UKC

I daren't read it, but I assume the epic length of the US grade thread implies that I'm not the only one who doesn't know if 5.9 will be HVS or E3. Maybe we could make life easier by producing a list of UK grades for classic American climbs.

To get the ball rolling, here are guesses at the grades of some of my favourite American climbs...

Cathedral Peak, Tuolomne - HS 4b
Royal Arches, Yosemite - VS 4b
Snake Dyke, Yosemite - VS 5a
After 7, Yosemite - VS 5a
Exum Direct, Grand Teton - VS 4c
Petit Grepon, Rocky Mountain Park - HVS 5a
The Snaz, Tetons - HVS 5b
Pear Buttress, Lumpy Ridge - E1 5a
Walt Bailey Memorial, Devils Tower - E1 5b
Yellow Spur, Eldorado - E1 5b
Friday 13th (p1), Vedauwoo - E2 5c

Since I'm going there in next summer, it'd be especially nice to see some opinions on the classic Yosemite/Tuolomne/High Sierra 5.9/10s

In reply to Mike Lewis:

Not sure this is going to work, the 1st time I did Snake Dyke I thought it HVS 5a, the next time (and climbing much better) I though E2 5b!


Chris

Great, now I'm not even going to be able to trust UK grades when I next use one of your guides

I can believe HVS 5a.

In reply to Mike Lewis:

South Crack (Stately Pleasure Dome) 5.8 R: E1 5b
Regular Route (Fairview Dome) 5.9 : E1 5b
Crest Jewel (North Dome) 5.10 : E1 5b

(For calibration purposes - and to cheer you up - I agree that VS 5a is a reasonable grade for Snake Dyke).

In reply to Mike Lewis:

Serenity Crack - E3 5c
Reed's Pinnacle Direct - E2 5b
Freewheelin - E3 5c

In reply to Mike Lewis:
Bachar-Yerian E4 6a, E3 5c, E2 5b, E2, VS

In reply to dr evil:

I thought it was a much bigger tick than that.

In reply to Mike Lewis:

I seem to have extended it to French grades and widened the definition of 'America':

Walt Bailey Memorial - E1 5b
Panty Mime - F6b+
Serenity Crack / Sons of Yesterday - E3 5c
Grand Wall (Squamish) - E4 6a
Exasperater - E1 5b
Lotus Flower Tower E3 5c (not including inevitable aid through the wet roof)
Durrance Route - HVS 5a
El Matador - E4 6a
Bastille Crack - HVS 5a
Outer Space - E2 5c
Yellow Spur - E1 5b
Rosy Crucifixion - E1 5a

In reply to Mike Lewis:

Yosemite comparison (IMO) is almost impossible due to a difference in style.

Snake Dyke would be HS on the etive slabs - much easier than Spartan Slab

In reply to jonny2vests: Indeed, fairly sure Ive seen a vid where some UK wad says the Bachar-Yerian would be around E6 6a in the UK.

In reply to Mike Lewis: Royal Arches VS 4b? No way (otherwise I'm shitter than I thought) I agree wit h the VS bit bit thought there was a couple of moves of 4c maybe even 5a.

In reply to gcandlin:

Royal Arches
I thought the 5.10 hand crack was out of character with the rest of the route. HS 4b without it VS 5a with it.

It was a long time ago mind you.

In reply to jonny2vests:

Serenity E3 6a
Exasperator E2 5c
Grand Wall E3 5c (with aid on the gym-rope pitch)
Durrance VS 4c
El Matador E3 5c
Bastille Crack VS 4b
Yellow Spur HVS 5a

Told you it was a tricky exercise!


Chris

In reply to Mike Lewis:
>>

What have you got planned? I'm also going to be out there next summer...

In reply to Mike Lewis:

I did it last year and would give it HVS 5a.

E

In reply to Mike Lewis:

Good idea...added a few tasters and will try and add loads more if I have time.

Royal Arches add A0 (E2 6a) otherwise I agree the first 4.

Regular Route Fairview HVS 5b (crux pitch 1 but with a well protected pitch 3 thats close to HVS 4b!)
South Crack E0 4c (crux top slab..crack bit is VS)
Forgotton Chimney E1 5b A0 (scary but amazing...climb this before it falls down)
Mathes Crest VS 4c for a few metres on the last summit and reversing from the last summit (reputedly scary 5.8 if you carry on), otherwise S 4a.

In reply to seaofdreams:

"Yosemite comparison (IMO) is almost impossible due to a difference in style." Bull

"Snake Dyke would be HS on the etive slabs - much easier than Spartan Slab" Double bull.

In reply to dr evil:

Ooh Dr Evil. Well I've not done this and presumably you have, but I remember Malc Taylor telling Neil Foster this was just a bog standard E5. Both Neil and I realised this was an unintentional sandbag when looking at some of the other routes that Malc had done on that trip. But E4... come on, that can't be right. If it was, then people would be forming an orderly line all the way down to the road, to climb it - with me somewhere in the middle waiting for it to get plastered in chalk so I could see the holds!

In reply to Mike Lewis:

Astroman E5 6b
The Rostrum E4 6a (but soft)
DNB E3 5c
Freerider E6 6b
Seperate Reality E3 6b
Blues Riff E4 6a
Steck Salathe HVS (what else could you give that sort of climbing)

The Naked Edge E3 6a (Eldo, Colorado)
Fine Jade E3 5c (Rectory, Utah)

In reply to Toby Dunn:

I have only done Blues Riff and Steck Salathe on that list and would concur. Having followed Separate Reality to clean it (with some aid) I strongly suspect it isn't within a million miles of E3!!!!


Chris

In reply to Mike Lewis:

To get up 'The Nose' or 'Salathe Wall', what do you need to be comfortable on UK grade wise? Not talking about free ascents, nor aiding them, just getting up, mainly free with odd aid section if necessary, and how long does it take? I would be an E2 / E3 plodder over here, if that helps with any comments...

In reply to dr evil:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Evillaugh.ogg

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Certainly is tricky if you think Yellow Spur is 5a!

