UKC

IMPORTANT: A date for your diary.

Martin Crocker will be presenting his proposal for an Avon Gorge regeneration scheme at the next BMC meeting. If you climb at Avon and are only going to attend one BMC meeting this year it should be this one. In fact if you were not planning on attending any BMC meetings you should still attend this one!

Please come along, have a beer or 6 and support Martin's proposal.

7pm on Wednesday 25th January, 2012 at the Hen and Chicken, 210 North Street, Bristol.

You don't need to be a BMC member to attend, the more the merrier.

In reply to Richard Hall:

Cheers Richard, will try and pop it in the diary. Any potted summary available of the proposal, or is it under wraps for now?

In reply to AJM: The first document link here has full details - http://community.thebmc.co.uk/Event.aspx?id=717

In reply to AJM:

Probably a heresy to say it, but the apparent current lull in popularity has meant that the high sheen present on a good number of routes has dulled somewhat.

Actually, given its proximity to London (and Bristol, obviously) I'm always surprised how quiet it is in the gorge given the huge number of really good routes within such a small area. Even from Cambridge is as quick to get to for a day as many parts of the Peak.

In reply to Richard Hall:

It is a pity these meetings aren't held at the weekend - I think you would get more people attending. I'm a regular Avon climber. For me (based in Reading) it costs £25 in petrol to get to Bristol and back, so this is an expensive meeting if I can't get anyone else to share the car. If the meetings were held at the weekend people could combine it with spending a day climbing in the area. I think people living some distance away would be more likely to attend then.

Anyway, I'll try and find some Reading-based folk who want to share a car there.

Cheers,

Chris

In reply to GrahamD:

Are all those really good routes to the left or the right of all the really shit ones? I hadn't noticed any.

In reply to Richard Hall:

6 free beers? - thanks Dick i'll be there
.

In reply to Tdubs:

I don't know - I'm not sure I've ever done a really shit route there.

In reply to Richard Hall:

Shame it's a weekday, as this is something that sounds very interesting. I consider Avon as my local crag - I don't live that close, but my in-laws do, so I climb here a fair bit and love the place.

What's the plan?

In reply to Richard Hall:

I've just read the proposal. Sounds really good, and would be nice to have a formal point of contact with landowners/the council for the next time fences go up etc. Count me in for volunteer work that may be needed.

In reply to Richard Hall: Hello Dick, good call unfortunately I won't be able to make it. Had a quick look at the proposal and at first glance seems like a really good idea.I'm not sure what the term 'like for like'gear replacement policy means exactly, but may I be as bold to suggest that the New Quarry could do with a few extra bolts. Not just for the two or three routes in the middle that are either a bit 'sporting'or have a bolt missing/broken but the entire section. I never saw anyone climbing trad there, and in my opinion, a perfect waste of a great urban sport face. Purely personal and pragmatic view. Cheers, Max.

In reply to Richard Hall:

Great. I will be there. Avon Gorge needs reviving.

In reply to Richard Hall:

What if a peg can't. be replaced with a peg? Is the proposal nothing, bolt or case by case?

In reply to Richard Hall:

Similarly to the like-for-like question, will they steering group still be democratically accountable (i.e. through the area meetings) for decisions that affect us all, or would they have be acting unilaterally?

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King: I might buy you the first one if you are lucky.

In reply to koalapie: Hey Max,

"Like for like" means replacing old pegs with new pegs and old bolts with new modern bolts.

R.e. New Quarry. As far as I am aware no one is considering grid bolting it, just replacing gear and perhaps adding 1 or 2 bolts/pegs to certain routes.

I personally think turning it into a sport venue would be a mistake. I have climbed some of the trad routes there and they would not make good sport routes.

Firstly you would be turning bolt E3-5s into boring 6a-7b's, which would be a shame.

Secondly you would be giving the incorrect impression that these routes are safe. The rock in the New Quarry varies between "less than perfect" and "terrible" in quality. By creating easy sport routes you would be encouraging some in-experienced climbers to climb on some pretty loose rock. Dangerous and irresponsible in my opinion.

