malham/Goredale would be in my top ten UK crags - I'm just saying that Kilnsey is premier. Again, conflating points.

I maintain my original point that I don't think anyone can say a crag is great or crap if they haven't at least climbed some of the lines that give the crag its reputation (note: I'm not saying these need to be hard lines, just some the best rated ones at any grade). Therefore, whether certain places inspire you to climb harder or not is largely irrelevant because in order to legitimately slag off or rate a crag, you need to have done a few of its best/most classic routes. Otherwise, how can you draw a meaningful comparison and subsequently back up why you've decided a crag is 'premier' enough to include in your list, or decided to slag other people off for including it in theirs?

And by the way, there's tons of impressive sport climbing in the UK and more developing all the time. You mention Riglos but have you ever visited the Camel or Moy Rock? These are top class venues on rock that is very much like Riglos/Montsant. Personally, I find both of these crags to be inspiring places to climb. You could aim for Stone of Destiny at the Camel - one of the most classic 6c+ routes in the UK - which should be redpointable for you now. You never know, it might cheer you up!

In reply to alabalackshaw:


This is a reasonable point of view, but does not leave many people in a position to contribute to this debate from a really informed perspective. It is quite feasible to be inspired by a crag and be well aware it offers premier climbing without having climbed there much (or at all).
For what it's worth my top 10 crags that I have climbed at would look different to the premier league I posted (I have a shameful lack of experience north of the border):
* Dow Crag
* Gimmer
* Boulder Ruckle
* The Roaches
* Bosigran
* Chair Ladder
* Ogmore
* Cheddar Gorge
* Craig Bwlch Y Moch
* Mother Carey's

In reply to jonny2vests:

Fair enough. "Yeah, maybe" is a little open to interpretation though...

In reply to JimmyKay:
You're an embarassment.

I'd rather be an embarassment than an offensive moron

In reply to The Ivanator:

I'd say that list isn't far off.

I'd drop The Roaches for Kilnsey and maybe add Carnmore. Bosigran AND Chair Ladder? Not sure about that. Also I'd include the whole of Gogarth rather than just (main).

You'd have to be pretty cynical not to enjoy a day's cragging at any of those (assuming you can reach the standard of course)

ALC

In reply to victim of mathematics:

No you are an embarassment.

In reply to The Ivanator:

Good list. I'd be icline to drop Cheddar and The Roaches if anything. All of thoes crags are superb though.

In reply to JimmyKay: Can you climb E1 and be shit? F*cking hell.

In reply to andi turner: This thread has reminded me I need to travel a bit more widely. Devon/Cornwall on the list for next Summer.

In reply to andy farnell:

Good to hear because I did a ** HS there that was utter shite. I will try harder and go for the VSs and up next time!

In reply to andi turner: What about Nesscliffe? It's pretty impressive for a lowland crag, one of the most beautiful I've seen in the UK, although it doesn't have much to please the masses gradewise I guess.

In reply to JimmyKay:

I agree with Jimmy.

I can't believe Craig Y Longridge hasn't been mentioned yet. World-class shuffling.

In reply to Submit to Gravity:

Cornwall's got some superb offerings at VS, you'll love it. I'll be in touch. :0)

In reply to The Ivanator:


When I posted my top ten yesterday I forgot about Fair Head and I have never been to Cornwall, so we are in remarkable agreement! How no one else has mentioned the Dubh Loch is beyond me. Dun Mingulay is a no brainer too. Good to see that someone else has good taste.

In reply to Andy Moles:


I've only climbed on the gneiss at places like Diabaig and Tollie, but I'd say the best rock in the UK in the most beautiful settings. I'd love to climb on the sandstone too, looks beautiful.

But I haven't been to Pabbay and Migulay yet. However, somewhere so inaccessible while probably the best thing ever, couldn't really be considered a premier crag.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

There may well be some truth in that, but I just can't see how you can put them in the top ten and leave out the major Scottish mountain crags.


Arguably. But for anyone living anywhere near the best crags in the UK, the journey to Cornwall would take longer and be far less pleasant(hours battling the motorway systems around Manchester and Birmingham or a drive through the Highlands and a few very relaxing hours on boats in the hebrides? Now let me think.......).

In reply to andi turner:

Limited to ten, hmm, tricky. I've not done much at a couple of these suggestions but the few things I have done made me really impressed.

Scafell Crag
Ben Nevis
Pillar Rock
Dow Crag
Roaches
Stanage
Dinas Cromlech
Gogarth main
Etive Slabs

They are the only ones I've climbed at that I would consider really top top quality crags. To my shame I've not been to Pembroke yet and I've done very little in Cornwall. I've also not climbed at Malham or Kilnsey but agree that they look superb. Sron na Ciche on Skye should be in too, so my last 3 would be whatever is great at Pembroke, Sron na Ciche and Malham or Kilnsey.

In reply to MattG: Actually, remove a grit crag and add the Shelterstone or Creag an Dubh Loch.

In reply to andi turner: in no order
Wilton 1
Wilton 2
Wilton3
Anglezarke
Egerton quarry
Brownstones
Dow crag
Froggatt
Almscliffe
Stanage

In reply to victim of mathematics:

Clearly you just don't climb well enough to appreciate it!

Kilnsey is a good crag by any standards. Maybe in Spain it wouldn't rate but in The UK!?

