UKC

I'm heading out tomorrow, so all info on today's conditions, especially in the Norries, gratefully received.

I'd like to know anything about Glencoe, thinking of Curved Ridge tomorrow.

In reply to Tim Chappell: its kite flying weather

In reply to Tim Chappell: I climbed into the loft to get the Christamas decs down - did it free without the slingsby ladder - solid 5c dyno off the door lintel.

In reply to Tim Chappell:

Presumably you're joking, because it's reading like a troll. Have you not looked at the weather warnings? And, even if it's a slightly improving picture over the weekend, I can't believe that anything will have consolidated enough for it to be suitable for anything more than a very carefully chosen hillwalk.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/2635167#extra-uk-content

In reply to Tim Chappell:

I did five routes on Dolphin Bay, nothing hard, but it was nice to be out in the December sunshine


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs: Smug git, you are. ;0D

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Surely you're joking?

In reply to Rog Wilko:

Indeed - I can't deny it!

What do you reckon tomorrow, Sea Breeze or Arhi?


Chris

In reply to Tim Chappell:

4 routes at Buoux but it was a bit too warm in the sun and I fell off a 6b+ slab.

E

In reply to Enty: Good conditions down in the Ariege,went up to Samba Pati and climbed a few of the routes, unlike yesterday which was too hot in the sun
Tony & Sarah

Anyone care to focus on the topic and say something useful?!

In reply to Tim Chappell:

I forecast an occluded front of braying geoffreys sweeping into Coire an t'Sneachda around 8am. Most slopes will be heavily loaded and communication will be widely tortuous.

In reply to Tim Chappell:

Yesterdays thaw on the west was followed by a sharp drop in temperature today and a clear night at present. I think there could be some good consolidation in evidence.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I'm puzzled; in what way do you think that snow and cold temperatures do not equate to good climbing conditions? There will be routes at all grades climbed this weekend.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

No disrespect, Gordon, but I'm a bit closer to the Norries than you are, and a clear sky and still, cold air in Dundee seem like good signs to me.

But don't believe me, believe MWIS. 25 mph winds, 30-70% chance of vis, -4-- that's not far as good as it gets in a Cairngorms winter, don't you think?

In reply to Andy Moles:



Thanks. I and my team of prolier-than-thou class-warriors will be on the lookout for this potential hazard.

In reply to royroybridge:


No no no-- there's a classic UKC thread developing here. All we need now is for someone to have a go on the subject of religion, or planes on conveyor belts, or how I'm really asking someone to marry me or something.

In reply to Goucho:


Well done that man. Did you get any bomber screws in? Was the turf frozen?

In reply to Tim Chappell:

At least Mr Richardson is ignoring the cynics and getting stuff done:

http://www.scottishwinter.com/

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

Well, obviously icefalls and easier ridges will be good, but I can't see how many classic gullies, with such a dump of new snow, will be OK. Surely lots and lots of unconsolidated powder, some of it on a layer of ice ? No?

In reply to Tim Chappell:

He happens to be able to climb at Grade VII on routes where there is no appreciable buildup of new snow.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


Did I say anything about classic gullies?

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:



And, moreover, as you've just admitted, there is an appreciable buildup. So even punters like me should find something to swing an axe at. No?

In reply to Tim Chappell: nein nein nein

Went to Creag Coire an Dothaidh (750m) at Bridge of Orchy today,

Attempted to climb Fahrenheit 451, not really a great choice of route for today. It does say in guide that it needs at least a weeks good freeze.

Turf and snow not frozen, ice was thawing quickly and pretty thin. Backed off after the first pitch.

No wind and clear skies for most of the day.

In reply to oly-l:

Ooh, look, a proper response to my query

Can't say I like the content, though. Where's my messenger-pistol got to?

In reply to Tim Chappell:

I'm talking about a build up of loose, unconsolidated powder snow. But I might as well shut up .. .

In reply to Tim Chappell: did a few routes on bowfell

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

But I might as well shut up .. .


I would never be so impolite as to suggest that.

<cough>

In reply to efrance24234: Which ones and how was the turf? Any info much appreciated.

In reply to efrance24234:

Nice one Elliot! Obviousley another rounded keen climber. Met you at Trowbarrow last month. Good to see keen climbers making the most of our weather. Wet and warm november... ticking extremes in the quick drying trowbarrow. early season winter conditions.... classic buttress routes.

Top effort

Woody

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I'm talking about a build up of loose, unconsolidated powder snow. But I might as well shut up .. .



