UKC

Day 2 of snow in Inverness and I'm already fed up of driving behind comets on the Southern Distributor.

Clear your car of snow before you set out. This includes making sure the light clusters are clear of snow and ice. It helps if people can see your indicators. Clear mirrors and the windscreen. Note: a little strip of cleared ice along the front windscreen doesn't count!

Move off in second gear. Starting in first with your foot down means you're going to go nowhere particularly fast.

Leave plenty of distance between you and the car in front.

Brake gently and use engine braking where possible.

Try to keep moving even if you slow down to a crawl at lights, its better to try and keep the inertia going rather than stopping and starting all the time. (Leaving space between you and the car in front should help with this).


Any more?

In reply to Toby S:


Particularly when that car is mine!

Pedestrians: don't walk in the road if the pavement is icy. Cars drivers may well not see you in poor light and if it is icy may not be able to stop.

In reply to Toby S:

yep

one control input at a time
ie don't change speed and steer (unless your talking hand brake and steering input of course <grin>

drive smooooooooooooothly.

there are others, but best not used on the public roads

In reply to Toby S: not really a driving tip, but stick a pair of boots, a warm jacket and a flask in the boot. if you have to abandon the car you will be glad of them!

In reply to rallymania:

Ha

Actually its worth finding an empty carpark that hasn't been treated to have a 'play'. Of course you do so at your own risk

In reply to Toby S:


Most or all of these will get you points on your license and possibly fines too.

My tip would be to drive slowly and with a huge gap between you and whoever is in front of you. In snow and ice the stopping distance can be as much as 10 times the normal stopping distance on a dry road surface.

Keep some warm clothing in the car if going on a long journey or commuting to work, just in case.

In reply to Toby S:



Its also a very good place to practice skid control. Play and learn at the same time, always a bonus.

In reply to Toby S:

For a surprising number of drivers in winter, I suspect the best Top Tip is "Don't even bother trying, love. Leave it at home".

In reply to MG:

Cars drivers may well not see you in poor light and if it is icy may not be able to stop..

Yes.

There was a case (last year I think) where a young driver was descending a steep snowy hill and lost control. A pedestrian was hit and seriously injured. I think it was a country lane so there was no pavement. The court ruled it was the driver's fault as she was not in control of her vehicle.

If you cannot control your car in the conditions, you should not be driving - I think a lot of drivers ignore this.

In reply to Toby S:

I agree! (also, as someone said, this is illegal)

Unnecessary with snow tyres


Word! (one thing I'm a bit wary of now, is people being close behind me as having snow tyres I'll be stopping a lot quicker than they can...


Actually, if your car has ABS you may be better just using the brakes. I've been on a steep hill before when we started drifting off to the side under engine braking!

In reply to Toby S:

My top tip - if you start to skid dont brake. try and match your sliding speed with a gear to get a bite on the snow.
turn into the skid to maintain control - road position can be rectified once you have stopped the skid.

oh and if it looks bad then dont bother..!

In reply to Tim Chappell:

>For a surprising number of drivers in winter, I suspect the best Top Tip is "Don't even bother trying, love. Leave it at home".

It does annoy me that I battle 30 miles each way through snow and ice and colleagues that live within 2 miles or so can't make it in due to snow. Either they are lazy gits who can't make the effort or much smarter than me and having a sneaky day off due the weather. I can't work out which, so I suspect the later.

In reply to Adventure Medical Kits:

This is my particular favourite. Lots of people sagely quote it to approving nods, but very few people understand what it means. My own take is you'd have to be pretty daft, (or very clever), to do anything else.

In reply to Fultonius:


Agreed - Engine braking can be useful, but it will only slow the drive wheels resulting in uneven braking. Gentle use of the brakes will slow all four wheels.

Some more tips here,
http://www.smartdriving.co.uk/Driving/DefensiveDriving/weather/winter_motor...

I particularly like the one about going up small hills backwards- in a fwd car it puts the weight on the drive wheels!

In reply to Toby S:

I've never understood this - can someone please explain? Why try and move off on a slippy surface with a gear selected that makes the wheels turn faster for a given engine speed?

I always use as close to zero throttle in first gear as I can to get the thing moving and only change to second when it's rolling smoothly. If I'm driving our diesel car, then definitely no throttle and first gear, as gently as possible with the clutch.

