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Is "waterproof" gear just a con?

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 dermo 12 Jan 2012
Over christmas I went away for a week with a bunch of friends, all regular climbers / mountaineers. The weather was wonderfully Irish... it didn't stop raining for 5 days. A few conversations came up about how wet people were getting with their expensive, top of the market raingear. The general concensus was that it's crap.

I bought my first "decent" waterproof jacket about 13 years ago. I've used Lowe Alpine triple point, Millet Gore-tex, Sprayway Goretex and Patagonia H2No over that time, 6 or 7 jackets in all I think. Every one of them leaked somewhat. Some more than others but they all leaked. I returned one or two of them and got myself similarly leaky replacements. I'm talking proper leaking, it's not condensation build up as a result of the DWR wearing off or anything, I'm talking zero exertion in the rain and getting wet.

I've always found the returns policy of the manufacturers more than helpful but the gear they sent me as replacments were equally as bad. My question is (finally he gets there, sorry for the rant) is everyone's experience the same? Are breathable waterproof membranes just not waterproof? Are we all just participants in a scam convincing each other that these things work?

Rant over, looking forward to hearing your opinions.

 Monk 12 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo:

My jackets for the last few years have always been pretty good. I've spent multiple days in really crap Scottish conditions and stayed mostly dry (although you do nearly always get wet around the wrists and under your chin). My jackets seem to last about 2-5 years of regular (but not weekly) use before they get less good. Even then, they still work for a walk to the shops or a sudden downpour.

 colina 12 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo: i think to a degree youre right in what your saying although in my case i think it is sweat inside the coat that makes me get wet and cold .
i work for a public services company outdoors and they provide me with a pretty heavy fluorescent yellow gortex jacket which is absolutely bomb proof i reckon you could go swimming in it and stay dry but if i worn it outdoors to go walking would probably be laughed at due to the company logo on the back (no street cred),but i agree in what youre saying ,you would think if youre going to pay £100+ youd get something that at least keeps out the water,,probably is a scam along with all the other so called "wicking" materials the designer labels bring out.
The only thing that ive ever bought that does what it sayS on the tin are items made of merino wool .they do seem to keep a relegated temperature and dont smell! .. dont get me started on walking boots !
 Neil Henson 12 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo: Well my understanding is that no jacket can ever be truly waterproof as they will always require zips and openings for limbs etc. This is how the water gets in.
Therefore in order to be completely waterproof the jacket would need to be a bodybag with no zip. This would of course be impossible to put on/take off nor would it allow you to breathe for very long.

PS: I may be talking out of my backside on this, but that is my understanding anyway.
 Scarab9 12 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo:

when I first started climbing I bought a £30 thin waterproof jacket from tkmax (so rrp maybe £50-60) from 'SunIce' (who no one I've spoken to has ever heard of).

It's incredibly light, very thin, not very breathable, but keeps me completely dry except when in the absolute most dire or drawn out rain storms it might get a bit clammy on the inside.

so ner :-p
 GrahamD 12 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo:

I find it hard to believe it isn't condensation. You don't have to excert for long in a really waterproof layer to find that out (try a plastic bag or an old style PU cagoule).

 Taurig 12 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo:

Yeah I know what you're saying. I went for a walk in driving rain with four mates on Hogmanay. Five different jackets, five different fabrics, all of us soaked to the skin. If you look after the fabric I don't think it's the cause; I have had eVent leak before (tested in the shower with a grey t-shirt), but after washing it was restored. I think it just seeps in everywhere, round the face, up the sleeves, up from the waist. Add to that sweat from having everything zipped up and yeah, you end up wringing.
 nw 12 Jan 2012
In reply to Neil Henson:
> (In reply to dermo) Well my understanding is that no jacket can ever be truly waterproof as they will always require zips and openings for limbs etc. This is how the water gets in.
> Therefore in order to be completely waterproof the jacket would need to be a bodybag with no zip. This would of course be impossible to put on/take off nor would it allow you to breathe for very long.
>
> PS: I may be talking out of my backside on this, but that is my understanding anyway.

Drysuits (kayaking, diving etc) manage it. Wouldn't fancy munro bagging in one though!
Climber 1981 12 Jan 2012
Neil is absolutely right about the fact that all jacket have big holes in them for you head and arms and also zips which let water in.
You should also consider that the material is not actually waterproof. Strictly speaking the material is able to withstand a certain pressure of water before water forces its way through. Imagine a column of water over the fabric, the higher the column the greater the pressure. This is known as the hydrostatic head.
Good quality hardshell clothing will have fabric which can support a hydrostatic head of many meters. This sounds like a lot but you can easily create pressures higher than this by kneeling on wet ground for example thus forcing water through the fabric. Pressure from ruckscas etc can also do the same.
A further point is that most 'waterproof' fabrics are microporous membranes and basically work like a sieve blocking water droplets and allowing water vapour through. This is not a directional process. If the inside of the jacket is warm and wet water vapour will be forced out through the fabric however if the inside of the jacket is colder and drier than the outside water can move in the opposite direction.
Water vapour cannot breath through liquid water so as soon as the outside surface of the jacket is soaking wet breathability is impaired. This is why it is so important to treat the outer surface with a hydrophobic DWR agent. This causes water to be shed off the fabric maintaining breathability.
What you wear under a waterproof is also important. Hyrdrophobic materials such as cotton will absorb moisture rather than allowing it to escape.
All this may sound disappointing but modern jackets/fabric are still fantastic all things considered.
 Neil Pratt 12 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo:

I've had mixed results from a range of jackets - old Paclite was woeful, XCR/Performance was okay, Paramo was horribly clammy and like wearing a shellsuit. I currently have a Rab event jacket which has been leak free for the last year, apart from the pocket zips which leak in a prolonged downpour. The pockets themselves are waterproof, so you don't get wet inside, but it's bloody annoying as you can't keep anything in your pockets that shouldn't be immersed - which is most stuff I carry. It'd be handy if I ever need to transport goldfish however!

