UKC

I went to climb at Pinacle Climbing Centre at Northampton today, and noticed that they currently charge £4.00 to enter the centre to belay only.

I questioned the person behind the counter, he attempted to justify this by saying that you are "still using the centre's line" and that "a lot of new centres charge for belaying only, including cardiff and many that are not council funded", I have done a brief search on most major climbing centres and can't find any that charge for belaying only.

This is the first time I have seen this at any centre, what are people's thoughts? I know I for one, would not go to a wall if I had to pay to belay when I was not climbing. Is this just a centre attempting to rip off customers? Any thoughts on this please?

Excuse the spelling of privilege, noticed it as soon as I pressed submit!

robbery!

In reply to staceyjg: Robbery. I haven't the evidence to know what the standard is, but I find that quite shocking anyway... I guess the only thing I can think of with which to redeem the staff member, is they may (no offence intended of course) think you might be tempted to nip up a climb without paying.

In reply to staceyjg:
, I have done a brief search on most major climbing centres and can't find any that charge for belaying only.


Perhaps some/most will charge you the full price for belaying so no need to differentiate ?

In reply to staceyjg: You're using thier facilities. Surely it's up to them if they want to charge, same as it's up to you if you want to pay.

In reply to Bulls Crack:

Nope, most of them say that belaying is free!

yes its their buisness so they can charge whatever they want, but, they stil make money from the non climber buying stuff while there there, also the climber wouldnt be there paying without them, its a bit cheeky, id vote with my feet

In reply to staceyjg:

could be corrected but at glasgow there is no fifference if you just want to belay or actually climb

In reply to staceyjg: I'd never really have thought of going to a climbing centre just to belay, to be honest...

In reply to staceyjg: all the ones I've been to charge entry for everyone. Westway stamp your hand if you've not passed their safety test.

In reply to duck tape fixes everything!!: Unless that's a new rule, then I've never payed at Glasgow to belay only.

In reply to Ramblin dave:

at glasgow climbing centre you could belay someone without paying. or at least that was what it was last year.

In reply to Loki:

I remember when dart rock first opened I went on club night to say hi before we went to the pub, one climber didn't have a partner so I belayed for maybe 3 climbs so he wasn't stood around. That kindness cost me 6 quid I think, I was not impressed!

Sam orange

In reply to staceyjg:

I've only paid to belay twice, both at local authority walls but the only time I only belay is taking kids climbing and some places you have to pay to join first (cos you need to be a member to supervise). That is usually £3 a year or even for life.

I'd have thought it likely most belay only custom was from people taking kids so they may be milking that market.

Just checking the Pinnacle website it only lists Adult belaying 1 child under 14 £4 so perhaps they don't charge if the climber is older than 14?

Do they charge £8 for belaying two children???

Still weirdy bollocks though.

In reply to winhill:

I know, I thought that when I saw the website, however I specifically mentioned a scenario that I accompany my boyfriend and not feeling well I don't climb, but offer to belay and I have to pay?? he didnt correct me and say it's only for children, he just said yes, and reeled off a number of reasons. I told him I disagreed with him and that i would remember that if a group of us were going climbing and I wasnt able to, we'd go somewhere that would charge to belay.

In reply to Sam Mayfield:

Dart rock in devon have just (at the new year) stopped charging for "belayer only" entry

In reply to staceyjg: Maybe in this scenario they should charge the climber double because they get to climb twice as much....or, maybe next time I go to the wall with my mate, we should only pay 1/2 price each, as in effect, we spend half our time belaying....

I'm only being facetious of course. Perhaps it's an indemnity type payment, in case a bolt-on falls on your belayers head?

Personally, I wouldn't pay for belaying, but then, I wouldn't pay for climbing either if I could get away with it!

In reply to Ramblin dave:

This is probably more of an issue for those parents who don't climb themselves but go to belay their kids. I know my mum does this (free of charge) for my little brother at Awesome Walls Stockport.

I would think that it's in the wall's interest to encourage parents to bring their kids and make it as finacially viable for the parents as possible as they will inevitably spend money in the cafe and gear shop.

In reply to staceyjg:

As others have said, its not uncommon for people to be charged a flat rate whatever they are doing so people just belaying or bouldering around with the kids still get charged full rate. Sounds like you are luckier than that.

I'd suggest that walls need to use their discretion on when to charge belayers. If the place is heaving and a belayer displaces a paying climber it seems fair that they should charge the belayer, OTOH if the wall is half empty they should consider letting the belayer in for free.

In reply to staceyjg:

If you're not feeling well, then should you be belaying anyway?

Although I could understand a variety of injuries where you might not want to climb and risk further damage, but are still perfectly capable of belaying safely.

In reply to staceyjg: Hiya Stacey. This is the 1st time of heard of this, makes you wonder if this will begin to appear in more walls up and down the country.....

In reply to staceyjg: Hi Guys, I'm "the guy behind the counter" and also happen to be the person behind The Pinnacle. Thanks for the comments, which we do listen to. I think the important thing is that our prices are clearly stated in the centre, on leaflets and the website. There are obviously pros and cons to each side and we believe it is fair. We pride ourselves on having a friendly atmosphere, and have indeed let people in to belay free if they are truely injured and would normally climb here. Some of the other comments are correct with regards paying for one thing and doing another, and indeed wall prices vary from one place to another, with some charging a higher entry and some lower. Our Task was to try and find a middle ground. Often centres with council funding (either now or historically) will be cheaper as they dont have the overheads or build costs of entirely self funded centres. Ultimately the choice is yours, but hopefully when you come to The Pinnacle, you will have a great time in a friendly and welcoming centre with loads of great routes and bouldering. Simon.

In reply to staceyjg:

Never noticed! A small charge would be acceptable I would have thought - they have to make a living

In reply to Bulls Crack: I've taken the kids to Ratho,the Peak and Low Port and never had to pay to belay them and tbh I would vote with my feet if asked.