In reply to ericinbristol: I imagine in this case it would be down to the discretion of the "Steering Group".

In reply to Monk: By the way I don't really know any more about all this than you do. However in my opinion the steering group should have the authority to act without the necessity of passing every little descision past the BMC, otherwise nothing would ever get done.

They should be accountable however and be able to justify their actions.

In reply to Richard Hall: Hi Dick, fair enough, I suspected many would disagree, just not for those reasons. I've been there a few times and looked around, from near and afar, and I don't remember any striking natural lines. It looks like a sports crag to me, mind you, everything does!If the routes are as you suggest, who is going to trad climb them? (Apart from you!?) Is there a case for cleaning the loose rock and bolting in solid ground. Maybe all the solid rock has already been bolted, I don't know as to me apart from the two routes on the left and the travers the rest of the crag was not that appealing. Mind you a couple of extra bolts in the middle routes would probably change that. I can only speak for the quality of the rock that I have experienced at this spot.

In reply to koalapie: I think it is one of those places where you could keep cleaning for ever and it would never be of "sport quality".

The routes you mention on the left are the exceptions, the rock there is good.

In reply to Richard Hall:

I got the impression that routes such as Paiste (the potentially f7a) could make quite good sport routes with new bolts. I though the rock on the left wing was angular and seemingly unstable, but better than appears. Its never going to be kilnsey, but would certainly be fun.

The tops seemed the most dubious to me, but a system like at Cheedale, slinging trees in conjuncion with bolts for the lower offs, could avoid that.

In reply to Richard Hall: Nice one Dick, I'll be there

In reply to Richard Hall:



What, like Tintern?

In reply to Richard Hall:

I see your point, and agree to a large extent, but I still think that there needs to be a degree of accountability somewhere. 8 people is not really that many to ensure a reflection of the opinions of the general population (especially if they are all mates), and the constitution as suggested is very restrictive (i.e 8 people who can only be replaced if one resigns, with no clear understanding of how they are deemed to be appropriate). For example, if the steering group all agree that Main area needs bolting, that should be a decision for a wider consensus (extreme example, I know). I'm playing devil's advocate to an extent here, as I agree with most of the stated aims, but I woulkdn't like us to reach a situation where we use democracy to elect a totalitarian.

(My offer of volunteer support still stands, though.)

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King:

I'm trying to work out if you are saying tintern is quality or not... Either way, I think it is a good analogy, as rock quality is probably similar.

In reply to Monk:

If the rock quality at New Quarry is the same as Tintern then they should bolster the fence, lock it and throw away the keys! I guess that's a risk assessment/management issue then.

In reply to Richard Hall:

I'll definitely be along for that,with some cronies, done a lot of climbing down there over the past 30 years, I'd happily help out if it needs any sort of working party etc...

Thought this was worth a bump.

In reply to Richard Hall:

Would this project include fully equiping the partially bolted sport routes, like academic?

In reply to cha1n: I hope not.

In reply to long:

Oh, why not? Isn't this project about getting people climbing there again?

I'm sure a route like that would get more traffic if it was fully bolted and had a lower off.

In reply to cha1n: Because that would involve retro-bolting an E2. I would hope the project is about reverting certain dangerous routes back to safe routes as was the style for their first ascent, and not about dumbing down routes that haven't changed since the FA.

In my opinion the mixed ethic routes are some of the most memorable ones I have done; Circus Circus in Cheddar and Critic's Choice, for example. They're certainly worth putting the extra effort into, rather than getting the drill out.

In reply to cha1n:

I reckon if you fully bolted the whole of the gorge it would get more traffic, maybe install a sound system as well.

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King:
"maybe install a sound system as well."

It has one already; it's just stuck on the endless drone of tires on tarmac and no one can find the off button.

In reply to long:

Ah fair enough, I didn't realise that it shared the finish with an established trad route.

Point well made, Pylon King.