As someone else has already observed though - if it's really pissing down for the day, I've resigned myself to the idea that the best I can hope for is staying warm and damp.
 Milesy 12 Jan 2012
If you want truly waterproof try wrapping yourself in plastic sheeting and see how well you cope. You might not feel the rain but you would sweat and overheat pretty quickly! If something can allow you to perspire then it is obviously not a total barrier and you wouldn't want that.
 marsbar 12 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo: I've never had a problem with my jackets (3 layer goretex) My trousers d are waterproof fabric but not seam sealed, they let water in through the seams once in a really heavy prolonged downpour but not so I was soaking. My drysuit does keep me totally dry even when I fall in and swim, but I wouldn't fancy walking with a rubber neck seal.
OP dermo 12 Jan 2012
In reply to Ditch_Jockey:
Thanks everyone for replying. Lots of good stuff explaining the technical function of modern membranes etc.... but I'm still unconvinced.

I'm in the process of returning my Patagonia Stretch Element jacket. Top of Patagonia's range, I get wet arms and shoulders standing outside the shops in the rain. The outlet store has asked me to wash it and re-proof the DWR which I've done. Haven't tested it yet but even if the DWR prevents leaking that's not enough, the mambrane should be waterproof too. I understand DWR make the water bead allowing condensation to escape.

Challenge: How should I conclusively test the waterproofness of my jacket? Bare in mind that the DWR is one thing but we need to test the membrane too. I'll carry out the test and report back. There's probably a nobel prize in this so get on the wagon
ice.solo 12 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo:

one of the industry tests is to sandwich a bit of the fabric stretched across a tube, then fill the tube with water. the higher the water the level the greater the pressure which is where the ratings come from.

to then test the breathability they pump air into the bit of tube below the fabric and measure the pressure it takes to bubble thru.

theres also tests where they simply place the jacket on a dummy thats covered in absorbant material, then after a certain amount of time weight the absorbant stuff to see how much was absorbed.

searching any of the gore, polartec or event sites should get you details.
 remus Global Crag Moderator 12 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo: I think you might be misunderstanding how breathable fabrics work.

A moments though should make it pretty clear that having a straight fabric that is waterproof and breathable is pretty tricky (you're essentially asking for it to be waterproof in one direction and very water permeable in the other direction, a difficult combination!) To work around this breathable waterproof fabrics are based on a material that is breathable but not waterproof, the DWR coating is then applied that makes water bead up so it can't soak in to the underlying fabric.

The point im grasping at is that you can't have breathability and waterproofness in the same fabric (currently anyway) so it doesn't make sense to say '...the membrane should be waterproof too.'
 geordiepie 12 Jan 2012
In reply to remus:

> The point im grasping at is that you can't have breathability and waterproofness in the same fabric (currently anyway) so it doesn't make sense to say '...the membrane should be waterproof too.'

Then why are many garments sold as waterproof? If they were all sold as water resistant fair enough but they're not, so we should expect that they are indeed waterproof.

 Flinticus 12 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo:
I've used a Patagonia jacket for about 4-5 years in someitmes appalling rain, hail & snow on Scotland's mountains. Omly once has rain come in (aside from the arm & head holes) and that was via the zip in an intense downpour of near horizontal rain.

My relatveily light weight Marmot jacket that I use for cycling has kept me dry in all sorts of hearvy rain conditions with loads of water spray from my wheels & passing traffic (in fact I think it must have magical properties. Its never been treated or washed since bought (about 8 years ago).

As for waterproof trousers: my experiences are not near as good but I think that's because the seams wear away where there is friction etc. My current pair of Beghaus seems to be holding up so far whereas my last pair of Rab Bergen ones didn't last long at all but they used eVent which does not appear to be too durable. Maybe I should have complained at the time)
 Owain 12 Jan 2012
In reply to remus: Correct me if I am wrong, are waterproof fabrics not based on the water and air molecules whereby the larger water molecules cannot penetrate the fabric as the diameter of the pores only allow the air molecules to escape?

> The point im grasping at is that you can't have breathability and waterproofness in the same fabric (currently anyway) so it doesn't make sense to say '...the membrane should be waterproof too.'

Therefore is it not possible to have breathability and waterproofness in the same fabric? I believe it is, my jacket has been in many a rain storms and I haven't been wet.
 a crap climber 12 Jan 2012
In reply to Owain:

Its a bit more complex than that.

Due to various bits of moderately complex chemistry, water (i.e. liquid H2O) molecules form weak bonds with each other, forming droplets. These are too large to pass through the pores in the fabric. Water vapour (i.e. gaseous H2O) molecules are small enough to individually pass through the pores, so as your sweat evaporates it can escape.

There's more to it than that, and more than I'm capable of explaining...
 remus Global Crag Moderator 12 Jan 2012
In reply to Owain: Having done a bit more reading it seem you're right, my mistake.

According to wikipedia, the DWR is actually to stop the fabric becoming saturated which then reduces the breathability.
 Owain 12 Jan 2012
In reply to a crap climber: Ok, you've told me what I just wrote. The fundamental the water molecules (liquid) are larger than air (gas) molecules. And of course hydrogen bonding forms water droplets which makes it substantially larger than the air molecules which are bound by van der waals.
 a crap climber 12 Jan 2012
In reply to Owain:

It's not down to the size of individual molecules. A molecule of water falling on you as rain is the same size as a molecule of water that has evaporated as sweat. The size of the molecule doesn't change according to the state of matter.

Air isn't a specific gas, its a mixture of various gasses with molecules both larger and small than water (though the majority are smaller than water).

 Owain 12 Jan 2012
In reply to a crap climber: Yes, I realise that, I made a mistake in my reply sorry. What I was trying to say was that the amount of water molecules in a given volume is larger than the amount of air molecules in the same volume.

Anyway, lets not ponder on this any further.
 thin bob 12 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo:
'cold and wet or warm and wet?' to my mind, a coat of feathers would be the best: sheds the rain, lets the hot (sweaty) air out.
It's interesting wearing a poncho, seeing how much condensation you do get from an impervious fabric, but good ventilation.

Sooner or later, one will get wet from sweat or rain. a wool baselayer helps a lot for me.
Triplepoint was good. not tried the latest gore/event.
 Michael Ryan 12 Jan 2012
In reply to remus:
> (In reply to Owain) Having done a bit more reading it seem you're right, my mistake.
>
> According to wikipedia, the DWR is actually to stop the fabric becoming saturated which then reduces the breathability.

Or what is known as wetting out of the face fabric. If the face fabric does wet out rather than shed the water this not only reduces passage of water vapour out of the fabric layers, but the water vapour condenses on the cold 'wetted out' inner of the jacket which increases heat loss from your body - you get cold.