In reply to Mike Lewis: Snake Dyke - Hard Severe

In reply to Toby Dunn:


Harsh Toby, shortness may have helped in Bomb Bay. E4 6a

Oz - E3 5c
Lucky Streaks - E2 5c
Blues Riff (in a oner) - E4 6a
Crack a go go E5 6a
Supercrack(desert) E3 5c
Club Country Crack(Boulder Canyon) E4 6a
Thin Ice (Needles) E2 6a
El Matador E3 5c
Moratorium E3 6a
Atlantis E4 6a

In reply to Rich Kirby:

Is Blues Riff as good as it looks?

In reply to Mike Lewis:

Some willy waving going on already.

Bachar Yerian E4 - ha ha!!

Separate Reality E3 - ha ha!!

Snake Dyke Hard severe - ha ha!!



E

In reply to Mike Lewis: I'm also heading to the valley in september so I had been trying to follow the other thread but soon got lost....

I've been told by friends to expect 5.7's to feel like E1's and I was hoping to get on Snake dike and golfers route to name but 2 as I was also hoping my good lady could lead some of the pitches. Although looking at some of these, maybe I'll have to rethink....

In reply to Mike Lewis: Anybody care to suggest what they think the North Chimney of Castleton tower would equate to? Its 5.8 but it felt like E1 5b I think??

In reply to Enty: Just because you disagree with my opinion, there's no need to be rude

In reply to Andy2:

Oh - sorry. Is that rude?

E

In reply to seankenny:

Yep, an amazing pitch.

In reply to SGD:

Golfers is a two pitch VS 4c gap filler; well protected with a slim rack supplementing the bolts; the fisrst pitch of the route just left is a good well proteced trad HS 4c.

Snake Dike is either hard and protected VS or super-runout VS 4a/3c.

Royal Arches is real easy for VS and only run-out on the easy pitches at the top.

Cathedral SE Buttess has great gear and two really good VS variations that help beat the queues and Eichhorn's pinnacle behind is also about HS 4a (despite the lower US grade).

In reply to Offwidth:

Did you think the moves padding across the slab on P3 were only 4a?

E

In reply to Enty:

Solid VS 5a and real easy to miss the bolt in slanting morning light. I thought I'd got myself offline on E1 terrain and was relieved to clip at my ankle when it glinted at me

In reply to Offwidth: Great stuff, they are all routes I'd marked in the guide as possibles.

In reply to Offwidth:

Ah, missread your post.

E

In reply to HappyTrundler:

Though not really in keeping with the thread, i would also be interested in what HappyTrundler is asking. Could a steady E2/3 climber get up The Nose or Salathe Wall?

Definitely on the to-do list. Would prefer to climb more free than aid.

In reply to Rich Kirby:

yes it is isn't it.

Enty, Seperate Reality at E3 was not willy waving: go and do Harvest at E3, and SR, and tell me which you think is the easier tick
It's sort of grit sandbag E3, rather than Welsh e3, if you catch ma drift. In the same way as the Steck-Salathe is 'HVS' - it is that sort of thing which is going to feel hard at any grade, i suspect.

In reply to CharlieMack:

Yes



For The Nose. If you just lead E2, brush up on your aiding then pitches like the Great Roof, P27, Changing corners and the bolt ladders will go much quicker and smoothly.
Many of the classic free pitches, like most of The Legs, Texas Flake, The Boot (after the bolts) and Pancake Flake feel hard if E2's your limit.

E

In reply to Toby Dunn:

Hey up Toby, I know I don't do overhangs very well but a 6m horizontal crack with some not so perfect jams, at hard 5:11d (downgraded from 21a) reckoned to be F7a+ IS NOT E3!!!!

E

In reply to Toby Dunn: My god, you're a hell of a better man than me Mr Dunn if you reckon SR is E3!!!!!!!

I'd certainly give it 2 grades above Harvest, which is in itself a classic sandbag in the first place.

But then again, I'm fine at getting across roofs, I'm just crap at getting round the lip (legs are just toooo long man!)

In reply to Goucho: I suppose I need to add, that I've only seconded SR, and my performance getting round the lip, was the best impression of a drunk trying to get back on a bar stool you've ever seen, so i'm probably not the best person to comment

In reply to Goucho:

And before I go any further I should say I haven't done SR - but I know a few E5 leaders who didn't flash it.

E

In reply to Enty:


fair comment all, I don't think I'm any good really, but Yosemite seems to strangely suit my climbing style somehow, so perhaps take anything that i say about it with a pinch of salt.
For perspective however, (I don't think SR is anywhere 12a personally); go and do SR and then have a crack at Tales of Power 12b, right underneath it. Now that would be solid E6, the '5.9' section at the top of it is hard enough!

In reply to Chris Craggs:

I'm having E4 6a for Matador, bridging isn't an option for short arses until near the end.

Exasperator at E2... If you take E1 5a for Yellow Spur, you have a deal.

In reply to jonny2vests:
>> Serenity Crack / Sons of Yesterday - E3 5c
>> Rosy Crucifixion - E1 5a

Serenity / Sons def E3 but nudging 6a IMHO
Bastille Crack I think VS4c
Rosy Crucifixion E2 5b but I really hate polish and man is that polished!

I'll add:

E. Butt of El Cap E25b
Casual Route on the Diamond E15b
Airy Interlude at Needles E2 5b
Comic Relief in Black Canyon of the Gunnison E25b

This is a good thread and mostly pretty sensible suggestions.

In reply to Mike Lewis:

Some East Coast climbs to redress the balance

Gunks
High Exposure - HS 4b
Higher Stannard - HVS 5a
Retribution - E1 5c
Ants Line - HVS 5b
MF - HVS 5b

Seneca
Crack of Doom - E1 5b
Solar - Vs 4a (maybe HVS 4a/4b?) I was fecking terrified.

Dacks
Gamesmanship - HVS 4c
Great Dihedral - E1 5a
Fastest Gun - E1 5b

In reply to Mike Lewis:

J-Tree:

EBGB's - E3 6a

Sidewinder - E2 5c

Papa Woolsley - E2 5c

Figures on a Landscape - E3 5c

E

In reply to Rich Kirby:

This is a joke right? HVS or E1 at a push!

Unless i suppose you have really small hands?