You are either on a wind up mission or are just crap at climbing and don't know what you are talking about.

In reply to efrance24234:

Eh? Just coincidental then?

In reply to davo: I'm crap at climbing but I can see how amazing it would be to climb one of the really steep lines at Kilnsey, even if I may not be able to.

In reply to JimmyKay:

Sigh. I didn't call you an embarassment, that was me quoting you. I called you an offensive moron.

I'm not really sure why this has descended into a slanging match anyway. I don't think Kilnsey, Malham or Gordale warrant a place in a UK top 10 premier crags, but you do. Whether I'm "shit at climbing" or not, I dare say I've climbed at a damn sight more crags than you have, certainly at least enough to have a legitimate opinion on the matter.

So how about we agree to disagree about Yorkshire limestone and stop bickering like children?

In reply to efrance24234:


Why not replace Dow with Wilton 4 and Stanage with Cadshaw and you must surely have the ultimate list if you drop Almscliffe and Frogatt.

In reply to Dave Ferguson:

I like your style but I'm not too sure about Castell Helen.
I quite like Holyhead Mountain myself.

In reply to birdie num num:

That'll be the sites where Mrs Num Num is selling her wares in the ' Free Sex In your Area' bit.

In reply to Ian Jones:

Let's have your top 10 then Ian.
And no hypocricy.

In reply to TobyA:

The VS's are utter shite also. The quality starts at E1.

In reply to andi turner:
In no particular order and representing a good range of rock types my choices would be;

Dow Crag,
Gimmer,
Gogarth Main Cliff,
Dinas Mot,
Stanage,
Berry Head,
Kilnsey,
Malham,
Diabaig,
Bowden Doors.

Given perfect weather Scafell, Cloggy and the Ben would make it on instead of Gimmer, Dow and Dinas Mot.

In reply to Curiously Austrian IP:
Oh my word it's the return of Mr "Frankly Tiresome"; wonder if you can break your previous record(s) for time from registration to being banned.
Shouldn't be to difficult I guess, given your track record!!

In reply to GPN:

That's a good list for sure.

In reply to Ian Jones:

Done Junkyard Angel? Last time I checked it was HVS and one of the best anywhere. There's also the Crossbones/East Wall Route combo at the same grade.

ALC

In reply to Jon Stewart:

You'll love it. I'm not convinced the actual rock is any better than grit like people often say, but it's bigger and the settings are incredible.

In reply to Andy Moles: I'm inspired now, going to start sounding folk out for a trip in late May. Want to get to Reiff, Ardmair, Sheigra as a minimum. Beinn Eighe if the weather is kind, but I won't hold my breath for that.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Sheigra is gneiss, though totally different to the Diabaig kind - more the steep and juggy Pabbay kind. Not that you shouldn't go, it's beast!

You should put Seana Mheallan on the list as well. And Stac Pollaidh is well worth a visit. I'll stop now.

In reply to GPN:

Interesting to see Bowden Doors cropping up so often. A good cliff indeed and certainly the County's premier cliff...maybe...but, nationally? Or is it because people love it?

In reply to Bulls Crack:

I love Bowden and I've climbed there more than anywhere else but I wouldn't dream of picking it.

It's very charming and there's lots to do but it's also short and sandy and a lot of the classic 'routes' are just extreme highballs.

In reply to Bulls Crack:

I included it as "best of it's type" in the interests of variety. The quality is superb and the situation superb.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Likewise. I always have a good day at Bowden.

In reply to andi turner:
I think this has turned too parochial. Kiddie-bickering about not including my favourite place and regional biases are not helpful and are now littering this discussion.

Perhaps a better way to asnwer this would be where would a visitor to the UK go? Visit France for the first time for climbing and it's likely you'll head to one or more of Font, Ceuse, Calanques, Buoux, Orpierre, Verdon.

Where do visitors to the UK aspire to go to? (bad weather and sports bias permitting).

Stanage,
Gogarth,
Dinas Cromlech,
Ben Nevis,
Buachaille,
Malham,
???

Having said that, the places I have met visiting climbers have been quite peculiar (e.g. Helsby) but that probably says more about where I tend to go.

In reply to andi turner:

Like your list; but with High Tor and Cloggy in it somewhere.

(Probably instead of Almscliff, Bowden or (sorry!) Roaches?)

In reply to andi turner: for me,
Stanage
High tor
Cheedale (counting it all together)
Scafell
Cloggy
Dinas cromlech
Gogarth (but I cant decide which bit)
Bosigran
Sharpnose
Boulder ruckle

In reply to Si dH: altho im unsure of sharpnose vs bwlch y moch. Great climbing but perhaps not extensive enough.

In reply to Jon Read:
I agree, don't really now enough about north of the border but as a list of 4 south of the border which should be almost unarguablely on any top ten list:

Stanage - the definitive gritsone crag
Gogarth main cliff - the epitome of british sea cliff adventure climbing
Malham - the best inland limestone crag with world class sport climbing, great trad and a magnificent settting.
Dinas Cromlech - historic and landmark routes for every climber except the very hardest.

A little bit of north wales bias (and I'd probably include Cloggy as well) there but at least there's 6 left for the rest of the country!