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King: I disagree with most the bolting at Tintern as well, for the same reasons I have already mentioned.

In reply to cha1n: I’m sorry but if you can climb 8a but can't do a bit of bold HVS you need to take a serious look at certain areas of your climbing!

Anyway as Doug says in this case your suggestion would involve retro bolting an E2.

In reply to Richard Hall:
Apologies if I've missed it but is there a plan to strip out excessive fixed gear?
I climbed at seawalls for the first time at the weekend and the collection of random bolts at the right hand end is a bit of a mess. Several bolts on a Vdiff in varying states of rotting seems like a good candidate for chopping.

In reply to Reach>Talent: Those bolts have been placed by outdoor groups as top rope ancores.

Martin couted then recently, I forget the number but it was something crazy like 40! This is for rigging 4 or 5 top ropes at a time! The problem is these groups decide newer bolts are need so they add them, but do not bother taking out the old ones.

I agree this area needs cleaning up. A good 20 or so bolts could be chopped, but it is probably just as necessary to educate the group users a bit.

I expect Martin will have something to say about this in his proposal, but I don't know.

I do not like the way this area is used by groups but I am pleased that it is the only area being used. I see it as almost sacrificial. There are some good hard routes there (Smooth Grove, The Aardvark and the Ferret, Independent Route) which thankfully have escaped being polished by dirty abseiling/toproping feet, but sadly others which have been ruined.

In reply to Richard Hall: Sorry "anchors".

In reply to Richard Hall:
There are a couple of decidely home made looking hangers with signs of corrosion on the bolts so some of them are definitely ripe for removal.

In reply to Cornish Cream:

no, what i mean is install a sound system and mics positioned along the road so we can really crank up the sound of the traffic - maybe even to eleven.

In reply to Richard Hall:

yes, my point was agreeing with you about 'sport' bolting dodgey rock.

In reply to Richard Hall:


Definitely agree with this.

In reply to Richard Hall:

Well I'd like to come but I work in London and live in Bournemouth so logistically it is a little difficult.

For what it's worth, from 1975 to 1983 I used to climb at Avon almost every weekend throughout the winter. These days I really don't want to - it just feels too risky. I used to be perfectly happy leading on the pegs and wooden wedges because I thought they might hold. Now, even with modern protection, I feel unsure - especially if I want to push the boat out a little. The climbing at Avon just seems different to climbing a normal trad route - where you can rationalise the protection with the grade. At Avon the danger comes at quite low grades, which doesn't seem quite right.

So a move to revitalise the climbing at Avon is welcome by me.

Having said that, personally I would bolt almost all of the climbs. With most people now coming to climbing via climbing walls and progressing to sports routes outside, I believe bolting the quarried crags would transform Avon into a city climbing Mecca with those very people able to experience the subtle nature of the climbing there.

I don't think replacing like for like will make much difference at all. It certainly wouldn't tempt me back even though I would like to repeat some of the climbs with my sons.

I used (with trepidation) to climb trad at Cheddar too and it wasn't a hugely popular place and very loose indeed. Now it is a fantastic and very popular sports climbing venue and rightly so. I climb there regularly.

The same formula that has worked so well at Cheddar would get my vote for Avon.

In reply to Marcus:

Do you really think that Main Wall is a suitable sport crag for beginners ? especially given the outstanding quality of the HVS and above routes there.

Provided the pegs are made sound (similar to Wintours cemented in if need be), the character of classic routes like Malbogies wouldn't really be lost.

Also suspension bridge butress is one of the best natural limestone cliffs for the trad grade in the country and the easier routes are well protected.

In reply to Marcus:



I simply couldn't disagree more.

I think that Avon routes would generally make quite mediocre to poor sport routes, and you would destroy the character of the place. Having said that, there are some areas that are pretty poor to mediocre trad routes!

In reply to Richard Hall: I've been climbing at Avon long enough to remember when Jasper was a really enjoyable route.