In reply to Adventure Medical Kits:


This does not always work but give it a go. I've had some fun on a Driving Course where I was on a Skid Pad and the most important thing I learnt from this experience was that there isn't one Rule that fits all situations of skidding. If you have enough space, then you have to try everything that is possible within the space that you have to correct the skid.




Totally agree on that one.

I was in a car with a mate one Christmas Eve, heading to Trowbarrow. We were coming off the slip road from junction 34 of the M6. My mate, who was driving just looked at me and calmly said "I've lost it". He put his hands on the wheel and showed me that no matter which way he turned the wheel we were still gliding in the same direction. Thankfully the 'Give Way' sign stopped our progress as we ploughed into it.

We quickly pushed the car to the side of the road. Within a couple of minutes of us moving our vehicle another car skidded into the exact same position. Had we not moved so quickly, things could have got very interesting.

In reply to Toby S:

Don't know who will agree with me here but I think this one is a key message:

The coeffecient of friction between rubber and ice does not know that you are in a 4x4 vehicle, simply because it doesn't care. It will act the same no matter how many wheels are applying power.

In reply to Toby S:

Always check brakes and traction before descending from guide car park thru the torlundy forest.
Keep below 50mph on the laggan road - that way when the monarch of the glen appears out of thin air he will not go through yr windscreen.
You can't bump start a car at the etive pier road - it is pan flat.

(fresh battery / jump leads and snow socks are all worth having)

In reply to Dan Arkle:

I've always found it to be a good way of gently slowing, I'll also gradually apply the brakes if I need to stop or slow down a bit quicker. Seems to work for me anyways!

In reply to OwenF:

Absolutely. The majority of crashed cars I saw last year

In reply to OwenF:

The coeffecient of friction between rubber and ice does not know that you are in a 4x4 vehicle, simply because it doesn't care.

The driving forces are spread over four wheels not two. So, they can cope with the lower coefficient of friction better. Also, if one wheel spins, there are still three gripping and turning etc.

In reply to Ridge:
Bloody smartphone...
As I was saying, the majority of crashed cars I saw last year were expensive 4x4s. It's also worth pointing out that ABS doesnt magically stop you on sheet ice either...

In reply to nniff:

The idea is that in 2nd it is harder for the engine to make the wheels turn in the first place. So if a wheel gets a chance to start spinning, in 1st the engine can keep it spinning and accelerate the spin, but in 2nd it's harder for the engine to build up the spin and traction is more likely to be restored. As far as I understand it.

In reply to OwenF:

I like to think it knows and just chooses to take no notice.

In reply to nniff:



Because it reduces the torque going through the drive wheels (higher gearing, lower revs).

It also encourages a generally smoother take-off as you have to slip the clutch more.

In reply to OwenF:

Modify to...

A 4x4 vehicle with decent tyres will start up and accelerate perfectly fine on sheet ice. Have been there and have done it.

Stopping, however, is a very, very different matter. 4x4 does not help you stop (unless you get quite creative, and for this you need space).

In reply to rallymania:

Rubbish! You'd never get anywhere if you followed this absurd peiece of advice ;(

In reply to alexcollins123:


Much like the driver/occupant of the 4x4.

In reply to timjones:

You would... sideways

I did that this morning into the work carpark. Yanked the wheel right and put the foot down accompanied by me going 'hahaaaaaaa.....oh shite'.

In reply to John_Hat:

4x4 does not help you stop (unless you get quite creative, and for this you need space).

I have 4-Lo for steep slippy stuff, it does the engine braking for you and maintains a slow (below 10mph), steady pace.

In reply to Toby S:
Always take a hot cup of tea with you when you set out in the morning. If you keep it on your lap it keeps you warm and you can drink it while you're driving.

In reply to John_Hat:

Yea sorry, I was speaking specifically with regard to stopping.

The inability to get moving quickly on ice is rarely dangerous.

The inability to stop moving on ice is nearly always dangerous.

I can see it helping for getting moving, but I will argue to the death that 4x4 with ABS and magic will not help a BMW X5 going 60 from smacking me up the backside.

In reply to Toby S:

You will still get a parking ticket even if conditions are appalling. I abandoned my car in a car park and couldn't get it moving again until the next day. No sympathies from the traffic wardens.

