UKC

Hello all

We have been planing a trip to Nevis for our first go at winter climbing , at fist I was very keen and excited about the trip but as the planning has taken shape and the lists of kit that we don't have grow longer , the expense of this trip is working out at around £1845 for a week and our kit...
Now my main thought is that we will end up going to Nevis for a week , which is a 10 hour drive, and would of spent the best bit of 2k , and end up with poor weather and conditions and not getting any climbing done ..

I was wondering is there stuff to do when the conditions are not good on Nevis, I really wouldn't want to go to all this trouble and not do anything ???

Thoughts please

In reply to AndyE9:

Wow. I'm not asking for a breakdown, but how do you get to that kind of total? Are you going on a course or hiring a guide or something?

PS If I spent that kind of money, I would want to be in the Alps in July with a much better chance of decent weather!


PPS I went to the Alps last summer and it cost me a third of your total for a trip to Scotland. I'm just not seeing how it can be that expensive. Are you staying at the Corpach Hilton or what?

Ok my maths might not be 100% but my list so far

Lodge 325
Fuel. 250
Jades boots 210
Jades crampons 125
My crampons 125
Ice screw 210 for 6
My axes 180
Jades axes 180
Gloves 100
Some base layers 40

Think that's it at the mo , I have the rest of the kit
See I am having a hard time justifying spending this money as we could climb the rest of the year ..

In reply to AndyE9:


So it's not stuff just for this trip-- a lot of it's long-term investment. Unless you're renting-- and if you are, let me urge you not to, and thereby effectively cut the cost of all this stuff straight away!

The large portion of the cost is kit , which is stuff that will keep and will get used time over , but this obviously adds to the overall cost .

I wasn't planning on renting any kit , I much prefer to have my own .. If we go to Nevis and don't get to do much we won't be able to do a return trip till next year .

In reply to AndyE9:

Don't obess with The Ben, there are other venues and some might be in better condition and/or more appropriate for an inexperinced leader and a young partner.

In reply to AndyE9: If you get the axes and crampons in good nick but second hand you could save a lot of money and get better kit, with this sort of kit as soon as it's been used once it looses 20 percent. Also for your fist trip you won't need 6 ice screws. There is very few routes under grade IV and not that many under V that need that sort of number and they are easily avoided, I'd go for 3. Also lodging there's a Lot of bunkhouses that will take last minute orders on twin rooms for about 18 quid each especially mid week.

In reply to AndyE9: Which week were you thinking? the time of year makes a big difference mid feb to early march tends to be the best bet.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

According to this thread

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=487202&v=1#x6685870

He needs somewhere for 4 people so even at £18 a night a bunk house is not a cheaper option for a week.

Thanks guys , yes there is 4 of us going to make the trip have looked at what is the best or more affordable way of doing this and I can't find it

Where bouts is in condition when Nevis is not looking good , wanted to push up some of the classics like somthing which is a bit of a challenge I am leading up to E2 and my daughter seconds me , she climbs really well prob better than me lol .. We have done a fair bit of dry tooling so really wanted to get on some ice

I have looked at second hand kit , and not really found much that I would be happy with but will keep an eye out

I can swallow the expense if I get a good week in , but if I go to all the trouble and expense and do very little or nothing , I think I would be gutted

In reply to AndyE9: No offence but Summer leading doesn't really equate to winter and a bit of dry tooling isn't really a proper apprentership especially for ice. Learn your skills well and well paced would be my advice.

In reply to AndyE9:

Planning a trip and then conditons not playing along is one of the joys of winter climbing - whether in Scotland or the Alps

If it's start of Feb your coming then there "should" be plenty of stuff to do, just be flexible on your choice of mountain - it's not too far to drive from Ben Nevis to Glencoe/Southern Highlands or Cairngorms

If you are staying for a week then you will be going well to climb every day anyway even if conditions are stonking - walk in's with heavy sacks and long days do take their toll - or perhaps I am just getting soft

Get yourself a general guidebook for winter climbing in Scotland so you are not just restricted to Ben Nevis, something will be in condition somewhere, it's just finding it...

In reply to Tim Chappell: Corpach Hilton - brilliant!

In reply to AndyE9: I think you'd have a better chance of having a good week if you broadened your options a bit. Going with the intention to climb classic nevis ice might work out fine but generally in winter the more you keep your options open the more likely you'll be to have a good time. I wouldn't book anywhere to stay in advance.

