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A friend told me he was in Coire an T Sneachda the other day and estimated about well over a hundred people, with ques under loads of routes. That very same day conditions over in Loch Avon basin, Lochnagar, the North west and countless other venues were superb. I just cant get my head around it. Why are so many winter climbers these days so unadventurous?
I understand that many beginners will gravitate towards the northern corries but come on, how about a bit of imagination. Believe it or not there is actually climbing to be had elsewhere!
I understand that many beginners will gravitate towards the northern corries but come on, how about a bit of imagination. Believe it or not there is actually climbing to be had elsewhere!
In reply to Dave Mclean:
may not be the reason, but it seems that most people I know who winter climb have to travel large distances with little to no notice (because of conditions) and get to do a handful of climbs a year. Without local knowledge or at least more planning time, it's probably hard to work out where to go other than the obvious places.
may not be the reason, but it seems that most people I know who winter climb have to travel large distances with little to no notice (because of conditions) and get to do a handful of climbs a year. Without local knowledge or at least more planning time, it's probably hard to work out where to go other than the obvious places.
In reply to Dave Mclean:
We've had the same conversation about Peak venues - why do people go to the same old places - Stanage, Froggatt, Burbage North? And I think it's partly as Scarab9 says but also that these places are pretty damn good so if you're going to travel a distance to somewhere, you want to go to places you know will be worthwhile. And they are damned good.
We've had the same conversation about Peak venues - why do people go to the same old places - Stanage, Froggatt, Burbage North? And I think it's partly as Scarab9 says but also that these places are pretty damn good so if you're going to travel a distance to somewhere, you want to go to places you know will be worthwhile. And they are damned good.
In reply to Dave Mclean:
Why not?
It takes 45 minutes to walk in to as opposed to a couple hours and is good with the limited daylight hours?
Take a chill pill man.
Why not?
It takes 45 minutes to walk in to as opposed to a couple hours and is good with the limited daylight hours?
Take a chill pill man.
In reply to Scarab9: I do understand what you are saying but these days with endless reports and better weather forcasts than ever i still feel there is a total lack of imagination. I've seen ques of people under routes in the northern corries when there is plenty of other routes with no one on them. How bizzare?
In reply to Dave Mclean: Queueing for a Winter route doesn't sound very fun
In reply to Dave Mclean: Horses for courses, whatever floats yer boat, each to their own and aw that. Personally I prefer a wee bit of solitude in the winter hills given a choice.
In reply to Dave Mclean:
I'd agree with you. Pretty much every climbing blog is identical as are the people writing them. I don't mean that personally but everyone talks the same, thinks the same, knows the same, follows the same fashion and goes to the same places.
I like Simon Richardson's site though and Henning's is also very good. Many blogs seem to read like "we went to X with Y where we did Z". I'd like to read a bit more stuff about politics of the hill, deer numbers, trees, nature etc but it seems that many climbers like image a bit too much. (Me included)
I'd agree with you. Pretty much every climbing blog is identical as are the people writing them. I don't mean that personally but everyone talks the same, thinks the same, knows the same, follows the same fashion and goes to the same places.
I like Simon Richardson's site though and Henning's is also very good. Many blogs seem to read like "we went to X with Y where we did Z". I'd like to read a bit more stuff about politics of the hill, deer numbers, trees, nature etc but it seems that many climbers like image a bit too much. (Me included)
In reply to Dave Mclean:
I think breeding has a lot to do with this behaviour, it's genetic passed down from one bumbly to the next, thier migration patterns are so predictable, safety in numbers, the homo bumblicus cramponicus is becoming a bit of a problem in the northern corries, Ben nevis, coe etc, large herds observed near car parks etc, is a cull the solution?
I think breeding has a lot to do with this behaviour, it's genetic passed down from one bumbly to the next, thier migration patterns are so predictable, safety in numbers, the homo bumblicus cramponicus is becoming a bit of a problem in the northern corries, Ben nevis, coe etc, large herds observed near car parks etc, is a cull the solution?
In reply to Saor Alba:
Or maybe all the stuff about politics and the rest takes longer to write, and people would rather spend that extra time on the hill...
Or maybe all the stuff about politics and the rest takes longer to write, and people would rather spend that extra time on the hill...
In reply to Dave Mclean: There are other places to winter climb?
In reply to hexcentric: I'm totally chilled, dont get me wrong this is not a gripe, just an observation.