Trist

In reply to Mike Lewis:

I can't remember quite a few well enough but here goes some more mainly easier ones:

Yosemite

Just for Starters E1 5c
Sloth Wall VS 4c
Anti Ego Crack VS 4c
After 6 MVS 4b
Munginella HS 4b
Harry Daley VS 5a (spooky 4b traverse)
Monday Morning Slab S 3c
Grack VS 4b (crux slab)

Tuolumne

West Country VS 4c
Hermaphodite Flake (and boltway) S 4a (HVS 5a)
Great White Book VS 4b (take monster cams or a very bold offwidth section)
Galen's E2 5b (offwidth fun/horror)
West Crack HVS 5b
Fingertips E3 5c
Alimony Cracks VS 4c
Northwest Books (5.6R variant) HS 4b (HVS 4b)
Puppy Crack (cracks above) HS 4c (HVD 4a)
Hobbit Book HVS 4b
Shagadelic E1 5c
Holdless Horror HS 4b
Zee Tree VS 4c
Tenaya Northwest Buttress HVD 3c
Connes North Ridge (with abseils on 5.6 bits) VD 3b

In reply to Mike Lewis: Has anybody done Bishops Terrace & got a suggestion of UK grade? If Royal Arches is VS, I'm guessing it'd be HVS.

In reply to Mike Lewis:




In reply to Mike Lewis:
Really hard to translate the grades but here is my attempt

English Breakfast E25C
New Dimensions E35C
Crack a Go Go E46a
Outer Limits E25b
Butterballs E46a
Wheat Thin E25C
Catchy E25c
Catchy Corner E35C
Red Zinger E56a
Moratorium E46A
Sacherer Cracker E15B
Mark of Art E25C
The Good Book E35C
Serenety Crack E15c
Quicksilver E25b
Freewheeling E35C
Central Pillar of Frenzy E15B
Birchef Williams Pitch 1 E36a
Lunatic Fringe E35c
Oz Drug Dome Tuollome E36A
Nose & Salathe- Depends on the style you do them in but would deffo like to be leading E3/E4 ish

In reply to Mike Lewis:

Kor Ingalls (Castleton) E1 5a
North Face (Castleton) E3 5c
Fine Jade (Rectory, Castleton) E3 5c
Astro Elephant (Elephant's Perch, Idaho) E2 5c
Outer Space (Snowcreek wall, Cascades) E1 5b
Fairview west face (Tuolumne) E1 5b
Great white book (Tuolumne) E2 4c

I'll maybe think of a few more later.

This is potentially one of the most useful threads ever on UKC.
Maybe UKC could host a definitive list (until such time as the Americans come to their senses and adopt the UK grading system).

In reply to Smelly Fox:


I thought about E2 5b (a couple of baggy hand jams). A friend had to use fists and laybacks and thought E3 5c). Grades are of limited use in Indian creek - width in inches makes far more sense for many routes.

In reply to Matt Rees: This goes to show how hard it is to really compare grading systems. While I don't have a great deal of experience with UK grades---and most of what recent experience I have is with eastern grit, I am very familiar with the east coast routes discussed here (and a fair number of the western ones as well)and disagree with about 1/2 of the grades listed. But I guess we all need something to keep us busy instead of work....!!!!

In reply to Robert Durran: Surely you are mistaken! Great White Book is one of the finest V Diffs in creation.

In reply to alan moore:

Smeary sustained 4b/c looking at probable death if you fall is not V. Diff.
It's probably a grade or two harder than that smeary 5.6 (or was it 5.7) thing I backed off at Cathedral ledge (I think). Remember?

In reply to Alan Rubin: OK, here is an attempt at an East Coast list:
Gunks:
Shockley's VD 4b (2 tricky bulges with overhead protection,otherwise D)
High Ex VS 4c(1 tricky roof and pumpy- yes I'm a sap- 4b up the top wall)
Cathedral:
Still in Saigon VS 5a
Thin Air S
Toe Crack VS 4c
Standard HS4b
Kiddy Crack S4c
Fun House VS 4c
Whitehorse:
Pathfinder HVS 5b
Standard VS 4c
Mt Washington:
Pinnacle Ridge Direct VS 5a
Square Ledge:
Standard VD
Rainbow Slabs:
Perfect Wave VS4c
Tsunami S
Bartletts Cove:
Web HS 4a
Acadia:
Standard S
Story of O VS4b
Gunklandia HVS 5a
Old Town VS 5a
Green Mountain E1 5b
Morning Glory E1 5b
Morviana VS 4c
Overhanging Corner S4a
Child's Play VD

Work!!?

In reply to Robert Durran:

I'm with you, Robert - sort of. Great White Book was a bit of a shock as the first route of the trip a couple of years ago. Taking lack of acclimatisation into account I'd say VS 4a.

In reply to Robert Durran: Yes. To my shame. Whitehorse Ledge; where 5.2 is harder(and scarier)than Etive E2!

In reply to alan moore:

Was it Standard route on your list above?

In reply to alan moore: Better on the eastern routes. Though Shockley's at VD!!!! Sure it's mostly easy but the roof has a good bit more than VD commitment, and the upper corner and overhang is S by itself. I'd give it HS 4b. I agree with the top pitch of High E as VS, 4c as well as most of your NH and Maine grades. (it's been awhile since I did Still in Saigon maybe HVS?)

In reply to Robert Durran: No, Sliding Board, we moved onto Standard Route as an 'escape'.

In reply to CharlieMack: Yes very do able but it requires some skills you don't have eg aid and hauling. this is easily learn able. on the nose it's likely you'll french free till about half way then start full on aiding as it gets a lot steeper. put on your rock boots for the 10b pancake flake pitch above the great roof though

In reply to Alan Rubin: All of them were done in debilitating heat and humidity making it very difficult to judge...they all felt hard! Also did Damnation Gully one New Years Eve and found it equally hot and sweaty! (UK Grade III).
Maine ratings seem a bit tougher than NH on average?

5a for the Yellow Spur?! Maybe I was gripped by the exposure, but I thought the bit past all the pitons was pushing 5c.

Has anyone done Red Dihedral or 3rd Pillar of Dana?