There's plenty of great days to be had away from Ben Nevis or there'll always be places you can get out and spend a day practicing winter skills and big hill days to get some winter fitness down and practice navigation.

As others have said, there are cheaper ways of getting the kit, it's a lot to spend on ice screws depending on what grades you're looking at, there's not many people that would jump onto a grade V ice route in their first week and you'll not need that many for easier routes.

At the end of the day it might be properly dismal the week you choose, the last 2 weeks and one half week I've booked away have resulted in 2 routes, a lot of time sitting miserable at home and few sleepless nights knowing I wasn't going to get anything done while a storm tries to tip the car over! It's not too bad if you can get out at the weekends but investing all that money for one week is always going to be a gamble, especially if you pick the routes and location you're going for months in advance!

Ben

Makes sense , tho I wanted to climb some classics am not stuck on the thought am normaly flexiable with what we do .

I know that dry tooling is not the same as climbing on ice or mixed , but surly a good way to train

Still don't know what I'm going to do is going to be a lot of money ..

In reply to AndyE9: There's classics everywhere you go and hidden gems if you go further afield. Add Scottish Winter Climbs onto your list of things to buy and it will give you a taste of other options that the Ben.

Just keep your eyes on conditions the week and days running up to your tip and you'll get an idea of where is best to go. And remember that Scotland's not that big that you can't live East and travel West in a day to go climbing. Knackering of course, but that's part and parcel.

In reply to AndyE9:

aside from the boots its pretty much halvies - 900 pounds each.

divide by 7 days, 130 pounds a day. include accom and fuel which will be what...? 35 pounds a day each? so 90 Pounds a day.

also covers long term procuring of key gear - the next trip will be just fuel, accom and food.

if you stay at home moping over it you will still spend money, lets say 15 pounds a day minimum.
if you get on it with your friends you will come in close to the cost of a climbing day. good chance of at least one of those happening.

rip apart my equation as you please, but i say suck it up, welcome to the gamble of winter climbing, this is the first test that sets us apart from those fair-weather-pussies who only climb in summer.

even if you dont climb you will have a howler of a road trip and see some cool stuff and broaden your horizons.
bring that shit on.

In reply to AndyE9:
Ok, here's some ways of saving money on that total.

For your first trip I'd agree with people who have recommended getting second hand axes, as long as they look in half decent nick. Make sure to sharpen the picks with a file before setting out - it makes quite a difference. You could get both pairs of axes for 180 this way, so that's 180 off the cost.

Boots you're better off with your own from the start, you need to try them on so second hand is harder. Once got boots then you could get second hand crampons to fit those boots but you'd need to take the boots to the crampon to make sure you got a good fit. You could get both pairs of crampons for 125 but I'd always check the boot fitted the crampons before buying.

Ice screws you wont need more than 3 so that's 110 saved.

Wont the fuel be split between the 4 of you? If there's only 2 of you then a bunkhouse is cheaper.

Climbing every day in Scotland for 7 days is a big ask on a first trip unless there is lots of low level ice in - it's hard to have a shorter day when the crag is 1.5 hours walk away.

Finally just before going ask about conditions etc on here and climb where conditions are best. It's best to want to do every good route in Scotland and then work out which one(s) are in best condition and do them. Oh yeah, and get Scottish Winter Climbs, SMC book. Lots of good advice in the front too.

In reply to AndyE9: Just another thought and big, big apologies if this sounds really patronising. But I'm just wondering how fit your daughter is? If you're profile is correct and up to date then she will be what, 13/14? Going out for a weeks winter climbing is tough on adults and I'm not sure someone that age could cope with day after day. Factor in shitty weather into that equation. Just a thought. I took my own daughter (she wsa about 12) out into the Cairngorms last year and just took her up a grade I gully. She could have managed technically harder as she climbs much harder than I do, but I thought it sensible to start at the bottom and work my way up, especially as she'd never used crampons before. It was a tough day, gusting 60mph, blinding spindrift and on the plateau because she is quite petite (as young, female climbers often are) she was literaly getting blown away and had to be attached to a sling. She enjoyed her day greatly but the day before she had attended a bouldering competition. 1 day of climbing and just one day in winter and she was knackered and she's very fit for her age (ie she runs, swims, climbs, represents her school in athletics etc)

It's just something to think about and sorry again if it sounds patronising.

