UKC

So at one end of the spectrum you have chipping/wire brushing - you don't do it
At the other end of the spectrum you have litter - you don't do it
So why 'vandalise' the rock with over the top vast amounts of totally unnecessary chalk?
Ok the rain will wash most off but not the overhanging rock and it seems boulderers dont seem to be bothered about brushing it off afterwards.
I don't understand why this is acceptable?

Be ashamed boulderers.

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King:

But it makes the rock pretty and more interesting to look at.

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King: It's not acceptable, responsible boulderers don't use chalk excessively and clean it off when they've finished.

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King:

Nice knee jerk.

http://yorkclimbers.com/forum/topics/aving-the-crack?xg_source=activity

Be ashamed trad climbers.

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King:

Also, are these not the same end of the spectrum?

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King:

You're right. Most chalk is used as a mental crutch, rather than as an aid to reduce moisture.

The other thing I've thought of is that chalk-marks kind of show where you've been- which is a kind of ego/ marking your territory/ marking your progress thing. I've experienced this myself in the past. It probably doesn't even occur that this is both unsightly and very possibly deleterious to the rock. After all- indoor climbing walls are coverered in chalk, and that's where most people learn to climb.

Hence a habit and a behaviour is made.

In reply to Ander:

I am just as guilty as others but i do try to use as little as possible and at least try to remove it afterwards and yes, it is not just boulderers.

In reply to metal arms: http://yorkclimbers.com/forum/topics/aving-the-crack?xg_source=activity

Be ashamed trad climbers.

These are not proper trad climbers - they're little boys playing at it!

Goucho: If only!

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=466637&v=1#x6490930

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/profile.php?id=7880

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King: yet another moaning post, christ you must be bored. yawn

In reply to remus: If you've got to mark where the holds and runners are, on a route thats over 30 years old, you're a little boy..end of!!!!!!

And yes, I'm aware that Mitch can climb hard - still (and even harder in the 70's/80's), which is why his predilection for 'chalk ticking' routes, is so unnecessary, as he doesn't need too!!!!!

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King:

It's one thing using chalk on harder routes, with smaller holds, that's ok, however chalk shouldn't be used on easier routes, certainly not V Diffs etc, and not really below VS/HVS...there's no justification in plastering a classic V Diff with chalk...

In reply to HappyTrundler:

i reckon you probably only possibly need chalk on english 6a upwards

In reply to Bobhart85:

I have no idea how christ feels today but yes i am bored, very bored in fact - VERY BORED OF SEEING CHALK EVERYWHERE!

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King:

Probably only possibly?! Depends...there are plenty of smooth sweaty limestone 5b moves that need a liberal dose of white gold !!!...

As you probably know, Avon was the birthplace of the 'Clean Hand Gang'...feelings ran high in those days...there's only one left, to my knowledge...

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King:

I find that a small amount of chalk improves friction considerably on certain holds/ rock types. The amount required to do so does not normally leave a visible mark on the rock.

What really annoys me is when there is so much chalk that it is caked onto the hold and you can actually peel it off with your finger nails. This level of chalk actually makes the friction far worse.

At popular venues, I never use my own chalk because after a few moves your hands are covered in everyone else's.

In reply to HappyTrundler:

That's probably true on the whole given the types of holds you find, but it also comes off as a bit elitist. For someone who's really gripped on one of their first outdoor leads, telling them that they shouldn't be using chalk because it's "too easy to need it" seems a bit wanky.

I've only recently got chalk (never really felt the need for it before) but I'm tying to keep to an ethic of not putting it on indoors until I've failed without it, in the hopes that this'll keep me thinking about whether it's actually going to be any use rather than just putting it on by default...

In reply to HappyTrundler:


Yes i have climbed with him, and he is absolutely right.

In reply to HappyTrundler:

My view is that one persons E5 is another's VD. We all have differing limits and equal rights to technology to help success. In some respects the VD climber is more justified: they are more likely to hit something if they fall off and less skills to get them out of trouble. The key issue is better education of how and when chalk makes a difference and avoiding overuse and unneccesary use through that. Ranting here doesnt help us move in that direction.

In reply to Ramblin dave:

My main gripe is not that people feel the need to use it but that so many are quite happy to just leave it there afterwards (and, again, i admit i have been guilty of this)

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King:

Nothing better than a reformed sinner to make a fiery preacher?

In reply to Offwidth:

It may help if people are totally unaware that what they are doing is inappropriate.

In reply to Offwidth:

Dont lump me in with bollox religions FFS!

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King:


Sang in Morrisey alto....

Suffer Little Traddies

Oh John Gill.... so much to answer for.
You cannot hide the chalk-stained high rocks of the moors from the trads like the hairy monster Formerly Known as Pylon King

Chalk and Gymnastic Dynamics . . .

'The use of momentum in gymnastics provided a key for a controlled dynamical approach to climbing.

It seemed perfectly reasonable to me that rock climbing - as a kind of gymnastic activity, rather than an extension of hiking - should have a substantial dynamic component. Simple jumps and "lunges" had been done for years - but difficult skilled and precise gymnastic "releases" upon rock required greater strength, more effort, and more practice.

The age of the dyno had arrived (although the word itself didn't appear until the late 1970s). The serious use of momentum became a choice of style, and not simply a desperate technique of last resort.

And no gymnast would work on challenging releases without chalk - neither should a climber.'

From: http://www128.pair.com/r3d4k7/HomePage1.html

Seriously though, it is an issue, even on the Pestered Isles where the rain falls for 40 days and 40 nights each season.

Come on fellow 'climbers who boulder' do not give the Formerly Known as Pylon King to bring you down...... brush after you have executed your graceful athletic movement up small rocks

Mick

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King:

In the beginning there was only rock then man fell from the way and lo chalk appeared and FKaPK was angry and said until man repented of his chalk the way to full ascension would never be acheived, so man must reject chalk or join the fallen.

In reply to Offwidth:

Here's that John Gill again....

'When I demonstrated the efficacy of chalk - which I had bought at the Jackson Pharmacy - most climbers were instantly seduced, although some purists initially rejected it as unethical (Chouinard had qualms).

The use of chalk quickly spread to Yosemite and to the east coast. In 1958 I brought chalk to Devils Lake - which made a substantial difference on the warm, slippery quartzite. The next few years saw the use of chalk spread throughout the world climbing community.'

In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC:

Key words:

Overuse

cleaning off afterwards

In reply to Offwidth:

not angry but sad

In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC:



its not cool though is it?

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King: Venue/crag Police on a purge today then??

In reply to climber_medic:

Aye

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King: I am now old and weak;thus the pre chalking.No apologies.Most of it washes off.

Mitch

In reply to paul mitchell:

Hi Paul,

How can you justify your pre-chalking stance, when you think mats invalidate ascents? Can you not see the double standards involved?

Regards

Chris

In reply to HappyTrundler:

Two left of the Clean Hand Gang that I know of: Kev Rogers as well as Steve Findlay.

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King:

I think you're right. I'd say the majority of climbers don't realise it's innappropriate.

In reply to Ander:

Or even that it's 'usefulness' is anyway qualified- ie that it would be normal for hands to be chalked for every move- in particular for hands to be chalked before leaving the ground, irrespective of route.

In reply to ericinbristol: Pssst ... whisper .. whisper ... there is a rumour that Mr * has dipped into the pouch of goodness

I find that when I'm at my limit using chalk is a massive hinderence.....it is such a waste of effort, hanging off on one hand in order to dip the other. i climb faster without.

Chalk is seriously over rated and probably is the indirect cause of many falls due to accelerated fatique.

Anybody want to buy a little used chalk bag to enhance my saftey?

In reply to paul mitchell:

I remember having a difference of opinions with you a while ago about the grade of Frankland's Green Crack. I thought you were being an idiot. Thanks for confirming that you are, indeed, an idiot.

In reply to victim of mathematics: I think its VS as well.

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King:


Are we talking exclusively about pre chalking here?
It's just that I've never seen anyone ab back down a route they've just climbed purely in order to clean the chalk off.

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King:


How does this constitute a spectrum? I'm confused.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:



I guess at one extreme you have behaviour that would ruin the climbing experience for others but go unnoticed by non_climbers (landowners, walker ..) while at the other you have behaviour that might infuriate those other groups but has no direct effect on the climbing?

In reply to mcdougal:

No


Well they bloody well should if its overhanging and unaffected by rain.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

Our effect on the climbing environment/rock etc.

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King:


You'd seriously ab down under a roof, with all the faff that entails, to clean the chalk off?