I dont think it has anything to do with daylight hours as this happen through out winter but more to do with the short walk in and comfort of lots of others around them.
I dont think it has anything to do with daylight hours as this happen through out winter but more to do with the short walk in and comfort of lots of others around them.
In reply to Dave Mclean:
If you knew of anywhere that was in condition yesterday then count yourself in the very select few!
If you knew of anywhere that was in condition yesterday then count yourself in the very select few!
In reply to Dave Mclean: Bit of an odd experience...a friend and I walked in to the Cobbler to climb Jughandle, a route which has had six logged ascents and is on no wishlists. That day we arrived half an hour or so before another team who had also walked in to climb it...on a day when conditions were not ideal on that route.
Like sensible people, they went and did the SE ridge instead as opposed to hanging around getting cold.
Like sensible people, they went and did the SE ridge instead as opposed to hanging around getting cold.
The honey pots are great, every one should climb there, leaving the rest of Scotland to me and mine
In reply to Dave Mclean: Chill dude. Not everyone has the time or inclination you have. I'm sure they could think you equally mad - why add an extra 3 hours of walking onto a winter climbing day?
In reply to Saor Alba:
Jim
> (In reply to Dave Mclean)
>
> I'd agree with you. Pretty much every climbing blog is identical as are the people writing them. I don't mean that personally but everyone talks the same, thinks the same, knows the same, follows the same fashion and goes to the same places.
>
>
Really? http://www.scottishclimbers.blogspot.com/>
> I'd agree with you. Pretty much every climbing blog is identical as are the people writing them. I don't mean that personally but everyone talks the same, thinks the same, knows the same, follows the same fashion and goes to the same places.
>
>
Jim
In reply to Dave Mclean: Suits me, long may it remain that way
In reply to MattG: Interesting: I have been winter climbing in Scotland off and on for 26 years yet I still persist in SNCL, Northern Coires, Ben Nevis, Udlaidh. A rough count tells me I have climbed outwith in maybe ten other locations, but probably only a dozen or fifteen times: ten per cent of climbing days. And I think I am someone who is more willing than most to take a chance on a lower crag or a more obscure place.
In reply to jameshiggins:
Yeah, really. Don't get me wrong - it's all good stuff but very similar to everyone else. Same format, same style of writing about the same subject hosted on the same platform.
Yeah, really. Don't get me wrong - it's all good stuff but very similar to everyone else. Same format, same style of writing about the same subject hosted on the same platform.
In reply to Roberttaylor:
I think I know that other team. They also went in the week before to do that route to find another team on it!
I think I know that other team. They also went in the week before to do that route to find another team on it!
In reply to Saor Alba:
At the risk of getting sucked in, I'm unsure what your gripe is. Your original post states that most climbing blogs are the same because the central theme is, erm, climbing rather than conservation issues. Very few climbers will have the knowledge or understanding to rationally discuss "deer numbers" for example. If your prime interest is the latter I strongly suggest you follow an SNH blog or the like.
As for the fact that all blogs are on the same platform, that's because Google makes it very easy for us. My interest is in exploring the cliffs and crags, not blog platforms!
I'm surprised you haven't mentioned that there are no climbing blogs in Gaelic. But perhaps that's another thread?
Nollaig chridheil
Jim
> (In reply to jameshiggins)
>
> Yeah, really. Don't get me wrong - it's all good stuff but very similar to everyone else. Same format, same style of writing about the same subject hosted on the same platform.
>
> Yeah, really. Don't get me wrong - it's all good stuff but very similar to everyone else. Same format, same style of writing about the same subject hosted on the same platform.
At the risk of getting sucked in, I'm unsure what your gripe is. Your original post states that most climbing blogs are the same because the central theme is, erm, climbing rather than conservation issues. Very few climbers will have the knowledge or understanding to rationally discuss "deer numbers" for example. If your prime interest is the latter I strongly suggest you follow an SNH blog or the like.
As for the fact that all blogs are on the same platform, that's because Google makes it very easy for us. My interest is in exploring the cliffs and crags, not blog platforms!
I'm surprised you haven't mentioned that there are no climbing blogs in Gaelic. But perhaps that's another thread?
Nollaig chridheil
Jim
In reply to Dave Mclean:
I think that maybe the old climbing mantra of "because it's there" should probably be replaced with something like "because it's convienent", if you see what I'm getting at.