In reply to Ian Patterson:
I thought the point of the thread was about where your own 'premier' crags were, rather than trying to judge what the top ten would be by some independent measure?
What Andy could tell about me from my list, is that Ive cone almost all my harder sport climbing at Cheedale and dont get on with the tiny polished crimps at a lot of Malham (although it still nearly got in), and that Ive never (!) rock-climbed in Scotland.

In reply to andi turner:

Trying to be objective, hoe about:

Bosigran
Lundy
Huntsman's Leap
Stanage
Malham
Cloggy
Scafell
Creag an Dubh Loch
Sron na Ciche
Carnmore

And a totally biased list of faves:

Lundy
Baggy Point
Stanage
Windgather
Carreg Alltrem
Gimmer
Polldubh
Creag an Dubh Loch
Etive Slabs
Reiff

In reply to andi turner:
No mention of Cir Mhor?

In reply to Will Hunt:
Or Dali's Hole?

In reply to Jon Read:

Agree. And people listing their ten favourite local crags is neither clever nor witty, adding nothing to what is actually quite an interesting discussion.


No. I think that is a very different question again. A typical foreigner's view of UK climbing tends to look little beyond Grit (summer) and Ben Nevis (winter). Their knowledge appears to be generally dicatated by the latest best selling video; I met a touring French climber who only took in Dumbarton Rock in Scotland.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Oh dear!

I think the lists are atleast producing some recurrent themes. Sounds like Malham should be in, besides, if it's good enough to make it onto the Yorkshire Tea box, then it's good enough for a top 10!

The only one which keeps occuring which I disagree with is Cloggy... which, despite having massive history, is it really that good? Not that I've ever been!

In reply to andi turner:

Yes, it is very good indeed. I think all the routes I have done there have been excellent to outstanding (admittedly I've only done about ten). It also has a good spread of grades. I have to reluctantly admit that it holds it own with the major Scottish mountain crags (I suspect the only other one which does so is, by most accounts, Scafell East).

In reply to andi turner:

Oh go on then...... I'm a sucker for lists.

Gogarth Main
Nesscliffe
Dun Mingulay
Huntsman Leap
Malham
Tremadog
Scimitar Ridge
Scafell East
Cloggy
Fairhead..... although I haven't been but trust many.

In reply to andi turner:


Well, I've only been once and done one and a half routes, but yes! Absolutely brilliant - shame its always wet

In reply to andi turner:


err so how can you disagree?

In reply to Will Hunt:

Clearly not many contributors have laid eyes on the Rosa Pinnacle!

In reply to Rich Kirby:

That would be pretty close to my list. Prob the Cromlech or Rainbow Slab would bump Nesscliffe off.

In reply to The Ivanator:
>

I think you pretty much nailed it two days ago - at least for proper UK trad, which is probably what we do best.


Chris

In reply to jonny2vests:

Maybe Rainbow Bridge or Anstey's, but basically I agree.

In reply to chris wyatt: A bit down the posts and no mention of LPT, what's wrong?

In reply to andi turner: Reiff, Sheigra, Diabeg

In reply to MJ: That's better.

In reply to victim of mathematics:

What, being high up and pulling on stones that are the equivalent of a repetitive set of indoor holds is THAT inspiring? I haven't climbed in Riglos so can't really comment but can imagine what it'd be like.

I don't understand how anyone can't see that perfect rock, amazing moves (world class sport is not exclusively defined by the line) and a great setting don't equal magnificent? With respect I think suggesting that Kilnsey et al are duff is just wrong.

Get inspired:

Rub a Dub Dub, Diamond
Boat People, Diamond
Bad Bad Boy, LPT
Mussel Beach, LPT
Over the Moon Direct, LPT (very cool line to boot)
La Boheme, LPT
Pink Pinkie, LPT
Face Race, LPT
Mayfair, Pen Trwyn
Axle Attack, Pen Trwyn
The Bearded Clam, Pen Trwyn

All are brilliant and would stand comparison with anywhere. I know none of that lot is from Yorkshire (I haven't done enough there to 'know' what's real class but there's just as many if not more stunning stuff there).

Do some of these things, tussle with them, learn on them and then comment.

In reply to MattG: Huntsman's is incredible and unforgettable. There's also a stack of truly brilliant routes dotted all over the other crags. Go to Pembroke, you will be amazed!

In reply to ksjs:

"Perfect rock" is rather subjective though, isn't it? Other than Pembroke (which is a bit of an anomaly), I don't really like limestone. Somewhere like Malham might look impressive, but no amount of sport climbers banging on about how great all of the routes are is going to inspire me to go and climng desperately to some rubbish sidepulls whilst my feet skate around on the non-footholds.

It's obvious from this thread that people have different interpretations of what a "premier crag" constitutes. For me, personally, it has to be somewhere inspiring with great lines and brilliant climbing. No sport crag in Britain is going to push those buttons for me (and if it was, then it definitely wouldn't be LPT!). For the same reasons I don't really think that any grit crag warrants inclusion. I love climbing on grit, but Stanage wouldn't trouble my top 10 crags by any criterion other than 'most climbed on' or 'nearest my house' (and the latter would include Stannington Ruffs!).

In reply to andi turner:

Okay, let the scoffing commence....I'll tenatively offer Dumbarton Rock (purely as I know it well) which has high quality trad, sport and bouldering at a variety of grades all at the one crag. Not the most inspirational surroundings perhaps but in terms of "value for money" for a compact crag, it surely has to be up there. Hosted the hardest routes in the country on more than one occasion.