In reply to Mike Lewis:

As I remember, the dihedral pitch of Red Dihedral gets 5.9 with a 10c finish. I thought the pitch as a whole was probably worth E3. Having a bad day? Maybe. Just a shame it was the only good pitch on the route.

In reply to Mike Lewis:

Yes. E2 5b/c perhaps? It's a while ago! Great route.

That reminds me: Eichorn Pinnacle west pillar (without direct start) HVS/E1 5b? Again, its a while ago.

In reply to Alan Rubin:
Totally agree although i put some E grades on my post above its a pointless exercise really on Yosemite routes as the style is completely diffferent. Pete Livesey once said the scary thing about UK routes is you do not know whats coming whereas in Yosemite the scary thing is you know exactly whats coming.

Best thing is to get out there try a few things and find your grade and enjoy it.

In reply to Robert Durran:
Grades are of limited use in Indian creek - width in inches makes far more sense for many routes.

Absolutely right!

In reply to Alan Rubin:

Agreed. Alan is saying vs 4c for high e but I can't think of a single trick move on it and the gear is bomber. It's just pumpy.

As for vd for shockleys, I'm with you, and actually find it trickier than hiigh e (I am crap at roofs though).

What are your guesses for the routes I graded? I'm intrigued.

In reply to Kipper-Phil Smith:
LF is rated 5.10c and ND is 5.11b or c. I guess I really don't understand this crazy English system but if New Dimensions is no harder than Lunatic Fringe I guess I'll go take a whack at it!

In reply to Robert Durran:


I think it probably would be about right. Did you do anything else there Rob? I thought Beckey Direct was worth maybe E3 6a - for its first pitch which is a boulder problem and is a lot harder than the rest of the route.

In reply to Smelly Fox:

I would agree, having spent a good 2 or 3 weeks climbing in IC, and other Utah cracks, i would struggle to give a Uk grade to any of the totally pure cracks. Things which involve a big more techy messing around are easier to give some sort of a ballpark figure for. I can remember few names, I'm afraid; but Supercrack is definitely a grade easier climbed drunk in a pair of crocs.

In reply to Toby Dunn:

A few weeks ago someone on UKC was asking how to get more hits for his YouTube climbing videos. Toby, I think you've just given him the answer.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Nope, not joking. Perhaps having just 4 pieces that fit the crack proper in 30m of climbing made it feel E3. Whichever, a stunning crack pitch.

In reply to Mike Lewis: what about centuary crack? Anyone done it?

In reply to Toby Dunn:

Are they really so different to their Yosemite equivalents? I never had any problems giving UK grades to Reed's Pinnacle, Lunatic Fringe, Crimson Cringe, etc.


Chris

In reply to Rich Kirby:
Haha! Yes that would definitely have it scraping E3!

Luckilly we'd teamed up with a local so was able to lace it.

Did you do The Incredible Hand Crack? I thought that even better than Supercack. That I'd give E3 probably, but it was a thinner crack for my fat hands!

In reply to Rich Kirby:

I think I put at least 3 Gold, 6 Blue and 2 Grey Camalots in Supercrack, you can't claim more E points, just because you didn't have the right gear!

In reply to Smelly Fox:

Perfect "Gold" hands for me - barely E2!

To complete the "must do" introductory trilogy to Indian Creek: Generic Crack E2 5b - definitely some awkward wider bit for anyone on it I think.

In reply to jon:

I did Astro Elephant in '95 and finally got back there in '08, but unfortunately and very frustratingly (a long story...) didn't get anything done. Brilliant place though and will be one of the first places on the list next time I do a summer road trip. Useful grade info on Beckey Direct. Did you do anything else?

In reply to Smelly Fox:

We did & I thought it easier than Supercrack. Fingers vs hands, horses for courses.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I'm not trying to claim more E points merely pointing out how it felt on lead. Remember the thread is about thoughts on UK grades for US classics. If our mutual friend, Fat bottomed Cottam was in these parts he'd have no doubt commented in a similar manner.

In reply to Rich Kirby:

Sorry - it was meant to be tongue in cheek. Anyway, best advice for Indian Creek is buy, borrow or steal silly numbers of cams, so protection isn't an issue.

In reply to Robert Durran:


Ah well now, when it comes to gear willy waving... I did Generic Crack with two no 3 Friends. (Didn't have anything bigger and nothing smaller fitted.) One had a broken trigger bar and was very iffy to place. Leapfrogged them as far as I could/dared, then went for the belay. Totally gripping.

In reply to jon: You need to be careful doing that on soft sandstone.

In reply to Robert Durran:

No, just those two. Might go back this September. Fine Line looks great... well, the first few pitches do. I think folks generally rap off then (I'm happy to be corrected on that - there was a team on it when we were on the Beckey D and that's what they did.) The next day they did Sunrise Dihedral (I think it's 'Sunrise'...?) which looks stunning - except, unfortunately, for the wide top pitch.

In reply to Offwidth:

Yep, you're right. Had no choice though. I was told by some hard looking woman at the bottom that if I didn't have eleven no 3's, I stood no chance. No backing down when that happens! This of course exposes the nonsense of Indian Creek. If you've got enough gear you can toprope the route on the lead. So, as Rich K implies, the E grade depends on the amount of gear you have.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS: I'd give Bishop's Terrace sustained HVS 5a. Superb. Probably the best single pitch route of our trip to Yosemite in 2010.

In reply to jon:

Ah Jon, that rare dent in your maturity is quite endearing! There's nothing like being arrogantly told you haven't a chance to get ones' hackles up.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:

Well it was 17 years ago, Mick. Got more sense now. But you're right, hackles were up.

In reply to jon:

You should have perhaps asked to borrow their cams. That seemed to be the norm when I was there (although our local partner had 3 or 4 racks of camelots anyway)!

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Yes, they are. The really pure Utah stuff makes most valley cracks look like some wibbly Stanage 'crack' with about 3 proper jams on it.
Plus Utah cracks tend to be steeper, more sustained but with better jams. Yosemite tends to the off vertical, and even on the slick granite there you end up smearing outside the crack a fair bit. In IC not so much, especially on the really hard shiny desert patina.