Straw poll:

Who's ever abseiled a route in order to clean the chalk that they left whilst climbing it?

In reply to mcdougal:

I know, its not going to happen but theres no excuse with bouldering

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King: Mats don't necessarily invalidate ascents.Why look to others to ask if one's ascent is 'valid'?
This is probably only important on first ascents.If others have tried a project without mats,maybe a mat ascent is 'cheating'.

Whether I use chalk or not is nobody else's business.I don't need anyone to approve the style of my ascent.Your disapproval of my chalk use is a waste of your time.Look to your own style,but don't try to force it on me.Like I repeatedly say,chalk washes off.Get over it.I generally think modern climbers don't have the courage of previous generations.A few do indeed have balls,but the human tendency is to take the easy option.Mats give you the easy option.If the route was done without mats then the challenge is to do the route without mats.
Not accepting the challenge is fine.The achievement of a matted ascent is judged competitively by different criteria to a non matted ascent.The point is that 'validity' is a matter for the individual.Whether you use a mat or not is up to you.Sometimes I use them and sometimes not.I mark myself down for style points if I 'solo' with a mat.How you mark yourself for style points is entirely up to you.
I respect non matted ascents more than matted ascents,even if the route was practised on ab or top roped.Matted ascents may be impressive,but a
non matted ascent is better because the price of a fall is much higher.
Matted ascents have not achieved the ideal of an ascent with minimal gear for the actual ascent.The more gear,the more 'tainted 'the ascent.
That is my criterion;just an opinion.

This forum is hopefully a means to exchange information and opinions,not to lay the law down.

Mitch

I make comments,but I never expect them to become law.Climbing 'law' is consensual,but ultimately climbing is about expressing oneself in one's own way.A bit of chalk is no disaster.Competition is normal,but it should not be the only basis for judgement.When some of you are so crippled you can hardly move,you will understand the need for freedom and lack of browbeating in climbing.

In reply to paul mitchell:

I am not sure why you have aimed all of that at me!
I am not interested about mats/chalk/tick marks/whatever being used in style/ ethics etc, i am simply pointing out that mindless overuse of chalk is defacing the rock where rain cannot wash it away and that climbers should be more responsible and try at least to brush it off afterwards.

Yes it was a bit of a rant on my behalf but hey, so what?

In reply to paul mitchell: When chalk first came to UK shores I got so addicted to it , I used to chalk up before doing the hoovering in the flat, After a short detox course I became more sparing in its use.

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King:


I agree chalk is overused, but I think it stems from indoor climbing, where IMO it is need. I have incredibly sweaty hands, to the point where I'll chalk up, use one hold, move my hand and because most of the chalk has rubbed off and my hand is sweating again, i get far less grip on the next hold.


Outdoors though? On grit especially, the rock is rough and cold, and it removes the moisture from my hands better than any chalk could. (Mind you I've only climbed up to VS outdoors).


I hate seeing it on rock, it looks a right mess. What annoys me more though is the amount that you ends up on your gear and rope through overuse. After several months of indoor stuff 3-4 times a week, my harness and rope are absolutely covered in the stuff. There's nothing I can do about that though, apart from get less sweaty hands.

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King:

Given the rapid decay of the world - global warming, massive deforestation, huge contamination of oceans and rivers all over the world, the levelling of ground for roads or new sub divisions.

A bit of chalk on rock? I just can't get worked up about it. Especially given the environmental travesty of the road to the crag and the car that took you there.

In reply to needvert:


but you may as well say that about litter!

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King:

Because, although there are, as you say, lots of bad things about chalk, these are easily outweighed by how much more enjoyable and satisying it makes rock climbing.

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King:

There's something funny in the boulderer's mindest that makes them think that lots of chalking and brushing will help them send their awesome project, dude (applies as much to V2 as V9). In the Peak, lots of relatively unknown (to me too) bouldering has been opened up by the BMC guides and the latest Peak Bouldering guide and the amount of ludicrous over-chalking and over-brushing has unintentionally vandalised quite a few nice problems in just a year.

It's annoying. I've never quite understood why bouldering at one's absolute limit (i.e. choosing problems that take scores of attempts) is more popular than doing more problems which only take a couple of goes. Over-chalking and over-brushing is part of this approach people have to climbing on boulders and mini-routes. Personally, I find it really dull to fall off the same holds all day, but boulderers of all grades (as opposed to climbers who boulder) seem to love it.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

I think you are being kind: if you are at your absolute limit you need less chalk, as friction is reduced by any excess. Don't get me started on people brushing dry rock, even where no chalk is evident.

In reply to Robert Durran:

very funny!

In reply to Robert Durran:

Why, do you sniff it or mix it into your drinks?

I'm not a proper rock climber but enjoy the occasiona Severe or HS - and eeven there you see powder puffs of chalk on rough, cold rock. Why?

In reply to colinakmc:

It's ridiculous isn't it? It is essentially a bad habit picked up from climbing walls but it seems you are not allowed to question it!

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King:

Why is this funny? It certainly wasn't meant to be; it is a serious response to your OP.

In reply to Robert Durran: Correct me if I'm wrong Robert but you seem to be saying that the sensible use of chalk is acceptable for the reasons you mention, despite the fact that it's over used by a lot of people.

I get the impression that Mark thinks your defending the over use of chalk, again correct me if I'm wrong.

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King:

I've no idea where people have got the idea that it is a habit picked up at climbing walls. Chalk use was pretty much universal before use of climbing walls became pretty much universal.

People use chalk because it allows you to climb without the feeling that your sweaty hands are going to unexpectedly come flying off holds at any moment. This is true at any grade. The idea that chalk is somehow ok at higher grades but that lower grade climbers should just have to suffer is elitist nonsense.

In reply to remus:

I really don't know what you mean by the overuse of chalk - the amount people need varies according to how sweaty theit hands tend to get and on the conditions. In my experience the people who complain about "overuse" of chalk tend to be people who are lucky enough not to sweat much.

In reply to Robert Durran: The amount my hands sweat tend =s to depend on how excited/scared I am when climbing (seems to happen worse when watching climbing films than when im on the rock). Im comfortable at a higher level now and so dont tend to use chalk so much at lower grades, but i used to!

In reply to Robert Durran:

It means when you turn up to climb a problem and there is a ludicrous quantity of chalk all over it, so it looks ugly and makes it more difficult to climb.

No one cares about how much chalk someone's got on their hands, they care about huge quantities of it being smothered all over holds, and being left there. (That said, smothering huge quantities all over the holds then brushing it off isn't much better, as it's the combined smothering and brushing that causes the most damage).

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Wasn't it you that found that photo link to the dude chalking the arete problem on the far left of burb south?

In reply to Robert Durran: Oh come on, if you're talking about an average day in Britain, with an average temperature of 12 degrees, how sweaty are your hands going to get??????

People use chalk because everybody else does, and they think it makes them look like a cool rock jock! It's become such an ingrained habit, that people don't even know why they're using it - they're just on auto-pilot.

As I've said before, this side of E4/E5 (or trad tech grade of 5c), there aren't many routes that need chalk, and even then, you don't need it on every move.

In reply to Goucho: Perhaps for you but not everyone is the same.

My hands are very sweaty. It's a total ball ache in a lot of situations, chalk helps alleviate the problem when Im climbing.

In reply to Offwidth: No, it was me that moaned about the state of that problem, I didn't see the photo of the idiot in action...

Funny problem that one, graded 7a+ and V2 at the same time.

In reply to Goucho: When I forget my chalk, I really notice the difference and I can't climb the same stuff. I think my skin's quite greasy, because it often takes not just chalking up to absorb moisture, but climbing quite a few problems with chalky hands to get good grip. Maybe if I washed my hands with some strong soap immediately before climbing I might not notice the effect of chalk so much, but that ain't going to happen.

In reply to Goucho:

Quite possibly very sweaty


Nonsense. I feel insecure even on quite easy routes without chalk if my hands are at all sweaty (which is almost all the time)

Speak for yourself! I find it hard to imagine being able to climb E3 without chalk. I certainly wouldn't solo a Severe without chalk and leading an HVS would be decidedly unpleasant.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

I think you will find that the two things are unfortunately inextricably linked.

In reply to Jon Stewart: Giving your hands a good rub with chalk, then dusting the excess off, beforehand does work, and i've no big issues with that.

But it's this constantly bloody 'dipping' before and after every move, and putting enough on each time to decorate a wedding cake, that makes me piss my pants - especially (in most cases in fact) when it's usually on some mid-grade climb that my 87 year old mother could top rope with a bit of practise.