In reply to staceyjg:

I have only been charged one for belaying only and that was £1, it was on a wall in London, I can't remember which one. The £1 was so they could say I was charged to come in t there insurers if anything went wrong, I was happy enough with that.

The wall I work at doesn't charge for belaying, and it seems quite common there for people to come in and belay, and not climb. Usually with children but not always.

In reply to staceyjg:

I've never really thought about it. But it makes sense to charge for entering the facilities. Belayer+Climber takes up just as much space as Climber+Climber. Although the total time climbing is probably a bit less; in which case, charging about half for the belayer sounds about right.

If it was free to belay, then if you and your partner climbs every day, it would make a lot of sense to have only one of you climb every other day (rather than every other route), and thus cut your entry fees in half for the same amount of climbing.

In reply to staceyjg:

Hi all. I am the manager at the Pinnacle centre. Interesting thread and interesting to see all the comments. As Simon has already mentioned we certainly do take all the comments on board. In my time managing climbing centres I have manged both a large, but heavily subsidised centre, (where we did not charge a belay only entry, and now the Pinnacle, a privately owned centre where we do. When our prices change in February the belay only entry price will actually go down to £3.50, (not as a result of this thread - it had already been decided), so it is something that we are always thinking about and trying to strike a fair balance. There have been occasions when we have been busy when customers have turned up, then decided not to come in and climb because they thought the centre was too busy. If that is because of belayers who are not climbing then we are losing money as a direct result. Running a business has become much more expensive in recent years, for all businesses. We are however striving to do our best to serve our customers in the best and fairest way possible.
Thanks everyone for your comments, and hopefully we'll see some of you at the centre!

Alex

In reply to staceyjg: When I take my son (11) and his friends climbing at Reading I can only belay for obvious safety reasons. I asked whether I had to pay and they said in a light hearted tone "No, it would be dangerous to climb without a belayer so you are doing us a favour". That's the sort of service I like from Reading. I don't believe The Ridge at Swindon charge either.

In reply to duck tape fixes everything!!:

Consider yourself corrected. As others have said, I've never been charged there just to belay.

In reply to Simon Ager:

That was quick, the website's been updated this morning!

In reply to lx:

How much of the centre can you see from reception - enough to judge it's too busy or do they leave because the car park's full? Or do you let people in to see how busy it is first and then offer them the decision?

In reply to Mr Andersson:

Yes, the same sense it makes for charging the spectators and for car parking and showers plus anyone who complains about the cold could put another £1 in the meter to turn the heating up another degree centrigrade.

In reply to winhill: I climb at pinnacle and yes you can see how busy they are before you pay, its all open plan, apart from bloddering room

In reply to Sam Mayfield: It cost you £3.00 Sam and we have now got rid of our belay only rate

In reply to robbie Warke:

never let the facts get in the way of a good story....

In reply to yesbutnobutyesbut:

Well not really. As a climber, you can't climb without a belayer so what the wall are effectively saying is that the cost is x per climber but you can only climb if there are two or more of you. If one doesn't want to climb we offer a small discount.

I guess Northamptonits are a bit of a disadvantage being in the middle of no where with little or no choice to go else where. The wall can do as they please.

In reply to Winhill:

The Pinnacle is a very large open planned centre, you can see pretty much every wall from reception. So it's quite easy to judge how busy it is from reception I'll think you'll find.

In reply to staceyjg:

It's complicated question. I think if a parent just wants to belay their children then it should probably be free. In all other scenarios I don't really see why a small payment shouldn't be expected.

In reply to staceyjg: High Sports in Basildon charge to belay.

In reply to EeeByGum:

Milton Keynes is less than 20 miles away. When my partner was injured and so couldnt climb, we went there.

In reply to lx:

Have I got the wrong end of the stick here ? To say your losing money by having someone belaying seems a bit odd to me.

Surely if someone is purely belaying then shouldn't there be a body on the end of the rope that's paid monies to use the wall. £££££££

You could argue that someone who is being belayed solely by a belayer should be paying less to use the wall as they will be on the route half the time as a pair of alternating climbers.££££££££££££

In reply to staceyjg: Most Walls arent built for climbers by climbers any more, they are purely there for the business of making money, they will wallet rape you all day long if they can.

In reply to lx:

How do you deal with insurance if you dont charge? To me the charge should cover likely insurance costs.

In reply to dan:

Really? I've rarely been to a wall even close to that description.

In reply to dan: disagree, and the wall in question is run by climbers,

that aside do you have any idea how much it costs to build/insure/run a wall of any decent size, if it was for the money then I am sure wall owners like Simon would be driving around in sports cars not a knackered transit!

In reply to staceyjg: Does that mean that you would have to pay to go in, if you only wanted a coffee?? I've never paid for belaying, I'd of walked out, it's outrageous.

In reply to Mr JustDoIt:

Well AFAIK the biggest overhead at any wall is staff costs.
So if I were a wall manager I'd have to look at what a discounted "belayer only' visit would cost me compared to a standard entry.

Slightly more staff time on entry (just because it is non-standard).
More staff supervision during the visit to ensure that you didn't just lie about climbing to get the discount.
Just as much time from floor-walkers as anyone else.
Just as much toilet-paper hot water etc as anyone else.

Not -seeing any good reason to give a discount - what have I missed?

In reply to i.munro:

Building goodwill with customers.

In reply to Charlie_Zero:

Well certainly with those you're letting in cheap but not so much with all the others the you have to charge more to compensate.??

In reply to i.munro:
Never seen this, a regal wave as the staff acknowledge you perhaps.
If you had a small enough team to make sure the word was passed around to each member and the person concerned was identified to each member of staff, never seen this. Or belay beanies in fluorescent yellow for easy identification.
Only if the one person climbing does double time (unlikely) and if a passing gaze is chargable due to having meters on you eyeballs.
A no shitting rule would suffice, perhaps make people weigh in and out in case they've laid one when the staff were otherwise occupied.
A spectator season ticket - cheap entry for a month/year.
Charging more for newer routes to cover the cost of route setting.
A sliding scale charge on how far the fire doors are opened in summer, depending on how much fesh air comes in.