In reply to victim of mathematics:

Stannington is not grit: its some kind of devil biscuit. I'm with Andi that some should be there but would only have Stanage and Roaches.

In reply to victim of mathematics: You have spent too much time with Tom Ripley, LPT has some brilliant routes on really brilliant rock, though unsure as to whether it is a premier crag. It seems limestone is a weakness of yours??

When I hear you complain that limestone has crap climbing on it, I take it with the same view that I do when I hear people say that Tremadog is crap...

You haven't learned to climb well on limestone/dolerite (trem haters), and so your ego dismisses it as good climbing, so you don't feel bad about never climbing on it...

In reply to Andi Turner;

My List would be:

Gogarth; Main Cliff (done a fair bit there)
Dinas Cromlech (Done a couple of routes but aspire to many more)
Tremadog (Done quite a lot there)
Cloggy (Done 2 routes)
Lower Sharpnose (Had 2 bad days there but aspire to do many of the routes)
Kilnsey (Never been, looks awesome)
Dow Crag (Done a couple of routes there)
Roaches (Done a few routes there)
Stanage (Done a few bits and bobs, but it is potentially the UKs most popular crag and yet whatever grade you climb, there is something for you)
Huntsman's Leap (done 2 routes there, aspire to do more)
Mother Careys (as above)
Bosigran (as above)
Scafell (never been looks awesome)
Lundy (as above)
Pabbay/Mingulay (as above)
The Ben (as above)

Dunc

In reply to Duncan Campbell:

Bit of a cheat to call Lundy a crag, though

In reply to Duncan Campbell:


I've climbed twice as many routes on limestone (over 400 at 65 different crags) as any other rock type barring grit. So I think I've given it a fair chance to grow on me. It has it's merits (I quite like some of the North Lancashire outcrops for a spot of soloing), but it just isn't that great in the grand scheme of things.

How does that square with your presumptions? Have I earnt the right to an opinion that differs from yours?

In reply to andi turner:

For me the crags would be...

Old Man of Hoy
Etive Slabs
Scarfell
Malham
Cratcilff (best and most underated crag on grit in my opinion)
Tremadog
Cloggy
Sharpnose
Great Zawn
Land´s End
Bowles

In reply to Offwidth:

I'll have to take your word on that, since I can never find anybody willing to go there with me...

In reply to Duncan Campbell:

He's not the only one. I've climbed on lots of crags, in lots of countries, over many years - and Limestone is definitely my least favourite rock. I'm a bit sceptical about much of Johnny Dawes' 'wisdom' but he was spot on about it being climbing on dead, squashed sealife and that is somehow depressing! UK inland limestone really isn't my cup of tea, it seems to get better at the coast though (and I still haven't been to Pembroke). I totally accept though that differing people have differing views on this though.

Fraser - I'd be inclined to agree with you on Dumby. Dumby is a pretty amazing place. I've always thought the talk of the surrounding urban blight has been a bit overplayed. Looking out across the water as the sunset down the estuary, or crisp bouldering with a snow-topped Ben Lomond in the background - its beautiful. Then all the history, and canons!!! How many UK crags have bloody canons at the top? How call is that?

I note I'm still the only person to have ticked Dumbarton Chimney in the UKC logbook database too!

In reply to Fraser:

Scoff

In reply to victim of mathematics:
If you had just posted a list of your favorites, no one would have argued with you. The reason this started having read it, is that your first post was just to pour scorn on somebody else's opinion. So the above is very much the pot capling the kettle black.

In reply to Si dH:

I (surprisingly) disagree. I respect people's right to hold the opinion that Malham is great (although they're obviously a bit weird). What I took exception too was the statement that any list must include Malham, Kilnsey and Gordale, which is clearly an attempt to impose a subjective opinion as objective.

As I've said already, my comment about Kilnsey being shit was facetious, although not without a grain of truth in it...

In reply to Robert Durran:

Care to expand on that?! Have you done many routes/problems there? Have you even been there...? Agreed, one visit might result in your comment but a few would soon open your eyes to its attraction.

Where else has such top grade trad, sport and boulder problems? Please name two others to amuse me.

How many UK crags have bloody canons at the top?

Now thers a question...

Old Battery, Lundy (top 10)
Brean Down (better than Dumbarton)
The Old Redout (top 10)
Edinburgh Castle Crags (?)

erm.. any more?

In reply to alan moore:
I think Skeleton Ridge is close enough to the Needles Battery on the Isle of Wight for it to count? Probably not a top 10 contender though!

In reply to alan moore:

Excellent stuff, and I bet all those crags are all the better for having some bloody great canons on the top!

In reply to andi turner: I've been climbing less than a year so i can only include those in my list. I have taken note of the some of above to go to next year. but my list is in fav order:
1. Roaches (74 Routes)incs lower & upper tier, Skyline and Hen cloud.
2. Stanage (23)
3. Polldubh (3)
4. Harpur Hill (6)
5. Birchen Edge (2)
6. Trevor Rock (2)

hardest lead was VS4c trad and F5+ sport. 2nd was HVS 5a and F6b. i've been told that's not bad for a 54 year old?