In reply to Robert Durran: I think you've just explained the real reason people use chalk - it's a phycological crutch - a habit, very similar to an other type of white powder!!!

So at least call it that, and stop with the 'it's because I have really sweaty hands!!' argument.

In reply to Goucho:

No. Please read what I wrote again. I explained that it is because of sweaty hands.

Why would I want to call it that when it isn't?

You are clearly one of the lucky people whose hands don't sweat much. Good for you.

In reply to Goucho: I used to use liquid chalk for short single pitch climbs as it stays on the hands better than ordinary chalk and doesnt seem to rub off quite so much on the holds. I find this makes a good compromise.

In reply to Robert Durran: It's a good job we have chalk then, because you obviously wouldn't be able to participate in the sport without it because of your very sweaty hands!!

In reply to Goucho:

Yes, it is a good job we have chalk. If we didn't, I would still participate in climbing, but I would certainly get less pleasure from rock climbing and would probably invest more of my time and effort into other aspects of the game than pushing myself on rock.

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King:

Maybe if chalk is such an essential aid to some people maybe we would be better off just chipping some bigger holds?

In reply to Robert Durran:


Yes it was back then but NOWADAYS most people pick up the habit from climbing walls first. I started climbing outdoors and it was only after a few years that other climbers 'told' me i should be using chalk.

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King:

I don't think that walls have any more to do with it than the habit people have of wearing rock shoes these days rather than vibrams or nails.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I think they do.

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King:

To those saying "brush it off after" (as if, by the way, no one ever does!) have you never considered the long term effect of chalking and brushing, especially on soft rocks like sandstone at Fontainebleau?

Second point, anything overhanging is not cleaned by the rain - the rock at Font has changed colour over a few decades.

Third, use of chalk on rounded corners ingrains the stuff to the extent of some kind of chemical reaction, perhaps sweat and skin pressure helping, and even though exposed to rain they no longer clean off.

Fourth, why not do as the ONF (who run the publicly owned and incredibly beautiful forest) and the COSIROC (French umbrella climbing organisation) ask on their notice boards and posters and simply don't use chalk?

Don't be such selfish slobs, climb a grade easier with clean hands, your willy won't get any shorter - honest!

In reply to Goucho:


Wow, what does she eat? I could do with some!

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

I think we all agree that chalk causes damage, but the COSIROC guidelines are a joke. If the mainstream of local climbers actually followed them, outsiders would accept them. It's the exact equivalent of the BMC publishing advice saying that cams should not be used on gritstone. Desirable for the preservation of the rock, yes, but practical advice that anyone will follow? Not a chance.


You're being sanctimonious. And self-righteous.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

We could all do this but it would not solve the problem that climbing is just so much less enjoyable at any grade with the insecurity of sliming around on sweaty holds and hands.

In reply to Goucho:

I've read some sh*te on this site but that comment probably tops them all.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


Oh no I'm not!

Drop a grade, objectively what would it matter?

You're all being sanctimonious and self righteous! I can't belive you're all getting your knickers in a twist about chalk when you're all happily jamming cams and nuts into the rock.

If you're so worried about damaging rock, don't climb on it! Chalk could be the very least of your problems!

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Objectively, it wouldn't matter if none of us ever go climbing again. As such, the objective value of climbing a certain grade isn't really relevant to the discussion.

In reply to Doghouse: Judging by your profile, I'd suggest you come back and comment when you've done some routes at this grade first!

In the meantime, keep slapping chalk on the easy stuff,!

In reply to Goucho:

The logic in this statement does not work.

You are basically stating that without climbing at E5 level, one is unable to describe the effects of chalk at any arbitrary lower level at which one climbs.

Which is clearly absurd. What is special about grade X that means you suddenly gain awareness of the effects of chalk.

Note, just for clarity, that I am not passing comment in any way about the effect of chalk at any level.

In reply to gav: Chalk was introduced as a way of gaining extra grip and friction on the very small holds, prevalent on increasingly difficult routes, not as a cure for sweaty hands.

It was not introduced in order to be plastered all over big jugs on a VS!!!

In reply to racerfozzy:

Seconded. I've one far more damage to rock with pro than chalk...

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Haven't had any experience brushing holds before, so I have to ask.
Does toothbrushing holds really damage the rock? What do you climb, plaque?

In reply to Goucho: And every route below E5 is basically hauling up a line of big jugs?

In reply to Ramblin dave: Of course not, hence why I said E4 and 5c.

All I can say is, if the old generation could climb these routes without chalk, sticky rubber, cams, mats etc, and we can't - goodness me, hasn't climbing come a long way in the last 50 years!!!!

In reply to Goucho:

Are you actually one of the Monty Python four yorkshiremen? "Chalk! Luxury! We used to DREAM of having chalk..."

In reply to Ramblin dave: CHALK!!!! In my day, we were lucky 't have a bloody rope, and then, we weren't allowed to ave any crabs or runners.

We weren't allowed to wear EB's until we'd soloed an XS in the rain, at night, wi a dead sheep fastened to our knackers.

And when we were allowed to use full gear, we had to climb whilst avin knives and lumps of coal thrown at us, and on't crux, we ad to recite 'on Ilkley moor ba tap' whilst being shot at wi a sawn off shotgun.

Bloody kids today, with their namby pamby sticky rubber, puffta chalk bags, jessie cams and girlie mats - don't know they're born!!!

In reply to Goucho:


Ah, the old 'if you can't climb at the grade, your comments are not valid' arguement. Wow! didn't see that one coming, you've blind sided me there. I've no response I'm afraid, that's such a good arguement winning point.

In reply to Doghouse: Your comments are as valid as anyone else's, including the sarcasm.

However, at the grade you climb, your use of chalk isn't.

This is why the crags - especially grit, are such an eyesore these days. So carry on slapping it on every 3 foot jug you find.

In reply to Goucho:

You are incredibly tedious.

In reply to Doghouse: Agreed. You're never too far from elitist bo11ocks on this site it would seem.

In reply to Kid Spatula: Well I might be tedious, but at least when I've climbed a route, it doesn't look like the Homepride Flower Man has been out on the rock.

In reply to handjammer: What is elitist in saying there is too much idiotic use of chalk (fact!!!!!) on the crags these days.

In reply to Goucho: That fact on it's own isn't elitist, not at all, in fact I am inclined to agree. What is, however, is your opinion of the grade at which it is deemed acceptable (by you) to use it.

Fair point about the older climbers not using it, and the grades, and terrain, they were able to climb without it. There must have been lots of climbers operating though, even then, at a much lower level than the headline-making ones, for whom the use of chalk would quite possibly have made their climbing sessions more enjoyable, perhaps even more rewarding.

It is up to the individual if they wish to use chalk. Yes, you do see it plastered around, and no, on some faces it doesn't wash off. People could do with being more responsible with the use of it, I'd agree. Look at my profile, I've never led any higher than a few E1's, so in your view I would have no need for a chalkbag. However, when I climb, it gives me something to dip into, a psychological comfort blanket if you will. If that small boost means that I can succeed on something I've looked forward to, then what's the harm? We all only climb because we enjoy it, don't we?

In reply to handjammer: Well at least you've admitted that you use chalk for psychological reasons, and nothing to do with grip and sweaty hands - which we all know is just an excuse.

As far as your comment about you, and everyone else being entitled to use it if you want on any route, well, yes, there are no laws to prevent you.

But just recognise the fact that your 'I'm alright Jack' attitude is why the crags are such an eyesore, and to say it does no harm, is just naive.

In reply to Goucho:

I agree (for the most part) with you, some of your later comments make it look like your fighting a losing battle however. People don't realise how little chalk is actually needed to stop your hands being all sweaty, especially with all the added extras you get in it now.

Caking your hands in the stuff is not going to make you sweat less, it is going to just transfer the vast majority onto the climb.

In reply to Goucho:

Why are the reasons for its introduction to a specific sport particularly relevant to the scope for its potential uses?

In reply to gav: Well I'm sure if you wanted too, you could use that argument to start using Himalayan siege tactics developed in the 70's, and apply them to an ascent of a grade II gully on Snowdon - it's a free country - but like using chalk on VS's, it just make you look like a cock!

In reply to Goucho:

So all E3's and 5b's are jug hauling? Get real.

In reply to mcdougal: An interesting question is which is more harmful, either aesthetically or otherwise: leaving chalk on holds, or the increased erosion caused by everyone abbing down every climb they do to clean it (same goes for reclimbing a boulder in order to reach holds that need cleaning)?
And apart from the many logistical problems with cleaning every hold you use, what about the damage done by brushing the holds every day? Yes, you will have lovely clean rock with no chalk marks; but in 5 years time all the classic routes will have had all the holds brushed clean off of them as well. In the long term I would rather put up with chalk marks if it means the routes last longer.