It's interesting to look at what gets logged in the database for Avon Gorge sectors http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/map/#main. Obviously, there are more ascents than those that get logged but it gives a sense of the minimum baseline for what is being done, and what routes in particular might be prioritising for reviving.

In reply to Marcus:

The routes at the right-hand side of sea walls only have bolts as top-rope anchors, and they're knackered beyond belief. The same would surely happen to other bolted low grade routes there.

It would also destroy the unique atmosphere of the place (I know some are in favour of that), but there really are quality adventures to be had at Avon, which won't survive a large increase in traffic, and certainly would be ruined by bolting.

Sorry I can't be at the meeting.

In reply to Richard Hall: Good to see I have been plagiarised in this morning’s BMC newsletter!

In reply to Monk: Sorry I forgot to reply to this.

I agree with you of course. I am sure that whatever system is put in place, major decisions will still be put though the BMC. I do think it is useful not to have to do this for smaller points though - adding a bolt to a belay, etc.

In reply to Richard Hall: I should have quoted you there. That was in reply to the post about the steering group being accountable.

In reply to Marcus: I have heard this opinion from a few people before. Mostly they tend to be older guys who have climbed a lot at Avon back in the day, but no longer want to do the bolder routes.

Personally I think this opinion is quite selfish. They/you have done all the bold routes they want to do and now want to repeat them in relative safety.

What about the younger guys who have not had the chance to do the routes yet? I would like to do a lot of the routes at Avon as they were originally done, maybe bold in places with occasional good fixed gear.

In most cases bolting would turn brilliant adventures into boring 5+ sport routes which would be polished in no time. I have no interest in turning Avon into an outdoor St Werburgs, if people find it difficult to get into climbing outside then bad luck for them; it is a poor reason to destroy a brilliant resource.

Just my opinion, sorry for calling you old!

In reply to Richard Hall:

Yep couldn't agree with you more!

In reply to Richard Hall:

Would also be against retroing Avon - and yes, I am old!

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward: Ha ha, was not saying that all older people want to retro bolt, just that of the people who are for retro bolting most of them are older.

In reply to Richard Hall:

As an ex-local, based in the NW i won't be attending the BMC meet, but i would like to express my opinion that there be no widespread retro-bolting.

The New Quarry probably does need a minor face-lift of gear. The landscaping that occurred a few years ago raised the floor of the quarry and made some of the bolt spacing a bit silly. For these routes, if the original bolter intended them to be a sport route, then i can't see a reason why they shouldn't have the gear replaced at sensible spacing intervals.

With regards to the replacement of other like-4-like fixed gear; i never heard anyone complain about the replacement of the old bolts on the Yellow wall belays? It is my opinion that replacing old manky bolts on belays is just plain old common sense. In a minority of cases where a belay relies on fixed pegs that can't be replaced by a similar pegs because the slot is filled, then who can possible argue that a new bolt shouldn't be added to the belay? However, please consider that the number of cases that may warrant this is probably extrememly limited, and with the majority of people now climbing on 60m ropes, simply running pitches together to reach a more solid belay would be the simpler answer to addressing belay safety.

Despite my above comments, i think that adding bolts to replace pegs as runners probably doesn't have it's place as a wholesale practice in Avon. To para-phrase the 1992 guidebook "Avon climbing is all about thinking your way between good footholds" and doing that with a solid bolt at your feet instead of a vintage peg would, i believe destroy some of the unique atmosphere of Avon climbing.

In reply to Richard Hall: I would agree with you against wholesale retro-bolting. Replace gear like for like, on a case by case basis where it's not possible to replace a peg then consider a bolt, and make the belays safe where necessary (bearing in mind ally's point about where it's possible/common to run pitches together).

In reply to Richard Hall: I've climbed there twice, loved it twice. Only done 3.5 routes, so the only contribution I can make is I would like to see the belay of Hells gates renewed. It wasn't horrific, but it was hardly bomber...

Please please please do not put any bolts in anywhere wherever possible. I'm a trad guy mostly and I'm planning on moving to Bristol at some point this year. Cheddar is close enough for sport when the urge arises.