In reply to Fraser:

Well, you did more or less invite the scoff!
I would discount the bouldering as not relevant to the thread, since the thread is about crags (admittedly I am not into bouldering as an end in itself anyway).
Yes, I have been there a few times.
The crag does undoubtedly have it's attractions, but top ten premier crags in the whole UK - you've got to be joking. I mean I had to leave out Ben Nevis, Beinn Eighe The Shelter Stone,Carnore, Reiff, Diabaig, Dow, Kilnsey, the whole of Cornwall, the Cromlech etc. etc. as it is!

In reply to Jon Read:

It has been suggested to me that a very good way to rephrase the question would be:
"What ten crags would you recommend a visiting first timer to the UK to climb on in order to sample the Best Of British (assuming good weather)."
Note that this is very different to

In reply to Fraser:

I probably can't, but that doesn't make Dumbarton "premier".

In reply to Robert Durran:

"What ten crags give a visitor the best quality and variety of diffrent types of climbing, namely trad, sport and bouldering."

Again, I'd give you Dumby. Frankly, It's ridiculous to dismiss bouldering at a crag (as opposed to free-standing boulders) and because it's 'not your cup of tea'.

In reply to andi turner:

As I was one of the posters, here's my list:

Sron Na Ciche
Gogarth
Cloggy
Carn Dearg
Shelterstone
Carnmore
Creag an Dubh Loch
Scafell
Beinn Eighe
Bosigran

Can't comment on Lundy, Pabbay, Mingulay or Fairhead.

The most excited and most want to return to place I've been recently is the crags around the Envers Hut, just off the Mer de Glace.

In reply to Ian Patterson:

Take your point but not too many onsights of Nightmayer are there?

In reply to ksjs: Stanington Ruffs!

In reply to Paul Hyland:

Never mind 54, its pretty good for a year of climbing !

I would say that lumping Hen Cloud with the Roaches is akin to lumping Baslow, Curbar and Froggat into one crag !

In reply to victim of mathematics: Ceuse is widely agreed to be the (or at least amongst) very best in the world; you probably wouldn't like / rate it. Yes, you may not like something but if you can't take on board what by consensus equates to quality then I can't really take your negative view of Malham etc seriously.

Exactly what's so bad, different about limestone?

In reply to victim of mathematics: And yes, "Perfect rock" isn't subjective, I simply mean solid and continuous. I doubt I'm alone in that definition. You seem to be being deliberately contrary.

In reply to Fraser: For convenience, variety, history and quality (and a rather gorgeous / continental setting) in one it has to be Pen Trwyn: Upper, Lower and Parisella's; trad, sport and bouldering.

Admittedly no big Es but there's some big Vs.

In reply to andi turner: This was on Planet Fear a while back and might interest some. Some nice photos and route recommendations in each of the articles.

1. St. Govan's
1. Birch Quarry (spoof!)
2. Stanage
3. Landing Craft Bay, Lundy
4. Scafell
5. Dinas Cromlech
6. Gogarth Bay
7. Malham Cove
8. Roaches
9. Bosigran
10. Froggatt
11. Huntsman's Leap
12. High Tor
13. Clogwyn Du'r Arddu
14. Mother Carey's Kitchen
15. Portland
16. Tremadog
17. Almscliff
18. Lower Sharpnose
19. Pen Trwyn
20. Llanberis Slate

Link here: http://www.planetfear.com/articles/01_St_Govans_479.html

In reply to ksjs:

Best, premier, top, these are all rather subjective words. I said before what I was interpreting premier as, and by that definition Ceuse may well not get in to my list if it was transplanted to Yorkshire either (I've not been, surprisingly). But it's my list, I'm not expecting it to look like yours. If we were trying to get some kind of objective list then I'd have more time for you Malham-ites, but I still wouldn't put it in the top 10. If we're trying to put together an ideal top 10 sampler for a visiting climber than that's something different again.

What's so bad about limestone? I don't know, it's often too polished, the holds are sometimes a bit blind when you're climbing onsight and the gear's quite frequently not that reassuring. That isn't to say that all of these things are endemic in all limestone routes, just more so than I would really like. It's a taste issue at the end of the day isn't it? I can no better explain to you why I don't like coffee, other than that I don't.

As for your definition of perfect rock as solid and continuous, I can't agree at all. There are some sandstone road cuttings on the M60 which are continuous and not loose, but they aren't perfect rock. I think you have to consider the fundamental quality (over and above solidity) of the rock itself. On the other hand Stanage isn't that continuous, but it's still not bad, and Mick Fowler might have a few words to say about perfect rock having to be solid...

In reply to GrahamD: Thx, plan for next year, is to visit as many of the places mentioned above, plus a visit to USA and Spain. I'll soon have a library of guide books!!

In reply to jonnie3430:

While I can sympathise with your massive bias towards mountain crags (and therefore Scotland), I think that one really has to give more or less equal prominence to mountain crags, sea cliffs and outcrops to properly represent British Climbing, however gut-wrenching it might be to only include a couple of Scottish mountain crags - the list is not meant to be either "the best" or "favourites"!

In reply to Fraser:

Whether bouldering on boulders near the foot of a crag (even as opposed to bouldering on the foot of a crag such as at Bowden Doors) should be given consideration depends on how you interpret the question. It is nothing whatsoever with whether or not bouldering is "my cup of tea" - that was merely an aside!