In reply to Goucho:

Just checked Doghouse's profile, expecting to find Diff. or something. E1, for goodness sake! Even if it had been Diff, I would still have disagreed with you. I sometimes climb E5, but you wouldn't catch me on an E1 without chalk.

In reply to Robert Durran: Now we both no I didn't say that don't we!

In reply to Goucho:

I use chalk onn VS's too. And I don't care what you think I look like.

In reply to Goucho:

What? That all E3's are jug hauling - well, in that context you certainly managed to imply it.

In reply to Robert Durran: Fine, you think use of huge quantities of chalk on very route is a good thing....good for you.

Lets just accept that we come from two different generations....I'm just glad I cam from mine - more respect for the routes, and the mystery.

Now it's all 'Climb by Numbers'!

In reply to Robert Durran: Of course you don't - hence why the crags look like outdoor climbing walls these days - same bloody mentality too!

In reply to Goucho:

You are only 6 years older than me (and the ratio of our ages is only 1.125), so hardly two different generations. Different opinions, not different generations.

By the way, I could respect your opinion if you were opposed to all chalk use, but stating arbitrary grades below which it is unacceptable is ridiculous and elitist (not that I am in any way opposed to elitism in its place); chalk will help and enhance the experience for someone operating near their limit on a Severe just as much as it helps someone operating near their limit on an E5.

In reply to Goucho:

You have just completely side-stepped the question, so I'll ask it again:

Why is it we would want to limit ourselves in the use of some item purely because of the original reason behind its introduction.

I'm not discussing anything beyond your assertion that because chalk was introduced for friction, it is not permissable to use it for sweat absorbtion.

In reply to Robert Durran: I am against the 'over use' of chalk (and that applies to E5's as well, because not every move on an E5 6a, is 6a) and unfortunately, a handful of chalk slapped on a big jug on a VS, is more of an eyesore than a small amount on a tiny finger pull on an E5.

But as I've said before, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and you and I are never going to agree on this one, so it's all academic.

The one thing you can't disagree with however, is that the universal 'over' usage of chalk, has turned the crags into an eyesore - so what price freedom of choice eh?

In reply to gav: All hail the onward march of mediocrity!

In reply to Goucho:

Exactly what my original post was getting at.

In reply to Goucho:

I don't disagree that it can be visually intrusive - I just think that it is a price worth paying; the increased aesthetic enjoyment of climbing with chalk, for me and presumably the vast majority of climbers who use it, just outweighs the "eyesore". Anyway,I actually sometimes find an improbable line of chalked holds quite inspiring.

In reply to Goucho:

I really don't know what youn mean by "over use". Please define the term in grams of magnesium carbonate per square cm or some such appropriate unit. Some people need more chalk than others - you can't criticise people with such ill-defined terms.


Ok, so chalk is alright on 6a moves, but not 5c moves then? That is in many ways even more ridiculous than restricting its use to E5 and above or whatever.

In reply to Robert Durran: "Anyway,I actually sometimes find an improbable line of chalked holds quite inspiring"

Well it certainly saves you having to work out where the holds are yourself doesn't it!!!!

In reply to Robert Durran:

When it becomes an eyesore?

In reply to Robert Durran:

Very true, but most use more than they really require.

In reply to Goucho:

yeah, climbers certainly cant claim their precious 'onsight' if the holds are all chalked up!

In reply to Robert Durran: Oh, so on all E4/E5's, the easiest move is nothing below 5c then is it??

And if you need me to point out what 'over use' is, then i'm afraid that is one wall i'm not prepared to bang my head against.

Lets just agree to disagree Robert, because to be honest, you're boring the arse off me!

In reply to Goucho:

I have to disagree. I can think of a number of times when pulling on moves as low as tech 4b where an unchalked hand felt a bit dubious and a chalked hand felt grippy. It tends to be on holds that are rounded and slightly greasy or glossy (i.e. where friction is more important than mechanical grip). If chalk does indeed increase the friction co-efficient, it wouldn't just do it for hard moves, the physics applies universally.

The amount of chalk needed for me to feel the difference is almost un-noticable on the rock and I'm in no way advocating mass splattering of chalk everywhere.

In reply to Goucho:

It is usually inspiring to see it on routes I've got no chance of getting up by any means.

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King:

Again, the trouble is that that is a very ill defined and subjective term. Any chalk at all m ight be an eyesore for some, while others might not be bothered by loads of it.

In reply to Goucho:

I'll take that to mean you accept that you can't! The term is subjective and ill defined, so of course you can't - my whole point.

Sorry to continue stirring, but your elitist bollocks about chalk only being necessary above a certain grade has genuinely pissed me off.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I'd say the term over-use of chalk isn't at all subjective.

It's obviously the use of more than the amount (in grams/sq metre) that will produce optimal friction.

Give me enough funding & I'll even measure it for you.

In reply to i.munro:

No, people with sweatier hands will need more than those with less sweaty hands. Have you never noticed that you need more chalk on hot sweaty days?

In reply to Robert Durran: it might well vary with temperature, humidity or from person to person. Doesn't make it subjective. Or do you reckon your weight is subjective?

In reply to i.munro:

Sorry, subjective was the wrong word, but that doesn't change my case.

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King: Visually it's horrible. Areas such as Stanage are popular with non climbers because it's a wonderful place. We climbers cover these places with chalk, which leaves a permanent mark (alkaline on acid environment. Look at Tody's Wall ).
Worst are the people who put chalk directly on holds. No excuse.

In reply to Robert Durran: "Sorry to continue stirring, but your elitist bollocks about chalk only being necessary above a certain grade has genuinely pissed me off"

Hopefully as much as you're selfish don't give a toss attitude to chalk pisses me off!!

In reply to fijibaby:

Yes exactly my point.

In reply to Goucho:

In which case I seem to be in an overwhelmingly massive majority of selfish climbers who use chalk. At least I'm not hypocritical as well as selfish like you, only using chalk above some arbitrary grade arrogantly imposed on the rest of the climbing population by yourself. Your posts on this thread really do display a monstrous idiocy.

In reply to Robert Durran:


Nail on head. Unfortunately

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King:


I'm not sure I can recall coming across any climbers who don't use chalk or coming across a non climber complaining about chalk, so maybe we're not all selfish after all.

In reply to Robert Durran: If you took the bloody time to actually read my posts, I'm not ant-chalk, I'm anti- the 'excessive' use of chalk!

You don't have to use huge amounts of it on every move on every route - irrespective of the grade!

Why can't people use it when it's appropriate, and sparingly and more considerately,instead of just being on brain washed auto-pilot.

Lets face facts, hundreds, if not thousands of routes, have been climbed for decades by thousands of climbers without chalk - so what has changed, to now make these routes require chalk????

Oh, don't tell me - global warming!!!!!!

In reply to Goucho:

I know. Hence the hypocricy. The trouble is that you are arrogantly trying to impose your own muddled views on what constitures "excessive chalk" (presumably any more than you personally find useful) on everybody else.


This is a non-argument. You could say the same about nuts, cams, sticky rubber, etc, etc, etc

In reply to Goucho:

What you've done there is sidestepped the question a second time.

At this point I can't be bothered any more to engage with you, it's clear you have no interest in constructive debate. As an observer who has contributed no opinion on the matter (though it appears from your post you have miraculously ascertained it) I can only suggest to you that your aggressive attitude and lack of reasoned, measured argument is negatively affecting your ability to have your message appreciated, which only damages your point of view and those who would support it. If you are going to make statements, especially those which appear on the surface exaggerated or ludicrous, it reflects better on you and thus your argument If you are willing to back them up and explain them rather than deflect or dissemble in response.

In reply to gav: As someone who has climbed for a while now I can definately see a difference to the way boulderers especially use chalk. They chalk the hell out of their hands, this overchalks the rock whick is then scrubbed with brushes, they overchalk again etc. Chalk everywhere and the rock has suffered for this... Its not a light touch on the fingertips to dry them out but a full-on James Herriot about to analy violate a cow chalked to the wrists. This is a more recent development, I climbed with guys doing some hard stuff in the 90's and none of them chalked to birth a cow.

In reply to gav:

Apart from a bar room psycho-analysis do you have an opinion on the subject?