In reply to Toby S:

if you are driving a BMW / Lexus / Jaguar -

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

(think it was year before last when I was walking/jogging 8 miles to work and would have to push 3-4 cars a day out of various spots. The vast majority being big heavy fancy cars. I did give up when I was trying to help a taxi driver when neither him nor his 3 passengers got out to help though - tw*ts)

In reply to birdie num num:

And if you spill it, then you know that you've wasted a good cuppa.

In reply to Scarab9: I've found BMWs very forgiving in the ice. Only got stuck once, but I have snow chains.... and managed to get up a completely ice sheeted hill on those with no problems.

Year before last I was decomissioning a couple of supermarkets and had the entire car park to myself to do handbrake turns on. Great fun!

In reply to elliptic:

OK-ish - but it's hard enough moving off smoothly on a dry surface in second, let alone on a slippy surface

In reply to Toby S:
Agreed, verrrry smooth, one thing at a time and CLEAR the bloody snow off your roof & bonnet too!

In reply to Toby S:
Keep the deicer and scraper inside the house, not in the car....Wotcha gonna do if the locks are iced up? ..

In reply to Toby S: ...and in the spirit of NumNumness. Always wear crampons inside the car. Upside down, on bare feet. That'll teach you to press on the pedals gently......

In reply to Scarab9:

Aye. Lee pretty much parked up his BMW at the beginning of the snow and left it until it all thawed

In reply to elliptic:

Surely if you slip the clutch more with associated revving to prevent the car stalling, you are going to end up spinning the wheels like mad.

I've never believed this piece of advice although I am interested in the theories behind it. My own technique involves just letting the clutch out really slowly in 1st with no throttle input at all.

In reply to thin bob: 'Wotcha gonna do if the locks are iced up? .. ' easy one for the boys!

In reply to Blinder: the only problem being is that if it is really cold you just get a thicker layer of frozen piss all down your car door

In reply to M0nkey:

This works very well with most cars these days that (all) have auto-chokes so they have higher-revs with zero throttle.

With older cars, this wasn't really an option, so moving off in gear 2 was a good idea.

Davy

In reply to nniff:

When out volunteering somebody discovered the van could be moved off in second or third quite easily, it went off slowly with hardly any momentum or jerkyness, the guy was usually more heavy footed than he was setting off in second or third.

I don't drive yet, but I think it's like setting off in too high a gear on a bike, where you set off pedalling really slowly and the wheel's unlikely to spin?

Tim

In reply to Tim Chappell:

Like my neighbour from across the street trying to go uphill on sheet ice. Apparently the best method is 6000 revs in first gear...who knew?!

In reply to nniff: the theory goes that you are dividing the torque by using a numerically lower gear, i.e. less turning effort going to the tyre. However with modern petrol engines with ultra light flywheels that can be negated by the need to rev the engine to avoid stalling in the higher gear.
Yesterday I pushed my neighbour up our hill (him in second gear, revving and spinning) then got in my own (petrol) Peugeot 207 and tiptoed up the hill in first gear, no problem at all....so your nearly-zero throttle and first gear seems to work better nowadays.

In reply to Toby S:

An interesting topic.

Are there any particular considerations for front vs rear drive?

Half the problem is that 4 by 4's tend to have huge fat tyres which are crap at biting into packed snow....... but sheet ice is not good whatever!

In reply to Toby S:

Yes, clear the snow off the roof as well otherwise if you are going downhill or have to slow down it may come cascading down the windscreen and blind you!

In reply to colinakmc:

I think you have it - in my last post I nearly started banging on about old advice relating to old engines - if you've got an old V6 maybe, but little hatch backs seem to go better moving off with the throttle on idle.

The wife's car is hopeless though - big fat tyres and a turbo diesel. Champion car is my daughter's old Polo - skinny tyres, light and no engine worth the name. It was family transport of choice last winter.

Front wheel drive over rear wheel drive, and if stuck reverse up a hill - (or get some chains)

In reply to Toby S:

The results rather depend on whether you have front or rear wheel drive.

This will be my first winter in a front wheel drive car. Initial thoughts based on this mrnings school run on icy lanes are that front wheel drive is a very silly, very dangerous idea. At least with RWD you can do something positive to keep the car poinbting in the right direction

In reply to Dan Arkle:

As far as I was aware using engine breaking for anything other than maintaining speed, for instance on a hill, is dangerous. Due to the way a diff works, often engine breaking involves breaking with only one wheel. This is bad. It is also difficult to correct if you start to skid. Use ABS. It will control breaking across all four wheels.