In reply to staceyjg:
I live in the US and this is common practise here. The gym we climb at is $17 for a day pass, or $10 if you are just belaying! So if you take a beginner and are not going to be able to climb yourself you still have to pay.

In reply to staceyjg:

Only time I have ever wanted to belay only was a trip with a university club when we went to Laklenad climbing in Kendal, they wanted to charge me full price to belay only. I politely declined and spent my time helping coach some beginners in the club instead.
I can understand why they may want to charge a small fee for belayers where there is only 2 people as 1 paying climber with free belayer still takes up the same amount of space as 2 playing climbers. In a case where you have for example three people, but only one confident belayer, I think it would be fair to let the belayer in for free as they are still only using the space of two paying climbers.

In reply to i.munro: Doesn't everyone that gets in sign some sort of waver to say they are capable of belaying? Or even capable or climbing for that matter? and then given a card as membership to say so?

I don't think it warrants extra staff, unless the wall is very busy.

In reply to staceyjg:

I've just been out of action for 6 weeks after a knee op. I went along each week to the wall and belayed someone anyway, as it is a good atmosphere normally and a good evening out. But I wouldn't have paid for that. Usually the people I was with would not have been there spending money if I hadn't arranged to belay them.

Reading Wall were very accommodating and as someone said earlier this builds good will, making you go back.

In reply to thin bob:
At Reading Climbing Centre they are happy to let you come just to belay for a friend/child

In reply to staceyjg: As far as I'm concerned it's their wall and they can do what they want.

However, to me it makes no sense from a business point of view. If I had other options I would climb somewhere that didn't have the extra charge. If there were no other climbing wall options I would find something else to do with my time, possibly building my own bouldering wall.

I already refuse to go to one wall since it's main concern is squeezing as much money as possible from individuals rather than providing a decent climbing experience. Others agree since the only people you see there now are people on courses.

Don't judge the Pinnacle harshly just on this. As a non-belaying parent (serious vertigo in reverse) I've twice taken kids here and it's one of the most friendly walls we've been too. They fell over themselves to arrange belay tests for the kids so they could climb, let them in free as team members (they don't have to but this is evidence they're not money- grabbing) and didn't charge me because I'm obviously not going to sneak in a climb, which is clearly the point. Good place. Back off.

Its a rip off to charge for belaying only - like being charged to spectate at a swimming lesson. Having gone to dozens of climbing walls over the years both as a climber and belayer I can say I have never been charged to enter (and belay) unless I was climbing. I would say this is seriously out of line with the mainstream.

In reply to staceyjg: I guess the question is then, would all the negativity be stopped by charging another £1.30 per adult climbing, Which would be the same as MK and scrap belay only charge, the majority of our customers would be worse of, but it sounds like then we would not be the bad guys??? With regards to Walls being businesses, do you have any idea how much funding you need to build a decent climbing facility, and how hard it is to get bank funding these days, unless you have a good business model you would not stand a chance, and then climbers would not have any where near the choice of great facilities that are around now! Also, there has been little discussion here about value for money, try comparing all the facilities you get at different facilities, and things like how clean they are, do they heat the place, then make a decision about whether it's good value! Finally, Do all the climbers want facilities to expand and offer more, we are trying to but can only do that if we make some money in the first place to spend on the development? Simon.

In reply to Alister Martin: Thanks Alister, hope Buster has a good year in the comps, and we look forward to welcoming you back soon. Simon.

In reply to bz:

How many private swimming pools do you use? A climbing wall could make the decision on whether to charge based on belayers buying stuff from the cafe etc but otherwise why be completely free - they're still using the walls resources?

In reply to Simon Ager and lx:

I am not only opposed to charging belayers but pretty hostile to it. Under Cover Rock in Bristol does not charge belayers. You run a climbing centre, not a belaying centre. When I bring my step-daughter to UCR and belay her, UCR makes money from her entry fee and the money we both spend in the cafe. Occasionally I belay a friend if I am resting, have a cold etc. Your arguments about how good the facilities are in general in the centre is a side-issue: that can simply be about now much climbers should pay for entry. I'm glad I don't have to go to your wall.

In reply to ericinbristol:

and of course by 'have to', I don't mean that literally.

In reply to BruceWee:


And there we have it I think.

Climbing punters think they should be given a 'decent climbing experience' - presumably at minimum cost. Whereas most climbing centres as privately owned/run and so it is quite reasonable for the owners (and staff) to make a decent living out of it. It's a business.

The only time I've been very conscious of this as an issue was the old Rockface at Birmingham where the owners clearly wanted to sell out (it was in a development area) and they kept pushing the prices up. It was pretty clear they knew that they wouldn't be there for the long term so keeping customers happy wasn't their priority, and at the time there were no other serious local walls to provide competition. They did eventually sell out to developers (as they were quite entitled to do) but shut it down overnight without notice, laying off staff, groups turning up to find it shut; which all left a rather bad taste in the mouth.

However, that was a very specific instance and I don't think it has any bearing on people running a wall as a business both for the love of climbing and to make a decent living.

I have no problem with paying a decent amount for climbing indoors when I am climbing.

In reply to staceyjg:

I'm happy to travel a reasonable distance to climb if the wall is worth it and generally pay up to a tenner (I don't regularly climb at the London walls!).

If I was going to be charged to belay because for some reason I couldn't climb, I wouldn't go. Or would ask my partner to pay for me for the privilege of an awesome belay bunny.

In reply to JonC:



What we seem to have here is a group who think they should get this experience free & get offended when they're asked to pay to cover what they cost.

Pinnacle happily let people just wander in and sit about, use the cafe and the facilities. At weekends there can be parents everywhere, plenty of my mates have just come along to watch and it's no big deal and they even sell a beer for those who just want to watch. As a monthly paying member I've never had to think about being asked to pay for belaying only but I'm not sure I see the problem.
If you wanted to teach a mate to swim, then you'd have to pay to go into the water with him even if you weren't swimming. Same goes for teaching your kids to swim - going off Alister's experience, that's not the case at Pinnacle.