Yep

Woody

In reply to MattG:

Steve Ashworth and Chris Stirling have headed up to helvelyn tonight, so you'll get a report of conditions up there soon.

Hope everybody has a cracking weekend, I'm working so an after work sortie is my only option.

Woody

In reply to Stuart Wood: Cool, well I'm heading somewhere in a few hours, not Gable tho, internet conditions report = crowds

In reply to MattG:

Have a cracker Matt.

Woody

In reply to Stuart Wood: cheers woody... was my first winter routes today we went to the north buttres and were hoping to do the gonomon VII,8 but it wasnt in... we ended up doing professor V,6 and left hand route IV, 5... the turf was soft making the crux of professor a little trickier..
elliot

Can anyone whose been up Curved Ridge in winter pass on some advice? I'm a bit worried about the slopes under Crowberry Tower and the summit slopes with the avalanche risk. Can you often find a safe route or is it a case where you have no option but to cross steep open slopes?
Thanks

In reply to Tim Chappell: May be wrong, may be right, but based on the info i got i reckon not much snow went down during the storm, huge winds blasted west/north west slopes clear. east to SE clearly going to be poor. Very cold so no cornice collapse or some such. Hopefully get an icer than normal easyish route in. I can live with that

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

My mate climbed in sneachda today and said the place was scoured in many places and the sheltered slab was not massive in volume or in poor stability. I am going up on Sunday.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Awesome day, Gordon. Blue skies, no wind, lots of ice, rather lean conditions, enough snow but not much buildup. The gullies were fine, and so were the buttresses. And the place was absolutely packed all day.

We did Aladdin's Mirror. It was probably a II in the conditions. You'd have loved it

In reply to Tim Chappell:

Was on An Teallach today, super weather and conditions. Thawing a little at sea level but still solid where it matters. Millions of deer on the road too.

In reply to Tim Chappell:

Curved ridge today. Heavy going getting in to the ridge this morning due to lack of traffic. Hard crust with 18 inches of powder below made for an arduous 2 hour approach....seriously hard going! After getting to the ridge itself it was highly variable, loads of powder which covered everything, sections solid III today.

Care required on exit slopes and evidence of instability, however swim through powder on the right was actually quite safe if energy sapping. Decent was safe but difficult due to same conditions as walk in....some consolidation needed...

In reply to Tim Chappell: I did the seam yesterday which had just the right amount of snow. There was some nice neve and frozen turf too

In reply to Tim Chappell: Enjoyed a belter of a day on a very quiet Aonach Eagach yesterday. Bit of a soft snow slog onto Am Bodach but once on the ridge itself we were very gratefull to the party in front doing all the hard work breaking trail. Fair wee bit of ice on rocks and slabs. Bright with sunshine until mid afternoon then it went all nice and Scottish with lowering grey cloud, rising wind with snow showers.

In reply to naffan:

Yeah, we saw you on The Seam. What a great route that is.

Quite a lot of night-shift action was going on as we left the corrie just after dusk-- lights on Invernookie and at the foot of The Slant, also a rope pretty deep in on something on the left of the Mess of Pottage, probably Pot of Gold or similar. And some folks showing lights high up on Twisted Gully or similar. Happy days

When we got to the foot of the upper tier on Aladdin's Mirror, top of the turfy easy bit in the middle if you know it, the upper tier did look very tempting. It looked like we would be able to have some fun up there-- hard mixed, but very well protected, so we could short-pitch it, lace it up, and not worry about coming off. But common sense prevailed and we went home instead.

In reply to Tim Chappell: Were you topping out at about dusk Tim? If so, hi

In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:


Yes, we came out at the top of Aladdin's Couloir, had a drink of water, then headed for the Goat Track. Was that you and partner we talked to, who'd just been in Twisting Gully?

In reply to naffan:

You looked to be moving pretty slowly for a mere scramble.

In reply to Robert Durran: early in the season innit old man

In reply to Robert Durran:

Huh! Call that slow? You should have seen us.

Admittedly we (or at any rate I) was deliberately taking it, well, deliberately, and trying to sort out lots of little things. It's been a while since I did any winter leading, even at the lowly level of Aladdin's Mirror. It was good to be well in my depth and able to concentrate on all my bad habits and all the ill-thought-out non-optimal methods and routines that I need to fix.

In reply to naffan:

Fair enough. I'm sure you'll be scrambling up IV's in fast style (without a rope of course) by the end of the season.