In reply to Cheese Monkey:

When you move Bristol way, look me up and I'll be happy to get on some routes with you again.

In reply to Cheese Monkey:

That belay (guessing you mean at top of pitch 2) is pretty dire. There is no way that I would ab off it. It can be backed up with a bomber small nut, a dodgy tricam and a couply of rattly hexes, but on the couple of times I've been there I've not found much else. I wouldn't like to see a bolt there though.

In reply to Monk:

Best way to back it up is with a small cam at the start of the traverse left: the cam's bomber.

In reply to ericinbristol:

True, although then you are probably better off ignoring the tat totally and just using that cam and the bomber nut as the angle in your belay is going to be way more than 120 degrees if you are clipped to the tat on the right too.

I think what I was trying to say (and should have said more clearly) is that I am not in favour of putting in a bolt belay simply for the convenience of people who don't want to do the 3rd pitch. There is gear there to build a safe belay if you look hard.

In reply to Richard Hall:
I agree with you dick, not the stuff about old people, I’m not ageist like yourself.
It’s almost as though indoor climbing is becoming a bit of a trendy sport. Subsequently there are a lot of very strong climbers about who are more than strong enough to climb all the ‘hard’ classics but are lacking in the outdoor mileage and skills they need to be able to climb the trad classics. Without the mileage put in on shit yourself top outs, its hard to appreciate what would be lost with willie nilly bolting.
I for one am excited about trying to gain the confidence in my climbing to tackle these scary routes. To be good at avon you need more than just big biceps. And as others have said the whole nature of Avon is created by these pegs and run outs.
Any self respecting Bristol based climber knows the best Sunday past time is peg roulette!!

In reply to olliebenzie: Ha, that peg roulette phrase is catching on.

Ollie, spotted cow, 8pm.

In reply to Monk: Dont get me wrong, when I say renewed I mean new pegs, new rope etc, or strip the lot out to nothing. Backed it up with the small nut no problems. Would not like to see a bolt either

No worries Eric, I got your number! Just let me finish Asia first

In reply to Cheese Monkey:

Sorry, I guessed that was what you meant. It's just that the proposed constitution of the steering group would be allowed to consider bolts in this position - I just wanted to get my opinion in there first! Hopefully, someone who is able to attend on the 25th will be able to take the opinions voiced on this thread with them (for those of us who would love to attend but can't).

In reply to olliebenzie: I agree that Sport Climbing has become popular and the perceived need to make climbs accessible and to encourage people to get out and climb sometimes overshadows the need to do the right thing rather than the popular thing. I think the first thing to do is find out why people aren't climbing at Avon. It's easy to get lost in the solution, (to bolt? to re-equip?) without actually knowing what the problem is. Why aren't people climbing in Avon as we used to do in the past? Before we have an answer to that question from a broad range of climbers who have the option to climb in Avon but choose not to the decisions that are made will probably not produce the result that people are hoping for.

I think people should have the opportunity to climb the routes with the frequency and quality of protection the first ascentionists had, if peg replacement is not possible because of rockfall or degradation of the placement then a bolt should be placed, but that's it, no more bolts please. Routes should stand as a testament to the skill and bravery of the first ascentionist and not be re equipped to make them more popular.

Marcus

Marcus

In reply to Richard Hall: Current count from my "Avon and Cheddar fixed gear fund" pot after tonight is £269.42. That is including the £50ish I collected over the last couple of weeks in the lead-up to tonight.

Thanks very much everyone.

In reply to Richard Hall: Is there a link to an online way to contribute to the Avon fixed gear fund? If you post a link I'd bung £20 that way.

In reply to The Ivanator: Thanks, but I’m afraid the answer is no, there is no way to donate online at present.

As a temporary measure I’ll add an item to my online shop which you can buy. I’ll then take cash from the till and put it in the pot.

This is not a very cost effective (for me) way of doing it however, as I will have to pay a small charge for each transaction, so if anyone can think of a better way please let me know.

I’ll post a link once I have done it.