I think that maybe the old climbing mantra of "because it's there" should probably be replaced with something like "because it's convienent", if you see what I'm getting at.
In reply to PaleMan: Dont be so presumptuous , he had been soloing over in Coire Sputan Dearg and was on his way back to the car via Sneachda. Both adventuous and imaginative would'nt you say Paleman?
In reply to jameshiggins: I really enjoy your blog Jim, your accounts of you and your friends adventures is highly entertaining. Keep it up.
In reply to Dave Mclean:
Dave,
It's quite simple, it's because people follow each other like sheep. That's why you see so many identical idiots on so-called reality T.V. Watch how people scream on telly and jump up and down saying "O.M.G., O.M.G." Pure androids and a product of the moron magnet (telly) and too much Facebook and other inane crap.
Too many climbers, these days, do the same. e.g. Any forum subject asking where's best to climb in the Lakes will result in Shepherd's Crag being mentioned the most, which is plain stupid. The same can be said for a winter conditions thread, when Helvellyn and Great End will be top of the list.
Those places do not offer the best climbing. They do, however, offer the most popular, due to ease of access, and lack of imagination and thought. The Fell and Rock Winter guide to the Lakes proves this.
Yes, Helvellyn and Great End are often in condition more than most other areas earlier, but last winter they weren't, but they were still the ones everyone wanted to know about.
Like you say, it's the same in Scotland. Baaa, baaa.
> A friend told me he was in Coire an T Sneachda the other day and estimated about well over a hundred people, with ques under loads of routes. That very same day conditions over in Loch Avon basin, Lochnagar, the North west and countless other venues were superb. I just cant get my head around it. Why are so many winter climbers these days so unadventurous?
>
> I understand that many beginners will gravitate towards the northern corries but come on, how about a bit of imagination. Believe it or not there is actually climbing to be had elsewhere!
>
> I understand that many beginners will gravitate towards the northern corries but come on, how about a bit of imagination. Believe it or not there is actually climbing to be had elsewhere!
Dave,
It's quite simple, it's because people follow each other like sheep. That's why you see so many identical idiots on so-called reality T.V. Watch how people scream on telly and jump up and down saying "O.M.G., O.M.G." Pure androids and a product of the moron magnet (telly) and too much Facebook and other inane crap.
Too many climbers, these days, do the same. e.g. Any forum subject asking where's best to climb in the Lakes will result in Shepherd's Crag being mentioned the most, which is plain stupid. The same can be said for a winter conditions thread, when Helvellyn and Great End will be top of the list.
Those places do not offer the best climbing. They do, however, offer the most popular, due to ease of access, and lack of imagination and thought. The Fell and Rock Winter guide to the Lakes proves this.
Yes, Helvellyn and Great End are often in condition more than most other areas earlier, but last winter they weren't, but they were still the ones everyone wanted to know about.
Like you say, it's the same in Scotland. Baaa, baaa.
In reply to Conquistador of the usless:
>I think breeding has a lot to do with this behaviour, it's genetic passed down from one bumbly to the next, thier migration patterns are so predictable, safety in numbers, the homo bumblicus cramponicus is becoming a bit of a problem in the northern corries, Ben nevis, coe etc, large herds observed near car parks etc, is a cull the solution?
Loving your work, sir. Chapeau.
>I think breeding has a lot to do with this behaviour, it's genetic passed down from one bumbly to the next, thier migration patterns are so predictable, safety in numbers, the homo bumblicus cramponicus is becoming a bit of a problem in the northern corries, Ben nevis, coe etc, large herds observed near car parks etc, is a cull the solution?
Loving your work, sir. Chapeau.
In reply to Dave Mclean:
All the reasons have been covered above - but we've all been there, the long drive, the three hour walk in, the sogginess, then you get to the bottom of something described as an "atmospheric cliff" and its a soggy hillock with no ice on. Also I've done a 3* route on a remote hill that was frankly a generous 1* on the NF of the Ben. If it was a big hill with big routes, it'd be in the guidebook.
P.S. ssh
All the reasons have been covered above - but we've all been there, the long drive, the three hour walk in, the sogginess, then you get to the bottom of something described as an "atmospheric cliff" and its a soggy hillock with no ice on. Also I've done a 3* route on a remote hill that was frankly a generous 1* on the NF of the Ben. If it was a big hill with big routes, it'd be in the guidebook.