In reply to AndyE9:

We are doing a similar thing... A couple of months ago me and some mates decided to do a winter trip to Scotland. Due to work and other commitments between us, the only time we could say for sure we could all get a week to play was between xmas and new year. So that was that, we're travelling up boxing day and coming back new years eve.
A couple weeks ago all was looking set for great conditions, now it's not looking so good...but you never know

But the hell with that - what I'm getting at is as others have said - bite the bullet, go for it!
Even if all the snow has gone before we arrive, we're still going to have a great week - if there's no winter conditions we'll go climbing or scrambling!
Road trip from the South West, nothing to care about other than what the conditions are like and what route we're going to attempt next (oh and what to eat...), hopefully meeting some like-minded people at the bunkhouse and swapping stories, and plotting the next adventure while still fired up with the adrenalin of this trip.
Doesn't get much better than that...

In reply to Sonya Mc:

Sonya's right. The cold is harder on women and small people than on men and big people. So small women find it most difficult. Being a teenager doesn't help either. Make sure she doesn't get too cold to cope.

hi all thanks for the good advice ..

I guess that it is just a matter of getting on with it , yes the whole trip would be exciting , and will get to go to new places, have lots I would like to do this year , things and places to climb..

I see your concern about jades age , and I don't find it patronising at all , lets say she is not the avg 13 year old , she is very athletic , strong and active , we climb about 3 times a week , be that indoors or out , Jade does many other things as well , she does Kickboxing & MMa and has just started playing ice hockey for under 14's..

Tho I dont do any combat sports anymore , I still play ice hockey which keeps me active..

I work in the fire brigade , and I'm part of the rope access team, with that and all the climbing that we do I have a reasonable level of safety and understanding , I pass some of this on to my daughter , lol we sometimes set up scenarios in the garden ... ( sad I know ) I honestly wouldn't endeavour on winter climbing if jade or I was up to it ...

I might have the option to borrow the axes for this trip , which would help out a bit, If it was just the cost of the trip then would be fine i guess....

In reply to AndyE9: hi Andy, have you had any experience of winter walking in the Scottish hills? Cheers gregor

In reply to AndyE9: Sounds like she's really fit Hope you both manage to get some good stuff done then. Treasure those moments with your daughter, 3 years down the line, mine has gotten more and more into comp climbing and bouldering and hates big long walk ins now. Gone are my dreams are sharing nice, big long wintery or Alpine peaks together now our weekends are shared in cramped and dingy, chalked and screaming kid filled climbing walls :oD

In reply to AndyE9:

I've been winter climbing for the best part of 15 years and I don't have as many as 6 screws.

But in answer to your original question, yes, if you plan a week climbing in advance (i.e. further ahead than the day before) the weather and or ice conditions will most likely be rubbish. Merry Christmas

Sorry, that was really bad English above!

I put down 6 ice screws as I have seen deals for 6 ice screws and a case for 215 that seemed better value than 150 for 3

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

Buy new boots (and wear them as much as you can before you go) but get all the metalwork like axes and crampons second hand or borrow them. You wont need six ice screws I agree that three will be enough. Get your clothing from Decathlon or Go outdoors or ebay to save loads of cash.

Your daughter may be sporty but winter days are very long and she may struggle to do seven in a row...

Have you been hillwalking in the winter before? There are no 'roadside' venues and the ben is a three hour walk to the bottom of the routes with a tricky descent in bad weather!

Hope you have a great time and fair play for taking your daughter but be careful and my advice would be to not expect to send orion direct on your first winter climbing trip...

In reply to AndyE9: WHEN scotland (not just the ben) is in good condition it ranks against the best places to climb in the world.

In reply to AndyE9: with the problem of time constraints we have always had to preplan our trips to scotland and even though we have had times when there is a lack of ice we have yet to have a trip that is anything short of amazing.. there is just so much to do! Also if your looking to do the lower grade routes there is a lot more chance of something being in condition as the gullies hold snow very well... looked to be plenty to get on with in the latest conditions update as long as the current thaw isn't quite extreme!! Just keep in mind that if the conditions are very lean then the routes will generally be a bit harder and steeper, and also be very wary as far as avalanches are concerned... i for one until fairly recently got tempted to risk it when the conditions were bad, however on more than one occasion we hear later that day of either routes falling down or of fairly sizeable avalanches releasing. some awesome scrambling and rock climbing to be had up there too, even for wet days! had some of my best days there doing that. Whatever you decide to do enjoy it, I only wish I could get up there more. (gonna be up over new years, maybe a little too excited right now..)