In reply to nniff: My mum's old front wheel drive hatch back fiat panda was always good in the snow.

Somebody who i've done a bit of volunteering with was saying that rearwheel drive BMWs aren't that bad in the snow, I think he was talking about putting them into gear and letting them drive themselves as it were, without much input from the driver on the excelerator.

I think he's the only person i've heard saying BMWs aren't that bad in the snow, I guess he could be onto something?

Tim

In reply to timjones:

How do rally drivers manage? Or are they just super talented?

In reply to Ridge:


Yeah, never quite got what else you would do. If your back starts swinging towards the edge of the road, say, and you don't do anything; when it gets some traction again you will be driving straight into oncoming traffic which doesn't seem a great plan.

The only thing I would say is be careful how hard you try to steer, as if you go too much when you do get traction it just flips you into a skid in the other direction. But generally deciding what 'too much' is when you're in a skid at 60 kmph is a bit of too much for the 99.9% of us who aren't pro-rally drivers! I suppose once you practiced skidding a car you are less likely to panic, but just driving defensively and not letting it happen in the first place is probably the best idea.

I went off the road last year for the first time in 9 Finnish winters, and it was one of the systemic failures: going round a corner at about 60 kmph - probably over confident in my tyres these days. Felt a bit of a skid, saw some people standing at the end of their drive, had time to think I don't want to end up going towards them, over compensated and braked turning the skid into the opposite. (Over) corrected again, and flicked the back again in the opposite direction - fished tailed once or twice more - fortunately I guess whilst loosing speed (studded tyres), and ended up in a ditch. Nothing damaged beyond pride.

My top tip: if you don't have a tow rope, at least know the word for one in the language of the country you are in!

In reply to Timmd:

Real rally drivers don't fanny about in front wheel drive cars

In reply to nufkin:

Rear drive, get some weight in the boot to help drive, bags of sand or grit, useful if you get stuck too

rear wheel drive is easier to drive sideways on snow at speed, but dont try it on the public roads, for mere mortals wheels spinning and going sideways is not recomended,

In reply to gear boy:


I never realised that some of our company van's had rear wheel drive till I was driving down a country lane last December at night.

I found the snaking quite unsettling, especially as it was a single track lane with exceptionally soft verges.

In reply to Toby S:

Most people drive far too fast in snow and ice conditions, because they lack the experience and skill to do so. This means they also lack imagination and don't appreciate that once they loose control the laws of physics take over and the vehicle will continue travelling in the direction it was going when control was lost until it collides with another object.

In reply to lowersharpnose:

and engine braking is all four wheels reducing the chance of uneven forces turning you sideways.

In reply to Toby S:

I've lived in some cold countries in my life (including Canada, where we had snow and ice on the roads for five months each winter) and attended several days of winter driving and skidding training on an old airfield. I would say the key things are:

(1) Fit winter tyres (or have chains with you): they make an all the difference.
(2) Always carry in the car a good selection of snow and ice scrapers, de-icing fluid, good winter outdoor gear including good mountain boots in case you have to get out and push your car etc.
(3) Always scrape and brush off as much snow and ice as you can from the outside of the car. This does not take very long, and one has not got to do it too thoroughly: if the sun comes out, and you have the windows clear, the interior will warm up and clear the rest of the snow and ice off the vehicle even if the temperature is far below freezing. If you leave the car covered in snow and ice, it will remain like an igloo; and the snow next to the car will turn to ice making it much harder to remove.
(4) Winter-driving Golden Rule 1: move your hands from standard 10-to-2 position to 9-to-3 and then never feed the steering wheel at all. Keep your hands glued to the wheel at 9-to-3. This way you always know where the neutral position of the wheels is, even if you can't tell by the feel (because of the lack of friction of the tyres on the ice). You need 9-to-3 to obtain enough movement of the wheel when your arms cross and meet each other.
(5) Winter-driving Golden Rule 2: keep your eyes on a position on the road far ahead of the car. This way, combined with the first rule, you will automatically steer the right way in the skid (without thinking about steering into or out of the skid, whatever that means: you don't have time to think anyway).
(6) Drive really gently and hardly use the brakes at all.
(7) If you do have to brake, pulse the brakes like an ABS system, so they don't lock the wheels up: with practice you can do this as well or better than ABS.
(8) For sustained cold, put a lower viscosity oil in the drive train.
(9) When parked, leave the mechanical hand-brake off, because it can freeze up.