In reply to Richard Hall: Er can't you just charge the fee to us as well? If we donate 10 quid, then charge us 10.50? As long as we consent to it? Or does it bugger up your accounts?

In reply to mike kann: Yeah I could do, but I prefer the idea of people thinking that every penny they give is going to the fund.

Tell you what you can just buy your next rope from me to make up for the 50p!

Anyway, I have done it now:

http://www.dicksclimbing.com/index.php?p=product&products_id=3651

In reply to Richard Hall: Did it work?

In reply to mike kann: And also what are you doing in August?

In reply to Richard Hall: Hmm, just realised he website is trying to charge shipping on donations under £50.

I will try and fix this later today.

Although in the meantime don't worry, the shipping charge will obviously be donated to the fund as well.

In reply to mike kann: Yep, I got it thanks for the order and donation Mike.

I'm expecting more of those biners from DMM today so will get that order out today if they arrive in time, if not i'll get it out tomorrow.

Cheers

In reply to mike kann: Don't know yet, I don't plan more than a couple of months in advance.

Send me an email if you have a proposal...

In reply to Richard Hall: Messaged on FB - e-mails not set up at the minute as my computer threw a wobbly and died and haven't got round to setting up the new one yet...

In reply to Richard Hall: Ha, done it.

Right, there are now 2 shipping options at the checkout stage on the website, Standard Delievery and Collection.

Please select collection if you are just making a donation.

Thanks

In reply to Richard Hall:

Thanks for sorting that out, have sent over some cash.

Just a thought, any chance you could put collection boxes in TCA/UCR? I would definitely chuck some loose change in there whenever I visit.

I can't imagine the centres would have any objection to it.

In reply to thermal_t: Thanks Tim, I have recieved it and put a fresh note in the pot.

UCR have had one for years, Martin bought about 50 pegs with the money from it not long ago. It should still be there, although it obviously needs to be a bit more prominent.

I'll ask Paul/Rich about TCA.

In reply to Richard Hall:

Firstly thanks to everyone who attended last night.

For those who didn’t attend I will summarise:

BMC South West AGM came first; I’ll let you read about this on the BMC site when the minutes are published.

Following this Martin gave a funny and informative talk about Avon. He considered the history, ethics and current condition of the place. He then outlined the work that needs to be done. The exact proposal that was in question is linked to at the top of this page.

There was then a discussion among the audience which was largely about fixed gear. Most people were of a similar opinion, that being that like for like replacement was the way forward. There were one or two people with more extreme opinions either way.

We then voted on whether to pass Martin’s Proposal. The vote was passed – about 100 to 1.

Following this 8 volunteers for the steering group were asked for. There were 12 volunteers. It was suggested that we vote on who was elected but it was thought better to let the volunteers sort this out themselves at the first meeting. After all having too many keen people is better than having too few.

I am afraid I did not take a note of all the volunteers but the ones I can remember are as follows:

Myself
Dan Donovan
Martin Crocker
Colin Knowles
Simon Tappin
Ben West
Ged Desforges

There are a couple of others I am not 100% sure about so I won’t list them. If anyone can fill in the other names that would be good.

After this the meeting was adjourned, a list of people who were willing to volunteer on an ad-hoc basis was collected at the door. Donations for the fund were also collected at the door and later at the bar. Total donations for the evening were over £200.

Please feel free to correct me if I have got any of this wrong. Colin Knowles was taking minutes and I am sure these will be available on the BMC website shortly.

In reply to Richard Hall:


How do I get my name added to that list?

Thanks for the update.

In reply to Monk:


Hmmm, don't know.

I imagine Martin, Jerzy or Colin took it. Perhaps email them, send me an email if you need their addresses.

In reply to Richard Hall:

Tried contributing this morning, but got put off by the delivery charge thing, have chipped in now that is all fixed.
Good luck with the work, if there are working weekends post them on UKC as there should be a ready bunch of volunteers, I'd be keen if available.
Any news on how viable getting the car park re-opened/renovated is?