I'm willing to bet you are another young Mr Chalky with too many hormones and a desperate desire to bolster a low self esteem by cheating with chalk! As I already suggested, but to bring science into the debate - do a climb at your limit with chalk, measure your dick carefully afterwards. Then, after a suitable cooling down period, do a climb at your limit without chalk, presumably this will be a little easier as you think chalk helps, and repeat the measurement with the same ruler.

I guarantee that there will be absolutely neither extension nor increase in diameter - your organ will still please the girls as much as before.

It's easy really, climb at your real grade, and leave the rock clean.

Surely we should take this notion of abandoning aids like chalk to force you to only climb at your grade to it's logical extent.

Shoes, also damage the rock, that rubber has to go somewhere.
Ropes abraid rock and cause rockfall.

Unroped soloing in barefeet Not for you? Then you're not climbing at your grade!

In reply to Bruce Hooker: Be careful Bruce, gav is a young Mr Chalky who has risen to the giddy heights of on sighting VS!!!!!!!!

What do old farts like us know about climbing - after all it's not as though we've done much over the years!!

I think we should leave it all to the young turks, and just accept we don't know what we're talking about, and bow down to their greater knowledge, talent and experience.

In reply to Goucho: Whats that saying about old dogs?

In reply to remus: They tend to have done more than puppies?

You have every right to disagree with me, but at least I can say that when i've done a route, it doesn't look like a 4 kilo bag of charlie has been poured down the crag - and you're telling me that's a bad thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In reply to muppetfilter:

It's a fashion/habit/addiction that's got completely out of hand and nobody is allowed to question it.

Aren't climbers supposed to self police?

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Ah, excellent, another psychic misanthrope.

Keep plugging away with the personal insults, it really works to further your argument.

Why would I bother to offer an opinion to someone so disinterested in considered debate.

Allow me to stoop to your level for simplicity: the more you two keep banging on with half-baked incoherent arguments and personal attacks, the less chance you have of convincing anyone to change their mind, which seems to be what you want.

I'll repeat it once more, as you appear to be slow at understanding: you have no idea on my views on chalk, your opinion on my grade means nothing to me, and your insults make you a bit of an arse.

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King:

Bearing in mind that until the 1960s/70s pretty well everything had been climbed without chalk it would suggest that it's unessessary on low grade climbs - VS and below including everything in Clasic Rock and a lot of Hard Rock.

In reply to muppetfilter:

Chalk use is definitely out of hand.

One of the more bizarre uses I've witnessed was someone (yes, this was at an indoor wall, you can stop reading now if you feel that invalidates my opinion and are about to post to say so) was someone who, upon struggling to find friction on a slab, stopped to chalk his shoes.

I also struggle to understand the pre-chalking of holds, particularly to the extent it seems to be done, and particularly on slopers where the texture is so important for grip and the chalk just fills the gaps.

That said, arguments such as "you can't use chalk until grade x" are absurd. Chalk use /is/ used for sweat absorption and that's not going to change. I also don't see any reason why it should; irrespective of why climbers started using it, the great thing about humans is their ability to find new uses for things. Climbing with sweaty hands is not fun, at any grade, and no-one is going back to that.

What is important, I feel, is distinguishing between a little chalk to dry hands that you blow the excess off, and a caking.

I don't think the style in which people used to climb is as relevant as some people seem to think it is in this context. We should seek to improve style where possible, but we use a number of aids (cams, lightweight gear) that were not available then and we're not going to regress that.

A large problem in this debate is a lack of strong science. There are the one or two studies that are frequently linked to on here, but there's definitely scope for more research I think.

In summary; chalk is (imo) used too much, and chalk under overhangs is not going to wash away and is unsightly. The way to solve these ills is very unlikely to be by getting on a high horse and shouting about how great the world used to be. It is likely to be via constructive discussion to establish a sensible consensus and then through education. As it is, those who use too much, and don't brush it off /will/ influence those new to the sport, and it's not likely to get better.

In reply to Goucho: Be careful Bruce, gav is a young Mr Chalky who has risen to the giddy heights of on sighting VS!!!!!!!!

Right, here we go again. Not only content are you to spout elitist rubbish, you also appear to be an elitist fool too. That is one of the most insulting, patronising comments I have ever read, even on here. Obviously you never bothered with the embarrassingly paltry grades of VS and the like, but one day took up climbing and went straight to E4.

What the hell gives you the right to pass off the climbing achievements of others in this way? Appalling behaviour.

In reply to handjammer:

After accusing Mr Goucho of monstrous idiocy on this thread last night, I did wonder whether I had gone a bit over the top. I am relieved to see that some of his comments since have only confirmed my opinion of his intellect and that others seem to agree with me.

In reply to gav:

Very good! Was it intentional?

In reply to handjammer: Someone else justifying use of chalk on mid grade routes, and getting all offended - look in the mirror first, and ask yourself - why in fact do I use chalk!

And no, I didn't start at E4, i started at the bottom, and over many years worked my way through the grades, respecting the traditions, the routes and their history, and following a simple philosophy of raising my performance to match the challenge, not dragging the routes down to my level.

And i come from a generation, where if you were seen using chalk on anything less than at least mid E numbers by your peers, you'd have been laughed off the crag!

So if my attitude is considered elitist rubbish, then I'm more than happy, because I'd much sooner have my climbing ethics, than a lot of people on here, who think they've got a god given right to do whatever they want on the crags.

It smacks of a petulant adolescent who's been told he's got to be back home by 11pm!

In reply to Robert Durran: The day I start to worry about your opinion of me Robert, will be the day I book myself into a nursing home!

By the way, I hope you're using plenty of chalk whilst your typing your posts, I'd hate to think of your sweaty fingers skidding off the keyboard!

In reply to handjammer:

I wouldn't worry about Goucho's insults. I am from the same generation as him and can confirm that he is spouting self-righteous shit. I think his cognitive powers will see him in a nursing home sooner rather than later.

In reply to Bulls Crack:

Just for you... excessive chalk use is wrong on so many levels.

In reply to Robert Durran: You might come from the same generation as me (although unless you started climbing at 6, I doubt it) but you did not climb with the same peer group (please read the posts Robert) therefore, you have no knowledge to back up your 'self-righteous shit' comment.

I just love these forums, you advocate a more considered and sparing use of chalk, and you're a self righteous elitist villain, you advocate using as much as you want, and f*ck the eyesore it makes the crags look, and you're a hero!

The me, me, me generation rules o.k.!

In reply to Goucho:
I normally use lots of chalk on myself to climb up things better, but do folks normally use it up their arms? I do, usually up to my forearms and maybe pat some on the rock if I'm toproping grit. It makes it much easier.

In reply to Goucho:

I can't actually see where anyone on this thread has 'advocated using as much [chalk] as you want' indeed the common thread seems to be agreement that it is generally over used - my view included.

Unfortunatley you seem to take anyone saying that chalk use below your magical E5 grade (and of course comments from anyone "not from your generation") as supporting liberal use of it which is obvioulsy not the case. You are not advocating 'a more considered and sparing use of chalk' - I would imagine most people would actually support that - but are just spouting about it''s use above or below certain grades (which for you seems to be an arbritary E5) which makes you come across as a bit of a c*ck and undermines what is probably, in context, a very valid arguement.

In reply to birdie num num: If you're using chalk in this kind of quantities, it might be best to replace your conventional chalk bag, with a stuff sack from a sleeping bag - you can get about 4lbs of chalk in one of those, and it will also be deep enough for you to get a good covering to the elbows, and should last you for at least two 30' grit routes (although not if it's a really hot day - say 14 degrees)

You should also carry a trowel for pre-placing a good layer of chalk on those tricky big jugs you get on a typical Stanage V Diff.

In reply to Doghouse: I actually said E4 and 5c, if you're going to paraphrase me. And in hindsight, maybe i should have said top end E3.

However, I stand by my opinion that the vast majority of chalk usage (especially the quantity applied per hold) is completely unnecessary., And certainly using it on mid grade routes is just wrong!

In reply to Goucho:

Apologies, E4/E5? those grades are soooooooo far above my humble E1 level that I tend to get them confused

In reply to birdie num num: I like to take my sleeping bag to the crag and fill it with chalk just jump on in there before each route, job done. If I find myself struggling just whack a peg in and have a rest. These nailed boots might have to go soon though as I am not getting up much above VS in them, not to mention the damage they do!

In reply to Bulls Crack:

Sadly not

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King:


Keep it going lads, it would be nice if we could get to 200 replies and 6,000 views.