There are some new face fabrics being launched that don't rely on a DWR coating to shed water/snow.

Mick

 The Lemming 12 Jan 2012
In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC:

> There are some new face fabrics being launched that don't rely on a DWR coating to shed water/snow.
>
> Mick


I'm very disgusted with the performance of my Lowe Alpine Jacket. Just over this winter the top of the hood of my jacket started leaking.

OK I bought the jacket in 1995, worn it day-in-day out since then. Its become sun bleached and quite a lot of dirt has now become ingrained into the fabric. The main zip is partially broken but to have the hood leek is disgraceful, and I want my money back!

On a serious not, triple point ceramic material, in my opinion after 16 years use is the hardest wearing cloth, especially when you compare it to material with a membrane such as gore-tex.

As for my waterproof jackets as a whole, I've never had a wardrobe malfunction to the point that the jacket has got me soaking wet from rain. Its usually if not always been from sweating.
OP dermo 12 Jan 2012
In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC:

So is the concensus that:
1. DWR sheds water to allow for an unsaturated shell material which will allow gasious H2O to be passed through from the lower layer (eg Gore-tex membrane)

2. The Gore tex membrane is waterproof. It allows gasious H2O to pass through but not liquid H2O
 Cheese Monkey 12 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo: Also had an absolutely bombproof fluoro orange jacket from work. Never let anything in, and I never sweated myself wet in it. God I love it. Might look at stripping the waterproofing and dying it lol. Other jackets have all been good, but none particularly exceptional, price hasnt really had a bearing on it.
 robhorton 12 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo:

I was in Torridon over Christmas and had a similar experience with the weather. My year old Gore Tex pro shell jacket kept my top half pretty much completely dry, whilst my 12 year old salopettes caused my legs to end up fairly damp.
 mattrm 12 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo:

Personally, my waterproofs have always worked as I expected them to. I think that your expectations are key. If you believe the claims in the ads, then you might well be upset by the performance of your £300 jacket and understandably so. However if you search out the cheapest possible decent quality jacket (I got a Montane Venture for £100 in a sale) then you might be less upset when it leaks a bit. I think the biggest problem is that most people equate 'waterproof' with 'I will be 100% dry at the end of 8 hours of strenuous walking/climbing/running etc in the rain'. That's simply not the case and will probably never be.

I don't often set out in the pissing rain, I just go mountain biking instead (where there's no pretence of staying dry/cleanish) and revel in the mud! But when I do, my waterproofs largely do the job, the bulk of me stays fairly dry. For example on a normal Scottish walk-in (say Stob Coire Nan Lochan) I'll often start in the rain, walk up into snow and then do a route and walk off. When back at the car, I'm often a bit sweaty and there is often some dampness around the neck/shoulders and the wrists/forearms. But most of me has stayed fairly dry. I've been warm enough and not excessively sweaty for the whole day, not comfortable, but when you think about where you are and what you're doing it's pretty decent.
OP dermo 12 Jan 2012
In reply to mattrm:
My experience has been the same as yours, at best. A good jacket leaks a bit. I'm talking while standing still in the rain, removing sweat from the equation. So not waterproof so!

It's a good job the raingear manufacturers don't make climbing hardware. "When properly used this Gore Tex carabiner will work 100% of the time... well most of the time it works 100% of the time"
 Monk 12 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo:
> (In reply to mattrm)
> My experience has been the same as yours, at best. A good jacket leaks a bit. I'm talking while standing still in the rain, removing sweat from the equation. So not waterproof so!
>

Your body releases moisture all the time, not just when you are working hard. If you don't believe me, sellotape a sandwich bag over your hand for half an hour or so.
OP dermo 12 Jan 2012
In reply to Monk:
Fair enough, I should have added that I was getting significantly wetter then the amount of sweat I'd typically produce while standing still
 DancingOnRock 12 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo: It's not just sweat. The air is going to be fairly humid, particularly as it gets trapped between you and the coat and your body warms it up. The air will then condense on the coat if it is particularly cold outside or the outside of the coat is very wet. If it is warm and dry outside the vapour has more of a chance of escaping through the material before it condenses.

I always thought the main idea of these coats was that you could wear them as a windproof when it stopped raining and stay dry rather than having to take them off.
 Alex Slipchuk 12 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo: i find all this quite funny, we spend a fortune covering our relatively waterproof and breathable shell (skin) with less waterproof hard shell that once wet gets cold and inhibits our mid layers from drying once the rains. A good read is "The Way of the Bivy"
 Dave Ferguson 12 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo:
I've had a couple of expensive waterproof jackets in the past, both were pants, now got a £40 regatta jacket that is just as good/bad. I used to instruct and therefore work in the rain a lot, wearing two jackets, one on top the other was the only really acceptable option and I still got wet. These days I work indoors and don't go out in the rain as much.

For £300 you can have two weekends in scotland or a week in spain, so why on earth would you spend it on a jacket that doesn't work.
 brokenbanjo 12 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo:

I use Paramo in general. Work provide it and I have a couple of jackets of my own too. I am often on the fells with work and on one occasion my Velez Adventure (the 'light weight' one) kept me dry from start to finish. We had camped by Sprinkling Tarn and then headed up on to Great End and to Scafell Pike in atrocious rain monitoring the vegetation (yes I love my job). I had this coupled with Cascada trousers.

The same jacket kept me 100% dry on Knoydart (pleasure not business) during a 25mile stomp in horizontal rain (camping again). I was dry as a bone by the time we got Barisdale, not even slightly damp around the straps of my rucksack.

The point is Paramo seems to work for me. Goretex is like wearing a bin-liner for me, I've always been damp due to the sweat. Can't really add owt else to this.
macmillan 12 Jan 2012
Thats all good & well if you wear your jacket away from your body on some kind of frame, but where it touches it is not vapour but dropletts - like rain i think..so it stays inside..
 Timmd 12 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo:

I've decided pitzips are part of the solution for me, after mtbing quite hard for five hours on a mountainbiking weekend when it was constantly raining on the second day, the air was cloudly with drizzle or it was raining more heavily.

I was warm while cycling, but when we got back I found my merio top and my trousers underneath my waterproofs were soaking wet.