It's the friendliest wall I've been to, not that I've been to many and Simon, Alex and all the staff are pretty approachable and would be happy to chat about stuff like this over a cup of coffee at the wall. I know from personal experience that Simon's not out to rip anyone off, despite the fact that we have not a lot of other options in Northampton.

Kelvin

In reply to JonC:

I agree about the old Rockface point...all very sad.

I can't believe the number of people here who expect to belay for free when walls need to pay huge insurance premiums that might be needed if the belayer causes an accident.

In reply to Offwidth:

Depends if they are registered users or not at many places or signed the participation form etc.

I'm not sure why you find it difficult to believe, when in my experience it is more likely than not that belayers aren't charged? Historically the expectation is set now more walls are charging so they'll see some blowback, it's not hard to believe.

Insurance is pretty much a fixed cost not a day to day cost so that is why the charge for belaying doesn't seem related to running costs and it's not clear why the possible legal ramifications of insurance mean the cost allocation is any different from counting the number of toilet paper sheets?

At walls where they charge for belaying per se (or supervision) it can mean that a child and their belayer are charged more than an adult climber (Pinnacle is one Kendal too).

If anyone can show how a 20kg child and 70kg belayer is adding more to the centres running costs than a 70kg climber then I'd like to see the maths.

You can add in what you like, wear and tear on the door hinges, door handles, carpets, mats, air conditioning, insurance, hold cleaning, staff eyeball refurbishment, toilet paper sheets per pound of shit, whatever.

In reply to winhill:

Insurance premiums partly depend on claims which partly depends on user numbers. I wouldn't be very happy if the belayer next door caused a problem which hurt me or my partner and it turned out they were not covered by insurance. I'd sympathise if the climber was signed in formally as a 'no fee' entry if they were a regular and currently injured, or if it was wall policy at quiet times, otherwise they should pay as they add to route congestion and risk and everyone else would be covering their share of the costs.

I go to the climbing centre in Kendal.

Even the staff there are mythed as to whether I should pay to supervise every week to take my nephew climbing. Some times I get charged and sometimes I don't.

It's the difference between paying £9.50 of £7.50 for him to climb, with me supervising.

Complete rip-off as we are usually there for no more than 90 mins and he usually spends an hour on the bouldering wall!!

£4 sounds about the right price.

In reply to Offwidth:
If a single climber and non-climbing belay partner do the same number of routes per climbing team member as a pair of climbers then the belayer isn't adding to the risk, the cost of risk is covered by the climbers entry fee.

Single climbers won't add to congestion unless they do far more when climbing on their own than they do when paired, if they climb every session (paired or not) to their limit then they add zero to route congestion and may even ease congestion as they move from route to route more quickly.

Further up the thread I suggested that the majority of non-climbing belayers would be parents supervising kids, this is certainly borne out in my experience (I don't if walls would be able to confirm that with real figures but I know lots of parents in that position and would struggle to think of the last time I knew someone who turned up to belay an adult).

If the 'non-climbing belay market' is mostly made up of parents, and the wall charges more for a supervised child than for an adult entry then unless someone who is arguing the economics (and yes, a guy further up really did mention toilet paper FFS)can prove otherwise, the non-climbing belay market is paying more than their fair share not less.

In reply to bz:

That's a poor analagy. A belayer is participating in the climb, a spectator is not. Most walls don't charge to spectate.

A better comparison would be for a person giving swiming lessons by standing in the pool and holding up the novice swimmer.

In reply to winhill:

You're not making much sense to me. They are using the wall facilities even if they are not climbing and should pay. Of course belayers (only) add to the congestion, just like the climbers belaying who have paid.

I'm happy if the fee is proportionaly reduced.

In reply to winhill:
I don't if walls would be able to confirm that with real figures but I know lots of parents in that position and would struggle to think of the last time I knew someone who turned up to belay an adult.

I am going to my normal climing centre tomorrow to belay only, and my friend is an adult.
This is due to me having a hard training session today, and needing to have a day off to make sure that I don't pick up an injury before my comp on sunday.
I have also on a number of times gone there just to belay, and the centre that I climb at does charge for belay only. Way around this, get the person that will be climbing to pay for it.

In reply to Offwidth:

It's the maths thing, isn't it?

If 2 people climbed as a pair and managed 15 routes each before they were done that's a route congestion factor or 30.

If they split up and were belayed by non-climbing partners the route congestion factor remains at 30, unless they are able to do more routes because they have more time.

It's only when they do more routes than they would do otherwise that the congestion factor increases.

In reply to winhill:

I they split up though twice as many routes would be taken up. But that would have to have the time factored in too

In reply to staceyjg: I can understand that its a business but feel it stinks. I live down in Cornwall with my nearest wall being Granite Planet- this wall does not fit my personal need but would suit my son who is six.
If I were to go here I would have to pay a between £4.50-£5.50 for my son plus £3 for me to stand and belay for an activity that would last around an hour.
It feels light daylight robbery, stops my son climbing through the winter and reduces the money they get from me and I expect many others. If it was affordable then we would go regularly.
Unfortunately the Barn at launceston which is amazing is to far away- But here I would be prepared to pay because I would be able to get a bouldering session in with him.

In reply to i.munro:

Climbing walls are businesses and need to remain profitable. The question that wall managers and owners need to consider is whether they will gain or lose overall by making an entry charge for belayers. Market forces will win out in the end.

Goodwill is hard to assess and measure, and the priority a wall gives to keeping customers happy is likely to depend on what the competition for customers is like in the local area. If there are other climbing walls or crags within a short distance then customer retention will be a greater priority.

Non-climbing belayers may buy coffee and snacks, may spend money in the wall shop (if there is one), may recommend the wall as a venue for childrens' parties, or to novices who wish to take climbing lessons etc.