If you are going to insist on Dumbarton being in your top ten, then I think you are going to have to give us your other nine. I suspect that, one way or another, the scoffing will then really be able to start. I simply refuse to believe that it could be included in any defensible top ten; it will either look like a real odd one out, or else the whole list will be massively skewed towards your own prejudices. Come on, accept the challenge.

In reply to ksjs: I thought the Planet Fear thing was great, especially the piss-take number 1.

By which I meant this:

http://www.planetfear.com/articles/01_Birch_Quarry_834.html

Not the fact that they put shitty St. Govs, the worst crag at Pembroke at number 1, which truly is a massive piss-take. As Fiend so rightly said on their website,

"...a polished bag of non-tidal, non-atmospheric,over-popular shit. Stoney-by-the-sea...if something good comes of this debacle, it shows how ludicrous and pointless ‘best whatever’ lists really are."

In reply to Jon Stewart: St Govan's might not be number one and it might not appeal to Fiend (who - no offence Fiend - favours the esoteric over the mainstream mainly for the sake of it from what I can gather) but it's still very very good:

Get Some In
Tangerine Dream - one of the very best anywhere!
Poisoned Arrow - not top of everyone's list at all but I thought it superb
Test Case
Space Cadet
The Butcher
Ricochet
Depraved
Deranged
War Crime

Plus no doubt a whole stack of other classics I haven't done. Popular yes but shit most definitely not.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Since when did something have to be tidal to be good?

In reply to Robert Durran:

Tsk-tsk Robert, as I teacher I'd expect you to have at least 'read the question' properly. (ie the OP)
It didn't require a list of top 10, merely limited the number of nominations to 10. Also, I took exception to your ealier statement:


This makes no sense and from it I inferred that as bouldering 'wasn't your cup of tea', you dismissed a crag which offered high-quality bouldering from being considered worthy. It's entirely your prerogative, but it's hardly a fair way to make an objective judgement.

I've not climbed at enough crags to offer my definitive list of suggestions. However I've yet to hear someone nominate a crag which has the same number of hard, high quality trad routes, sport routes and boulder problems, all at the one location. Dumby has breadth and depth of quality - that's why I suggested it.

In reply to Fraser:

You're setting a rather artificial bar here. In the UK hardly any crags offer both trad and sport climbing together (at least in any volume), Dumbarton is fairly unusual in that respect. It is therefore a bit disingenuous (although perhaps not deliberately so) to say that because there aren't any other crags which combine all 3 disciplines, Dumbarton is one of the UK's premier crags. There are plenty of crags which offer an overwhelming amount more quality trad climbing than Dumbarton, and I imagine the same is true of sport crags as well as bouldering. Just because one venue has some (fairly limited but apparently high quality) of all 3, that's not an argument for it's overwhelming greatness.

For what it's worth I went to Dumbarton rock once and climbed a couple of the easy trad routes. They were awful, as was the ambience of the place, but the main wall did look pretty damn impressive.

In reply to Fraser:

Ok, but the fewer you list the more bizarre Dumbarton is going to look as one of your choices.

The reason this debate is fun is that it is really quite difficult to get it down to 10 even, because you have to leave out so many strong candidates. Dumbarton isn't even a weak candidate.


I shouldn't have mentioned that bouldering is not my cup of tea because that fact is beside the point, which is that I was arguing that because the boulders at Dumbarton are not part of the crag, they are irrelevant to the discussion.

In reply to metal arms:

I dunno, ask Fiend. I know St Govans is quite good really, I've unfortunately just had some very mediocre experiences there and no particularly good ones.

Army Dreamers - that really is just like Stoney;
Clean Hand Blues Band, also revoltingly polished and I was knackered so wanted an E1 which it ISN'T, Rockfax;
Deranged I thought was unremarkable;
War Crime was eliminate and chossy; and
I backed off The Butcher because it was wet.

And I agree with Fiend that it's the McDonalds sea-cliff climbing. So much better stuff all around it, all of which happens to be tidal.

In reply to victim of mathematics:

Hmmm, I suppose that was my point, it's fairly unique in its high quality offering in all 3 sectors. That, to me, makes a great venue.


Well there we agree. It's not the best venue for easy trad and not many get much traffic these days,


There's no denying it!



In reply to robert durran:


Not really, for the reason I gave above.


In your opinion, however wrong it may be! Refer to the OP:

"This could be based on any personal value ... etc. "


Surely that's a bit petty; you can touch bits the crag from the boulders - you can even jump to the belays from some! I'd say they are indeed part of the crag, just no longer connected to them! ;D

In reply to Jon Stewart: Wow! Have to disagree:

Army Dreamers - a real pleasure, great location, varied line
CHBB - polish makes no difference on this, tricky move and yes, E2 but definitely worthwhile
Deranged - only seconded this but really engaging from start to finish?
War Crime - unless I'm mistaken this is a line up a big obvious corner and clean?
The Butcher - just excellent trad: great gear, great position, nice (safe) runout, quite physical and generally a good challenge at the grade

Some of the other stuff is just sensational too. Sounds like you just don't get on with the place / got out of bed on the wrong side every day you went?