There was so much water in the air I think perhaps any fabric would have struggled, but being able to let my own moisture out seems like it'd help.

I don't think i've ever had a goretex waterproof leak though.

Cheers
Tim
macmillan 12 Jan 2012
How wet you get seems to vary every time ...does it not? Depending on many factors - base layers, exsertion, time of year..one walk to the next..
macmillan 12 Jan 2012
I think pit zips help...
 Timmd 12 Jan 2012
In reply to brokenbanjo:
> (In reply to dermo)

> The point is Paramo seems to work for me. Goretex is like wearing a bin-liner for me, I've always been damp due to the sweat. Can't really add owt else to this.

That's how i found my eVENT cycling jacket to be like, a bit like a bin liner.

Do you know if you can you get any Paramo fabrics which contribute as little insulation wise as membrane waterproof fabrics?

Tim
 gethin_allen 12 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo:
I was out scrambling in really crap weather with a couple of friends and the two people wearing event jackets got wet the person wearing a own brand material marmot jacket was dry and two of us had berghaus deluge aquafoil 2 trousers that were bone dry and brilliant. My conclusions; buy cheap within reason as as far as I can tell they are plenty breathable and keep you drier.
Regarding the fluro safety jackets discussed above, my bright yellow endura cycling jacket is fantastic, i've used it loads never washed or treated it, I don't get really sweaty in it and it's never leaked.
 brokenbanjo 12 Jan 2012
In reply to Timmd:

I'm not sure. The Velez Adventure Light or Quito are Paramo's lighter fabrics. But that is due to thinning the windproof layer. The problem with Paramo is that it relies on the pump liner (the insulating bit)to keep you dry by actively pumping water out (hence why it dries so quick after kneel/sitting in a puddle). Without that you just have a windproof shell. Which isn't waterproof, nor does it move moisture away from your body.

I really am sounding like a rep for Paramo!!! I'll make it clear, I do not work for Paramo, but it works for me. I've not looked back, but do know of its limitations (too hot in summer). But the venting options do work and wear it with a hydrophobic baselayer and the pump-liner banishes all that water keeping me dry.
 brokenbanjo 12 Jan 2012
In reply to Timmd:

I'll add, get in touch with Paramo. They are really helpful and do want your ideas. I've had extensive dialogue with them about the Velez I have as I wanted something lightweight (admittedly it isn't very lightweight but it does the trick).
 Timmd 12 Jan 2012
In reply to brokenbanjo:

It sounds like the kind of thing which is good for quite a lot of the year in the UK, ie not particularly cold or hot and often raining.

Which doesn't read very cheerfully now i've typed it, oh well, it's a nice forecast for tommorow.

Thanks,
Tim
 martinph78 12 Jan 2012
My old paclite was ok, but only ok. Never brilliantly breathable and often let water in in driving rain (down the front zip). Recently it just leaks all of the time despite re-proofing with grangers and nikwax. So, alas, it is now relegated to an old jacket for work/caves/etc.

I had re-proofed the jacket before heading to Scotland at Xmas. 100mph winds and driving rain, I got soaked to the skin, as I had a few years earlier on Scafell in less wind but more rain.

I bought a new jacket over the Xmas week and used it in the same conditions..it is AWESOME!

I can honestly say that my Mountain Equipment Goretex Active is 100% waterproof (no driving rain getting in at all, not even through the pit zips or front sip, neither of which have a storm flap), 100% breathable (I sprinted up Jacks Rake and back and as soon as I reached the bottom took my jacket off to find my t-shirt and inside of the jacket bone dry, no moisture at all despite my heart rate being right up there!), and totally windproof.

I had a cycling jacket that was similar many years ago, an Altura, can't remember the fabric, but that was just the same.

Oh, and my Montane Event pants are equally wind and waterproof. Not quite as breathable as the Gortex Active but more breathable than the old Goretex Paclite.


Just a thought though...none of these fabrics are anygood in warm/humid conditions. If it's hotter on the outside of the jacket than the inside I find they don't breath, guess they need a differential?

That's why in India and such you use a brolly, bot a waterproof jacket. Not very helpful when lead climbing but maybe a brolly for the belayer could be the latest accessory? :P
 cfer 12 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo: Ha, I have a wait for it.... a craghoppers jacket that I got for £30 in a sale, I have absolutely battered it, commuting on a cycle, walking,work,running, it never lets a drop in, the neck seal is really good. It does have armpit vents and arm vents that I have open most of the time. It keeps me so warm and dry I wouldn't even look at another jacket.
 Michael Ryan 13 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo:

Has anybody answered your thread title question?

Is "waterproof" gear just a con?
 cliff shasby 13 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo: i think it probrably is,at the end of the day its not completly waterproof is it,hydrostatic head and all that,kneeling/rucksacks and maybe even a bit rub from your arms etc could cause pressure to push water in.
i think the bigger con is so called breathable fabrics,ive never worn a hardshell of any make/fabric that dosent make me feel like im wrapped in clingfilm,although i havent tried neoshell yet.
i have an old stretch element and hardly ever wear it these days but it seems most decent fabrics cope better than gore tex.
i walked the dog about 5 miles the other day in pouring rain wearing an atom sv just to see how it coped,it didnt let a drop in,but its new and god knows how long the coating will last...
zakmacro 13 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo:
Every jacket that I have ever owned has had at least 4 wacking grate bit holes in!
 CorR 13 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo:
Yes. None of them are waterproof since the fabrics let water pass through them which isn't water proof. Most rely on moisture management to keep one dry.
 Hannes 13 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo: nope it isn't. Look after the jacket by washing it and not get it oily and wear the right things underneath and it is waterproof. If you work hard of course you will get wet, the membrane can't cope simply. If you are a bit sweaty get a paramo jacket as they will be the most comfortable for you. I don't like them, I just feel wet and clammy when its raining
 PATTISON Bill 13 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo: Nothing so far to beat the old US Navy double Ventile anoraks although I think Paramo is great Gear.Been using my Paromo suit for ten years now and as good as new.Goretex an expensive con in my oppinion
Jimmybarr 13 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo:

I think there's waterproof and there's WATERPROOF. Any fabric that says it is waterproof and breathable will eventually 'wet out' IMO. This is simply by the very nature of the fabric.
I've had H2No from Patagonia, ME Gore-tex and Triple Point and they have all wet out sometime during there life.
The most waterproof jacket I have is a Musto Ocean sailing jacket and that has never let water in (it's withstood an Atlantic lashing and a force 9 gale), but it isn't breathable and it's heavy.
So yeah, I'm sure the gear companies could make a fully waterproof jacket but you'll weigh 3 stone more, sweat like a gringo and have the manoeuverability of a Sumo wrestler.
 Fiona Reid 13 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo:

Here's my 2p worth...