If there needs to be a charge to cover insurance, hot water, toilet paper, occupying space etc. then it needs to be set low enough to not discourage people from using the wall.

In reply to staceyjg: rock city in Hull Charge full price even if you are only belaying

In reply to staceyjg: I climb at Northampton regularly and can confirm they are one of the friendliest walls you could ever find and the set up is excellent. I do think they have made a mistake here though. I think in the end it will put more people off than they will ever recoup from this charge. I was once charged at an other wall and then deliberately didnt go back so overall they loose out.

In reply to Bonzo5b: If they let you belay for nothing then they'll have to charge climbers more to make the same income, whether they're privately owned or not. I think a smallish charge is reasonable.

In reply to staceyjg: So here is your approach.

"I'm just going to walk into this centre and practice one of the most valuable skills in the sport and this should be free just because I'm not putting my hands and feet on the wall."

Quite frankly that strikes me as pretty shallow. I would rather pay the Pinnacle price than waste the fuel it would cost me to drive out to Big Rock. Also I would rather go to friendly centre like the Pinnacle where both staff and customers are willing to chat and share advice.

I can't believe you don't think it's fair to pay to use the facility when Simon is paying to clean it, heat it, staff it, insure it. Your investment seems pretty minor really for what you are getting. Just because other centres allow you to belay for free, it doesn't mean that should be the going rate across the country.

If you have a proposed business model I suggest you go and buy a large open plan warehouse and a few tonnes of steel and wood, employ people to build it into a wall, then go and make a few hundred climbing holds, employ somebody to set challenging and fun problems then you can come on UKC and tell us all about how happy your belayers are.

In conclusion; Climb more, complain less.

In reply to winhill:

Are you really that dim? With the pair of climbers you would have 2 people in the center efficiently climbing 60 routes. With two dedicated belayers you have 4 people in the center for pretty much the same time (the climbing period of a route is about right for a rest, unless you are stamina training). If everyone did this at busy times it would be a nightmare.

In reply to Nick Allen:

I agree with you!

The staff at Pinnacle are climbers – They are helpful, friendly and handle fussy tea orders well.

Personally I think it’s not unreasonable at all to be charged a reduced rate to belay only and to be honest I would not have any issue paying £3.50 to belay.

I know this is completely location dependant but for me it would cost more in fuel to get to Milton Keynes and back than it would to spend £3.50 to belay – So unless you have a few indoor options in a reasonable distance you have to weigh up the costs of transport to save £3.50.

Plus in most situations unless you’re a none climbing parent or poorly you’ll be attending a climbing wall to climb =)

In reply to KatieG: I've been to the wall just to belay if I'm injured or just too knackered to climb. If one of my friends is desperate to climb but can't find a partner or I just want to hang out with my climbing buddies then I do this.

If there was a charge to belay then I wouldn't go and neither would whoever I was climbing with.

I'm not appalled at the idea of charging to belay but it just doesn't feel like the right thing to do so I would be less inclined to visit that wall at any time.

Like I said, it's up to the individual wall to decide if not having my business and the business of others who feel the same way is worth the extra money they make from charging belayers.

In reply to Bonzo5b:

That's an interesting place, a one off visit for me would cost over £30 just to take the kids in and my missus would have to sit in the car!

The Zero Tolerance Policy on drugs and violence makes it sound like they've had trouble in the past, so the good news is there must be some money in Hull but the downside is it is mainly drug money?

Weekly costs for what we do now would be £50, although £20 if we booked it all in advance, at Alter Rock (totally different type of facilites, granted) it is £16 or £6 if booked in advance.

In reply to Offwidth:

You're letting this get anyway from you now, focus on the time spent on the route (route congestion) it is exactly the same until the NCB climber starts to do more work because they have more time.

Even if the wall is extremely cramped and a belayer/climber prevents people from using other routes whilst climbing (so they block more than one route, or more precisely lower off) it still doesn't make any difference until the climber does more than their usual climb.

Some cramped walls it make look more busy as there are more people on the floor but there aren't more people on the routes. Whether this becomes a 'nightmare' is more to do with perception than reality.

Whether this perception translates into economic cost to the wall (as Pinnacle man said further up) is the interesting point.

Obviously very difficult to quantify this, people have very different notions of what constitutes a crowded wall, plus if people arrive and leave you can get some measure of it but some may just drift off to other walls without giving any indication that they have done so for that reason.

In reply to winhill:

What a load of blather.. you just want free entry at the expense of the rest of us. At my local wall you often have to queue for routes mid week evenings so there is no way I want freeloaders making the crowding worse at peak times.

In reply to staceyjg: When I did my ankle in i still went occasionally to belay a couple of times because I wanted to and because of the banter and the 'craik'. I paid the full price but it was my choice to go and I enjoyed it so I was paying for the privelige to keep in touch with people and the enjoyment. I could have chosen not to and then I would not have had to pay. Itsd a free market. I don't know what the current policy at the place I go, hence I'm not saying where.

In reply to staceyjg:

Westway charge FULL PRICE for belayers; Amersham is free

In reply to GrantB:

Really?

The issues are as I said insurance (ie a no-fee sign in is required as a minimum); use of facility and overcrowing (where Winhills arguments are plain wrong for the reason I detailed and he studiously ignored). I'd strongly favour sympathy of treatment for injured climbers, regulars who normally climb, people coming at quiet times and those extensively using the cafe. However, the idea there is no cost to bear from just belaying or no inconveneince to others at busy times is idiotic.

In reply to Offwidth:

The cost is so small it made up for by annual £3 membership, you're not arguing at all, just grumpy old man style ranting at the injustice of the world.

You're being very quick with the insults, very slow in reason.

I detailed further in the thread, why IMHO, walls that charge more for the NBC market are using that market to subsidise the other climbers, and Pinnacle have said that they would charge more if they didn't charge to belay but didn't confirm the breakdown of that market.

Let's be very clear about this, unless you can produce some very exact figures (and your aversion to evidence and numbers suggests this is unlikely), it is YOU who are trying to climb at the cost of others, not me.