In reply to John Stainforth:



Absolutely, I'd rather have a mercedes with big fat winter tyres on than a Volvo with its front wheel drive and standard tyres.

The message is slowly getting through, I was getting my car serviced at the end of October and the garage there had already sold 200 sets. (3 years ago it wasn't even part of their business) and the local tyre emporium had sold 50 winter tyres in a day the previous weekend.

This may be of interest to the OP:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=389636

In reply to nniff:

It took me three and a half hours to get from Brighouse (Rokt wall) to Skipton this evening, a distance of around 28 miles - and at least two hours of it was spent travelling about eight miles, over the tops past Queensbury. Lots of people going very slowly or going nowhere... people driving too close to the car in front, driving with foot down in first and going nowhere, skidding, etc. Oh, and hoofing it down the middle of the road between the cars moving slowly on either side... Moving off in second gear prevented skidding for me.

My top tip: remember that that peculiar banging noise is the ABS kicking in, rather than feeling momentarily flummoxed about it!

In reply to dan_the_dingo:

I think it's a trip to the scrappers for some steel wheels (for winter tyres) for me this weekend.

In reply to Tall Clare:

What percentage of them are UKC users with winter tyres who now are "expert winter drivers"?

In reply to TobyA:

But I thought *everyone* on UKC was an 'expert winter driver', certainly compared to all the 'other people' out there...

In reply to Tall Clare: As a community, we're just like Lake Wobegon, where all the women are strong, all the men are good looking, and all the children are above average. They all know how to drive in the snow there as well...

(for non-Garrison Keillor fans/Norwegian bachelor farmers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Wobegon )

In reply to Toby S:

…and if all else fails…….bail.

youtube.com/watch?v=Io1QHqXEeuI&

In reply to Tall Clare:

Everyone on UKC is an 'expert' full stop.

;0)

In reply to Paul F:


That was scary, especially the final few seconds where the driver was on the ground with the car hot on his tail.

In reply to Toby S:

Look ahead, plan ahead
Test the conditions regularly
Keep room around you and keep rolling
Keep slide angles small
Light touch on the controls, gentle braking, acceleration, fingertip steering
Park carefully, slope and road camber can ruin your day
Lights on and cleared
Autobox in appropriate mode, revs low, manual gears a little higher than normal to prevent lift-off skidding
Travel with a warm clothes, shovel and rope

A lightweight, FWD hatch on winter/snow tyres would also help but the approach above has kept me moving in a succession of poorly behaved RWD cars with little trouble.
jk

In reply to Toby S:

Consider sticking a warm jacket, walking socks, boots, hat, gloves in your car, small rucksac with hot flask, plus some chocolate. If you do get stranded / break down despite winter tyres, 4 wheel drive, driving skills of a God, and reflexes of a cat - then at least there's the possibility of walking to the nearest village, pub, farmhouse, and spending the night somewhere warm. Cars get very cold, very quickly in the winter, once the engine / heating stops.

In reply to Toby S:

In addition to the above - stick a book in the car! It's much easier t sit out a frustrating traffic jam with a book rather than get frustrated and try to get home.

I don't normally make tea every day for the trip to work - I'd never drink it and it would be a waste. However, I do tend to take a flask of hot water and a fruity tea bag in the glove box. Don't leave it in the car though! Last year I forgot and left it in the car, and the water froze over night, despite being in a Thermos, in the car!

My driving tip, other than taking a great deal of care is that, if there's nothing else to be done, you find yourself suddenly hitting sheet ice where there previously was none, and despite being very gentle on the brakes you still slide, then a final option is to get off the brakes and sink the clutch (counter intuitive and hard to force yourself to do!). I've done it once, and regained enough steering to get me out of trouble, and then very gentle breaking got me to stop.

However, there's nothing to substitute for care and patience, warm clothing and a light touch. Drive gently, and ease your way to your destination.

Tim

In reply to Green Porridge:
>

A pee bottle is another useful accessory if you get stuck for ages!

In reply to Trangia:

Yep, one of those lives in the car too - thankfully I've never had to use it, but if it's windy and -15C outside, I'd don't want to be getting out, thank you very much.