In reply to Tim Chappell: We went back in and got Hidden chimney on Mess of Pottage. Solid III today with a crux which wouldn't be embarassed on a IV route. Really nice route actually. Winds turned south and becoming a bit powdery on north slopes.

In reply to glaramara:


Result. Well done. Give me a bell when you want another blast up something.

I'll tell you a route I've never done that we'd both enjoy on the right day-- Ledge Route. But I expect you've done it.

In reply to royroybridge:
Curved ridge

both slopes are potentially lethal, your right to be worried, oh and don't forget the descent can avalanche too.

lovely route but check the avalanche report and think carefully about what it's telling you. excellent alternatives exist eg sron a lairg, or aonach eagach. both may or may not be safer, also dorsal arete.

hope you've had a good time

In reply to alasdair19:

What Alasdair19 said. This is actually why I've never done Curved Ridge-- because every time I've meant to the avalanche forecast has been a bit ugly.

In reply to Tim Chappell Its exactly 12 years ago to the day since I did Curved Ridge, the reason I remember it was on my 42nd birthday. Me and a couple of mates had been blown of the Ring of Steal in a blizzard on the Sat, Sunday morning morning dawned bright and white so of we went. lots of powder but no evidence of slab but my heart was still in my mouth until the summit cairn.

In reply to Tim Chappell: It was a great weekend Tim... I was in The Norries too, did Ewan Buttress in Lochan on Sat, which was full of unconsolidated powder on top of rock, not much turf (originally planned on doing Central Crack oute)..
Yesterday we did The Haston Line followed by Hidden Chimney... both routes were thin with a lot of powder. Made for great sport and tricky cruxes.

Cheers
Euge

In reply to Tim Chappell: I have but i wouldn't mind doing it again taking a slight variant start then last time. Also a good one for my better half who ain't done it, or indeed the Ben, almost unbelievably.

In reply to Euge:

Glad you had a good one. You in Stonehaven these days? Give me a buzz if you need a partner.

In reply to alasdair19:

Thanks for the advice - we did Curved Ridge on Saturday. There was a lot of avalanche debris around from a few days ago, but the snow seemed pretty solid on Saturday. The walk in was pretty hard going but luckily there were a few people in front to make a nice trench. The route was pretty variable - occasionally some nice neve but then also lots of deep powder. We managed to skirt Crowberry tower on some rocks and then the gully behind Crowberry Tower wasn't that steep and the snow seemed pretty stable.
On the descent there was again a lot of debris from a few days ago but it was quite safe on the day I think.

In reply to Tim Chappell: Yep, that was us. Nice day to be out.

Went to do Hidden Chimney but there were teams already on the direct start, The Haston Line and The Slant. Couln't be bothered waiting and just wanted to rub the cobwebs off so went up Jacob's Ladder but went up to the far right of the gully which was soft snow sitting on top of slabs and blocks which was sporting.

Head torches were visible on The Message and I think The Stirling Bomber after darkness came in pretty quick.

In reply to Milesy: We saw you from below. Looked quite sporting up the gully actually rather than a boring plod.

In reply to Tim Chappell:

No Tim... I'm in Carnoustie now, but still working in Aberdeen so weekdays for the wall is out as I'm always knackered, but keep meaning to get back to it if you're interested.

Cheers
E

In reply to Tim Chappell:
I climbed Invernookie on Saturday and Goat Track Gully. Both were in good condition if quite tricky with a mixture of ice, powder and neve. Goat track gully was spectacular with a frozen waterfall feature.

In reply to nigel pearson:

I done goat track gully early last year and the ice pitches at the first belay and second belays were really good.

In reply to Tim Chappell: I tried Iron Butterfly in Coire an Lochain on Sunday. No ice and very heavy powder made the crux pitch feel a lot harder than 3 and pretty bold. Some of the turf felt a bit dodgy where insulated by powder.

In reply to fincranston:

That's what I found on Ewan Buttress on Sat... t-Sheachda was in better condition.

In reply to Tim Chappell:

Did Haston Line into Hidden Chimney yesterday for a nice gentle first day out of the season. Will concur with what has been mentioned above - both cruxes in lean early season conditions but with cracks freely accepting gear so sporting, but safe.

The top of hidden chimney in particular was tricky for my short self, almost becoming an axeless affair with much hand-jamming, palming and bridging - a great technical exercise, whilst my lanky partner just reached over the top

Plenty other teams out enjoying Honeypot, The Message, Pot of Gold and The Slant (sorry boys, early bird and all that!) too.