In reply to seankenny:

sadly a video does not exist. Still pictures for drunk fancy dress climbing at the creek in short shorts and hawian shirt, yes.

In reply to DaveHK:
Anybody able and willing to give a UK grade to Cruise Route or Scenic Cruise?

In reply to Enty: Could a steady E2/3 climber get up The Nose or Salathe Wall

In my experience your free climbing grade is not particularly helpful unless you climb 5.11 and are aiming for a one day ascent of the nose. We easily climbed the nose in 3 days aiding almost every pitch. It's all about getting your head in gear and moving at a reasonable speed. We warmed up on the prow and lurking fear which really helped..

With regard to indian creek: it is different to yosemite since the cracks are so uniform that hand size (and technique) makes a massive difference. Its the only place i've been where the girls climbed harder than the boys!! None of the girls we met would go anywhere near supercrack, they stuck to the 5.11s!! Supercrack definately gets baggy at the top unless you have big hands. I found incredible hand crack easier.

In reply to Andy Clarke: Yeah, it was my favourite single pitch in Yosemite too, and did feel more serious than any of the UK trad stuff I'd done, which wasn't much (although next time I'll take a number 4!!!).

In reply to heleno:

For Scenic Cruise, I'd have a stab at a softish E3 and probably 5c. But it was in 1996 and the bolts in the pegmatite band were the nastiest looking stubs of rust that I've ever tied off. I believe they may have been replaced now, and if so, it'd feel a fair bit easier... E2, perhaps? The lower crack pitches are well protected and not very hard. Not a great deal of help, eh?

In reply to jon:

Should the Gunnison be an "essential" venue for a road trip? Just to do Scenic Cruise? Time of year?

In reply to Robert Durran:

I don't think essential is the right word. It was 2 Oct 96 and we were in Rifle waiting for the weather to improve in the Tetons and just wanted a break from clipping for a few days. It's a great place but I think Scenic Cruise gets its reputation more from being an OK do-able route amongst a load of harder far more dangerous routes, than being an outstanding classic. Two days later we did the Exum Direct car to car, which was infinitely better.

In reply to Mike Lewis:
There seem to a lot of variation in the UK grades allotted by people here, so the US system may not be so bad after all!

Bastille Crack VS 4c (for P3; P1 is VS 4b)
Dyke Route E1/2 5a
South Crack VS 4c
Fairview Dome Regular Route HVS 5a (a short bit of 5a on P1)
Great White Book HVS 4a(without big cams)
Gobble Up, Turkey Rocks HVS 5a (Hen Cloud grade)

Most of the 5.9/5.9+ routes at Castle Rock (Curving Crack, Skunk Crack, etc.) at the top of Boulder Canyon are comparable with Stoney HVSs in the 1970s, i.e about E2!

In reply to Rob Davies:


Spot on with those four.


I thought it HS 4a, but then I soloed it!


Chris

In reply to Rob Davies:

"There seem to a lot of variation in the UK grades allotted by people here, so the US system may not be so bad after all!"

A point I made to to Robert Durran. Of course a lot of these differences are coming from people who are also very active in guidebook work. In addition the US system picks out VS 5b bold routes and VS 4a super sustained routes much more explicitly.

I still maintain sending UK VS leaders up that slab pitch on South Crack is asking for trouble, especially as the fall line goes over an overlap. I'd onsighted and led a few UK E2 5b slabs around the time and the anxiety wasn't far off for me as it's a long way to that ledge. It's only anything like a VS to climbers who are climbing way harder. Mick Ryan puts it down to grade disagreements on another thread but I say that relates more to 3PS being HVS or E1. The South Crack slab is clear top end HVS for me, easy moves for the grade but very serious, a good half grade or more harder than say Sunset Slab.

In reply to Offwidth:

I don't think the variation is a surprise for several reasons:

(1) The UK adjectival grade should represent a consensus and if this thread runs for long enough a consensus or average opinion on the grades may well be reached. I suspect that if we were just given a tech grade for UK routes without an imposed guidebook adjectival grade, there would be a lot of variation in opinion of the adjectival grade of UK routes - after all, different people find different styles of climbing easier (eg I would undoubtedly find an E3 slab harder than an E4 crack and might struggle to guess the consensus grade of both)

(2) Many British climbers are not too familiar with the styles of climbing predominant in the States, particularly in Yosemite and Tuolumne (ie pure cracks and slabs), so lack the experience to estimate the consensus grade accurately.

(3) Many of the grades given in this thread may be from hazy, distant memory (I know some of the ones I have given are).

In reply to Robert Durran:

Indeed, I had been out there a while and took Sherri up some 10a slab on Daff, E1 5b I gave it. The late great Paul Williams did it after me - fresh from the UK - E4 6b says he!


Chris

In reply to Robert Durran:

All applies equally to the US system.

In reply to Chris Craggs

Most JT 5.10a slab topropes I've done would be at least E2 5c. Some would be E6 6a (15m 6a moves no pro). Never come across a 5b 5.10a slab in JT yet.

In reply to Offwidth:

So? Not sure what you mean, or what point you are making.

In reply to Offwidth: Have you done Papa woolsey, right off the road in Hidden Valley CG--5.10b, seems 51, 5b to me,maybe even HVS.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

On that same trip, Paul joined H and me on the Pywiack Dome classic, Gold Bars, 11b I think. None of the many expletives that Paul uttered that day offered anything relating to a grade, UK or otherwise...

In reply to jon:

I led that in my old machine-made EBs!


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Me too!

In reply to Alan Rubin:

Nope but heard of it

Most hard (for us) Trs we did were in Indian Cove or in Wonderland. Usual climb a route, try something poorly protected next door before moving on. Plenty of 10bs felt like the living end to me, similar to hard UK 6a slabs. Moff loves it as she is way better on slabs than me but gets scared more easily. I remember one easier one in Indian Cove 'Noriega Does Panama' which is 10b I think and reasonably bolted, felt more like E2 5c. Moff onsighted that based on a locals tip (with intermediate 6a smears as she hates high rockovers).

In reply to Offwidth:

I vaguely remember that my partner dithered trying to lead the slab on South Crack so eventually I led it and couldn't see what his problem was - it's just a bit of padding.