Just got email from a friend who runs the brigade climbing club , said I can borrow the axes , which is good news

We have all our clothes now both me and jade , bought them over last year, we have most our kit was just the expensive metal work .. Axes crampons and screws , tho we left jades boots till last too , who she wouldn't out grow them .

Not done much in the winter , so is going to be a experience , wasn't planning on turning up and hitting some of the higher lvl routes right away , first day out was going to be to working on our winter skills , then build on them with the hope of ending the week on some classics

In reply to AndyE9:

hi Andy,

like Sonya, in no way meaning to be patronising, as your trad climbing experience clearly far outstrips mine-

i'd concentrate for the first season on gaining the all round mountaincraft needed to operate in the scottish winter environment. some winter walking on steep non technical ground of the sort found in glencoe on bidean or the buachaille, and the navigational nous to pick your way down through that sort of terrain avoiding avalanche hazards, would be a good place to start. i'd have thought that more than one day of this would be worthwhile, but others with more experience may correct me

then some low grade gully/ridge routes- ledge route, curved ridge, forcan ridge, sron na lairig spring to mind- to get used to finding (or not finding!) protection on winter routes would be a next step

once youve invested in the kit you'll hopefully use it every year for years to come, so no need to rush onto the big nevis ice routes in your first season

also, as others have said, dont underestimate the physical side- lugging all that metal 3000 ft to the start of the route, possibly breaking trail, in high winds, in the dark, for day after day, is wearing. i've never managed more than 4 days in a week, and you'd be lucky if the weather let you do more than that anyway...

have a great time, wish i could get a week up there, but i think the most i'll manage is a long weekend this year,

cheers

gregor

good news . just got another email from the brigade climbing club , and I am able to borrow 6 ice screws 2 pairs of crampons, and 2 pairs of axes

that has saved us loads, What I will do now is use the brigades kit and if we enjoy the winter climbing then build up our own kit over time ..

All I need to spend out on now is

lodge 325
fuel 250
jades boots 210
gloves 100
and may be some base layers

we have everything else ..

In reply to AndyE9:

Have you ever been on a mountain in Scotland in winter before?

If not, you may be in for a suprise. I don't think any of the E2s will be in nick - however, the Ben is probably the most reliable place in Scotland if you want to get "something" done - be flexible in your agenda. You'll generally be better off winterising your rock rack than buying a load of ice screws. I too would have reservations about taking a teenager for a week of scottish winter climbing. Have you though about a slightly longer drive, a ferry crossing and then being able to get on some proper ice?

In reply to Jim Crow:

I wouldn't have nearly as much reservation about taking a capable teenager on continental ice. Anyway, good luck, stay safe and have fun.

Jim

In reply to AndyE9:

If the weather/conditions crap out, there's always the Ice Factor (indoor ice climbing wall) in Kinlochleven, not too far down the road from Ft William. In fact, not a bad place to start, just to see what you're letting yourself in for. Good climbing wall there too.

In reply to AndyE9:

£100 on gloves!?
2 pairs Dachsteins = £50 plus a few pairs of thin fleece for walk-ins. From the market / Primark / similar = £10

Do NOT but Jade new boots. There are often second hand small boots for sale. Once Jade has grown you can re-sell.
I haven't bought new boots in many years - I get second-hand ones for £50 or so, usually from someone who tried it and didn't like it.
Similarly, you don't need new boots.

Ross

In reply to Ross McGibbon:



I have my boots got them in the summer , have been looking for secondhand boots for jade size 39 had her feet sized up the other day , will keep a look out ..

What are those gloves ? I saw some in Cotswold looked good for all the tech stuff I thought they look good but were £50 a pair , have normal winter gloves for the walk in

In reply to AndyE9:

If your circulation is good, you can get by with industrial gloves at less than £10 a pair. Worth having something warm as a back-up, but doesn't have to be expensive.

In reply to Andy Nisbet: Sure RB just used a cheap pair of Lidl ski gloves when we took her out.

In reply to Sonya Mc:

Despite owning a couple of pairs of Mountain Equipment gloves, Dachstein mitts etc, all I normally wear are cheapo Pheonix, Trek mates (Ski?) type gloves. They have removable liners, good grippy palms, soft nose wipes and were all purchased for about a Tenner from TK max/budget kinda outdoor shops. Been out in some cold days, no probs plus if a sneaky gust of wind carries them back down the corrie during a moment of faff it won't break the bank.