In reply to winhill:

I agree with Offwidth and I am someone who happily pays an annual sub of £300 to my local wall (Bear Rock) and has no axe to grind.

There is clearly a number of costs associated with running a wall. Anyone using the wall facilities should in theory pay for using them. That includes non-climbing belayers who are allowing the actual climber to do more climbing and causes more wear and tear than one climber alone (in other words they make as much use of the facilities as two climbers).

Incidentally, my wall has no cafe or shop, so it has no other way to recoup costs from climbers than charging for entry. I don't actually know if it charges non-climbing belayers for entry but suspect it does as it is part of a much larger facility and I doubt they'd let you into the wall wihtout paying full stop (unless as a parent with a group of children, say). Could be wrong though.

At busy times, which is mostly when I go, the wall is pretty rammed. If there were many non-paying belayers letting one or two climbers hog panels I think I would have a right to be pretty hacked off. Thankfully that doesn't happen so far as I can tell.

Having said that, having been there myself, I have a lot of sympathy for injured climbers basically wanting to hang out with their mates and people visiting in quiet times.

I think that for most walls there must be a happy medium which, to my mind, could well include charging something for belayers. Personally I'd not charge full rates, which I think would feel unfair as there is a charitable element in being the belayer. I agree it would also be counterproductivein a business sense. However, I don't see the harm in maybe charging 50% of full rate and leaving flexibility.

I'm not sure why it is so wrong to charge say a non-climbing parent and their child around £10 to climb. I don't think that is daylight robbery. Look at cinema prices nowadays!

Which makes me think of a comparison.

if you take your child to the cinema, they'll charge both of you won't they. Telling them that you don't really want to see the latest 3D animated kids film isn't going to wash. You have a bum on a seat and you pay cos you're taking up room and using facilities.

It's almost exaclty the same I'm afraid.

In reply to those who think you should pay to belay:

No matter how convincingly you think you are arguing the case, it seems there are many climbers here who go to a wall to climb, not to belay and will not therefore pay to belay. Yeah, maybe I SHOULD but I won't.

In reply to winhill:

"you're not arguing at all, just grumpy old man style ranting at the injustice of the world"

Pot, Kettle and Black comes to mind.

Seems to me its up to you to prove the financial details of the case, I'm happy with the status quo. I'm the first public member of my local wall and know the staff well. Also, through the peak BMC area I got to hear about the issues that affected The Foundry, Edge, Works etc over the years. Then again as Niall Grime's video shows if you stick the fly cam up Graeme A's nose all people look like is $ and £ signs.

In reply to JonC:


This is the bit that doesn't add up. Most climbers I know climb until they're knackered. Therefore, if you go climbing and don't belay you won't be doing any more routes than normal, or creating any more wear and tear. In fact, you'll probably do fewer climbs than if you went with a climber, as you'll have less resting time and will tire faster.

In reply to GrantB:

That's an interesting point except that unfortunately, due to work, I rarely get there early enough to be too knackered to climb by the time I leave. It would be great to have the time to spend most of the evening at the wall but unfortunately I rarely manage more than an hour or two tops. if I had a NCB really could do twice as much climbing. I accept that for some this isn't true however.

As you seem to acknowledge though, that is only part of the picture. You're still taking up as much space (one panel) as two 'normal' climbers and using facilities in the sense of heating/lighting/insurance/staff.

In reply to GrantB:

I'll try and explain this again.

If a wall were to choose to let a non-climbing visitor in at a discount they then need to monitor that person in order to ensure that they do not climb.

To fail to do this is to issue a blanket invitation to every dishonest bugger to claim the same discount.

Paying staff to monitor people like this costs money, lots of money.

So the discounted non-climber then pays less but costs much more.

In reply to Nick Allen:

I feel I was making a valid point. At the end of the day, my local walls are Redpoint and Bear Rock, both friendly walls, both great places to climb, and both within 20 minutes drive from my house, so I am very lucky, but as I climb at both of them every week, we like to travel as a group, to other walls, to experience the routes, the atmosphere etc.

If it so happens that a group of us are going climbing, maybe meeting up with other friends, and one or other of us can't climb for some reason...bad knee, resting due to other climbing sessions... whatever. We would not climb at a wall that would charge to belay if we have a choice of so many others that don't

We travelled for an hour to get to Pinnacle on Sunday, fortunately we were all climbing, we had a great time, and I dont think this is a reflection on the quality of the wall, just something I feel strongly about, and as this is a free world, I have free speech to voice my opinion and ask others of theirs. There is nothing wrong with that.

I may be a bit slow here but their seems to be an opinion that the more people you have at a wall the running costs are increased - may be if they all use toilet paper or drop loads of rubbish or if there were loads of staff costs. Take my local wall - on a typical sunday morning when it opens there are usually about 10 people climbing there are two people behind the desk and three floor walkers - as the morning progress the place fills up - still using the same electricity and heating - same staff costs - the only over head is tea and cakes but then we pay for those so making more money - if we all use toilet paper then yes over heads. But my point still costs the same to run for 10 or 20. Why not charge people to come in and use the cafe as well - that is when insurance comes into the equation due to maximum numbers allowed due to fire and H&S. In the case of the Pinnacle where there is a problem of people coming in and thinking it is too busy - it is not the number of people on the floor standing around but the number climbing. I take my kids climbing and don't pay to belay - but if I go with climbing pals I will pay full price as I climb and use the wall. Ultimately it's up to the wall managers if they want to charge and you don't like it down't use the wall - if yu have to travel to find another wall then you end up paying the same anyway.
I just don't see the justification of saying the wall cost more if it is full or empty - the cost differences for peak and off peak are to encourage people to climb off peak to make some money and more when most people climb.

In reply to Ceemore:

Let's put it another way then.

You have 2 climbing walls with 50 roped lines each. In one of them you have 50 paying climbers belayed by 50 non-paying belayers. In the other you have 100 paying climbers taking turns to belay each other. The running costs are the same, both are at full capacity, one of the walls has money to expand and reset regularly, the other one doesn't. Which one is which?