If it's real sandbag slab grades you want try the South Platte crags in Colorado.

In reply to Rob Davies:

South Crack Slab is not a sandbag its a 12m padding section with no gear and a fall over a slab overlap with the normal grade for that. Yosemite 5.7R padding is normally HVS 4b/4c. The sandbag is saying its VS.

Anyway some more. Red Rocks this time (again the ones I remember well enough):

Jackass Flats HS 4b
Schaffers Delight HS 4b (a little devious to protect until you reach the first bolt, VS 4a start if you cant see it).
Lotta Balls HVS 5a (for a few metres of delictae pdding on knobs, mainly VS)
Doobie Dance HS 4b
Romper Room HS 4b
Solar Gully HVD
Jonny Vegas HS 4b
Going Nuts HS 4b
Solar Slab HS 4b
A combination of the last three (or first and third) must be the best HS climb in the world.
Geronimo HS 4b
Olive Oil VS 4c (Mostly HS 4b; short weird crux low down with tricams in pockets...not R rated if you get pro... HVS 4c if you don't)
Cat in the Hat HS 4a (S 4a to the white slab at the top).
Dark Shadows VS 4c (maybe VS 4a to start).
Heavy Spider Karma HS 4b (there are some easier graded climbs left of this that are sandbag graded take great care on these as they are all HSish and on snappy rock).
Peaches HS 4b (the easier variant is more serious HS 4a)
Tonto S 4a (but hard for this)
Ragged Edges HVS 5a (low in the HVS grade and unusual for Red Rocks in that it has some proper jamming; double up on blue and yellow camalots and big cam useful for steep bit where you outflank the crack)
Tunnel Vision VS 4b (the X chimney pitch on this has OK pro on the back wall).
Group Therapy HS 4b (shouldnt be R rated with monster cams)
Great Red Book VS 4c (easy for 5.8 and shouldnt be R rated really the 5.9 layback variation on the first pitch is the softest at the grade I've climbed in the US)
Physical Graffiti HS 4b (stonking, up there with the more famous lines)
Ghouls Just Wanna Have Fun HS 4b

In reply to Offwidth: On the subject of Red Rocks, has anyone done Epinephrine?

In reply to Mike Lewis:


Yes.

E1/2 in the top chimney's? 5.9 face above that, Elephent's trunk? Then a romp....HS/VS to the top.

About the same grade as Levitation 29!

In reply to chill54:
New Dimensions is 5 11a in the supertopo guide.

In reply to Kipper-Phil Smith:

But it's still (like way) harder than Lunatic Fringe.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC:

I though Lev 29 was way harder than E1/2. The crux is 60 odd feet of overhanging, slopey, flaring crack. But then I dogged it horribly and have no idea how I could ever grade it for the onsight.

Great climb though.

In reply to Mike Lewis:

Some more. Lover's Leap South Lake Tahoe this time, great place for UK climbers genrally good pro or much easier if runout; steep for the grade for granite, ace rock features.

The Line reputedly soft 5.9 (just HVS 5a) and I'd confirm if there wasn't always a queue.
Corrugation Corner VS 4b (wild top section on penultimate pitch: wow wow wow)
Haystack VS 4c (crux corner overlap)
Bears Reach MVS 4b
Surrealistic Corner VS 4c (high in both grades...tricky traverse just above start is better high for pro and moves. Again traverse on pitch 2 needs care to find an easy protectable line)
The Farce HS 4b (hard 5.6 not 5.5)
Its better with Bacon (rain stopped play but HS 4b for first 2 pitches take lots of small wires and microcams)
Knapsack Crack VD (way overgraded at 5.5)
Deception S 4a (top of both grades but not sustained like it says in some guides)
Harveys Wallbangers Centre VS 4b (delicate bold traverse at top of pitch 2 VS 4a; direct finish is 4b or easier off left; harder lead than Deception despite advice in guide)

In reply to Mike Lewis:

Hhmm interesting thread - off to consult guide books - I'll be back .........!

In reply to Matt Rees:

I cruised the crack crux, had more trouble on the face higher up...or was that a crack too. Shit, like Mr.Duran says, if its been a while you forget.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC:

From what I recall, there are two "crack" picthes, one low down (P2?) and then another longer one (P5), which is the crux. the guide says .11c. Obviously it's very safe, so no way E2. The tech grade is outside my 'ken, since I don't think I've ever climbed a route in the UK that hard!

As an aside, I think this route has my favorite walk in of any climb I've ever done. That's a thread in it's own right! Hold on a sec....

In reply to Mike Lewis:

Tuolumne
Stately pleasure Dome
Great White Book - HS
South Crack - HVS
Table of Contents - E2 5c,6a
Step it Up and Go - E2 5c

Daff
West Crack - HVS 5b,5a,5a,5b
Crescent Arch - E2, 4c,5c
Blown Away - not done it - looks amazing - anyone got a UK grade?

Lembert
Crying Time Again - E2 5a,4c,5b,5b,5b,5c
Direct Northwest Face - E2/3 4a,5b,5c,6a

Fairview
Regular Route - E1 (just) 5b,5a - etc
Lucky Streaks - E3 5b,5c,5c,5b,5a,4c

Pywiack
Dike Route - E3 5b (crux pitch)

High Sierra
Third Pillar of Dana - E1/2 - top two pitches 5c, 5b

In reply to Mike Lewis:

Third Pillar of Dana is one of the best days out I've had in the mountains.

Fantastic route - crux could be finding the thing and getting down a rotten ridge to the base.

The route is not too clear early on but builds to an amazing climax. I read a quote somewhere that the top pitch felt like lie backing up the front of a narrow skyscraper!

The top pitch is especially memorable and actually easier than it looks.

In reply to Offwidth: I've done about 1/3 of them and would concur with your grades, though I'd probably go with HVS on Surrealistic. Great place to climb, especially for routes in the moderate grades (though I guess everyone might have a different definition of "moderate")

In reply to Mike Lewis:

Hey, we've got enough projects on this thread already to be getting on with!

