UKC

Can anyone help; need to know what quals are required to head out canyoning in the U.K with over 18's?.

In reply to g.mannybn3:

Bit of a grey area, tends to be site specific: Ghyll in flood can be a completely different experience to the same Ghyll 3Hrs earlier.

If working for a provider, usually do 4 or 5 sessions with another instructor, to learn all the hazards etc.You need to be slick, there is a lot of potential for injury.

Don't think there is a specific proffesional qual at the moment, So the ability to display relevant competance. ML & Valid First Aid, possibly white water rescue cert etc all of benifit. If using ropes probably MIA or some sort of caving qual

In reply to butteredfrog:

Posted that before complete! The easiest thing to do would be to give MLTE a ring.

Cheers Adam

In reply to butteredfrog: thanks

In reply to butteredfrog:

in scouts (dont know what its like in the rest of the world) you need the seperate aspects, i.e. SPA for the roped sections if there are any, white water rescue certificate and hillwalking certificate and a first aid cert

dont know about the rest of the world though

In reply to g.mannybn3: there was an accident and subsequent investigation that was reported on here a while back. I think the conclusions of the report was that an mia plus white water was required. Will try to have a look later

In reply to g.mannybn3:

internationally its the CIC certification, which is pretty heavy stuff.

In reply to g.mannybn3:

It makes sense that the Caving Instructor's Cert is the most relevant though as they are caves without roofs really---I'd have though white water rescue would be as important though as it's highly skilled getting people out of fast moving water (alive anyway!)---not sure how much of this is covered by the CIC but I know a few so will ask.

In reply to g.mannybn3: this sort of thing has been done to death on this forum.

For any activities for over 18's, you are not legally required to hold ANY qualifications.

You've got to think about what would happen in court if you unlucky enough to end up there, after an accident. The court will consider whether or not you were 'qualified'. 'Qualified' does NOT necessarily mean paper qualifications/awards. They can deem you as being 'qualified' purely by your experience, skills and competence to do the job. Paper awards/qualifications will contribute to your level of 'qualification'.

You can have paper awards and still be a muppet with little experience.

The less qualified you are, the less of a leg to stand on you have in court.

There are no paper qualifications or awards for canyoning in the UK.

In reply to g.mannybn3:

Yep, and as previous poster---any quals would only be required for under 18s. Your level of competence with over 18 would relate to the duty of care expected but if you were employed in any way to lead a canyoning trip your competence through experience and/or quals would need to have been deemed sufficient to discharge the organiser's duty of care. As there is no standard UK qual for this, with under 18s it would probably be something like MIA or CIC plus possibly white water rescue as consultant/trainer who could sign off others to run the trips if deemed suitable and the trip had been fully risk assessed.

In reply to DaveBear:

ive done the CIC qualifications and its a mix of adapted rescue and whitewater, then about 50% meteorology and specific guiding stuff.
ive done several rescue and rope access courses and the CIC is easily the most full on - up there with military.

the whitewater stuff is cool but intense, and the level 3 guiding stuff is really good but full on. they dont fcuk about.

they assess really hard: leave a gate unscrewed and its over. the exams are strange too, lots of meteorological questions and tricks. you really need to study. then they do a stress test at the end.

the first module is 2 weeks non-stop, 10hr days. the next level is all on the road covering multiple canyons. you do a lot of vertical drill and team stuff, and a lot of time in cold water (its done out of canyoning season usually).
the rope work is really full on and unlike climbing. its essentially rescue turned into a sport.

its also expensive with lots of special gear and rules.
not for everyone, but a real sign of quality if you pass it all. 40% dont.

pm me if you want more details (but i wont give away the tricks)

In reply to ice.solo:

really? i was under the impression, here in france, that guides simply had to do very little canyoning (2 days i vaguely recall) (although it is obligatory) maybe all the heavy stuff is stuff they already need to learn for other areas of work.

In reply to ice.solo:

Cheers for that mate, yep it sounds pretty full on! Not planning to do it myself, saving up to get my MIA/MIC done at present, but I am going to do some caving this winter with a mate/colleague who's a CIC. Not done any for years so should be fun!

In reply to DaveBear:

Caving? Youre all nutters

If you nail the tech stuff in that youd be in good steed for the CIC stuff, tho w/w stuff will help.
Outside of europe i reckon its overkill, but as a ropes course second to none. Coming back to climbing seems so simple and great for alpine descents.
Also for good guiding techniques - getting a group thru a canyon is really complicated.

Enjoy the winter underground. Aint got the nuts for much of that myself.

In reply to g.mannybn3: Thanks everyone massive help, I expected the over 18s litigation be on your shoulders part and am grateful it was brought up, also really usefull info regarding CIC, rope guiding and white water rescue..am looking at ghyll/gorge walks in the lakes and want to equate for most extreme situations so to speak..if anyone can recommend a gorge walk or two in the lakes suitable for outdoor ed degree students in May i would love any tips...know its cheeky but u gotta ask the ppl in the know right

In reply to g.mannybn3:

One in Longsleddale is really good, and quite, Galeforth ghyll it's called, I've used it a few times, most of it is around grade 1 to maybe 2 at the most, but can all be run with attentive route guidance and spotting. The top section is hard (gr 3+) scrambling but it feels OK to miss it out. If you do the top bit definitely rope a group up it, but it'd be a bit hassly---best avoided really but fun if you're on your own i.e. not looking after a group! It's a nice winter route as well! Where are you based?

In reply to DaveBear: nice one davebear, sounds ideal, Im at Brighton uni.2nd yr outdoor ed student, land based expedition running for first years im looking at gorge/ghyll walking/caving/potholing in the lakes to go alongside a coursemates mountain bike and hill walking routes,
will be fun if we pull it off

In reply to g.mannybn3: I can put you in contact with a guy I worked for who runs Canyoning sessions who'll probably give you a good discount if there's enough of you. Drop me an Email.

In reply to g.mannybn3:

No worries---there's some good, quiet walks around that valley and I believe some top rated MTB trails (but I don't do those---bit of an issue with bikes due to being dragged ridiculous disyance around Britain on a bike as a small child on a whole series of torturous cycling 'holidays'!)

In reply to DaveBear: Hi,
we are going to Fort william instead, take advantage of MTB trails and some Nevis antics.

In reply to g.mannybn3:

This should be of interest

http://www.canyonguides.org/

In reply to g.mannybn3:

Vertical Descents based at Inchree nr Fort William www.verticaldescents.com

Cheers Adam

In reply to Kimberley:
A very helpful link, thank you


out of interest do u canyon yourself?

In reply to g.mannybn3: Hi. The British canyoning association and uk canyon guides has been established about 2 years now and has trained around 150 people in a whole number of courses from basic canyoning to canyon rescue and assessed guides.

Find us at canyonguides.org

We have set up the association in order to encourage canyoning throughout the UK. There are a number of meets arounds the UK planned where people can meet others go canyoning and workshop ideas and techniques.

UK Canyon guides includes a full range of tecnical courses and assessments. We have set this up with the help of the american canyoning association in order to gain best practice and a good level appropriate to the rest of the world.

We have also spent time becoming recognised by other bodies and this is something we are very keen to pursue over the next few years with the hope to become a NGB.

In reply to Ben Starkie:
Thanks for the reply.
Sounds brilliant, where are u based? Any recruitment drives going on soon? I would love to learn more.
Grant