Over the years I've tried lots of different kit and have now mostly worked out what works/doesn't work - for me anyways. I tend to run pretty hot when I'm moving but need to stay warm when I stop as I get cold/grumpy very fast.

For me Goretex stuff works great if I only wear it when I'm not working (sweating/getting hot) too hard. So the Goretex gets used on days where the weather is good but there might be the odd shower or for climbing when it's either fine or cold enough to snow.

If I have to wear full Goretex waterproofs from the car I generally end up cold and damp. If it's really torrential then the areas around the cuffs, neck and the odd zip will let some water in but mostly it's the heat/condensation generated by going uphill that causes the problem (for me). Once I get cold/damp in Goretex I seem to stay that way for most of the day unless the weather improves and I can escape from the waterproofs such that my clothes get a chance to dry out.

Paramo stuff works great for me as long as I am moving. I stay warm and pretty dry all day. Occasionally in pouring rain, some bits of my jacket/trousers do seem to wet through but because the water is always being pulled away from my skin I never seem to experience the same level of vileness that I have in Goretex. However, for me the down side of Paramo is if I stop moving when it's raining (e.g. being dumb enough to winter climb in torrential rain!) then more sections seem to wet through and I get cold and wet. Once you start moving again it improves but it's pretty unpleasant.

So the holy grail for me would be something that's as breathable/comfortable as Paramo when you're moving but doesn't get wet when you stop.
OP dermo 13 Jan 2012
In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC:
Seems to me that the question may have been answered indirectly by the variance in opinion.

Cutting out all the technical functionality and the jargon and concentrating only on the end result, there are people posting here that they stay bone dry in all conditions with some rain gear and there are others saying they get soaking wet in all conditions. Surely that says there are significant reliability issues. Given the cash we're all spending on this gear, that level of reliability constitutes a con in my book.
OP dermo 13 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo:
Any web developers out there willing to set up www.ratemyjacket.com ???
 jadias 13 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo:

Personally I'm not really sold on 'breathable waterproof', really. If you're not really cranking out the sweat then they're ok, and they will keep you reasonably dry. However, they have two huge flaws:

1 - they're full of holes for your appendages
2 - you soak them from the inside

I'm sold on 'softshell' in many of its forms, be it pile-Pertex stuff in the winter or more modern stretch garments with only water resistance as opposed to waterproofing. Less moisture INSIDE the system. I'll often take a minimalist hardshell as a last-ditch layer if the weather turns ugly but I'd rather not be out in that!

If the weather is really disgusting then I have a big bomber mountain hardshell but honestly I don't wear it often. Great at what it does but it's something you shouldn't need regularly in most places.

I just got a Mammut Ultimate Hoody which will be interesting. It's Windstopper, which is basically stretch Goretex but without taped seams, complete with the relative stuffiness. It does, however, have ENORMOUS side zips rather like my Montane/Buffalo pile-Pertex systems. Dumping moisture should be easy. I'm hoping that between the high water resistance and the huge vents it'll be able to more or less replace my PowerShield and Goretex layers in most situations. One less thing to carry!
OP dermo 13 Jan 2012
In reply to jadias:
I agree with you. I use a Patagonia Ascentionist (I'm not sponsored by Patagonia by the way, just an outlet store near me) soft shell jacket and it's great. It does get sodden after 30 mins of mank and I carry a light weight hardshell for that.

Great system alright, the trick is knowing when to throw on the hardshell though. Too soon and you're now sweating in a hardshell, too late and you're already wet with the hardshell capturing the moisture.
 Wesley Orvis 13 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo:

The difference between a £300 jacket and a £25 jacket is about 30 minutes in torrential rain, so if your out allday i don't really think it matters how much you spend or what you wear, anorak or goretex, as whatever you have on you will be wet within an hour anyways.

My answer to your question is yes all waterproof gear is a con, coming from someone who owns around 8 different types of jackets ranging from a mac in a pac at £9.99 to a full goretex Patagonia costing £280. The outcome is the same wet, wet, wet, after a long day in the hills!!!!
 charlesr 13 Jan 2012
Dermo

The whole question of waterproof fabrics relies on several individual factors: the conditions, your body, the membrane & the DWR are the main variables

As has rightly been pointed out the human body produces moisture to help it cool down & to flush out dirt. A day's walking will result in over a pint of sweat being produced by each foot; even at night you perspire (hence why you always need to air your bag in the morning)

The membrane does work, in the right conditions. The environment inside the jacket needs to be of a higher humidity than outside - not good when we live in a country where outside dry weather could have 80% levels (which rise to over 95% when it is raining); far better to use the materials a long way from the sea (hence why breathables work better in the Alps, than the Lakes) - something that is hard to do here in the UK where we are always within 100 miles of it. Membranes are weak; Goretex is a treated version of plumbers tape (that you can rub through it with your thumbs), hence it needs to be protected with an outer & inner layer. When you have a triple layer wear & tear will break down whatever bonds it all together (referred to as delamination). The testers I know expect this to happen after 180 days of continuous use (3 years of weekends for you & I)

The DWR is vital; any wetted-out fabric performs poorly. The difference between the cheapest & most expensive fabrics is about 4 hrs (Peter Storm wets out within 30 mins; NeoShell after 4 1/2 hrs). The Durable coating gives a big clue: it wears off too - hence techwash your jackets every so often (wash in pure soap & rinse twice). When dirt & co gets on the DWR, the effect is also compromised

If I was to offer advice I would say to use a windproof for almost all conditions in the UK as a shell. Make sure the outer surface has a good & maintained DWR finish on it. Never wear an absorbent base layer (like cotton), plus be aware of wearing too much insulation if you are active (as that will make you want to cool down more - sweat). Pull on a waterproof when you are stationary & in rain. Personally I find Buffalo hard to beat, but do enjoy ventile for daywear. Concentrate on getting a highly breathable shell, that dries quickly IMHO

I am fortunate in that I get to test a lot of different garments & also chat with their designers in my line of work

Good Luck!

ps. the biggest failure in the rainroom for waterproof jackets is the lack of elastication on the upper edge of the chinguard...
 Monk 13 Jan 2012
In reply to Wesley Orvis:

What intrigues me is why people have such different experiences with their waterproof kit? Is it expectations, differning definitions of wet or different clothing underneath? I generally find that a decent jacket does keep me dry through all sorts of crappy Scottish or Welsh weather, for days at a time. And I am not one of those who only goes out in good weather. In fact, if the weather is half-way decent I will go climbing so nearly all my walking is done in the worst weather, and I go out whatever the weather is. I do usually wear an old-style softshell (Marmot Driclimb or similar) under my hardshell though, so maybe that makes a difference?