P.s. Not aimed at you personally, you just happened to be the last poster.

In reply to staceyjg: Don't know about anyone else but if I'm climbing with a non climbing belayer I don't spend double the time on the wall. I either climb the same way I would if I had a climbing belayer except instead of belaying I'm sitting about drinking coffee and having a chat between climbs.

Or I get overexcited and climb continuously until I can't climb anymore which normally means I spend less time actually on the wall since I knacker myself out after about an hour instead of my usual three hours.

Like I said, don't know about anyone else though.

In reply to staceyjg:
I'm happy to let you come and belay me at Awesome in Liverpool if you like.
I don't charge anything at all, as long as you buy the tea and cakes and pay the tunnel etc.

In reply to ChrisMaw:

Partly but isn't there also an element of trying to spread the load making it a more enjoyable experience for the punter thus encouraging him/her to come more often and spend?

I know I've been put off venues by overcrowding. The trouble, for the operator, is that this has created a negative effect on my opinion of the wall which I pass onto friends. Analysing my attitude shows it to probably be unfair, but the damage is done so far as the wall owner is concerned.

In reply to Mr Lopez:

Does that not rest on two assumptions though. Firstly it assumes that there are a lot of pairs with only one person climbing, rather than a fairly small proportion of the pairs. Secondly that the wall is saturated to the point where people are turning/being turned away.

Only if both of those assumptions regularly simultaneously hold is it worth charging for belaying. Otherwise you're potentially turning away one definite paying person in the hope of a full climbing pair being available to take that place, that unless you hit saturation aren't going to arrive.

In reply to Ramblin dave:


If you've never had an injury serious enough to knock you out of climbing for a couple of months then count yourself lucky. Having been in that position, being able to do something with climbing partners and maintain at least some social involvement meant a great deal to me at the time.

In reply to ChrisMaw:

The problem isn't increased costs, it's reduced income. If they have 100 pairs of climbers paying £5 per person to climb that's 200 paying punters and a total income of £1000. If they have 100 paying climbers each with a belayer getting in free they'll only take £500.

In reply to Howard J:

But if the climber doesn't climb because he doesn't have a belayer, that income is lost

In reply to Howard J:

It's both. Insurance is one of the biggest costs of modern walls. Non paying belayers have the same risk of accident as anyone belaying and this is pretty much proportional to volume of use (risk may even increase at busy times as it's harder for wall staff to monitor and climbers adding risk to neighbours also increase when every rope is occupied and some have queues). Registering the climber for entry is also a fixed cost (it might sound trivial but think about a minute a visit with staff and system overheads). Keeping an eye on the customers for safetey purposes is also really a fixed cost.

In the end though its the effect on other users that is key and that mainly means congestion. Walls can choose to discount entry for any reason they like (I especially like the idea of pricing or competition support etc to encourage young talented locals) but they need to avoid upsetting the majority of users by such policies and in that, encouraging non-paying belayers at the busiest times is business madness.

Of non-climbing belayers, non-climbing parents (or partners) are arguably the worst group in terms of their affects on others (similar to the parent teaching you to drive effect).. most are very well behaved but there are a significant vocal minority that are unpleasant to be near to due to their bullying behaviour, encouragement of pushing to hard, over-training, etc (issues that are well understood in the research around nurturing success whilst avoiding injury in youth climbing). Walls often respond to this and try and talk through the issues and eductate but this is more time and cost.

In reply to all:

In my many many years of using, owning and running indoor climbing walls I can’t remember ever having any more than a few ‘belay only’ customers in at once.

The way I see it is that if we can operate a successful indoor climbing business with out the need to charge for ‘belaying only’ then we will continue to do so.

That handful of ‘belay only’ people would soon dwindle if I started to charge them for the privilege of helping out with their chosen active climber, I’m sure.

Everyone that belays must be a member (we don't charge for memberships either but that’s another story/thread!). To be a member you will have to fill in a membership form stating that amongst other things you can belay.

If someone did blatantly lie about ‘belaying only’ then climbed, shame on them! If we noticed or if this was brought to our attention then we’d ask the said climber to pay and politely state that if this was to happen again we would not welcome their custom and notify the other local walls of the situation.

With regards to bouldering centres which no one has mentioned. We do not charge for people to come in with their friends, family or groups. These extra people will also fill the place up, use the toilets and benefit from our free wi-fi. Any one that steps into the actual climbing area to help, coach, instruct, or just say hello will need to be a member so they are aware of the dangers in doing so.

Insurance is based mainly on turnover with a few other small factors added in (past claims, wages, etc...). Charging or not charging belayers would not have any effect on this.

Every climbing wall has the right to charge what they see fit and appropriate. How they justify their charges are up to them, it’s part of their business plan which they will have worked hard to put together and may not want to share that information with others.

This is just my privileged take on the situation.

Happy climbing and belaying to all,



Dave Douglas
Awesome Walls climbing Centres Ltd
Liverpool/Stockport/Stoke-on-Trent/??????

http://www.awesomewalls.co.uk/

In reply to D Douglas: Stockport/Liverpool: Well said !!!

In reply to D Douglas: Stockport/Liverpool:

Sounds like a very well balanced approach

PS Love Stoke

In reply to staceyjg:

Priviledge: a new type of Big Wall convenience?

In reply to Bulls Crack:

Actually that would be a great brand name!

In reply to D Douglas: Stockport/Liverpool:

I think Dave sums up the view of most people very succinctly, though any wall owner of course has the right to charge whoever they wish, whether they alienate customers or not in doing so.

Good will is a fast disappearing commodity in this day and age and to penalise a customer who helps you out by allowing another to give you income is short sighted in my view.

They probably will use your toilet, they might use the wifi, but they also might buy your food and coffee and bring their friends next time.

The registered member who is belaying negates any insurance argument. It's a little different at TCA as we are bouldering only, but it would be harsh to charge any member supervising another guest but not climbing themselves.