I've been climbing for 8 weeks and have to say I am disappointed that such rifts exist in climbing. It remind me of the mountain bikers versus walkers arguments. It doesn't sound like an open sport welcome to all. That's how it feels reading this fellas. You should both embrace the differences, shake your chalked / naked hands and just enjoy the sport you all love.

Kiss and make up.

In reply to Goucho:

I think you are failing to see why you are coming across as such a dick. So just try to be rational for a moment:

You come out with all this self righteous stuff about respecting the history of routes by not choosing chalk. Now unless you are consistent with this in your views on the use of rock boots (rather than nails), nuts, cams, sticky rubber etc (I assume you are not), then this just comes across as hypocritical nonsense.
So that leaves us with the argument that chalk makes a mess (and I am certainly not denying that it does). Now chalk makes just as much mess of an E7 as of a Severe, so your argument that it should only be used above a certain grade once again comes across as hypocritical nonsense.

It is your hypocrisy and your failure to see it which is making you look so stupid. I am not in favour of using more chalk than is necessary to maximise grip at any grade. If you were against all chalk use, then I could respect your viewpoint and we could agree to differ, but your incoherent ranting deserves nothing but contempt.

In reply to ti_pin_man:

No, we are plastering the rock with too much chalk so it should be discussed and it is a very divided subject. Some things are important.

In reply to Robert Durran: I think you're missing his point - there's no need to use chalk below E4 because you don't need chalk on massive jug handles. Not that he's implying that every hold on a sub E4 route is a massive jug handle. Just that there's no need to use chalk below E4 because you don't need chalk on massive jug handles. And I think this ties in somehow to the fact that modern climbers are all just convenience-addicted children seeking a sanitized simulation of the real, daring, authentic, adventurous experience that his 'generation' of massive-balled heroes used to go through. Although I don't entirely understand how.

In reply to Ramblin dave:

Please read what you wrote above again. It makes no logical sense whatsoever.

In reply to gav:


No insults from me, just trying to reassure you that you had nothing to fear from not using chalk in terms of your bodily attractiveness.... and I remind you that it was you who started the bar room psyscho stuff.


True, and as this is a thread about this subject it seems a bit odd.

In reply to Robert Durran: I clean a local wall every year and probably fill two to three Henry Hoovers with loose chalk from the wall perlins alone. This is an indication of how people use too much, maybe its overfilling chalk bags.
Watching some folks its a mechanical movement everytime they swap hands on a climb the hands go into the bag regardless of need.

I have always been confused why folks blather their hands with chalk then blow it off again or slap it onto the rock...

In reply to Robert Durran:


From you that is a little rich

And bringing out the old nonsense about if we don't use chalk why not go bare foot doesn't help. Smooth soled climbing shoes have been around for over half a century, so why not stick to the subject?

If your hands sweat wipe them on your trousers... quite adequate on low to medium grades, for really high grades I won't comment beyond what I said already about dropping a grade but for those who really need numbers then maybe chalk may be the only answer, which is all Groucho is saying.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I was summarizing Goucho's argument...

Ok. Lets talk about solutions not just having a pop at each other.

Fact: people use chalk and you wont stop that whatever the grade. Nobody can police this idea.
Most agree that visually chalk spoils the countryside.

It strikes me that science must surely be able figure out a way to initially colour the chalk so it has less visual impact?
... and then degrade/disappear in a short time after, naturally without damaging the rock.

assisted , of course, by a code of conduct where climbers volunteer to try to loose less chalk and clean up with gentle brushing... Maybe that already exists.

Surely climbing chalk companies can come up with a better product.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

You also seem to be incapable of rational thought; I was pointing out the inconsistency in Groucho's logic about not using chalk to respect the history of the route. If he wants to debate the use of chalk, then fine, but he should try to use rational arguments. Unfortunately he doesn't seem to be capable of doing so.


And chalk and cams have been around for 30 years, so hardly an order of magnitude difference. Or are you saying that in another twenty years you and Groucho will have dropped your objection to chalk on the grounds of respect for history. Your argument really is a mess, isn't it?


Low to medium grades can also have slippery, unpositive holds(just as some hard routes can have positive holds). Suggesting that climbers pushing at these grades should not use chalk while those pushing high E grades do so is elitist nonsense.

If you and Groucho could see beyond your own non-arguments, it might be possible to have a sensible debate. Actually, I think the overwhelming majority of climbers probably agree that one should use no more chalk than is necessary to maximise grip whatever the route or grade; it is certainly what I think.

In reply to Robert Durran: Chalk has been around for 30 odd years - but not on bloody VS's and below, that is relatively recent, so please provide a rationale argument as to why this is the case.

And if you agree that too much chalk is regularly used, why not lead by example Robert - stop using chalk on mid grade routes.

After all, I would have thought that for someone who onsights E5, using chalk on a VS is a bit pathetic actually - if your hands are that sweaty, I'd see a doctor.

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King:

If this problem is our biggest worry, I feel we're doing quite well in the climbing world today.

In reply to Robert Durran:Robert, take a look at this - more of the same.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=484917

Thank you for your words of support earlier. In fact, I'm greatly amused by what's going on. I mean, surely everyone agrees that chalk can make, and leave a mess, and that it is certainly over-used. Good point about the use of chalk on climbs at both ends of the spectrum too. To the pedants - I know that E7 isn't the top grade.)

I am all in favour of respecting the history of routes, although surely it is up to each ascensionist to choose their own style? If someone opts to climb Frankland's Green Crack without chalk, hemp rope around the waist and big boots then that's up to them, and if I choose to do it using chalk, sticky rubber and cams then I fully accept that I've had an easier run at it than they have, but we'll have both covered the same ground, and may have shared the same sense of enjoyment too.

I'd accept Goucho's position far more readily if I were to find out that he lived in a house with few mod cons, had a car without air con or a bluetooth connection, no ipods or ipads - you get the idea. After all, they weren't around in his youth so surely using that sort of thing now isn't the done thing?

I await the inevitable...

In reply to Robert Durran:

I give up on you, you speak of rational debate but are yourself so far from it that it's mind boggling. Lots of people don't use chalk, and in the rain I bet even you don't, so you should really be able to understand the concept of not using the stuff on easy to moderate climbs at least. Above that I doubt that you are capablme of twigging so there is no point in trying.

In reply to handjammer: "I'd accept Goucho's position far more readily if I were to find out that he lived in a house with few mod cons, had a car without air con or a bluetooth connection, no ipods or ipads - you get the idea. After all, they weren't around in his youth so surely using that sort of thing now isn't the done thing? "

Very good Handjammer - made me smile

Unfortunately, you have me bang to rights, as I have recently swapped my cave for a rather nice bijou residence in the South of France, and my two tin cans connected by string for an iPhone. I've traded my old Austin Cambridge in for a spangly rear engined German machine (although i still can't get the air con to work properly despite shouting at it on a regular basis)

However, I still have cold baths, eat coal for breakfast, and solo on the local crags in nine sweaters wearing a pair of old flip flops, with a bag of lard tied to my waist just in case the friction is too good!

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

The fact that you can come out with will only reinforce the opinion of any intelligent person reading this thread that you are a moron.


Yet another completely irrational connection between two unconnected things. No, I don't use chalk in the rain for the simple reason that it doesn't work in the rain. Do you actually have a brain?

In reply to handjammer:

Most entertaining. He really does have a nice line in patronising elitist bollocks.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
I can't imagine you managed to write that with a (metaphorical) straight face, as your post was nothing but a personal attack in its entirety.


I still don't really see why it's necessary to offer an opinion on a matter to point out the logical inconsistencies or absurdity of another argument. Perhaps you could enlighten me.

In reply to Goucho:

How recent is recent? My direct experience goes back well over 20 years now and those I climbed with much further. Most grit VS climbers used chalk (when it helped) as far as I'm aware certainly back over 25 years. Most of those that didnt usually led well above VS. In the mountains the use I saw was less but that was probably as it doesn't work in the wet and the hand-holds were normally less rounded.

I really feel strongly that chalk is misused and certainly often overused and it would help climbing to tackle this with education. Those denying its utility or stating arbritrary lower grade limits I feel damage the case and give the culprits a chance to put the arguments down to illogical ranting. Chalk improves friction by drying the hands, any excess should be removed before making the move, where one can. If the holds feel so greasy that chalk is needed every move maybe the route should be left to another day.

In reply to Offwidth: That's all rather reasonable. Couldn't you come out with something more argumentative, or this thread is going nowhere...

In reply to Offwidth: Sensible comments in your second paragraph.

I don't think there will ever be a consensus on this, as the use of chalk is so ingrained in the climbing psyche, and climbers are so 'institutionalised' in the use of it, that any comments suggesting it should be reduced, will always be met with indignation.