One example of goretex working brilliantly is a very old pair of 2 layer goretex trousers that I have (possibbly ME Karakorum before the stretch fabric was added?). They are big, baggy and heavy, so I don't wear them unless I really need them. However, on several occasions I have put them on when my legs are already wet and my trousers have dried out underneath them within an hour or two, despite the heavy rain not letting up.

On a different note, for the last few years my main pair of waterproof trousers for 3-season day walks has been a £10 Regatta pair. They are light, and not very breathable but have kept me passably dry when I have needed them. They are not as good as my gore-tex pair but work acceptably well.

 Mr Fuller 13 Jan 2012
In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC:
>
> Is "waterproof" gear just a con?

I don’t think so. Membrane waterproof fabrics like Gore-Tex and eVent have enormous hydrostatic head ratings. This means they can withstand extreme pressures of water before they begin to let water through. That meets my definition of waterproof.

Regarding jackets leaking – well, there are a few possible reasons for this. 1) Bad design: if the pockets or zips aren’t in the right places then they might leak. 2) The jacket’s worn out. 3) The weather was coming through that big hole where your head goes or up your sleeves. 4) You put the jacket on once you were wet already.

The other factor is of course ‘breathability’. That’s a completely different issue to waterproofness.

‘Waterproof-breathable’ fabrics have a very difficult job to do and are often asked to do impossible things. Gore-Tex have a lot to answer for with their ‘Guaranteed to Keep You Dry’ slogan. I hope no one really believes that. So, waterproofness isn’t a con, and nor is ‘breathability’, but there is a limit to what these fabrics can deal with, and sometimes that limit is modest at best.
 mattrm 13 Jan 2012
In reply to Monk:
> (In reply to Wesley Orvis)
>
> What intrigues me is why people have such different experiences with their waterproof kit? Is it expectations, differning definitions of wet or different clothing underneath?

I think a lot of it has to do with expectations. As other's have mentioned (and as I said in my previous post) the advertising (and sometimes what sales people say in the shop) will often give you a totally false idea of what the jacket will do. However as with most things in life there are a whole host of complex factors at play, design of jacket, quality of material, physiology of wearer (i.e. do they sweat a lot, run hot, run cold), other clothes worn and the actual weather encountered.

If I'd paid £300 for a waterproof and it acted the way my current one does, I'd be disappointed. But I didn't,I specifically bought one in a sale, so for £100 I'm happy (and can live with the fact that it's not super light and that the pocket zips aren't the best with gloves on, oh and the stormflap isn't fully velcroed up). So I wouldn't say it's a con as long as you have realistic expectations of how the gear will perform. However approaching it from the 'I want to be 100% dry angle' then yes, you might well feel conned.
 Michael Ryan 13 Jan 2012
In reply to charlesr:

I'm glad you joined in Charles. Thank you.

Mick - currently testing Mountain Hardwear's DryQ Elite and Polartec's Neoshell
 marsbar 13 Jan 2012
In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC: my answer from my experience would be no. Maybe its cause I'm a girl and not sweaty Maybe people are wearing too many warm clothes under their jackets? Who knows. Certainly I think sweat is the issue, when I've been outside all day not being active in the rain I've stayed dry.
 Michael Ryan 13 Jan 2012
In reply to charlesr:
> Dermo
>

> The DWR is vital; any wetted-out fabric performs poorly.

Or do you mean that the face fabric should have a surface that sheds water and snow and doesn't wet out.

What if someone developed a face fabric that didn't rely on a DWR treatment, or relied on it so heavily?

I believe Arc'teryx have done this with GORE....the top of the range being a face fabric they call N80p-X which is a 80 dernier false twisted textured, high tenacity 6.6 yarn. It's a plain weave construction that is extremely tight in both warp and weft direction. So permeable to water vapour (vapour can get out), impermeable to rain (water can't get in) and at the same time the surface of the fabric sheds water without relying as heavily on a DWR coating.

Mick
 Michael Ryan 13 Jan 2012
In reply to marsbar:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC) my answer from my experience would be no. Maybe its cause I'm a girl and not sweaty

What's the stat? Men sweat twice as much as women during exertion?


> Maybe people are wearing too many warm clothes under their jackets? Who knows. Certainly I think sweat is the issue, when I've been outside all day not being active in the rain I've stayed dry.

I think that is a very important issue. People do tend to over-layer and overdress and build up such a head of steam under the shell that it can't possibly cope. Result is that the water vapour condenses on the inside of the jacket, and saturates any garments under the shell.

OK when you are walking up hill, and warm. The problem is when you slow down and you loose heat through evaporation and conduction, you get bloody cold.

Whereas with less layers, and good wicking layers, the 'breathable' membrane may be able to work properly and the vapour is lost through the jacket and you stay dry, less conduction and heat loss through evaporation and you hopefully keep warm.

Mick

 charlesr 13 Jan 2012
Mick

Good question! I am unaware of the claim for Arc'teryx - I will check with their gear guru when I meet him at the end of the month

To my mind whatever the fabric - it can only be improved in shedding qualities by a DWR; but the act of putting on a DWR will cut out some breathability. Hence if what you say about Arc' is true; it would be a great solution

My qualm is that althought polyesters & nylons do not absorb water, they do get dirt (et cetera) sticking to them & the dirt cuts down the breathability. Also DWR's do help repell water being driven into the membrane by force (pressure/ wind/ rubbing harnesses)

I look forward to learning more; presume our paths will cross in Munich?

regards
 Fluvial 13 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo:

I was opnce told that the actual material may well be waterproof but any seam, zip or compression can allow moisture in, that's why the cheaper end jackets are stitched rather than glued in some way. - Same with dry suits.