P.S. ssh
In reply to Removed User:
> (In reply to Removed UserDave Mclean)
> [...]
>
> Dave,
> It's quite simple, it's because people follow each other like sheep. That's why you see so many identical idiots on so-called reality T.V. Watch how people scream on telly and jump up and down saying "O.M.G., O.M.G." Pure androids and a product of the moron magnet (telly) and too much Facebook and other inane crap.
>
Have you ever considered Diazepam? I've heard it's the best thing for the Christmas period? > [...]
>
> Dave,
> It's quite simple, it's because people follow each other like sheep. That's why you see so many identical idiots on so-called reality T.V. Watch how people scream on telly and jump up and down saying "O.M.G., O.M.G." Pure androids and a product of the moron magnet (telly) and too much Facebook and other inane crap.
>
In reply to ClimberEd:
No need to get all Tourettes!
No need to get all Tourettes!
In reply to Tdubs:
Well, sir, without tourettes, as a far as I can understand this is someone moaning that lots of beginners go to the 'best place for beginners'.
Which strikes e asa truism and an internet rant. So really, yawn level boring and he is lucky I gave him the time of day to reply.
If he is local and has a big problem them he should know some local spots. If he doesn't then he'll just have to queue.....
Well, sir, without tourettes, as a far as I can understand this is someone moaning that lots of beginners go to the 'best place for beginners'.
Which strikes e asa truism and an internet rant. So really, yawn level boring and he is lucky I gave him the time of day to reply.
If he is local and has a big problem them he should know some local spots. If he doesn't then he'll just have to queue.....
In reply to ClimberEd:
And there I was thinking that one day I'd win the lottery, buy a pirate ship and fill it with rum and sluts, fly Rod Stewart in once a week to perform to my crowd of beauties (We would indeed be sailing) and he'd bring a Ducati with him so that Rod could set me and the bike on fire and I could ride it off the boat into the Pacific, and one of the wenches could throw me a rope ladder, I'd climb up and be met by Cypress Hill and Sir Philip Green snorting filthy South American poverty-powder of some supermodels puppies, and shit would get off the chain while me and Love (do you remember them?) would just crack open a bottle and perhaps retire to my cabin which would smell of rich mahogany and original first editions of collated Dickens' while I would read lines from the Bhagavadgita to beautiful ladies.
But f*ck it, I'd love for you to spout shite at me.
> (In reply to Tdubs)
>
> and he is lucky I gave him the time of day to reply.
>
>
> and he is lucky I gave him the time of day to reply.
>
And there I was thinking that one day I'd win the lottery, buy a pirate ship and fill it with rum and sluts, fly Rod Stewart in once a week to perform to my crowd of beauties (We would indeed be sailing) and he'd bring a Ducati with him so that Rod could set me and the bike on fire and I could ride it off the boat into the Pacific, and one of the wenches could throw me a rope ladder, I'd climb up and be met by Cypress Hill and Sir Philip Green snorting filthy South American poverty-powder of some supermodels puppies, and shit would get off the chain while me and Love (do you remember them?) would just crack open a bottle and perhaps retire to my cabin which would smell of rich mahogany and original first editions of collated Dickens' while I would read lines from the Bhagavadgita to beautiful ladies.
But f*ck it, I'd love for you to spout shite at me.
In reply to Dave Mclean: "politics of the hill, deer numbers, trees, nature etc" PMSL
if you want a blog like that check ou the real Dr Gavin Macfie's blog 57degrees North. Best blog in web world. Analytical, thought provoking and often hilarious, with a recurring theme and analysis of taking dumps in the great scottish outdoors. All delivered in Gav's unique and sometimes warped literary excellence. brilliant!
Jim Higgins, you guys have the best winter blog now, honest and down to earth stories of real climbers doing real routes, nice one! I get tired of the elite blogs where every route at the cutting edge is matter of factly nailed, and these same routes always seem to be good fun.. BORING!!!!!!!!
if you want a blog like that check ou the real Dr Gavin Macfie's blog 57degrees North. Best blog in web world. Analytical, thought provoking and often hilarious, with a recurring theme and analysis of taking dumps in the great scottish outdoors. All delivered in Gav's unique and sometimes warped literary excellence. brilliant!