In reply to Mike Lewis:

Dream of wild turkeys: E2 5c, though it is really an E5, but with the bold bits bolted to become 6b+, leaving the easy bits as the hard bits - if you see what I mean. Good fun but, in the end, a rather unsatisfactory mess.

In reply to Alan Rubin:

Surrealistic is HVS on the first pitch if you follow the supertopo line. I,d done the steep sequence with 5a moves before, so tried moving up a bit, got gear and traversed a bit easier. Moff was similar on pitch 2 she preferred to go up to a peg, clip and traverse just below; the normal lower traverse is harder than advertised and scary. Climbed it twice now so done both of both sequences. The run-out top section is about VD but unprotected (ie very easy).

In reply to Enty:

Who's willy waving now?

And Rich Moratorium desperate E4 - aid points for me. And Toby you are comparing 10feet of gritstone esoteria which is now given E46b anyway with a 60foot route.

Sandbaggers the lot of you.

In reply to shark:

What do you think? it was 1994?

E

In reply to Enty:

<Sigh>

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=280005&v=1#x4149781

In reply to shark:

Whahey I'll take E4 then. Nice one.

E

In reply to Robert Durran: Talk to an Indian Creek local and they tend to grad routes by camalot colour. Supercrack being gold. I have big hands and having not slept for 28 hours (including a full hard day at work) and driven across country for 14 hours with only gas stops, I got out of the car and lead it and thought VS 4c or HVS 5a if you count the pedestal at the bottom. 4 gold cams for the crack, (It was all we had!)
Bastille Crack, VS 4b/c.
Snake Dyke VS 4b for the traverse pitch the rest was easier.

In reply to Mike Lewis:

Good thread, I think the problem with granite especially is if you are good at runout slabs or "face climbing" as they call it over there or sustained cracks then everything feels fine for the grade but most UK climbers aren't well versed in these styles so find them hard. Face climbs or more featured rock always feels more like UK trad. Here's some routes I've done:-

Regular Route Fairview agree with HVS 5b and only for first pitch, rest is mostly HS.
Lucky Streaks felt about E3 and long and sustained - did the top bit in the dark!
Oz also mild E3 but bolted crux so pretty soft, corner pitch is classic E1/2 trad action.
South Crack was terrifying for grade as crux slab move seemed to be last one before the belay! HVS 4b or E1 4c seems fair to me, not VS....
Eichorn's Pinnacle is a notable 5.9 sandbag - especially the wide crack section half way up - felt E1/E2 to me overall but was having a bad day..
Crescent Arch excellent E2 thin laybacking. Blown Away even better, hard to grade as key pitch is long, bolted, pretty bold but positive holds - E1 5a? Also good here is Bombs over Tokyo, perfect E1/E2 crack action (one pitch).
Third Pillar of Dana is great fun, and gets better as you get higher - E1 5b
Agree Yellow Spur is about E1 5b but quite tough and exposed in places.
Fishhook Arete on Mount Russell - HVS 5a and hard if not acclimatised!
Grand Wall E3/E4 6a and mega classic - especially with Cruel shoes start, nice mix of slab, crack climbing this way.
Great Game E3 6a great little route, very varied.
Angel's Crest E1 5b, possibly E2
Penny Lane classic one pitch HVS 5a
Squamish Buttress E1 5c (but only one tricky pitch at top)
Exasperator is E2 5c not E1 unless you have tiny hands, my mate with banana fingers couldn't get near it and he has lead E5!
Finally in east - High Exposure is world classic VS, Recompense pretty classic (tough) HVS 5a

That lot should keep you busy!

In reply to Mike Lewis:
Here's a list of classic trad routes in Red Rocks in Nevada.

Cat in the Hat 5.6+ HS
Olive Oil 5.7 VS 4c
Dark Shadows 5.8 HVS 5a
Rainbow Buttress 5.8+ E1 5b
Epinepherine 5.9 E1 5b
Dream of Wild Turkeys 5.10a E1 5b
Wholesome Fullback 5.10b E2 5c
Chicken Eruptus 5.10b E1/2 5b (E3 without the bolts)
Ricky Business 5.10c E2 5c
Fiddler on the Roof 5.10d E3 5c
Pro Choice 5.11a E2 6a
Warrior 5.11a E3 5c
X-15 5.11a E4 6a
Delicate Sound of Thunder 5.11b E4 6a
Levitation 29 5.11c E3 6a
Drifting 5.11c E4 6a/b
Spring Break 5.11d E4/5 6a
Cloud Tower 5.11d E4 6b
Rainbow Wall 5.12a E4 6b
Gotham City 5.12a E5 6a
Dying Breed 5.12b E6 6b
Buffalo Soldiers 5.12c E6 6b
Atmospheres 5.12d E6/7 6c
Desert Gold 5.13a E6 6b
The Unsung 5.13b E7 6c

In reply to shark:


I thought Moratorium was alright, maybe you need to be able to use your feet ok eh?
...and the actual meat of SR is probably about 25ft of horizontal innit - not an issue to climb up to the start of the roof. But you may be right anyway!

In reply to shark:

Its not intentional Simon, honest Its funny how you find things. Earlier someone said great white book was VD, well its the scariest VD I've ever done!! When things are built up a little I usually find them ok (e.g. Moratorium) & then of course when your a little blase you often get taken down a peg or two( e.g. GWB).

I forgot about Figures on a Landscape, what a route....but yes perhaps a little pokey for E3.

In reply to Rich Kirby:

By the way - for anyone who is reading this. If you climbed FOAL sometime in April in 1994 with a random Brit you found on the campsite please get in touch. It would be nice to catch up. I remember you took some photos too.



E

In reply to Mike Lewis: My ascent of Snake Dyke, though thought-provoking but otherwise technically straightforward, was also one of the scariest routes I've done. Long runouts and sometimes being reliant on rusty old bolts (if memory serves: one 50mtr pitch was protected by only 3 such bolts), coupled with 'getting-very-polished' holds. I would be interested in hearing what others thought of it - definitely not VS 5a, which implies a technical but safe VS. I think the US grade was 5.7 which of course tells you nothing - even the first pitch has a bone crunching crux on polished holds. Was thinking more like VS 4b, though with the polish maybe some of the moves are harder know, so a 4c deserves a non-pumpy, but awkward and sustained runout grade of HVS 4c which totally contradicts 5.7!