I have found EvEnt fabric pretty decent to be fair I have the Rab Latok Alpine jacket the only problem is like someone said earlier, the cuffs channel water so if your hands are in your pockets they soak the pocket up - but thats it and I've been in some nasty weather.
As for all these people with jackets bought every other year this is my second in 15 yrs the last one TNF was great up until watching the Great North Run in the rain - it failed me big style and that was when I bought a new one; up until then it had been fine
 TobyA 13 Jan 2012
In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC:

> Mick - currently testing Mountain Hardwear's DryQ Elite and Polartec's Neoshell

I'm testing the Marmot Zion Neoshell, so was out ice climbing in the rain last night. It was absolutely foul - I was wringing my gloves out at the end of each route, but the Neoshell did well - not clammy after leading and dry inside despite the continuous rain.

 jadias 13 Jan 2012
In reply to fozmeister:
> (In reply to dermo)
>
> ...the cuffs channel water so if your hands are in your pockets they soak the pocket up...

Interestingly Patagonia have tried to deal with this on the new Super Alpine. I've had a fiddle with one (every time i go into my local shop, actually - it's gorgeous!) and been very impressed. It has soft rubber rands on the ends of the sleeves - when you crank down the cuff adjusters it forms a pretty good seal around your wrists.

That jacket generally is almost a perfect design but my god, that price!
Ian Fife 17 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo: I've always used Mountain Equipment Goretex stuff and NEVER had any leaking gear. I do get damp through exertion - and it has to be said goretex doesn't breath too well for me - but never had cause to complain. Buy really good gear and it will work for you,

Ian Fife
 Tdubs 17 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo:

So the other day I was out climbing by myself in the Grey Corries, and after a long day out I came across the Wee Minister. It seemed funny to me then, in a relatively remote bit of the hills, to get my money out and pop a quid in the MRT box - seeing money in such circumstances reminded me that one of the things I love most about these out of the way places we love to go to is that your money doesn't mean much - you can't eat it and it can't keep you dry.

This makes me even happier when you (regularly, I mean, seriously regularly) see people complaining that their several-hundred-pounds worth of fabric doesn't keep them dry. Of course it doesn't keep you dry. You're in the mountains and it is raining.

I have a two or three different jackets, for different situations and all secondhand and well under £100 (one was free). Some work better than others. None of them are made out of magic. Without meaning to sound like a dick, if you don't want to get wet, stay indoors. It's a very odd thing to do, to choose to go outside when it's raining and then complain that you've spent a lot of money to stay dry. You could save a lot of cash by taking up a different activity that doesn't trouble you so much.
 Rog Wilko 17 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo: I'm old enough to remember the old Peter Storm adverts - "Can foul weather gear this light really be waterproof?" to the which the answer was a resounding NO!
In reply to dermo: I once descended from Gimmer in the rain along with a couple of other guys. They put on their £400 goretex jackets. I didn't bother and just wore my Marmot Driclime shirt. When we stripped to our teeshirts in the pub afterwards I was bone dry and they had damp patches showing in various places. It doesn't matter if it's rain or sweat it's still wet.

Al
 Fishmate 17 Jan 2012
In reply to Tdubs:

have to disagree. Got an ME Goretex Pro Shell a couple of years ago and have walked through ten hours of rain and was in very good shape.

Two things, firstly a lot of people will put a waterproof on over existing gear when it rains. I always take my top layer off. That will reduce sweat for a start. Also use venting zips. Unless you are doing hand stands this shouldn't let water in!

Secondly, the quality of your base layer is king. It may cost, but a good lightweight merino base layer will remove most of your condensation concerns. I say this as someone who canes it when outdoors over long distances. That said, we are all made differently so different results can only be expected, however I do think some people are too stupid to work out a system that suits them (see point one, etc).... there I said it!
Slugain Howff 17 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo:

Many years of involvement in MR tells me modern gear keeps people alive longer when things deviate from the plan.

Are the latest outer shells completely waterproof in every situation - no!

S
OP dermo 17 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo:

Thanks everyone for replying. It seems to me that the resounding outcome of this thread is reliability issues with "waterproof - breathable" fabrics.

Some people swear by their equipment that never leaks, others (like myself) get soaking wet, wetter than persperation can come close to explaining. My interpretation of these replies is that the extremes can't be explained by the technical limitations listed or personal expectations.

Perhaps the manufacturing process of these fabrics is fraught with reliability issues. Well, I've topped up my DWR on my Patagonia jacket and I'm waiting for pissy weather for testing to commence.
 DaveHK 17 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo:

Beats me how Paramo get away with selling their stuff as waterproof. It's great for snowy conditions but useless in heavy rain.

 crashnodrog 17 Jan 2012
Used various bits of 'high spec' kit over the years but the best system I ever had was a buffalo mountain shirt coupled with a very lightweight rubberised (neoprene-totally waterproof) jacket which only went on when it really poured down. Being a sweaty sort condensation formed at the pertex/neoprene interface but I remained dry. The jacket was made by Karrimor before it got sold off abroad. Can I find a similar jacket? Plenty in heavy weight material as used in OE centres but none in the lightweight. Everything is 'breathable and waterproof' and using 'high tech material' which might work efficiently at 20,000feet, keeps the price up and manufacturers in business.
 Mr Fuller 17 Jan 2012
In reply to DaveHK: I test Paramo garments in rain rooms (far more powerful and, crucially, far more penetrating than any real conditions) and they do not leak. Sit in a puddle and there may be enough pressure to force water through, but they keep rain out.
 Ross McGibbon 17 Jan 2012
In reply to DaveHK:
I wore recently proofed Paramo in really heavy rain and stayed dry - it IS waterproof.

However, having to wash and proof it to keep it like that is a pain.
 gav 17 Jan 2012
In reply to Mr Fuller:

Mine leak like a sieve, and as you can see from this thread alone, along with more than 1 other in the past, I'm not the only one. Your wet room tests are great and all, but when I've got streams of water running down my legs, I think it's pretty clear; Paramo leaks.
 thin bob 17 Jan 2012
In reply to gav: check your flies...
 DaveHK 17 Jan 2012
In reply to Mr Fuller:
> (In reply to Dave Kerr) Sit in a puddle and there may be enough pressure to force water through.