Jim Higgins, you guys have the best winter blog now, honest and down to earth stories of real climbers doing real routes, nice one! I get tired of the elite blogs where every route at the cutting edge is matter of factly nailed, and these same routes always seem to be good fun.. BORING!!!!!!!!
In reply to jameshiggins:
Calm the beans! No gripe at all. I'm just pointing out that most of the blogs are very similar. Some stick out from others in terms of writing but with so many at it, not sure why, there is going to a be a lot of dross. If you then couple a lot of samey blogs to people going to the same places it just fades into one after a while.
I had a climbing blog in Gaelic but I gave up as I couldn't be bothered doing it after a while and it became a bit of a hassle.
The general point I am making is that it would be good to get a bit more rounded knowledge of hill matters of which climbing is only one.
Calm the beans! No gripe at all. I'm just pointing out that most of the blogs are very similar. Some stick out from others in terms of writing but with so many at it, not sure why, there is going to a be a lot of dross. If you then couple a lot of samey blogs to people going to the same places it just fades into one after a while.
I had a climbing blog in Gaelic but I gave up as I couldn't be bothered doing it after a while and it became a bit of a hassle.
The general point I am making is that it would be good to get a bit more rounded knowledge of hill matters of which climbing is only one.
In reply to ClimberEd: Something tells me you wouldn't be so aggressive if you met me face to face. I have already stated that i understand why beginners might use that corrie thats not what i'm talking about. Pay attention to what the thread states rather than being rude to me. You never know, we may meet in the hill one day, maybe even in Sneachda. Merry christmas
In reply to Dave
He started a thread not so long ago about having a 'personallity clash' at work...
After reading his comments on UKC over the years, doesn't surprise me in the slightest....
He started a thread not so long ago about having a 'personallity clash' at work...
After reading his comments on UKC over the years, doesn't surprise me in the slightest....
In reply to Dave Mclean:
I think that is a little unfair. most people don't have easy access to the hills and have limited time and hence will quite sensibly go to the most reliable venues. It is of course possible to have epic adventures anywhere including the norther corries.
There are brilliant routes elsewhere but to do them you need more knowledge, more time and a bit of luck.
Its fine going somewhere and finding it diappointing or out of nick if you're going out in a few days time but a bit of a downer if its you're one trip of the year.
Its only climbing its about having fun.
> Why are so many winter climbers these days so unadventurous?
>
>>
I think that is a little unfair. most people don't have easy access to the hills and have limited time and hence will quite sensibly go to the most reliable venues. It is of course possible to have epic adventures anywhere including the norther corries.
There are brilliant routes elsewhere but to do them you need more knowledge, more time and a bit of luck.
Its fine going somewhere and finding it diappointing or out of nick if you're going out in a few days time but a bit of a downer if its you're one trip of the year.
Its only climbing its about having fun.
In reply to niallk: They seemed like nice guys, I hope they get it done this season! We followed their tracks to the top via SE ridge.
In reply to Dave Mclean:
Believe it or not there is actually climbing to be had elsewhere!
Wheesht man
Believe it or not there is actually climbing to be had elsewhere!
Wheesht man
In reply to Dave Mclean: I find it ironic that people say they go to the usual places to save time, due to a shorter walk-in, then they waste time waiting to queue for a route. Personally, I hope they all continue to do so, leaving elsewhere nice and quiet.
In reply to Removed User: Only get up to Scotland once maybe twice a year and always end up in the same old places The Ben And Glen Coe don't mind a walk in of about 2 1/2 hours so where else should I be lookig for a change, only have the Scotish winter climbed guid but would not mind buying another guide if it would get me somewhere diffrent.
In reply to Dave Mclean:
http://scottishclimbers.blogspot.com/2012/01/same-old-venues.html
Jim
> Why are so many winter climbers these days so unadventurous?
>
> I understand that many beginners will gravitate towards the northern corries but come on, how about a bit of imagination. Believe it or not there is actually climbing to be had elsewhere!
>
> I understand that many beginners will gravitate towards the northern corries but come on, how about a bit of imagination. Believe it or not there is actually climbing to be had elsewhere!
http://scottishclimbers.blogspot.com/2012/01/same-old-venues.html
Jim
In reply to Dave Mclean:
I suspect that just as many are still adventurous - just that they are now outweighed by those that want a quicker fix.
I suspect that just as many are still adventurous - just that they are now outweighed by those that want a quicker fix.
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