There is a very strong 'herd' mentality regarding chalk, and whilst everyone has the freedom of choice, with that freedom should come responsibility.

Unfortunately, judging by the comments on this forum, people want the freedom, without the responsibility.

It is therefore up to each individual, to decide whether they are in fact an individual, or just a sheep.

No doubt there will be some individuals, who will consider this another illogical rant.

In reply to Goucho: baaaaah humbug

In reply to gav:


You can't go around talking sense on these threads it'll get you into trouble

If you're actually interested I found these papers to have some relevance

http://www.springerlink.com/content/pqhe8j24hy9d463u/

http://jn.physiology.org/content/103/1/402.full

Be warned though! Unlike Dumbo I couldn't manage without a magic feather & I've simply had to find a different psychological crutch.

In reply to i.munro:Good that. I have been wondering if the debate could be defined by the amount of moisture on peoples hands when climbing. Those with dry skin using very little (thus not understanding the need) and those with moist or greasy skin using more (thus can't understand how they could use less).
Having said that, marking gear placements with numbers, foot holds with ticks or anything but a bit of exess from the hands is, I think, taking the joy out of doing any route, and making a mess that should be cleaned off when you have done. All well and good that rain washes it off in time, but if someone wants to onsight that route before it does rain, you have spoiled it for them.
As for the now normal use of chalk to decrease persperation, it is not hurting the rock so if you haven't got sweaty hands be thankfull.The past generations have done all sorts of nasties to the rock in one way or another, let's just thank ourselves for ending the use of pegs and nailed boots. Anyone any ideas on what we can protect climbs with that won't break flakes off or wear big grooves in the rock?
I did feel the need to push this tread through to the 200 posts mark

In reply to Phill Mitch:

Bolts?
Pads?
Topropes?










Sorry all...

In reply to i.munro:

Thanks for those; I'd not seen them before and they look interesting.

I've not had a chance to read them in full yet, but I had a quick glance and here are a few thoughts (which I realise I shouldn't probably make until reading them in full).

It seems that the paper suggests that the hands self-modulate sweat to reach an optimum level of friction allowing the person to grip with less force. That optimum level of moisture is wetter than completely dry, which seems to make sense (consider chafing). It goes on to say that past that optimum point, increased moisture decreases friction and thus requires increased force.

So, attempting to apply this theory to climbing, the hands are going to feel slightly moist perhaps (I've not read any part which discusses the human perception of these moisture levels) at the optimal level, so chalking an already dry hand might decrease friction.

There is a slight question over both papers applicability at this point though. In both tests, the users were seated (1 picture shows a chap in jeans and a jumper sittingly happily), and moving a relatively modest (250g) weight. Compare this to a physically active body lifting up to 80kg +, and it's unclear how the body's physiology would cope. Would the body prioritise heat-reduction (through sweat) over grip-optimisation, tipping the moisture content past that optimum level?

Re-examining the over-chalking of a dry hand, if we consider a multiple-move sequence, would this hand provide a longer time in the optimal moisture zone than one which started the sequence at that level?

I'll try and read the papers in full later to see if there's any further discussion around this area, or specifics of the testing which would provide insight.

Just one little point to make here, pushing my personal limit is roughly VS, so a lot of you anti-beginners would say I'm not allowed to use chalk.

How does someone climbing E11 using as much chalk as they like differ from me using it? We're both climbing a chunk of rock, both putting in maximum effort and both just trying to reach our goals. Should I care that your number is higher than mine? Quite frankly, you can swivel. I climb for me, to better myself, and chalk helps, not to appease you and your attitude from the 60s. Climbing at my limit is just as much of a challenge as you climbing at yours.

Anyway, that's my take on the grades argument. However, I do think chalk is used too much. In winter on dry rock for example, when your hands are dry, I find it doesn't actually help (or I can't tell if it can, in that scenario I'll accept any advice you can offer). This morning though, I was using bucket loads because I was climbing a damp concrete thing the council put up in the park, and some of the jugs had puddles in them. I still enjoyed myself and plastered the thing in chalk in the process. It'll rain again tonight, fill the jugs again, and wash it all off.

What I'm interested to know though, is whether it actually damages the rock? If it does, I'll avoid using it where possible. If not I'll just carry on, because to me it's comforting when doing a climb to spot chalk marks. It shows me where someone has gone before, and it feels nice to follow where others have already gone.

In reply to Muel:
. . . it's comforting when doing a climb to spot chalk marks. It shows me where someone has gone before, and it feels nice to follow where others have already gone. . .

. . . sometimes, however, it quickly becomes apparent that they've gone to a wrong and desperate place

In reply to HB1:

Very true. Very true indeed. Especially when you realise that actually, the V.Diff you're aiming for is over there, and the climber you're trying to follow is shooting off on the E7 variation to the left....

In reply to Muel:


As long as you are happy not claiming the onsight.

In reply to Goucho:

Nobody, including myself (despite your ranting to the contrary) has, on this thread, supported using more chalk than is necessary to optimise friction. If you had stuck to the OP's thread title rather than diverting attention from it with your elitist nonsense about arbitrary grades below which it should not be used at all (which myself and others have quite rightly challenged) and all your ensuing illogical nonsense, you might not have mistaken mine and others indignation at your arrogance for your imagined general indignation at the OP.


No. I'm not sure where you have got that idea.

There is undoubtedly some overuse of chalk that goes on and I have no doubt, probably when gripped, sometimes been guilty. If this thread encourages people to think about their chalk use, it will have servrd a useful purpose.

In reply to Robert Durran: Whilst you are completely entitled to your disagreement with my comments Robert, you are the last person on earth, to call anybody else arrogant!!!!

Now move on and bore somebody else on another thread.

In reply to Robert Durran:


Thats why i started it. I haven't the answers.

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King: zzzzzzzzzz

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King:

Purely as a result of this thread I am going to swap my chalk ball for powder, and I will now chalk up for every move.

In reply to metal arms:


Bolts? EH !

In reply to Goucho:

I am sure somebody else will at some point.
Oh, and I've taken the liberty of removing some of your annoying multiple question marks as well as the misplaced comma.

In reply to Kid Spatula:

and you are?

In reply to climber_medic:

wake up, there's a world outside

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King: You started the thread mate. Why dont you go out instead of attention whoring on UKC.

In reply to HB1:

Until you realize that you're off route and you're following where a pigeon has recently 'gone'.

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King:

You can get lots of different colours of chalk for blackboards so someone should make 'rock camouflage' dirty brown coloured chalk for climbers. That would solve the white splodge problem which seems to be the main issue.

I should file a patent on that one

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King:

I'd just like to take this opportunity to point out dry tooling uses no chalk, thus alleviates all the kinds of damage people are reporting in *this* thread.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh: A friend of mine, when he started climbing, used to use actual chalk board chalk, filed down to create dust. This was all different colours. I cant say how good it works at the job its intended for but in theory I think you have a great idea there.

In reply to climber_medic:

I know i started the thread, you are stating the obvious, because it is a subject that should be discussed.

What is attention whoring? do you not know who i am?

In reply to needvert:

Touche! )

As a definate newbie and self confessed 'shit climber' I'm a little confused;

Overuse, or not, of chalk is almost certainly going to be a subjective topic, as is how 'ugly' it makes a bird shit covered crag. I was under the impression that a 'climbing aid' defeated the object of what we're all here to do (newbs and elitists included).

As I read it, chalk is seen as an aid, it improves grip either by improved friction or soaking up sweat to the same end thereby enabling a climber to 'send' where he normaly wouldn't have. So would a little tug on a cam or some other protection be considered acceptable? I think not.

I've been using chalk during my relatively recent introduction to 'proper' climbing, I have to confess I'm not sure why, just because I've seen everyone else using it I guess. I probably wont use it again.

Good thread..(mostly!)

In reply to gav:



I think you overestimate the role of heat-reduction here.
In Bouldering particularly the burst of activity tends to be far too short to affect body temperature at the time.

Fear could cause hands to sweat but chalk is, if anything, applied much more in bouldering low -down. I think you suggest a valid point that skin friction might possibly change with high pressures but consider the difference in pressure between cutting loose one-handed on a small edge & using the whole palm on a sloper to aid a tricky rockover.

In reply to i.munro:

If it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, its normally a duck even if some idiot paper says its a robin. We've doen this to death: proper sparing use of chalk benefits virtually all the top climbers out there according to those climbers and if you choose to believe poorly formulated reasearch papers over them, more fool you.