In reply to victim of mathematics: Disagree on the polish, gear and reading: polish rarely has any effect on the climbing, gear is often bombproof (Pembroke and Pen Twryn for example) and I actually think it can be easy to read (not to mention that where holds are small and sequences inobvious you can nearly always 'stand' on something or clutch at some small edge and on the continent (Spain, Kalymnos) you don't get anything that's easier to read onsight than their limestone at times - buckets!)

Some of my best climbing experiences have been on limestone as I'm sure is the case for many others. I agree it maybe doesn't have the character of other types / venues but it can still be utterly brilliant. It just sounds like you've got a bit of a chip on your shoulder to be honest.

In reply to andi turner:

Stanage
Harrisons
Cloggy
Tremadog
Gimmer
Bosigran
Gogarth
Cuillins
Old Man of Stoer
East Face of Tryfan

In reply to andi turner:

Perhaps a bit of an alternative top 10, but I think anyone else who has climbed at any of these crags would agree:

1)Gable (winter)
2)Whitestone Cliff
3)Raven crag Langstrath
4)Roseberry Topping
5)Hodge Close
6)Stoupe Brow
7)Peado Geo (Mingulay)
8)Rainbow slab
9)John Dunne Mingulay
10)Danby Crag

In reply to Curiously Austrian IP:

No they wouldn't. Unless they were also talking out of their arse.

In reply to ksjs:

If you think that polish has no effect on the climbing then you've clearly never been to Stoney (which I actually have a bit of a soft spot for), or Wintour's Leap, or Farleton , or any number of other limestone crags. It certainly makes some moves harder, and also (and maybe more crucially for me) it makes climbing on it a damn sight less pleasant.

The gear at Pembroke is generally pretty good, but that's not true for inland limestone, which tends to have those annoying cracks which take any number of shonky nuts, but no reassuring ones.

And I still totally disagree about it being easy to read. I find this especially true of quarried limestone where from below you have no way of knowing whether a hold is going to be a brilliant sharp crimp or a less-than-useless sloper. I don't get your point about always being able to stand on something while you work it out. Surely that's true on any kind of rock? As limestone climbing is often steeper and pumpier, that makes the situation even worse (admittedly especially so if you're a fat punter like me).


You appear to do a lot of sports climbing, which in this country means you must like limestone, since if you didn't there's not a great deal of scope for you to climb anything. So I think it's you who's being a bit one-eyed about it. But, I'm not trying to convince you that you're wrong (you have every right to be wrong), I'm just trying to explain to you why I don't share your viewpoint.

And by the way, what do you think it means to have a chip on your shoulder about a rock type? Do you think I was beaten by Kilnsey in the 100m at school sports day, or that Malham swindled me in a game of poker once? It seems a rather bizarre choice of words.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I'm not representing british climbing, I am giving a list of what I think are the premier crags. Look at any of these crags from bottom to top and you are impressed. The climbing on them is longer and the experience more interesting which is why I think them more premier than others mentioned.

In reply to Curiously Austrian IP:
"Hello in there Franco. Tell me, what colour is the sky in your world!!!"

In reply to victim of mathematics:

This is the main point about polish. While I think most polished routes haven't undergone a change in grade, they're just not fun to climb. In fact, like you, I find them horrible and would much rather do a 'poorer' route in decent nick than a 3* classic that's polished into oblivion, a la Army Dreamers.

In reply to ksjs: > (In reply to Jon Stewart) Wow! Have to disagree:

Just pulling on holds. Standard limestone. Unremarkable, with no memorable positions, moves or features, but sustained and therefore 'classic'.


There are two corners/grooves, which get very close in the middle. Unfortunately, that's where the crux (or at least the start of the hard climbing) is on the RH line (War Crime), and rather than take the natural line, you have to go up this horrible overhanging corner on the right wall. The party before me took the natural line and missed out half the hard climbing on this route by mistake, but of course I would never do such a thing. When I did it (after rain), it was full of mud and the flakes felt very hollow - to the point of being rather scary. Higher up, it's just the usual limestone choss-topping which is to be expected.


One time was after failing on Mysteries, so I was indeed a bit grumpier than usual. Another time was just trying to get climbing done inbetween incessant rain for days, and it was still minging. So yeah, grumpy again. I want to go back and do Space Cadet, possibly Test Case (though I don't think I'd enjoy that, too likely to fall off) and a few others. St Govs East looks nicer though.

In reply to Anonymous:
It's a glorious rainbow of colours, dyed from my exploding mind. But those were serious suggestions. Danby and Stoupe aren't in the top 10 perhaps, but those sort of crags with loads of hard esoteric routes, like wimberry have so much character about them. Hodge should defo be on the list.

Perhaps the most character of any english crag?

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Test case is horribly polished (not much fun....)
Space Cadet is just dangerous. Not a route I would do again.

In reply to Jon Stewart: I can't really comment on Deranged as it was 5? years ago and I was on second but I remember it feeling tricky, continuous, interesting and no pushover at the grade. It's long, it's by the sea, it's on a crag with a stack of other really good stuff so I won't accept "It's just another piece of limestone." Maybe however I do need to try it again and see.

As for War Crime does it not seek 'difficulty' i.e. the steepness you mention? Nothing wrong with that. I don't remember it being particularly eliminate, I looked at my log notes and see I said it was greasy (due to early morning spray I think) but "very good". No surprise that it might be dirty after rain surely?