In reply to Ava Adore:

That sounds like a corner shop in Yosemite!

In reply to D Douglas: Stockport/Liverpool:

Thankyou very much for your contribution to the discussion, it is very much appreciated, and in agreeance with Ava, I also love Stoke very much and hope to someday visit Stockport as I've heard good things about it.

In reply to Bulls Crack:

Very funny, put a smile on my face.

In reply to all others:

I can see that there is a big divide between those that agree with paying and those that don't and I don't think that will change anytime soon. Thanks to everyone that joined in with this. It was nice to see a discussion on UKC not turn sour amongst users.

I have seen some reasoning behind paying for belaying, but it has still not changed my opinion about whether I would pay to belay, I would alway chose to go somewhere else if I was unfortunate enough to not be climbing but still wanting to socialise with climbing friends and potentially be a belay bunny.

In reply to Paul Twomey:

"The registered member who is belaying negates any insurance argument."

I still have to disagree on this point, sure they are insured to climb but if an accident happens that generates a claim based on the actions of the non paying belayer the likely premium increase is still there. Plus they are part of the wall user numbers that the insurance charge is based on (if they are insured).

If non climbing belayers are getting in for free that's a privilege, it's neutral if they get in at about cost, its a rip-off if they are charged anything like full entry. All options are within the choice of the wall though... free entry to belay isn't a "right" just because you don't climb.

In reply to Offwidth:

Public Liability cover is about having people on your premises, nowt to do with whether they have paid to be there.

The Climbing Works makes no charge for belaying only

In reply to Graeme Alderson:

Love the climbing works too.... I can go there without having to pay to belay!

In reply to Offwidth:
>Insurance is one of the biggest costs of modern walls.

No it isn't. Insurance has been reasonable and stable for walls for about the last 7-8 years.

Our total insurance ie Public Liability, Employers Liabilty, Business Interruption Cover, Office and Shop Stock Cover is approximately the same as our monthly wage bill. It's about 25% of our rent. Its approximately equal to our Business Rates and to our Bank charges (which includes card processing fees). Its probably less than we spend on holds a year and probably about the same as Percy's spending on new bits of wall and power tools.

It is approx 2% of our annual expenditure.

In reply to Graeme Alderson:

This implies that wages are only 24% of your costs (2% x 12 months) ??
I know it's a big place but .....

In reply to Graeme Alderson:

That's interesting Graeme, I remember an Adrian Berry article 2004/5 on BMC or Planet Fear, perhaps (?) saying that insurance cost had quadrupled since 9/11 and had become onerous. I assumed they would have gone up significantly since then. I think it was about 2% of income/turnover then.

Are your insurance costs much less than a mixed wall? Again working from poor memory, I thought bouldering accidents were 75% of total claims, roped 25%?

In reply to staceyjg: I work at a wall that charges £1 for belay entry this is only charged so that the system logs the members entry, however we might rethink this if we got to a point where full paying customers were being turned away regularly. Ive read the whole thread and noone seems to have mentioned a couple of points.
Firstly ive seen lts of people pay thier £1 to belay, spend an hour belaying for thier kids but then think its ok to spend the next hour bouldering while they "supervise" the kids.
Secondly why assume that if the climber doesnt have a belayer getting in for free they wont climb? If i dont have a belayer i would go to the same walls and boulder instead. The wall still gets my entry and there is only one person using the centre.

In reply to staceyjg:

Hi Stacey, my local wall charge £4 to belay. I did think this was unfair. It means I would think twice about taking the children to climb, as it would cost me too much. I find it irritating that I have to pay extra to take my child climbing, especially when I can't climb myself. When it cost up to £8 per child to climb, I have 2 and then add on the £4 belay charge.......well I don't bother. However, I do see that I'm using the centre so I suck it up but it pi**es me off!

I guess the main group helped by the 'belayers are free' offer is parents belaying for kids. I'd guess most walls think it is good business to make it affordable for non-climbing parents to take kids climbing because:
a. Encouraging kids to climb means more adult customers when they grow up and is generally good for the sport and the wall industry.
b. Kids don't generally climb in the evening when the wall is busy with adults and it fills up the facility at off peak times.

Either way I don't see the free belayer option as a divine right: it is just one possible way an operator can arrange their charges.

In reply to Graeme Alderson:

We've now decided to also not charge for lead climbing or top roping too!

In reply to kvf:
>Firstly ive seen lts of people pay thier £1 to belay, spend an hour belaying for thier kids but then think its ok to spend the next hour bouldering while they "supervise" the kids.
Secondly why assume that if the climber doesnt have a belayer getting in for free they wont climb? If i dont have a belayer i would go to the same walls and boulder instead. The wall still gets my entry and there is only one person using the centre

Now that is just out of order.... if you are going to a wall to belay only, or spectate, then you do just that, you don't climb, whether it's with a child or anyone. Simple, that's just dishonest, but I don't see why everyone gets penalised for a few dishonest people.

and to your second point... not everyone boulders and not all walls have decent bouldering areas!

>In reply to paul twomey:

Excellent, which wall do you own? I will be sure to visit!

I mentioned this thread to the owner of Redpoint when I was there tonight, and if Phil doesn't mind me saying, his exact words were:

"we don't charge for belaying only..... if you're not climbing, you're obviously not having fun"

For me, that says it all!

In reply to staceyjg: I take our daughter climbing at Evesham and to give them their due it's a sh*** wall but they don't charge for you to belay your kids.

In reply to Graeme Alderson:

I'm frankly amazed, have probably been hoodwinked and apologise to everyone here for overstating wall public liability insurance costs.

In reply to staceyjg:

tca!

In reply to staceyjg:
I take a small group of school climbing, and, despite the fact that none of them would be able to belay me as even with a sand bag I would be a little heavy for comfort, I still get charged to belay [£3 them, £3.50 me, not even half price]
I think this is a bit of a nuisance. I am bringing them the customers of the future!