In reply to freudy_love:
Did you find hidden chimney harder than the haston line? I've done hidden chimney early season a few times and haston line early to mid a couple of times, always found haston line a bit of a bugger and harder than the crux of many IV's (I guess it is short lived and protectable though) yet Hidden Chimney I've never found harder than the listed grade, that said I'm quite lanky.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Lots of folk do Hidden Chimney wrong, and find it hard as a result. You come in from the right and once you know the sequence, it's fine. Haston Line is tough early season but a doddle with a big build-up. Mess of Pottage is impossible to grade, since the easier routes can be a grade either way according to build-up. Just look at Yukon Jack which folk complain bitterly about, but me and others soloed it happily last winter at Grade III on ice.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Benchmark III,4. Anybody pleading for an upgrade (and I've heard a few) should get on some IV,5s to get a better impression of what the IV grade represents.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
I think I justifed the III,4 grade by saying that the crux is short and protectable no? Anyway I just checked UKC logbooks and it get's IV 4 in the new cairngorm guide doesn't it? If so, you should probably take the matter up with Mr Nesbit if you feel so strongly about it.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

I am a bit concerned about that sort of upgrade (I've also heard one suggested for Invernookie) as I think that it's creating a huge bandwidth in the IV grade. I suspect that the "problem" is that people are romping up IV,4 gully routes on snow-ice, then being surprised when a mixed III,4 is technically harder. They'd get horribly mullered on IV,5.

I've always felt that mixed moves are more technical and require a greater range of skills than their ice equivalent (on an ice IV,4 does one ever make a more complex move than reach up-step up?). This is a long-running contradiction but I don't think that pushing up the overall grade is the answer. If anything creating a few more III,5s might be the answer; I'd argue that routes like The Seam, Hidden Chimney Direct and Pygmy Ridge might be appropriate candidates too...

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
The thing I don't understand is quite why the technical grades on ice are so high. Take something like combe gully at IV 4, I'm not sure why it should get IV 4, if it's getting the IV grade because it's more dangerous than many mixed IV's but easier climbing, shouldn't it be graded IV,3? It would certainly fit better with stuff like haston line, or glovers chimney being III,4 IMO. Even taking the cascade on the Ben at IV,5, yes it's sustained and quite serious but there isn't any one move on it as hard as the crux on Haston Line, wouldn't it make more sense if it was graded V,4 (as the hearsay is that its harder than the crux pitch of many of the Ben nevis V ice routes). I suspect some of the reason the ice routes seem easier now adays is the advancement in tools and ice screws which for good water ice I'm sure will have made a big difference.

In reply to CurlyStevo: But you can't compare grading of ice routes and grading of mixed routes as they are a different kettle of fish. IV ice routes would get IV 4, because they are more sustained than grade III ice routes, not because they are more serious than IV mixed routes.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

Having done the Haston Line in thin November conditions, I wouldn't give the crux more than 3. As for mixed moves being more technical, grade IV ice can involve the same amount of bridging, smearing, foot and hand swapping, high steps, balance, delicate placements and steps etc - it doesn't always form a easy angled uniform slab.

In reply to Sonya Mc:

Not sure about that! Best just to think of miuxed and ice grades as two separate systems, which (perhaps confusingly) use the same sets of numbers. After all, rock climbing is almost as different from ice as snowed up rock is and we don't use the same grading system for rock climbing and ice climbing.

In reply to Jimmy56:

Care to give us an example (in average to good conditions)? I don't think so!

In reply to Robert Durran:
But there is an unecessary disparity currently right? Do you not think when people were climbing with drive in ice screws that couldn't (easily) be placed mid crux and were far less reliable, and straight shafted tools the ice climbs actually would have been harder and closer to the equivalent mixed grades?

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Cascade has seen quite a few fliers in recent years, to the best of my knowledge none of them have ripped the belay but there is definitely some scope for this. So yes, serious but I remember a similar scenario almost playing itself out years ago on Comb with crap axes and inadequate movement skills.

If you take Cascade direct (instead of creeping along the ramp) it is definately grade V ice-climbing, comparable to the main pitch on Hadrian's. It gets IV,5 because it's short, but is a fall from the main pitch any less serious than one off Hadrian's or the Point? Depends whether you go down to the Coire floor I suppose..

You know what to expect from it and so did I, so I didn't do it until I had grade V mileage and it still felt sustained and a little scary. But other people are clearly looking at the IV grade and not the tech 5 and consequently getting into trouble.