In reply to redjerry: think you're spot on with Olive Oil, Dark Shadows, Rainbow Buttress (which I loved more than the others), and Epinephrine. Would add Johnny Vegas (possibly 5.6 or 5.7 @ HS 4b, Frogland 5.8 @ Vs 4c, and Crimson Chrysilis 5.9 @ E1 5b (though the crux was defo the abseils - got ropes caught on "dinner-plates" on several pitches, and took longer than the actual climbing), and Prince of Darkness 5.10c @ F6a+. Can't wait to get back there...

In reply to hatman:

Snake Dike is definitly VS 5a ish now. All new bolts with twin bolt belays every 30m or so. 5a crux padding right next to a bolt on the pitch traversing up to the dike. The crux is short but deserves 5.8 IMHO. The first pitch grade is wrong in the the opposite direction. Crimson Chrysalis is 5.8 in all the guides...are you saying thats wrong?

In reply to hatman:

5.7 is around 4c.


Chris

In reply to Chad123:

My thougts were E2, but I think it was a very hot sweaty day and there was a stoned dude trying to solo past us on the crux pitch (he had warmed up by snorting something throug a snowball at the foot of the route) which freaked me out a bit.

In reply to Andy Clarke:

although I agree, it's a brilliant route, and VS or HVS 5a fits nicely, isn't Bishop's Terrace 3 pitches? Usually climbed as two cos many opt not to continue on to the messier 3rd pitch?

In reply to Chris Craggs: totally agree that 4c is top end of the 5.7 grade, Chris, but wondered whether translating 5.7 into HVS would be rejected

In reply to Offwidth: wow sounds a savage re-bolt of Snake Dike! Is it still good with all that metal work? No not suggesting the guide grade wrong for Crimson Chrysalis just that my memory sucks and with the added intensity of the perilous adseil drama, my reality of the route has probably distorted somewhat. I do remember being outfoxed for a while on the last or second-to-last pitch (a slabby thing). Would love to go back and do it properly so I can remember the day fondly instead of the mess it was

In reply to Mike Lewis:

Anybody care to have a go at grading Braille book? I found it pretty tough and was going well at the time. The obviously fallen on bent peg led me to believe others had found it tough too! E1 5c?

In reply to Mike Lewis: to help you with your question about Yosemite 5.9/5.10's, I would thorougly recommend the East Buttress of Middle Catheral, in the Valley. I've done all 3 variations and each is sublime climbing. The Warren Harding option is graded the easiest, though is closer to E1 5a than the (I think 5.7) grade suggests. The 5.9 bolt ladder option might get a straightforward HVS 5a, while the 10b or c option would be fun E2 5b/c. Another superb route is Commitment at 5 Open Books area. I think graded 5.9 I'd expect most people would feel solid HVS or maybe E1. Jam Crack is another wonderful route at what I think was called Sunnyside Bench (between 5 Open Books and Royal Arches) with an HVS 5a second pitch. Super Crack was in approx the same area @ maybe HVS 5b. Just for the recommendation (I haven't done it though it was on my list) Braille Book is supposedly a stupendous 5.8. If while on your trip you're climbing all these with ease, give Stoner's Highway a bash. Sparsely bolted 5.10c (I think) slab climbing, augmented with rack and really hard to convert (somewhere around 5c moves on a couple of pitches, quite runout) could be E3 but this might not describe some of the runout well enough... And you shouldn't go to Yosemite without doing Nutcracker VS 4c or HVS 4c depending on your choice of finish - do the awkward runout crack - it's the classic big balls finish.

In reply to hatman:

I thought Stoners was E4 at least.

E

In reply to hatman:

Bishop's Terrace: We climbed it in one long pitch with double 60m ropes. This was to the top of the superb double cracks. As far as I know, nowadays that's the end of the route and you ab back down. Climbing with 50's you'd need to do it in two.

Snake Dike: I thought VS 5a was fair (in 2010), given that there's reasonable bolting on the slabby pitch 3. Feels boldish, but not terrifying. On pitch 1, you can avoid the worst of the polish by placing high gear, then stepping down a bit to traverse. What a fantastic day out. And we just made it back in time for the all you can eat buffet at Curry Village!

In reply to hatman:
I agree about Commitment: great route, but felt like E1 to me on the top pitch. And Nutcracker is one of the most enjoyable routes I've done; so much variation packed in.

In reply to Enty:

I'd agree with that. I failed to follow it in 1978... but I did solo Snake Dike the same week and thought it was a VS (with a long walk-off).

In reply to 1poundSOCKS: This is making me feel old. Hazy memory suggests it's about VS or HVS.

In reply to hatman: Yes, E Buttress of Middle Cathedral is great. E Buttress of Lower (or was it Higher) Cathedral Peak (actually it might be NE Buttress - can't rememeber) was also very good. Again, hazy memories but I think this has a long, tough, 'd'hedraawl' pitch which is kind of E1 ish, maybe.

In reply to fatboyblim:

Tend to agree with that comment. It's all a question of getting the hang of aiding and jugging and then keeping your head together and realising that you can just keep chugging upwards if you want to, that you're never more than a metre from gear, that pretty much every placement is totally bomber, and that you only really have to worry about a catastrophic error or someone shitting on your head . It's the scale of the enterprise that shuts people down (and bad luck with weather I suppose). I can actually remember the Triple Direct, which I think has fewer steady free pitches than Salathe or the Nose but is of comparable difficulty. I think I was knocking off Yosemite 5.10s pretty steadily and easy 5.11 with difficulty at the time but just aided things like the Pancake Flake as it always seemed hard work to switch styles and we were in cruise mode. In the unlikely event of a return before decrepitude it would be awesome to do El Cap in a day for the feeling of blasting up such a massive piece of rock but if you're going to haul then I recommend spending five or six days up there - best days on rock, ever: don't rush them!

In reply to matt perks: Oh yeah, and definitely do something smaller to get into the aiding thing - Washington Column and Leaning Tower were the ones I did and they were good choices.