I find bending my knees or any movement that puts pressure on the fabric forces water through.

I fully endorse them for scottish winter climbing when it's snowy but wouldn't touch them with a bargepole for rainy conditions.

 Monk 18 Jan 2012
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:
> (In reply to dermo) I once descended from Gimmer in the rain along with a couple of other guys. They put on their £400 goretex jackets. I didn't bother and just wore my Marmot Driclime shirt. When we stripped to our teeshirts in the pub afterwards I was bone dry and they had damp patches showing in various places. It doesn't matter if it's rain or sweat it's still wet.
>
> Al

I've done this too - it's amazing how good it is as long as you are moving. I love my Driclime shirt, and will normally have it under my waterproof in cold conditions. An absolutely superb bit of kit, but mine is fast becoming trashed (it's at least 10 years old).
 Mr Fuller 18 Jan 2012
In reply to DaveHK, gav: Have you raised the issues with Paramo? I've never worn their stuff myself, but unless they're worn out they should definitely keep rain out.
 DaveHK 18 Jan 2012
In reply to Mr Fuller:
> (In reply to Dave Kerr, gav) Have you raised the issues with Paramo?

Done.

 gav 18 Jan 2012
In reply to Mr Fuller:
> (In reply to Dave Kerr, gav) Have you raised the issues with Paramo? I've never worn their stuff myself, but unless they're worn out they should definitely keep rain out.

Yes; the first time they leaked, I sent them back. They had them for 3 or 4 weeks and returned them with a standard form that had the box "washed and reproofed" ticked.

I used them shortly after in some light rain and they seemed ok - I even sent them an email to say thankyou (well... that and to request they fix the leg zip that had fallen apart).

But apart from that one time in light rain, they've consistently leaked.

I finally had enough in september, when I washed and reproofed them (with nikwax) before a 5-day backpacking trip to the cairngorms. Waterproof boots aren't much use when the water runs through your trousers and down your legs.
 Stefan Kruger 18 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo:

It's quite simple really.

Water proof, breathable. Pick one.

Water proof is irrelevant - what matters is if you are dry and warm. A hard shell will not keep you dry even under moderate exertion, and isn't nearly breathable enough in pretty much any condition.

Paramo is the only thing that works to a reasonable degree, especially in cold conditions. I use Paramo for ski touring - it's exceptional.

For non-winter conditions, a water-resistant, highly breathable action layer, plus an emergency, light-weight waterproof in case the heavens truly open works for me - Rab Vapor Rise smock plus a cheapo paclite shell in the pack.

But *nothing* will keep you dry under exertion in driving rain. Nothing.
 Monk 18 Jan 2012
In reply to Stefan Kruger:
> (In reply to dermo)
>

> But *nothing* will keep you dry under exertion in driving rain. Nothing.

See, I disagree. I stay nice and dry in some horrible conditions in both my gore-tex (now retired) and event jackets. Even my Paramo is excellent if it's not too warm out.

Admittedly, you do need to be a little canny. Minimise what you are wearing underneath, use a long sleeve wicking base-layer, and taking steps to avoid over-heating.
 BigHell 18 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo:

I have never paid out for a Gortex jacket basically they are very expensive but generally very good at what they do,my pal has one in the XCR stuff,and loves it. I have tried various jackets over the years most were crap. I used a Vango 6000 for around 8 years it never leaked but was very heavey. For the last six years I have used a Sprayway Mountain lite made from Hydro-dry,the jacket cost around £80 never leaks and is wonderfully lite and stretchy,ideal for scrambling and the Alps.

http://www.sprayway.com/products.php?product=226
 jt002e2762 20 Jan 2012
Yes, the only thing truly waterproof is your skin, plus you only get wet once. Walk or work all day in driving rain with wind you'll get wet. The better the shell gear the longer it will take, but you will get wet. It gets in through the neck, any high compression areas, i.e. rucsac straps, and wicking action through the back.
Better warm wet than cold wet so keep moving, maintaining that internal pressure to drive body heat out to maintain comfort.
 Andypeak 21 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo: there is a company from new zealand called ridgeline and there water proof stuff is absolutly brilliant. They are aimed at hunters so some of their stuff is in horrible camo style but they also make them in just plain green and some other colours I think. I've worn their gear all over the world in some terrible conditions and its always been pretty good and kept me dry. They are a bit hard to find in the UK but you can get them over here. They are massive in NZ and Oz.
 Root1 21 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo: Paramo can be variable, it has kept me bone dry in the worst of conditions, and leaked in less extreme weather. A lot is to do with how carefully you wash and proof it. Your machine must be totally clear of detergent. I clean out the detergent drawer with hot water and drain the machine completely. I then wash some ordinary clothes with a soap solution and then I wash and proof my paramo, and this usually works.
Contamination of the material by dirt or grease with affect how well it takes the proofing.
However it breathes so well and drys so quickly some leakage is acceptable.
Buffalo gear works in a similar way, it just leaks but moisture is wicked away from the body rapidly so you always feel warm, brilliant for winter climbing.
I would never go back to Goretex it always feels cold when wet.
 jonathandavey 23 Jan 2012
In reply to dermo:

An excellent article about this very problem from Andy Kirkpatrick:

http://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/articles/view/the_truth_about_breathable_wa...

There's a lot of detail but if you want the full answer it's probably the place to get it.
 Siward 23 Jan 2012
In reply to Root1: For those reasons I always wash and proof my Paramo in the bath- it works fine and also makes the bath water repellent for a couple of weeks afterwards!
 Timmd 23 Jan 2012
In reply to Monk:
> (In reply to Stefan Kruger)
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> See, I disagree. I stay nice and dry in some horrible conditions in both my gore-tex (now retired) and event jackets. Even my Paramo is excellent if it's not too warm out.
>
> Admittedly, you do need to be a little canny. Minimise what you are wearing underneath, use a long sleeve wicking base-layer, and taking steps to avoid over-heating.

When I got wet from sweat cycling in drizzle/driving rain it was possibly too warm for a Paramo I think, or I think I would have been with the exertion.

I guess I might have found the conditions where no clothing system can keep you warm and dry?

It was not too cold for wearing a t-shirt and jeans and a hoodie outside kind of weather while not exercising.

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