V,4 wouldn't seem right somehow; it would make it the same grade as Zero Gully which is (anecdotally) a protectionless horror-show with poor belays.

I think the crux of the issue may be that the split grade system is applied differently for mixed routes than to ice. On mixed it appears to be much closer to the rock equivalent, where the tech grade is for the crux move. On iced it appears closer to European grading where the latter number describes the overall physicality of the pitch (on easier ice there is often no discernable crux).

Easy to work with as long as you know that there is really no correlation between a cruise of IV,4 ice and consequent struggle on a mixed III,4.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Well, this depends on your definition of average conditions and routes will be formed differently on different days, but I certainly remember tricky moves with balance, foot and axe swapping and athletic high steps on Fain Falls. And very delicate placements on The Curtain.

But I'm not claiming equivalence or even that you can compare IV between mediums - just that climbing a IV is a skillful activity.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

You mean like when I started climbing! I think I have always found mixed V and ice V about the same overall (but for different reasons (ice scary, mixed technical). I still do - yes, gear has made ice relatively easier, but I have become more scared...

I just don't think there is a problem. We are not comparing like with like and everyone knows it.

In reply to Jimmy56:

Sounds like this was not "average to good" conditions!

In reply to Robert Durran:

It's a slab, best when covered in just enough ice to allow a delicate climber to tiptoe up - when it's thick it's probably time to do somthing steeper.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

You are forgetting that mixed climbing has also got far easier with modern axes, mono points, modern boots and much, much lighter gear.

In reply to Jimmy56:

You are evading the issue. I take it you concede the point.

In reply to Andy Nisbet: You are right re mess of pottage. perhaps its better to grade it as an early season crag (which I think you have done as the grades are pretty much spot on as a rule). mid to late season folk should be venturing on to much better crags!


rob durran, i moan about the new system as it really doesnt fit in with the huge variety of climbing Scotland offers. But it does the job really, as its never going to be an exact science. for high end mixed stuff perhaps the only real solution is M grades with an indication of danger, afterall the unique scottish conditions element and traditional onsight style in the higher grades is becoming somewhat of a grey area (pun intended!)

In reply to Robert Durran:

Well, I considered it good condition but I realise that you may not - so maybe it wasn't good example. A better example might be the ice cave in Orangeman's.

My initial post was just a reaction to Jamie's comments. While Jamie may feel that IV ice is just a cold walk uphill because of his abilities, I find it as tricky and technical as the mixed 4 moves I've done. However, you've convinced me that I shouldn't be comparing the two.

In reply to Tim Chappell:
Wow. Is that the great winter grading debate over in a nutshell already? How times have changed. Now where's Scott Muir?

In reply to Jamie Bankhead: I agree, I did Haston Line in powder conditions as we wanted a short route and III 4 was fine - a harder move than Invernookie but less sustained. Pygmy Ridge I found a fair bit harder the day before and would be more inclined to say soft IV 5 for the first pitch.

In reply to yer maw: Behave yerself Simo, you ready to get out of retirement?
jd

In reply to yer maw: tell ye what, if i read one more post about that absolutely rank rotten, completely irrelevant, contender for worst route ever, haston line I am resigning from UKC!

Anyone been out in the Northern Corries recently? Have tried looking around some blogs but can't find much info (other than silly hard stuff!)

Also the SAIS reports are starting on the 15th. Does that mean there will be a report posted tonight for tomorrow, or a report posted tomorrow for Friday?

Cheers

In reply to royroybridge: There will be a report posted tonight for tomorrow. http://www.sais.gov.uk/page_northern%20cairngorms.asp

In reply to Scott Kirkhope:

No sign of the avalanche report yet - sure it's starting tonight?

In reply to royroybridge: I apologise. I have just re read what they have posted and it says 'No avalanche forecasts issued from tomorrow (Sunday 11th) until Wednesday 14th. Daily forecasts issued from Thursday the 15th onwards.' I read it wrong, sorry.

Ah cool no worries - thanks.

So...anyone been up the Goat Track today or yesterday?

In reply to Tim Chappell:

Soloed Castle Ridge on the Ben today - very heavy snow cover which is starting to consolidate, though a fair bit of slab around in places. Heavy rime ice on the upper half of the ridge and a fair bit in the crux chimney.

Plenty of ice forming on the Ben too.

There's a photo here of the crux of Castle Ridge which I took today.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Hqg0BJKwkn8/TuokEcJjE_I/AAAAAAAABQw/cP6I90Kw9MQ/s...

James