Tim

In reply to Toby S:

I've found that it's possible to make decent progress in snow on quiet roads. Practice makes it less stressful. From experience I've found-

Skinny tyres are much better than modern low profile jobs.

Never enter any corner with so much speed that you can't adjust your line or slow down as required during it. Slow in, fast out is better.

Don't brake and steer at the same time. Unless it's the handbrake ; )

If you can't see anything in front of you in a white out consider finding a side road to wait it out- or drive extremely slowly. If you keep driving you'll be lucky to avoid an accident.

The time I saw this proven was as a passenger in a Uni minibus. Twiggy was at the helm of the Leyland Daf 11 seater.
We were somewhere near Dromochter in a storm and suddenly a queue of stationary cars and trucks appeared 25 yards front of us.
Stopping was not an option and we glided up the wrong carriageway sideways for over a hundred yards before coming to a serene stop. The fact there wasn't a single car nor Tesco truck coming in the opposite direction was pretty miraculous.

In reply to Green Porridge:


I once saw the actor who used to play Kryton in Red Dwarf being taught to press the clutch while going around corners when driving on ice, in Finland or somewhere like that.

In reply to Timmd:

It does (or rather can) work, but it's properly scary and totally counter intuitive. As I said, I wouldn't recommend it as anything other than something of last resort, but last time I had a big slide, the relatively reliable thermometer on my car was reading -22C and there were sudden patches of fog.

Tim

In reply to Green Porridge: I have one of those cars which according to Mr Clarkson, has the engine in the wrong place.

Because of all the weight on the back axle, it does have wonderful traction when pulling away in snow, but if it starts to slip going round a corner, I defy even a Finnish rally driver to to get it back in line, and my overwhelming instinct is to either scramble into what can loosely be described as back seats, or just jump out of the car!!!

In reply to Green Porridge:I understand it's done because torque isn't going through any of the drive wheels, so they can't pull you in a funny direction, and with the wheels not braking I guess they can't lock and start to slide. I'm not a driver yet (i've been trying avoid being one but I need to for any jobs i'd like to do) but I find these kinds of things interesting. The mixture of mechanical things and the skills needed for doing something. Though it doesn't mean i'd be any good. ()

In reply to Timmd:

Well, the idea is, if you're skidding, you have very little directional control. It's not much harder for the wheels to slide sideways as it is for them to slide forwards when they're locked. If you press the brakes and lock up on ice, then turning the steering wheel does very little - the car's momentum keeps it going in the direction it was when the wheels locked. However, if you get off the brakes, and put the clutch in, then the wheels are essentially free to roll, so even the small amount of friction between the rubber and the ice gets them rolling again. If they're rolling, as opposed to locked and sliding, then they will steer, to an extent. Obviously, if you try to turn sharply, you're still going to cut loose and slide again, but it does give you more control than almost zero with locked wheels. However, it takes a lot of self control to stop yourself trying to press the brake pedal through the floor when you're sliding towards something solid! My advice is to try your damnedest not to put yourself in that situation in the first place. Don't be fooled, driving on snow and ice is possible, and can be fun if there's very little around, but in rush hour, when you're just going to and from work, it can require an awful lot of concentration, and be extremely tiring.

Tim

As an aside, it's exactly why a handbrake turn gets you to spin in such a fun way - you essentially are turning a corner, and your rear wheels are providing a sideways force to keep the back end where it's supposed to be, but yanking on the handbrake locks them, which means they slide sideways a lot more easily, and therefore, the back end "steps out".

In reply to Green Porridge:

What I saw was the clutch being pressed in before entering a downhill corner, to help with getting around it more easily, probably less stressfull to walk home.

In reply to Timmd:


That'd remove the engine drag torque from the 'drive' wheels so limit the tendency* for a fwd car to push wide or a rwd car to oversteer. Conditions are pretty bad if you're resorting to tactics like that... I'd have long since decided to stay in or more likely crashed into a curb/snowdrift and gotten stuck

*actually it'll increase the speed at which it'll do so albeit not by much

In reply to Toby S: My tip is that if you need to take tips from a website about how to drive, perhaps question if you ought to be out in the first place.

Saw two accidents this morning, but quite obviously people who hadn't a clue how to drive in slippery conditions.