In reply to Richard Hall: i'm happy to help out with labour etc I live in berkshire but its my local cragg so more than happy. PM me with dates etc and I will do my best to hep any way i can

In reply to Richard Hall:


Hey Dick
Good work on Wednesday night anyway another of the volunteers for the Steering Group was my mate Barry (Baz) Donovan. No relation to Dan!
Cheers Dave

In reply to BALD EAGLE: Hi Dave,

Ah good, I thought Baz had volunteered but wasn't 100% sure, glad he has.



Gear fund now well over £300....

Keep up the good work folks.

In reply to Richard Hall:

I didn't realise there was a donation tin at UCR, I'll put some in next time I'm there.

I'm also interested in putting my name down for the casual volunteering if anyone's making a list..

In reply to Tdubs:

ha! ha! I like your style even if I don't agree with your view.

In reply to Richard Hall:

Dedicated sports venues are one thing of course but the Avon Gorge is a trad venue, a good multipitch one at that, and hybrid routes are just crap. Given what's going on elsewhere in the world it would be much better IMO if crags in this country were on the right side of the argument. Remove the bolts, remove the pegs. Total restoration wouldn't be such a bad thing.

In reply to Anonymous: Sorry, but who are you?

In reply to mullermn: I'll sort a list out tomorrow.

In reply to Richard Hall:

I developed my climbing skills(if that´s the right description) as a schoolboy at Avon in the late 60´s with Tony Wilmott, Ed Ward-Drummond and those guys, it was easiest to hitch to from Salisbury. The good old days with the vile powdered tea from Alf´s Tea Van, sleeping in the tennis pavilion, drinking in the General Draper and all that stuff.
Anyway, it would be sad to see it turned into another average sport cliff but a revival certainly seems in order, either way I´ve a fair few pegs acquired over the years if you want and naturally any bolts you need.

Jim

In reply to Richard Hall:
If Mr Tappin nails it then I approve

In reply to jimtitt: In reply to jimtitt: Hi Jim,

Were you identifying yourself as "Anonymous" above? I can't work it out.
In any case, Avon will not be turned into a sport crag, certainly not under this proposal or while I live in chopping distance anyway.

The plan is to, where possible, replace essential pegs with new pegs and replace essential bolts with new bolts. As well as, in certain cases, beefing up certain belays where they have become poor.

According to Martin there are 940ish pegs at Avon, of which about a third need to be replaced. We have money for about 70 so far. So any pegs you can donate would be very much appreciated and gratefully accepted. I wouldn’t ask you to give away something which is your living to sell, but if you want to then a few bolts would also be great. I can’t remember Martin’s number for bolts but it was between 100 and 200, so I imagine we probably need about 50 bolts all in all.

If it were you above who suggested we should just strip the place of all fixed protection let me say that I disagree. Also there were not a single person at Wednesday’s meeting suggesting this. I think Avon lends its self well to the use of pegs, without them a lot of the routes would be super bold and would never be climbed. We are currently seeing a lot of onsight/ground up ascents of E5s and E6s, if the gear were stripped we would have the odd headpoint ascent of an E8/9 and a lot of bored climbers. It would ruin a really good scene.

Ged and Charlie are trying “The Ramp Challenge” today, this is every starred route on the Ramp in a day. There are a few routes in the E2-4 range, then several E5s and several E6s. They haven’t even done one of the E6s so will be trying it onsight. What would they be doing today if there was no fixed gear up there? Probably spending all day top roping an E9 before deciding it was too scary to lead and going home.

In reply to Richard Hall:

How did the 'ramp challenge' go? It wasn't a bad day, cold and sunny, hell of an achievement to complete that lot, all in the 'ape pen'...

In reply to Richard Hall:

It´s o.k, I´d never dream of being anonymous anywhere!

And stripping Avon of the fixed gear would probably be horrific, the pegs are all that kept me off the ground a few times!
Probably best for Martin to get in touch with Scott about what you need, he´s got some stuff in the UK anyway.

Jim