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King: Of course I know who you are Mark. You have had more usename changes Thank P-Diddy and are about as subtle as an air-raid.

Bored from Worcestershire

Attention Whore

"Label given to any person who craves attention to such an extent that they will do anything to receive it. The type of attention (negative or positive) does not matter."

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King:

Agreed, it does appear that some people do it out of habit, even on their first route of the day. At this time of year, I can often go all day without.

In reply to climber_medic:

correct

Incorrect

In reply to HappyTrundler: Steve Findlay was still still 'clean hand' a few years ago but I don't know him so don't know about now. I saw him talking about climbing without chalk on the Pat Littlejohn Pembroke sea cliffs video. That inspired me to stop using chalk inside and out c2004 because I realised that in most situations I just did't need it (up to the occasional F7a) and it is a mental crutch and pause for thought aid. Mind you I hardly ever get outside any more. I suspect if was outside in wet conditions and had chalk with me I might use it but otherwise I'll keep off it.
Nick

This is from a thread from SuperTopo a while back on the same question:

"The merits...on some rock types the benefits are psychological/imaginary. On most basalt, andesite, dacite, sandstone, and granite it doesn't make a difference. The rough limestone? No difference. The smooth limestone. Big difference! Most alpine granite? No difference. A greasy flare fest in the Valley? Definitely big difference. Chalk works (depending on the rock). My experience has been it doesn't really come into actually making a difference until you get into the 5.10-5.11 range depending on the rock type and not the climber's ability.

Besides, chalk bags are kinda cool (especially those old school Strawberry Mountain chalk bags that you could chalk up to your elbows!), the whole chalking thing makes you feel like you're a better climber than you actually are, and, hey, anything that might even remotely make you think is gonna help when you're in the whimper zone on a lead might keep your brain from frying.

The downsides? The stuff is messy and a pain in the ass to deal with, it's one more thing in the way, and it is littering; it's trash! No matter how anyone tries to frame it, chalk is litter (just like leaving tape wads lying around). And, at some level, chalk is (an) aid (but, then so are shoes and I could never get good at the barefoot thing). It diminishes the experience of discovery for the next climber and the aestheics of the environment.

In hunting, the tools you use will show how skilled a hunter you are. Use a long range rifle with a high powered scope may bag you a buck, but if you're good you can do it with a muzzle loader. If you're really good, you can do it with a compound bow. if youre better, you can do it with a longbow, and if you're really a badass you can jump out of a tree with a Bowie knife and get it done.

Having less technology between us and the experience forces us to be more skilled, more trained, and more conscious. So much of what we do in climbing has become just another consumer culture sport where all that matters is who has the bigger.....numbers. It doesn't matter how hard you climb. It matters what you experience and who you become from doing it, IMHO. If you do a given climb racked to the nines with all the modern gizmos and chalked to the elbows, that's cool. If you do the same climb in a two inch swami and a rack of old hexes sans chalk, that's really cool.

A great standard, again IMHO, is from the 1972 Chouinard catalog:

"Thus, it is the style of the climb, not attainment of the summit, which is the measure of personal success. Traditionally stated, each of us must consider whether the end is more important than the means. Given the vital importance of style we suggest that the keynote is simplicity. The fewer gadgets between the climber and the climb, the greater is the chance to attain the desired communication with oneself—and nature."

There used to be a really strong no chalk stand in Arizona in the 70s and the standards were breaking into 5.12. There was some incredibly bold climbing being done, too, and I have incredible respect for friends and partners from that period."

Chouinard stated being interviewed one time said the ultimate standard for climbing ethics is that no one could tell you'd been there. Sounds good to me.

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King:

This is not a reply to FKAPK specifically, more a general contribution to the thread. I do apologise as I haven't read the whole thread, but I thought this abstract from a research paper published in the Journal of Sports Science might be of interest...

Journal of Sports Sciences: 'Use of ‘chalk’ in rock climbing: sine qua non or myth?'

Magnesium carbonate, or 'chalk’, is used by rock climbers to dry their hands to increase the coefficient of friction, thereby improving the grip of the holds. To date, no scientific research supports this practice; indeed, some evidence suggests that magnesium carbonate could decrease the coefficient of friction. Fifteen participants were asked to apply a force with the tip of their fingers to hold a flattened rock (normal force), while a tangential force pulled the rock away. The coefficient of friction - that is, the ratio between the tangential force (pulling the rock) and the normal force (applied by the participants) - was calculated. Coating (chalk vs no chalk), dampness (water vs no water) and rock (sandstone, granite and slate) were manipulated. The results showed that chalk decreased the coefficient of friction. Sandstone was found to be less slippery than granite and slate. Finally, water had no significant effect on the coefficient of friction. The counter-intuitive effect of chalk appears to be caused by two independent factors. First, magnesium carbonate dries the skin, decreasing its compliance and hence reducing the coefficient of friction. Secondly, magnesium carbonate creates a slippery granular layer. We conclude that, to improve the coefficient of friction in rock climbing, an effort should be made to remove all particles of chalk; alternative methods for drying the fingers are preferable.

In reply to i.munro:

I think this sort of splits into two segments:

a) That the body can't react quickly enough during the act of climbing (in bouldering particularly) to cause a significange amount of sweat

There may well be some truth in this, although it's postulation either way. Interestingly, the study shows that the body is able to excrete sweat as a reaction very rapidly; modulating it for grip. Therefore I'm not sure it logically follows the body wouldn't start heat-reduction sweat similarly quickly. This also, obviously, becomes less applicable as we move to trad, sport, or even longer bouldering problems...

You mention later the "fear" aspect, which I'd not really considered, but looking back, there are certainly times on slabby boulder problems where I've been standing around for quite a while trying to commit to a move (yes, I sometimes struggle to commit to bouldering moves - a pad looks very small from a couple of meters up ). The longer you stand around, particularly in a position not of rest, your heart rate is going to be up and you're going to be getting hot. Which sort of leads on to...

b) Your "body temperature at the time" comment seems to imply that the body is starting from a point of normal temperature, heart-rate and sweat.

I don't think this reflects the average climbing session. The session is likely to start with at least some form of CV exercise, even if just the walk in to the crag. There is plenty of discussion on these forums on the need for a warm-up to reduce injury, and it would seem pointless to have "warmed up" and then allowed the body to return to cold again.

Anecdotally, I am certainly heavily panting at the top of, say, an 8-move boulder problem at my limit, so the body has obviously reacted to the lack of oxygen and is trying to supply the limbs already, the only part we don't know is the delay before the sweat kicks in, but speculate either way we can't know for certain without studying it.

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King: Hello guys, I am really very new to the climbing world. I am assuming that chalk just helps in grip? yeah?

Sorry for sounding like a complete idiot, but as I say, I am very new!

In reply to gav:


The Birmingham team(quoted above) have studied this. They used water to simulate the effects of sweating. Their results were counter-intuitive, However, the papers I've linked show that their results were entirely consistent with other work on the frictional properties of skin.

In reply to mimi22:

That paper was completely worthless it completely misunderstood why climbers used chalk. Chalk increase friction by drying your hands of sweat...gives us a better way of doing this and we will use it but I haven't seen any yet. The idea that wet rock is no more slippery than dry is hilarious (I guess they had no lichen).

In reply to i.munro:

There results were not counter intuitive they are just completely in the wrong context. Do the test again with some proper climbers as consultants and we might be able to take them seriously. Ive tried for a few years now to get my uni sports scintists interested but they have other fish to fry.

In reply to i.munro:

Unfortunately I no longer have academic access to papers, so can't read or comment on that study (assuming you're referring to the paper referenced by mimi22?), but I can't see anything from the abstract or your comments which refers to the delay before sweat (for heat reduction) starts (th
e part of my post you quoted). In fact, if they were using water to simulate sweat, then it seems they actively did not study that?

In reply to gav:

The paper has been lampooned by proper climbers for years.

You go for a jog, do the test, apply chalk properly (removing exess) do it again on the same sweated hold etc and get some proper results. At least that would be a good start.

We have these amazing plastic holds at NCC where grip is OK until your sweat and move a little then its like wrestling a fish.

In reply to Formerly Known as Pylon King: Habit; we were doing a "no hands see how high you can get" up a slab, indoors at Oxford (before they messed it up). Every time my mate tried it he chalked up WTF!!

I hate the stuff, for me it stops part of the enjoyment of climbing - namely the finding of a way up a problem, the searching, testing, groping and selection of the next hold. It reduces outdoor wilderness to an indoors follow the colours experience; where each colour's white but it's still all out there in front of you; join the dots.