Space Cadet and Test Case are superb, the former being a good notch easier. Don't try Test Case in the sun, I did and it was sweaty as anything on the jamming / crack bit. If you like face / crack climbing Poisoned Arrow is really worth a look and v v soft at E4 if you have a bit of fitness / strength. I thought Depraved was sensational, totally overlooked and way better than Deranged and probably E3.

And yes, St Govan's East is superb with the obvious First Blood to go at. If you're looking for amenable E3s do Howling Gale and Forbidden Fruits, both excellent and very steady though the traverse on FF needs a bit of arms / composure.

Hope you have better weather / conditions next time you're there.

In reply to Robert Durran: I'm going to stop with the "Pembroke is amazing and St Govan's ain't bad either thing" soon but come on, Test Case no fun? This lot must have no idea what they're on about: http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=24781

How is Space Cadet dangerous, do you not just use ropework and extend runners?

In reply to victim of mathematics: Like much of UKC this back and forth is all a bit pointless but diverting nonetheless! I doubt you'll change my view nor I yours. I won't let that stop me though...

When I said chip on shoulder I just don't get how you can write a fair percentage of the UK's very best climbing off in one go. Surely you accept it has something going for it, otherwise why would people return to the same venue / route session after session?

Pen Trwyn rock (more upstairs than downstairs) is very featured, often lots of small edges and broccoli rock, this usually means you can stab your foot on something allowing you to stay on a bit longer. Sometimes enough to make another move or reach that good hold you had been eyeing up but couldn't reach. You get more of a chance to scrap I guess. Hence my point about standing on 'anything'.

Don't see how I'm being one eyed: I do trad, sport and boulder. I climb on sea cliffs, mountain rock, grit outcrops, the UK and abroad. I love it all (except maybe quarried limestone but there's still usually something worthwhile even there and let's not forget Parisella's Cave <reverential music builds> which is quarried and brilliant of course!)

Limestone is great in the UK, often weatherproof, often (always?) not in the mountains, often convenience, dries quickly. If you didn't climb it and didn't live right beside grit you'd probably be quite badly off. What the hell am I talking about anyway, I don't need to make any case for limestone: just go and do some of the UK's great sport and you can't but wet your pants / have a big smile at just how good climbing can be!

Seriously, have you done proper sport? Have you redpointed anything? Have you climbed until your arms are bursting and you fall going for glory or indeed latch that hold just when you think you can't?

In reply to ksjs:

Well Ok, but it was both polished and very greasy when I did it this year. To me that means not much fun. Admittedly it would be better when just polished.


Those hanging blocks you monkey up. Some of them wobble/vibrate. They are all you have for both holds and gear. I seriously considered not bothering, and I won't risk doing it again. Some one will one day get seriously hurt/killed on this route.

Anyway, there are way better E3's all over Pembroke in my opinion.

In reply to ksjs: Thanks for the recommendations. When I'm back in Pembroke in the spring/summer, I'll no doubt end up at St Govs and try some of those. I just hope half of Space Cadet (or any of the other loose routes) doesn't fall on my head.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I meant "not greasy" of course!

In reply to Curiously Austrian IP:

Now, I have been climbing for thirty years fairly extensively at a fair range of grades in all the major climbing areas of the UK except Cornwall. I know that the word "premier" is open to interpretation, but I think that under any reasonable interpretation I would have at least heard of if not climbed on any crag put forward as a serious contender for the premiership. I have only heard of half of those on your list them and only climbed on two.
You and I both agree that the finest climbing in the UK is on the Barra Isles. I really can't believe that two crags there have passed under my radar which have a greater claim for premier status than Dun Mingulay and Pabbay's Pink/Grey Wall.

Is this more constructive?
Are you less upset with me now?

In reply to Robert Durran:

Haha. I have just managed to dry my eyes. 'John Dunne Mingulay' is the other name for dun Mingulay (I think it's the original galliac name, that the more common term originated from).

Peado geo is the next geo to the south, with the ultra-classic E1 'Eagle Gravy'. I'm surprised that you haven't climbed at many of the others. I would particularly stress that you should get to Whitestone before you die.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

I have never heard it called that! At least that makes one crag on both our lists.

So is this between Dun Mingulay and Seal Song. It doesn't seem to be in Gary's guide. Might need to check the SMC journals.


Where is it?

In reply to Franco Cookson:
Hodge should defo be on the list.

I wouldn't fancy being a character witness for it

In reply to Bulls Crack:

Really? I find that quite astonishing. Good rock, nice sounds, amazing architecture and scale. Unusually sustained routes for the UK too.

In reply to victim of mathematics:


I get tired of people going on about polish.

The joy of climbing on polished rock is that you really have to know what you are doing. It rarely makes the *easiest sequence* harder but it means your technique needs to be spot on to find the easiest sequence. You have to apply force through your feet in the right directions rather than just letting sticky rubber and grippy rock cover up technical inadequacies.

Seriously, some of the routes at Malham are among the best I have ever been on *because* they are so unforgiving of sloppy technique. To climb them you have to climb them well, which is a joy in itself.

See polish for what it is - a challenge and an opportunity for you to up your game.

In any event, polish is only going to progress in one direction so you might as well learn to love it.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Presumable you meant to say "You should get to Whitestone, though you may die?"


Chris

In reply to Quiddity:

Well said.